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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4746 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2004 :  05:22:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
A question for THO:

What was it like adventuring with a Chosen of Mystra? As Dove is Florin's wife (and a NPC run by Ed) did she join in many of your adventures or was she always 'away' (on Evermeet raising Azalar, helping out her sisters, etc.)? When she did adventure with the KoMD, did she use her "superhero Chosen powers"? Just curious ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Faraer
Great Reader

3291 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2004 :  14:49:31  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
OK, almost same ting. And it's fine, it's just way overused.
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2004 :  01:40:47  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
Hi Ed and THO,

Qstor over on the WOTC boards asked about Trenahes. He says it is on the old FR interactive CD and that it is a place that resides on the trail that runs north from Misteldale to Shadowdale along the river.

I looked through the Volo's Guide to the Dalelands, the FRCS, and the Dalelands sourcebook and didn't see any thing about this place. Can either of you help shed some light on this place?

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 01 Sep 2004 01:42:31
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2004 :  16:17:04  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Well met again, fellow scribes.
Lorelord George, you pose a superb question, probing as it does at the awkward aspects of power imbalances in play.
Herewith, my attempt at a reply: Dove’s true status and identity wasn’t known to any of us at first, of course, after Florin rescued her from cruel straits in which she was playing a part in order to learn some things from her captors (men similarly unaware of her true powers, name, and lineage).
Intrigued by the hero who’d rescued her, she did what any wary, experienced, hardly-daring-to-hope woman would do: she subtly tested him for months, to make sure he didn’t have overly large feet of clay beneath his hero’s boots.
It was some time thereafter, long after she dared to trust him and their romance had begun, that we learned her true status (she’d obviously come to some agreement with her sisters and El not to spill the beans to us). Dove dislikes using magic or calling on the Weave often, preferring to use her wits and her sword in most dealings, and this contributed to concealing her true nature for some time.
She made her inherent independence clear from the very beginning, hinting that she was much older than she looked “thanks to magic” (we assumed potions of longevity, of course), and revealing that she did much Harper work and other covert things for the good of the Dales and Cormyr and law-abiding, peace-loving folk everywhere – work that kept her busy off on her own for days and even months at a time.
Florin accepted that, so all of the rest of us did, too. Torm tried to follow and spy on her once, and ended up neatly stymied (she knew of his skulking, and with gentle amusement led him astray).
She seldom “went adventuring” with us, although on at least two occasions she showed up to save our butts when we ended up ‘in over our heads.’ Our assault on the altar-gates of Myth Drannor was one notable exception, and she also stood with us in one defense of Shadowdale against Zhent armies, hewing her way through most of a flanking force ON HER OWN. So, yes, Dove was largely absent (“busy elsewhere”), and with rare exceptions (such as Weave-healing PCs at the death’s door), never called on her Chosen-super-powers. She and Storm of the Seven prefer not to use magic often in their daily lives (and she moreso than Storm). I might add that Ed is a masterful actor and has forged a roleplaying “style” for the Knights sessions that makes game rules almost superfluous and matters of power far less important than ‘becoming’ one’s character and dealing with the Realms around in that manner. (The “football-quarterback” situation of planning party combats, for instance, almost never arises in our play sessions – so neither do discussions of “Can’t Dove just do this, as a Chosen, and then we’ll . . .”)
I hope that helps to answer your question. I’m off on an assignment for a few days, now, so don’t let my e-silence alarm you. The nature of my work means I’m not always free to just grab a handy Net access and surf, answer e-mails, and so on.
Blades high for now!
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29724 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2004 :  16:45:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

I’m off on an assignment for a few days, now, so don’t let my e-silence alarm you. The nature of my work means I’m not always free to just grab a handy Net access and surf, answer e-mails, and so on.
Blades high for now!
THO




Modeling cloaks on Waterdhavian rooftops?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2004 :  18:47:09  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Alas, no. I'll just have to content myself with modelling nether piercings on Waterdhavian high streets at highsun.
As ever,
YOUR
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29724 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2004 :  19:18:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Alas, no. I'll just have to content myself with modelling nether piercings on Waterdhavian high streets at highsun.
As ever,
YOUR
THO



Ooohh...

