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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2004 :  02:14:24  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The Realms is people (characters) and THEIR STORIES, not stats -- and not merely their bedchamber preferences, either.


Hear, hear




Let me just clarify a little why I asked about sexuality in the Realms. I didn't ask about it because I want to stick sex scenes into things I write, or because I was overly interested in the sexualities of important NPCs. A person or character is the full sum of their experiences. Knowing how their world works is an important part of portraying a character - if the world is rather intollerant of homosexuality, a young gay character will have issues with hiding their identity from the world around them.... While a young gay character in a totally tollerant society will not have the same issues. It might not be the be all and end all of what the character is about, but it really does have an impact. I guess I'm not saying anything new for the writers here.

Also, I wanted to have more detailed information so that I can show some people that the Realms are much more tollerant than they believe it to be. For some reason, certain people have the impression that homosexuality is no more tollerated there than it is here, and further some even seem to equate the alignment LG with a judeo-christian moral structure. This is simply because none of what you've said about homosexuality (or sexuality in general) in the Realms has filtered through to print, Ed. There are hints, but you have to be a dedicated Realms fan to find them. While some BG2 fans are Realms fans as well, not all of them are.

So the information I have garnered here is going to be used to shape how certain NPCs react to a Relationship/Romance mod I'm writing (for Viconia from BG2). It's important since the relationship is between two female characters - but the fact that Viconia is a) a drow, and b) is evil, and c) is a priestess of Shar, will also be important factors shaping how the other NPCs react to the relationship. (It is more actually complicated than that, since Viconia's story ultimately becomes one of redemption for good PCs... but hey... there you go.)

I wonder if you're aware of the existance of this page: The Complete Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge: On Sex and Sexuality in the Realms? (They don't exactly name names, but it's obvious where they're talking about.)

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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Josh Davids
Seeker

57 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2004 :  09:45:43  Show Profile  Visit Josh Davids's Homepage Send Josh Davids a Private Message
Been meaning to reply to this thread since the question was asked by Ed.

To me it really doesn’t matter, if a story delves into an intensely descriptive sex seen I barely bat an eye as long as it fits with the story or some way into it. If it is just put in there to raise eyebrows and the pulse and adds not a single thing to the story then no.

I am the same way with blood, gore, and violence as well. if it adds to the story then go for it.

When I read a book or a story I leave my personal beliefs out the moment the cover is opened and the first word registers in my mind. I read a book for a story not to reinforce my beliefs or challenge them, I just want the tale told as believable as possible. In fact I rarely see that in many novels, I see a character take on fifty other creatures and come out of the fight without a single drop of blood on them to me that isn’t believable but I know about drawing the lines, and sadly sometimes it has to be done. I still have the strong desire to see the real Manshoon as mentioned before by THO, after you said he made you shudder I would give an arm and a leg to see what he is really like unedited or toned down but that is just me.

Personally I would rather it be as real as possible and not edited but that isn’t the world we live in sad enough to say.

The world I am creating deals with sexuality the same way Ed does in the FR, so as you can imagine I have no problem with it what so ever.

I just wonder what people feel is truly off limits in stories, topics that might be brought up or things that happen to characters or the decisions they make. I wonder this just because some of the stuff I bring up in the characters I create or stories I write about, I know a lot of them would be considered taboo by many readers or just too dark to write about. And I know many of the character histories wouldn’t be considered typical fantasy genre.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29653 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2004 :  01:09:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf

Well met!

All the recent talk got me wondering ... is it Lathander with a soft th, or Lathander with a hard th? Seriously.


According to Faiths & Avatars, it's pronounced Lah-THAN-der. So I'd say it's a soft th, as in "the".

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Bruce, I’m fine, thanks -- and hello right back! I’m sure Karth and Wooly will be happy to know that I’m as bare as usual, curled up in front of my keyboard with a mug of warm green tea and a tankard of cold mint lemonade within easy reach, taking alternate sips and happily remembering adventuresome moments in the Realms. Wooly still has hold of the other end of my leash, as I recall, but I’m afraid I was just kidding about the piercings. The near end of said leash ends in clamps, yes, but piercings, no. Which is probably more than enough teasing detail for some scribes.


And I've no intention of releasing such a lovely captive -- unless she can convince me too, of course.

quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack

quote:
So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you?



I'm not sure I have a line of comfort. My comfort comes with the question, "Is this descriptive scene of sexuality adding something to the tale or is it just there for shock effect?"