I knew there was a reason I loved Waterdeep! I shall have to have a front row seat for this show.

I wish I knew enough Realms-slang to express myself properly, here.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4746 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2004 :  09:05:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
Ah thank you muchly, most beauteous Hooded Oone.

Of course, you've now got my head in a spin to see (and experience?) a gaming session run by Ed. I'm not sure I'd be too good at joining in, but I'd sure love to be a fly on the wall ... thanks again.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Bruce Donohue
Learned Scribe

Canada
129 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2004 :  14:31:53  Show Profile  Send Bruce Donohue a Yahoo! Message Send Bruce Donohue a Private Message
George, from someone who has done it on more than one occasion, I am sure you would find it to be a memorable experience, secondly I am sure that you would do just fine.

A question I would like to ask Ed, what is the hierarchal titles for the monks in Candlekeep?

Greeting THO, how are you radiant one, hope that all is well with you.
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
Admin

United Kingdom
5567 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2004 :  15:29:03  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Donohue

George, from someone who has done it on more than one occasion, I am sure you would find it to be a memorable experience, secondly I am sure that you would do just fine.

A question I would like to ask Ed, what is the hierarchal titles for the monks in Candlekeep?

Greeting THO, how are you radiant one, hope that all is well with you.



Well met

Ed's scroll of the Introduction to Candlekeep may be of particular interest to ye, Bruce. (Simply visit the link at the top of the home page).

Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct


An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2004 :  13:49:34  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

I've resisted the urge to post these questions, and unfortunately they just won't leave me alone... So here goes, all regarding my pet topics of Women's and LesBiGay issues (with a question about Polyamory too!)... (The reason this has all come up for me now is a rather long story... *sigh*)

If people of the Heartlands of the Realms are "enlightened and liberal regarding gender roles," how come we aren't shown this more often in novels and source materials?

How come every second strong woman has to be (it seems) paired up with a male of equal calibre? (Hmmm... I don't think that came out the right way... oh well) How is it that so many "young women" end up with "old fat hairy men"? I'm not making any accusations here, or pulling out any specific examples... But it would be nice if, for once, a female character I happened to like/enjoy wasn't paired off in such a way as to make me go "Oh WHAT?!" (I'm not saying you (or other writers) in the Realms shouldn't do it, I'm just trying to point out a pattern that I have noticed.)

I understand that homosexuality is fairly well accepted by the people of the Realms (Ed answered a question for me on the Realms-L list regarding this a long time ago, but now I'm needing more clarification)... Are there places where it's not accepted? Is there any non-religious based prejudice that exists against it? Is there any religious based prejudice that exists against it? Are there any races that don't accept it at all? (Personally I'd like the "there are no places where it's not accepted, there is no prejudice at all about it at all, everyone accepts it as normal" answer - but the pesemistic realist in me thinks this can't possibly be the case. )

Exactly how common is polyamory?

I understand if you can't answer this next question due to WotC and Hasbro policy - Are there any major NPCs of ambiguous sexuality? (ie: gay/bi/lesbian) I know that in the FRCS, Vaerana Hawklyn (the woman in charge of Law Enforcement in Elversult) is described as Yanseldara's "consort"... No clarification of this term was ever given when queried on the Realms-L list (some people contended, at the time, that the word consort can be equated to the word cohort, and therefore no deeper relationship than that exists between them),I think it was Sean Reynolds who said "read it as you will" at the time... I find this kind of dance around definitions to be singularly unhelpful, especially concidering the term consort has been used elsewhere in the Realms to describe, generally, married couples or those in commited (or even semi-commited) relationships. However, Yanseldara and her may-or-may-not-be lover Vaerana are not what I would describe as "major" NPCs.

I personally would love to see characters in the Realms that I can personally relate to, and I keep coming up short. This is a shame, since I have truely grown to love the Forgotten Realms, but I keep being disappointed (mostly by novels).