Once more, I must agree with our Sarcastic Scribe. I've read a few fantasy tales that included sex, and though I may not have been comfortable with some of the practices, they added to the tale. On the other hand, I've read tales that included sex scenes that added nothing to the tale -- and to me, actually detracted from it (Stephen King readily comes to mind).

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Sep 2004 01:16:10
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2004 :  02:23:15  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Once more, I must agree with our Sarcastic Scribe.



You're just saying that because you missed me. But, if I must confess, I missed you too. Sarcastic Scribe....I think I found my custom title if MORs ever get that option.

quote:

On the other hand, I've read tales that included sex scenes that added nothing to the tale -- and to me, actually detracted from it (Stephen King readily comes to mind).



Come to think of it, when it comes to sexual scenes that I read and felt didn't help the story in some way, King also is someone I would probably choose. Apologies if any of his fans disagree and it has been some time since I read any of his work.
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Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2004 :  16:52:57  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message
Hooded One: I am indeed disappointed that there was no fetching lass cuddled in your lap. However you were apparently naked, on the bright side, and it would appear by your own confessions that your lap has been so occupied in times past. Thus, I am suitably mollified by your delightfully bisexual nature... *chuckle*

Ed: I would draw a clear distinction between sex scenes, as such, and the depiction of clearly romantic scenes between characters. It is obviously not strictly necessary to give us all the ribald details if your only point is to express the romantic love that exists or develops between two characters, whether they be straight, bi, or gay. Venturing into film here, Han Solo and Princess Leia fell quite memorably in love on camera in Episode V without exchanging much more than a couple of fairly chaste kisses and a whole lot of heated discussion. The same can arguably be said of Xena and Gabrielle. For my money, it is the emotional content and our affection for the characters that hits home, not the gory details. For an obscenely crappy attempt at this in yet another SW film, witness the cringe-worthy travesty that is Anakin and Padme in "Attack of the Clones"...

Having said that, I agree with the general consensus that the decision must reside with the author/director on whether or not an explicit scene is rightly called for. If it makes sense and advances the story, then bring on the kiss and tell in full glory, by all means. Further, if it illuminates the basic principles, mentality and methods of a character, as would be the case with both Alustriel and Storm: bring it on. I'm willing to give an author I already enjoy and trust (YOU, in other words) a whole lot of leeway on that score. I don't even object to rape scenes, if they are obviously needed to provide a driving motivation for a particular character or part of a story.

However, if it is obviously gratuitous and intended to pointlessly grab attention, I hereby thumb my nose in it's general direction... ;)

Eh... definitely leave the kids and non-sentient animals alone though. Without tempting a flame war on the subject of religion and sex, let's just agree that such things are plain creepy and to be clearly avoided.

Regards and Thanks,

Karth

****************************
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Bruce Donohue
Learned Scribe

Canada
129 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2004 :  17:34:55  Show Profile  Send Bruce Donohue a Yahoo! Message Send Bruce Donohue a Private Message
Greeting fair maiden THO and greetings to you as well Ed.

My question is in regards to the Monks at Candlekeep and the wonderful intro you provided for this site.

Just curious, how long could a Master Read be abscent from Candlekeep before he or she is no longer considered part of the Avowed, or is it once an Avowed, always an Avowed.

For example: If a Master Reader left Candlekeep and searched for various knowledge and tomes, and being a longer lived race, doesn't officially return to Candlekeep for some time, oh lets say 100 years. During that time though, various tomes, scrolls, etc... have made their way to Candlekeep with a sigil that represented the Master Reader member.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2004 :  15:02:13  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Well met again, Bruce. I bring you these words from Ed:

Once an Avowed, always an Avowed (unless all of the senior monks [or if you are the black sheep, all except you] cast you out, which has normally only been done for book thieves, book destroyers, and individuals who ‘got in’ disguised in order to change writings, hide writings, or do harm to fellow ‘Learned’). In other words, mere absence from Candlekeep has no effect at all on one’s status. It should be noted, however, that under NO circumstances can off-site monks get writings from Candlekeep sent to them. Letters from fellow monks containing requested information, yes; original tomes or copies of any spell or magical lore, no.

And there you have it, from The Loremaster himself. Who hopes to resurface soon.
THO
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2004 :  00:03:24  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

Well, here is another question I'm curious about.

How do surnames work in the Realms? Are they matrilineal? Patrilineal? (And if they're Matri or Partilineal, what is the reasoning?) Chosen by mutual agreement between two people being married? chosen at adulthood? Are they mutable (ie: do they change as the person bearing the name decides)? Or do they really only matter for nobility, and if so, which of the above (if any) applies to them?