And on a different note... Is there anything you can tell us about Caladnei of Cormyr? And will Laeral of Loudwater (who appeared in a flashback in Elminster in Hell) ever make a reappearance?

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.

Edited by - Zandilar on 03 Sep 2004 13:53:38
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1792 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2004 :  14:17:20  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message
Wow Zandilar! almost sounds like you're writing a thesis or other academic work on the subject!! are you a reporter in disguise trying to lure clumsy answers out of us unassuming geeks?
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2004 :  17:06:56  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message
In response to Zandilar's queries: I've never thought about these things myself, but after having read what you have to say I'll add my humble voice to those wishing to hear some fraction of an answer to them.

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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RevJest
Learned Scribe

USA
115 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2004 :  17:43:28  Show Profile  Visit RevJest's Homepage Send RevJest a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

Exactly how common is polyamory?


It certainly seems to be common amongst the Chosen of Mystra! *grin*


quote:

I understand if you can't answer this next question due to WotC and Hasbro policy - Are there any major NPCs of ambiguous sexuality? (ie: gay/bi/lesbian) I know that in the FRCS, Vaerana Hawklyn (the woman in charge of Law Enforcement in Elversult) is described as Yanseldara's "consort"... No clarification of this term was ever given when queried on the Realms-L list


Your questions are interesting to me personally, because I was just thinking the other day how far things have come in terms of what Ed is allowed to get away with when writing a book. He can sneak in innuendo and discuss relationships in a way he never could years ago when I first read Spellfire. I hope the boundries of how much real life he can inject in to a book continue to expand. I'd love to see a clearly lesbian character, or hell even an interesting clearly gay male character would be fine with me. Unfortunately I don't believe my attitudes are shared by the majority of people out there. Yet. And so I doubt we'll be seeing those sorts of characters for some time.

Your message wasn't directed to me. But I just thought it was interesting and decided to comment. Hope you don't mind. :)

- S

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2004 :  21:59:15  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message
Zandilar,

Like simontrinity, I felt compelled to comment. Hope I'm not unduly intruding. I do have at least one direct and authoritative reference to quote though, so hearken:

I must preface this by declaiming that I obviously speak with absolutely zero canon authority and may thus be wasting your time by writing. *I* always ran Yanseldara and Vaerana as a committed homosexual couple, though I realize that doesn't help you much. I suspect that you are looking for “official and open acknowledgement” of characters that reflect your own identity. If I recall, Ed has pretty clearly indicated somewhere on this thread that Alustriel, in her persona as “Queen of Courtly Love”, is free with her affections to both sexes. I would be hard-pressed to surrender the direct reference, though. What I *do* have for you is this: one of Alustriel’s apprentices has been described here by Ed as being in openly in love with her. So sayeth Ed:

***
Zelauma Telthornstars: CG half-e f W9, a free-spirited, always-laughing imp of a bouncy lass with large, liquid blue-green eyes, lush figure and features. She sees the safety and beauty of Silverymoon as a cradle of mirth and ‘human nature’ amusement, and intrigues as fascinating entertainments. The most recent of Alustriel’s apprentices, Zelauma was orphaned when a disease carried off her mother (orc blades had reaped her human father years before), and found her own way overland from their wilderland steading to the only place she knew of that had an abundance of food, warmth, and folk: Silverymoon. There she indulged her love of climbing things to scale buildings and peer in windows, watching Silvaeren private life and considering it one great passing parade of entertainment. Sleeping on rooftops and occasionally hiring herself out as a roof-tile replacer and painter (thanks to her fearless and nimble climbing skills), Zelauma was noticed by a Spellguard mage long before her coins ran out and she’d have been forced to either steal or starve.
Thinking her a thief but not wanting to blast her without proof, the mage reported Zelauma to Taern -- and Alustriel happened to arrive, overhear, and take an interest. Finding Zelauma watching revel through a window from atop an ornamental spire some seventy feet above the street, the High Lady greeted her cordially, they talked, and a few minutes later descended magically together, with Zelauma now Alustriel’s apprentice.
She’s still an impish (but gentle, not cruel) prankster, and loves to climb (especially when restless or upset), but she’s also rapidly becoming a mage of skill, and (to put it bluntly) is hopelessly in love with Alustriel. She’s aware that she’s third in rank among the High Lady’s apprentices and quite content to remain so -- but fully intends, decades from now, to still be serving Alustriel when everyone else has departed or turned away.
*****************************

Ed has also been very free with describing characters in homosexual masquerade or as transvestites of various kinds, though I fully realize that is completely different from “LesBiGay” characters. The most prominent example is the original Lhaeo, of course; who masqueraded as El’s live-in scribe lover for many years. This gave us the term “man-lover” which, based on Ed’s usage in Spellfire, I’ve always interpreted as derogatory and equivalent to “fag”. I generally use it when appropriate to indicate an intolerant, ignorant or otherwise insensitive NPC to my players. The immediate assumption by my well-trained players (LOL) is that the person using the term is a “bad guy” and much surveillance and other prying into that NPC’s affairs generally commences, in an effort to find out where else he is “dirty”. The current Lhaeo is another obvious variation on the theme, being a young woman magically disguised as a rumored gay man who was actually straight. Hello, Blake Edwards! Yikes!

I run a game with many elven PCs. This is not official, but as a conflict mechanism I also use the term “doghead": a derogatory term used by racist (generally evil or profoundly influenced by evil) humans, especially in the Moonsea area, to describe all the demi-human races with pointed or semi-pointed ears; especially elves, half-elves, gnomes and halflings. In official canon, we have prejudice in the form of the Victorious Blade of the People, though neither of those examples are sexuality-oriented.

In Waterdeep, Ed has put the characters of Shalar Simgulphin and Coril: both female Harper agents that cross-dress as men.

I realize all this is probably very thin and unsatisfying indeed, from your point of view. I too would like to hear Ed’s recounting of whatever major characters he sees as embracing different "lifestyles" or sexual identities. Being a hetero American male myself, I am quite predictably more intrigued by tales of women together. That is why I fastened myself barnacle-fashion to the intriguing references involving Yanseldara and Vaerana, and played them up prominently to my players, who are also all hetero males. ;)

The hinted-at gay men merely get noted for the potential embarrassment potential to my players in encountering them. Sure is fun making my players squirm…

I think that expecting any kind of definitive position or open acknowledgement from Hasbro is still unrealistic right now. They will almost certainly keep playing “don’t ask, don’t tell” with all major characters for quite awhile longer. I suspect that Ed can speak more freely about it though, here in Candlekeep. I also suspect that the Hooded One might be able to speak even more freely than Ed on the subject.

What do you say, Hooded One? Now you've got at least three scribes wanting to know. Feel free to answer *without* shooing away the fetching young lady who may or may not be currently occupying your lap… ;)

-Karth
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2004 :  22:58:16  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
I to recall that discussion on the FR mailing list, so I would be interested in more of Ed's thoughts on this. I know he had to remove references to NPC's that were not hetrosexual because of the TSR code of conduct.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2004 :  02:02:09  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

'Tis good to see I'm not alone out in this dark dark world.

@PDK: Nope, I'm not writing a thesis, nor am I a reporter. I'm actually someone who is doing the writing for a Baldur's Gate 2 mod that takes one of the joinable romance NPCs and does a "what if this character was bi-sexual"... And I've copped a lot of flack for it from two members of the community and several rather loud mouthed anonymous posters. They just can't seem to accept that the mod is just the mod equivelant of slash (femmeslash in this case). They think if there's no evidence that the character is gay, then it's just plain disrepectful to the original author to make them so. It would be really nice if I could have something to show them to tell them they can take their homophobic rhetoric and shove it up their... arses. (Seriously, I would like something to show them beyond the meagre information I already have - and if I'm brutally honest with myself, I'm looking for a touch of validation as well.)