I know, for example, that the surname of the Royal House in Cormyr seems to follow whoever is ruling at the time (this must be the case, since they're still bearing the Obarskyr name). What happens when Alusair decides to get married (if she ever does)? Does she take the name of her husband? Or would her husband take her name?

Also on Cormyr... Is the line "first born rules" or "first son rules, and daughters only rule if there is no son, or the son(s) is(/are) proven incompetent?" (From the Cormyr: A Novel, the latter seemed to be the rule at some point in Cormyrian history - has this changed?)

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2004 :  01:31:36  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message
Since I've done some work on this in the past, I can answer the surname question, at least to some degree.

Surnames can come from a number of sources, and depend on the nation and culture; surnames can come from either the husband or wife, a combination of the two names. In most cases, however, surnames are only significant for official matters, such as nobility.

Specifically for the nobility of Cormyr, the rule is essentially this: men retain their own surnames, but women only do so when their own family name is of lower status than their husbands', or when they stand no chance of inheriting a family title. To use Alusair as an even more specific example, she will always have the right to refer to herself as Alusair Nacacia Obarskyr, and will likely be called than until she dies. She may also adopt the surname of her husband (though this isn't likely), but her husband will never be called Obarskyr. For another example, look at Laspeera Naerinth, who is also Laspeera Inthre (her husband's surname), and can call herself whichever she likes, or Lady Eveningspire (after the lands Azoun granted her).

Children are named by their parents, and the names they possess depend, again, on the titles involved. Sons of noblemen always carry their father's names at birth, but those surnames might be changed on the assumption of an inheritence or being named an heir. Sons of noblewomen carry whichever title they might actually inherit--Alusair's children will carry the surname of their father so long as Azoun's line survives, but Azoun himself was never Azoun Cormaeril; he was always Azoun Obarskyr, since he was an heir to the throne.

Cormyr is not a strict primogeniture--elder women can inherit titles in favor of younger brothers--but the tendency is still to assign titles to sons rather than daughters. If the first born child is a son, there's no debate: he is the heir apparent. If the first born is a daughter, however, all manner of discussion occurs as to whether she should inherit, or a younger brother, or even a younger daughter (as was the case between Tanalasta and Alusair).

I hope this makes sense. I've internalized a lot of the information, so if I'm babbling (or wrong, as Ed may well point out) please forgive me.
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
152 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2004 :  10:34:28  Show Profile Send Gerath Hoan a Private Message
As we're on the subject of Cormyr, and Garen Thal, your eyes are turned towards this thread as well... can i ask where i can find the Highknight prestige class? I've seen it in the write up of Storm Silverhand's circle of agents and companions on the official Realmslore page, but i've never seen the class itself in full detail. I do have a vague recollection that someone mentioned it was in an issue of Dragon, and if that's true can anyone tell me how to get hold of that back issue here in the UK? Or can my ultimate wish be granted and the class posted on here? Or does that breach some law or other?

Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29653 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2004 :  15:51:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan

As we're on the subject of Cormyr, and Garen Thal, your eyes are turned towards this thread as well... can i ask where i can find the Highknight prestige class? I've seen it in the write up of Storm Silverhand's circle of agents and companions on the official Realmslore page, but i've never seen the class itself in full detail. I do have a vague recollection that someone mentioned it was in an issue of Dragon, and if that's true can anyone tell me how to get hold of that back issue here in the UK? Or can my ultimate wish be granted and the class posted on here? Or does that breach some law or other?



Yes, it was in an issue of Dragon Magazine -- Annual number 5. You could see if the Paizo website has it available as a back issue, though I think it unlikely. Your best bets are to check any FLGS, and see if they have back issues, or to hit eBay. As for posting it here, that would be a copyright infringement, and the last thing we need is an infestment of lawyers.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2004 :  16:15:15  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

As for posting it here, that would be a copyright infringement, and the last thing we need is an infestment of lawyers.



Correction my Wooly friend. Generally, it's consider an infestment when the lawyers are on our side. When they are on someone elses, its an infestation.

Grendel's Mamma's Daddy

"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29653 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2004 :  17:22:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

As for posting it here, that would be a copyright infringement, and the last thing we need is an infestment of lawyers.



Correction my Wooly friend. Generally, it's consider an infestment when the lawyers are on our side. When they are on someone elses, its an infestation.