@simontrinity: Polyamory is more than just swinging. :) Swinging certainly seems very common - you'd think there was no sin connected to sex?! LOL I probably should have clarified that question - how common are committed polyarmorous relationships?

@Karth: On Vaerana and Yanseldara - it might not help much, but it at least shows me someone else was thinking in the same direction as I.

On Alustriel: Yes, she was one of the major NPCs I figured was bisexual, though she seems to lean more towards heterosexuality. (Yep, we get the hints, then she's got a male consort... ) I actually figure Storm is the same way. Of course I could be totally wrong... (Storm has her invisible boytoy back. )

On Zelauma: I did read about her... I think from this thread even. (I've been up to my eyeballs reading this whole thread the last few days, it's interrupted my writing!) An example of what what I thought was "courtly love" - loving someone from afar with out any hope of it ever being requited.

On Transvestites: Yes, I noticed that too. Plenty of crossdressing, and I was reading about a Tantras festhall a few pages back that had a rumor of a male who used magic to become female and sell pleasure to males.

On Hasbro: Oh I am not expecting them to change for the next century or so. I don't expect the world to become any more tollerant than it already is in my lifetime - if anything I expect it to go backwards. I'm finding it kind of hard to be optimistic at the moment, I'm afraid.

@Ed and THO: Adding a question to my tally here... What does Ed think of slash? Is it indeed disrespectful to the original author?

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2004 :  04:07:50  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

How come every second strong woman has to be (it seems) paired up with a male of equal calibre? (Hmmm... I don't think that came out the right way... oh well) How is it that so many "young women" end up with "old fat hairy men"? I'm not making any accusations here, or pulling out any specific examples... But it would be nice if, for once, a female character I happened to like/enjoy wasn't paired off in such a way as to make me go "Oh WHAT?!" (I'm not saying you (or other writers) in the Realms shouldn't do it, I'm just trying to point out a pattern that I have noticed.)


I've noticed that where Mirt is concerned, but although (obviously) I'm neither The Hooded One nor Ed Greenwood, I feel the need to point out a few instances in which this doesn't hold true. Shandril Shessair (although I'd dispute that she's a strong woman, but that's neither here nor there; she was a prominent enough protagonist) was married to Narm, and they seemed to be in the same age range. Laeral's paired off with Khelben, who's not fat (hee), and the age gap isn't too large (both are immortal, in any case). *coughs* Of course, I've only read three-four novels by EG, so what I've offered may be coming from a rather uneducated view.

And, incidentally, is this the same Zandilar on kotorfanfic.com? If yes, can I go "Wheee!" and tacklehug you?

Edited by - Winterfox on 04 Sep 2004 04:09:39
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2004 :  07:24:43  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

How come every second strong woman has to be (it seems) paired up with a male of equal calibre? (Hmmm... I don't think that came out the right way... oh well) How is it that so many "young women" end up with "old fat hairy men"? I'm not making any accusations here, or pulling out any specific examples... But it would be nice if, for once, a female character I happened to like/enjoy wasn't paired off in such a way as to make me go "Oh WHAT?!" (I'm not saying you (or other writers) in the Realms shouldn't do it, I'm just trying to point out a pattern that I have noticed.)


I've noticed that where Mirt is concerned, but although (obviously) I'm neither The Hooded One nor Ed Greenwood, I feel the need to point out a few instances in which this doesn't hold true. Shandril Shessair (although I'd dispute that she's a strong woman, but that's neither here nor there; she was a prominent enough protagonist) was married to Narm, and they seemed to be in the same age range. Laeral's paired off with Khelben, who's not fat (hee), and the age gap isn't too large (both are immortal, in any case). *coughs* Of course, I've only read three-four novels by EG, so what I've offered may be coming from a rather uneducated view.

And, incidentally, is this the same Zandilar on kotorfanfic.com? If yes, can I go "Wheee!" and tacklehug you?



Since Ed is currently taking a little well-deserved and long delayed time off, I figured I'd chime in here on this one, if only because Khelben and Laeral have been on the brain of late....

In terms of powerful women linked with spouses of equal calibre, well, the K&L relationship really alters depending on the audience and the situations. If you're just having a tankard in one of the tower's libraries with them, you'll find both wizards finishing each other's sentences in a teasing way and laughing far more than anyone would ever accuse of the Blackstaff. In quiet moments, Khelben might even admit that he considers his wife the stronger of the two (and who he relies on for support in all things), while she still feels much the opposite, given his role in saving her from the Crown of Horns that she could not defeat. In public, they play out their expected roles, Khelben keeping his dour and severe public persona locked in place, while Laeral simply reduces the amount of innuendoes and ribald jokes (at least within her husband's earshot).

All in all, it is truly a marriage of equals and soulmates, the two of them having had a tumultuous relationship that saw them realize their love for each other 500 years before they could ever get around to consummating it. Yeah, Moonlighting had nothing of the sexual tension these two had....

Khelben thanks you for not pointing out his love handles, by the by...

As for why Ed keeps pairing up couples who complement each other on many levels, one has only to meet his Jenny to understand. They're a great couple and there's no doubt of the love and respect between them.

For any other discussions on couples, I'll let Ed or THO have at it. For hints of other "nonstandard" oriented characters, I've dropped quite a few into the Realms but rarely highlighted their existence for one reason--What gets a person sexually excited is both something we should really underscore for characters in print, and also, we should be more interested in them as heroes or characters. Their heroism, not their sexuality, defines them; I'm not dismissing that it's an important facet, but it's never been one I've focused on, since I wrote all my FR stuff as a staffer and thus had rules to follow.

Steven
Who might suggest people take closer looks at some of Steven's NPCs in the Watch and the Adventurers' Quarter in Waterdeep as well as a few NPC scattered in LOI & EoSS if you truly need more canonical homosexual characters

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2004 :  15:08:11  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

@Winterfox: Yes, 'tis me. :) Unfortunately I never got to finishing the story of Trin Kaar, that isn't to say I won't go back and do it say... two years down the track. Which looks like exactly what is happening with some NWN fan fiction I started writing in 2002. :)

Tacklehugs are always welcome.

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

Since Ed is currently taking a little well-deserved and long delayed time off, I figured I'd chime in here on this one, if only because Khelben and Laeral have been on the brain of late....



That sounds mildly painful. Have you tried extracting them yet?

quote:

In terms of powerful women linked with spouses of equal calibre, well, the K&L relationship really alters depending on the audience and the situations. If you're just having a tankard in one of the tower's libraries with them, you'll find both wizards finishing each other's sentences in a teasing way and laughing far more than anyone would ever accuse of the Blackstaff. In quiet moments, Khelben might even admit that he considers his wife the stronger of the two (and who he relies on for support in all things), while she still feels much the opposite, given his role in saving her from the Crown of Horns that she could not defeat. In public, they play out their expected roles, Khelben keeping his dour and severe public persona locked in place, while Laeral simply reduces the amount of innuendoes and ribald jokes (at least within her husband's earshot).

All in all, it is truly a marriage of equals and soulmates, the two of them having had a tumultuous relationship that saw them realize their love for each other 500 years before they could ever get around to consummating it. Yeah, Moonlighting had nothing of the sexual tension these two had....



They do seem to be very comfortable with each other. What glimpses of them I've got... In fact, I'd go as far as to say they're actually one couple I have very little (if any) problems with.

Actually I've been thinking of how to express what I was trying to say initially... Male/Female couples being equal are good (excellent even). What I really don't like is when a strong woman meets her equal male counterpart, and then immediately turns to mush. This isn't a problem particular to the FR, mind you. Actually, to be honest FR products/novels seem to be reasonably good (there have been some teeth grinding moments, though). It just seems to be everywhere you look. I guess I'm really after seeing men and women interacting as equals. Having the whole greater than the sum of parts is even better - just so long as both parts are contributing equally.

quote:

As for why Ed keeps pairing up couples who complement each other on many levels, one has only to meet his Jenny to understand. They're a great couple and there's no doubt of the love and respect between them.