Grendel's Mamma's Daddy



Whoops, my bad. I knew that word didn't look right.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Faraer
Great Reader

3291 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2004 :  18:07:33  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
The idea of a kind of content being 'gratuitous': our-world violence is gratuitous, irrational, uncalled-for, unnecessary, without reward, and so in fiction with an even minimal mimetic purpose it's almost impossible for fictional violence to be. Prudery and self-censorship, however, is often gratuitous. (And love is sometimes violent, and violence has no restraint, as we know from Swans.) That's a senseless discourse because it takes an unviolent, unsexual world as a norm, following on recent traditions of Bowdlerization of adult and children's literature, associating reduced versions of fairy-tales with children. 'Importance to the story' has been a cover for reaction enough times that I expect cant when I hear it.

My tastes are usually away from anatomical descriptions of either sex or fighting. But a two-minded world with aspects it can't show is unhealthy as such minds are. The confusion Zandilar's seen in some people shows the difficulties of that (which is a wider problem with the Realms than the sexuality) and also of sources not asserting the 'Realms isn't Earth' principle consistently and surely. That said, of course, language can't deliver a story's implied or explicit worlds literally and transparently, and some such torque is part of fictional modes, of sword and sorcery as a whole and of the Realms' mode(s) in particular; and art always works by showing *and* hiding (figure and ground, Gestalt psychology, etc.).

Edited by - Faraer on 16 Sep 2004 18:09:27
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2004 :  16:03:24  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Well met again, fellow scribes.

Beowulf, Wooly (and Wooly, regarding the leash, I promise to start convincing you in my own arch manner the moment time affords) is as right as usual: Lathander has a “soft h”
Karth, I’m glad you’re suitably mollified. :}
Zandilar, Garen Thal did a very good job of answering you re. Cormyr. I bring you these words of Ed as a backup:


Garen is eloquently correct, as usual. Regarding the crown passing to royal sons versus daughters, the official rule is eldest progeny regardless of gender, but what has always happened in ‘real life’ in Cormyr is eldest progeny UNLESS other legitimate (no ‘bastard’) offspring are far more popular with other Obarskyrs and to a lesser extent powerful and influential nobles. (In truth, the support of the War Wizards, in particular the Royal Magician, play a large part in successions, because they can and have used magical means to make various Obarskyrs seem other than they are, or sickly, or untrustworthy (or even treasonous), or even to eliminate undesirable heirs . . . without, in almost all cases, the general public being aware that they’re doing so.)
To tackle your specific questions in order, many folk (who don’t own land in areas where land has a monetary value, such as cities, or who don’t hold family titles, ranks, or wealth) in the Realms don’t have surnames. Others have ‘bestowed by the neighbours’ surnames (e.g. Barakh the Smith, Ruldar of the Grove). A large number were ORIGINALLY chosen by mutual agreement between two persons getting married, but are ‘set’ by about four generations (i.e. everyone involved is used to them and proud of them, and would never think of changing or dropping them unless marrying into money or acquiring a title elsewhere).
As for folks marrying into other families, in some places (Tharsult, Altumbel, Priapurl, Glister, Rashemen, Sossal) they’re matrilineal, in others (Cormyr, Sembia, Waterdeep, Amn, Tethyr) patrilineal, yet even in these places there are exceptions.
And many, many people in the Realms (particularly adventurers) take another name if they establish new lives elsewhere. So, yes, they ARE mutable. And to a large extent, yes, they only matter to nobility - - and both the formal and informal rules governing nobility vary from realm to realm (something I very much hope we can cover in depth in future Realms releases).

So there you have it!
More later, but I’ll be e-silent this weekend (and so, of course, will Ed). Fare thee well, until next!
THO
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TheHermit
Seeker

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2004 :  12:08:43  Show Profile  Visit TheHermit's Homepage Send TheHermit a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you?

Dunno about Realms fiction, but this forum has certainly pegged my "TMI Meter" lately.

- "Glitz & Klax's Potions & Elixirs"/"The Sandmen", Inside Ravens Bluff, The Living City; 1990; TSR, Inc.
- "The Far Guardians' Traveler's Mission", Port of Ravens Bluff; 1991, TSR, Inc.
- "Signs Painted", Polyhedron #70; April, 1992; TSR, Inc.
- Communications Director, Coliseum of Comics, Orlando, FL - http://coliseumofcomics.com/
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2004 :  19:05:30  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
Hi Ed,

Ksu_bond is wondering if either you or THO can supply any details about omlar gems? They are mentioned on page 157 of the FRCS in the Omlarandin Mountains.

Kuje's text: I looked in the FRCS gem section and the FR Adventures gem section but neither book has those gems listed.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2004 :  00:51:37  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31

Hi Ed,

Ksu_bond is wondering if either you or THO can supply any details about omlar gems? They are mentioned on page 157 of the FRCS in the Omlarandin Mountains.

Kuje's text: I looked in the FRCS gem section and the FR Adventures gem section but neither book has those gems listed.



That's because I made them up for LANDS OF INTRIGUE. Look to the Omlarandin mountain range of Tethyr for info on omlars (including the regional variant name for displacer beasts as omlar-cats). Don't recall how much info I left therein about it, but lemme check....here it is...

" The name Omlarandin is a pidgin Tethyrian word that means, depending on context, "sparkling," "mysterious," or "magical." It is actually a corruption of the dwarven olaramorndin, or "magical peaks." The name (in all contexts) refers to rock crystals found within the hills and mountains here. Once thought to be light-colored emeralds but proven to be too soft (closer in hardness and color to aquamarine), the "omlars" were found to be compatible with magic and easily absorbed enchantments. While few omlars have been discovered in centuries, there are still a few that are found, and these precious stones fetch incredible sums from wizards in Saradush, Duhlnarim, Llorbauth, and Zazesspur (price rising with distance)."

And because we haven't exchanged any in a while (if ever), a flurry of lascivious looks, kisses, random hugs, and much laughter to THO and Eddie! I'll let y'all decide amongst yourselves how to divide those up.

Steven
who wonders if Ed's ever managed to transfer all his books yet from the old office to the new one in the house....?

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2004 :  01:03:23  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
Thanks Steven. :) And to Ed and THO as well for spending so much time answering our flood of questions!

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 22 Sep 2004 01:09:17
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2004 :  14:53:49  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Dearest Steven,
Ed and I send likewise back to you, copiously. Ed wants you to know he’ll be at a gaming convention (Phantasm, in Peterborough, Ontario) this weekend, and so won’t be available once again (and has a houseguest during the weekend and week after that, and family visiting the week after THAT), but is happy and busy (surprise), although he’s running into increasing NDA problems when developing some of the long-awaited lore answers for scribes here at Candlekeep.
Thanks very much for the omlar reply, and here’s a tidbit for all: Filfaeril has some secrets from her past involving senior nobles of the realm, and Azoun has a daughter (not by her) among the ranks of the hitherto-in-print-faceless junior War Wizards. Food for thought, but be warned that I’ll say no more (because Ed’s told me no more, and with a grin tells me he won’t, either).
Bright banners to all,
THO
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Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2004 :  18:38:25  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message
THO:

Do you happen to know if Ed is planning to attend GenCon So Cal?

How about yourself?

-Karth
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FoolishOwl
Acolyte

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2004 :  19:40:15  Show Profile  Visit FoolishOwl's Homepage Send FoolishOwl a Private Message
I wanted to thank Ed of the Greenwood and The Hooded One for their many, very interesting posts in this thread, but especially for that long, detailed response to Zandilar's questions.

When I was around twelve or so, I read a lot of Arthurian romances, with all those stories of knights and ladies dying of longing for each other, without ever realizing their mutual love. Those stories appealed to the lonely little boy I was at the time, but there was a shortcoming: they didn't show any way out of that loneliness.

I read Tolkien's The Hobbit a dozen or so times, then read The Lord of the Rings. These days, I often hear how Faramir was a dull, flat character, but I think that misses the symbolic role he took in the story -- that he was a model of a certain sort of personality. Anyway, I really admired Faramir. He was courageous, and smart, and understood what really mattered. He was, in short, the sort of person I could imagine wanting to become. And, I really admired Eowyn.

So, when the two of them fell in love, and kissed each other on the battlements, it affected me in a way that no other "love story" I'd encountered before had affected me. When I read the description of that kiss, chaste a description as it was, I felt the first thrill of the erotic that I can remember ever feeling. And it came in a story about two characters that I admired, falling in love, and proceeding to create a life together.

This was, in short, a big deal for me. And I'd grown up with a television set, depicting all sorts of love stories that had never meant anything to me. But Tolkien was different, because it was the kind of story I loved, and characters that were meaningful to me.

We're creatures of stories. Our memories are narratives that we revise and retell to ourselves, and we're forever seeking new stories, to suggest ways in which we can live our lives.

Why do I bring all this up? Because somewhere, there's some thirteen-year-old boy, much like me, only he's just starting to realize he likes other boys. He deserves the same thing I had: a story with someone he can imagine becoming, falling in love and finding happiness. What matters is the characters, not the full details of their lovemaking: a kiss can be enough to tell the story.
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Faraer
Great Reader

3291 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2004 :  20:48:23  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
Very well said. Fiction (including roleplaying games) is a play space where people can audition personalities and ideas which they may reject or grow into; our ideas of what the world is like and what people are supposed to be is hugely influenced by cultural factors, and we're better off if that culture includes elements of real poetry that are worth aspiring to. David Gemmell has spoken of when he saved someone from a mugging because he realized the heroes of The Lord of the Rings would have done so too. I was comparably affected (just a few years older) by Vanye and Morgaine in C.J. Cherryh's novels.* Commercial decisions of book editors -- such as omitting or concealing gay characters -- that we adults can deal with and work around are not so harmless for children.

* published as The Morgaine Saga (omnibus of the first three) and Exile's Gate -- they belong on every list of 'standard fantasy'.

Edited by - Faraer on 22 Sep 2004 20:49:58
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2004 :  17:08:28  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Thank you, FoolishOwl and Faraer, for those last two posts. VERY well said, both of you (and Ed and I both agree with your literary opinion of the Morgaine books, Faraer). Ed has told me that he often did foolhardy but noble things, as a very young lad, because that’s what characters he admired in books would do (standing up to bullies, facing down adults who were lying or blustering; that sort of thing . . . big stuff for a shy, bookish young boy to dare to attempt). A few years back, he mentioned that to me in the context of a movie we saw together, EXCALIBUR. Two simple lines from Patrick Stewart’s character took him back to those noble moments of youth, being scared but ‘knowing’ he was doing the Right Thing: “I saw what I saw. The boy drew the sword!” (Those familiar with the film will know the scene, and understand.)
Also, to Karth: sorry. Neither Ed nor I can make GenCon So Cal. Ed has three books and a stack of short stories and web columns to write by mid-December, and I have a similarly heavy editorial workload (textbooks, blech, no less).
Sigh. We’ll just have to get together for a game and console each other, I guess.
THO
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2004 :  17:28:26  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message
Hail!

Not to play holy roller or dis upon fictional heroes, which seem all that 21st century man finds himself left with, but this is one of the things that the stories of our heritage are suposed to provide us with. Whenever I did or do "bold" things formeost in my mind were the actions of my father or grandfather, the sacrifices they made, or perhaps did not make, and also broader cultural heroes like Beowulf "and" Bjarki, or Wiglaf, or Waldere, or Hrolf Kraki, or Penda or Alfred.

And while I have only mentioned those heroes most apparent to a straight young man, there are also plenty of women heroes ... beginning with ones mothers and aunts and ancestress and continueing on to women, some of whom Christian historians my have left without names, but whose deeds were substantial nevertheless. A particular Queen of the East Angles springs to mind ... the wife of the mightiest Anglo-Saxon King of that "age", and clearly his master and better. Queen Sigdrifa of Sweden and so forth. I bet if one was able to look hard enough, they might even find tales of homosexual relationships. Afterall, amongst the Teutonic folk men were swearing troth to each other and loving each other (lord-retainer), with great affection if the old poetry is to be believed, for at least as long as men and women have engaged in contractual relationships.

While its nice to be able to identify with the characters in a work of fiction, it is, ultimately, still a work of fiction. And are generally filed in the same part of the brain.

End of holy roll.

Shield of the Geats

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Thank you, FoolishOwl and Faraer, for those last two posts. VERY well said, both of you (and Ed and I both agree with your literary opinion of the Morgaine books, Faraer). Ed has told me that he often did foolhardy but noble things, as a very young lad, because that’s what characters he admired in books would do (standing up to bullies, facing down adults who were lying or blustering; that sort of thing . . . big stuff for a shy, bookish young boy to dare to attempt). A few years back, he mentioned that to me in the context of a movie we saw together, EXCALIBUR. Two simple lines from Patrick Stewart’s character took him back to those noble moments of youth, being scared but ‘knowing’ he was doing the Right Thing: “I saw what I saw. The boy drew the sword!” (Those familiar with the film will know the scene, and understand.)
Also, to Karth: sorry. Neither Ed nor I can make GenCon So Cal. Ed has three books and a stack of short stories and web columns to write by mid-December, and I have a similarly heavy editorial workload (textbooks, blech, no less).
Sigh. We’ll just have to get together for a game and console each other, I guess.
THO



"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda
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