Well you'd kind of hope that couples would complement each other. Enough in common, not too many differences (just enough to add spice)... A nice balance of strengths and weaknesses. I don't have a problem with complementary couples. Innate equality is part of that (yes, even within the context of a D/s relationship).

quote:

For any other discussions on couples, I'll let Ed or THO have at it. For hints of other "nonstandard" oriented characters, I've dropped quite a few into the Realms but rarely highlighted their existence for one reason--What gets a person sexually excited is both something we should really underscore for characters in print, and also, we should be more interested in them as heroes or characters. Their heroism, not their sexuality, defines them; I'm not dismissing that it's an important facet, but it's never been one I've focused on, since I wrote all my FR stuff as a staffer and thus had rules to follow.



Oh I certainly agree with you. There should be more to the characters than their sexualities. It just happens to be a special interest of mine. Which is why I asked the questions I have.

(It's not nice being in a position where you feel you must justify yourself in the correct context, because some people can't let go of their own prejudices and believe that Earth prejudices apply even in fantasy worlds, where the same context of civilisation just doesn't exist. If no gods proscribe homosexuality, there's no evidence that it's unnatural, and people aren't brought up to apply any stigma to it - why would homophobia exist (except as the exception rather than the rule)? I'm frustrated with trying to explain it to them, to be honest, and I've had to do just that about five times in the last month... I know I don't have to do it, but ignorance is only countered by knowledge.)

quote:

Who might suggest people take closer looks at some of Steven's NPCs in the Watch and the Adventurers' Quarter in Waterdeep as well as a few NPC scattered in LOI & EoSS if you truly need more canonical homosexual characters



Hmmm... you can bet I'll be taking another look.

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2004 :  19:17:19  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message
Well met!

All the recent talk got me wondering ... is it Lathander with a soft th, or Lathander with a hard th? Seriously.

I was also wondering ... when a (highly mobile) criminal is wanted what do the powers that be do? What is/are the customs? Do they have artists and such that draw likenesses of the criminals? And do they distribute and post these to the far corners of the realm?


"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2004 :  05:42:22  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar

Heya,

@Winterfox: Yes, 'tis me. :) Unfortunately I never got to finishing the story of Trin Kaar, that isn't to say I won't go back and do it say... two years down the track. Which looks like exactly what is happening with some NWN fan fiction I started writing in 2002. :)

Tacklehugs are always welcome.


*goes "Squee!" and tacklehugs you*

Off-topic: speaking of relationships of equals, I wonder how you'd think of my take on Canderous/female Revan pairing?
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Metis
Acolyte

11 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2004 :  18:59:53  Show Profile  Visit Metis's Homepage Send Metis a Private Message
Greetings Ed (and to the Lady Hooded One, much thanks for delivering our queries),

I was wondering if you might be able to provide any lore on the towns and region that falls on and around the Trader's Road east of Iriaebor, leading toward Westgate.

The towns of Easting and Priapurl seem to have recieved little detail in the past, and I can find absolutely nothing about the Giant's Plain to the south of there. I have read the little on Priapurl from earlier sources (at least I think I've seen all of that), and it mostly involved the rather odd mercenary company located there, but nothing much about the rest of the town. I think Easting has had a paragraph or two.

Thank you much.
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Vanguard
Seeker

15 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2004 :  05:23:53  Show Profile  Visit Vanguard's Homepage Send Vanguard a Private Message
Hi First off I would like to put in my Two Cents on the subject of Sexuality, Crossdressing, and non normal sexual behavior such as Gay and Lesbian sexual attraction.


I would First like to point out, that you average D&D 3.5 tabletop and PBEM game has some Lusty and Bawdy elements too it, due to the simple fact that most of the players are young male adults. Mind you it's not a bad thing having a game group made mostly of young males, but they do act out through there characters alot of pent up frustation so to speak.


The crossdressing aspect of the game and fiction is a slight touchy subject, it depends on how it's handled. When a girl crossdress as a boy it's so they can get ahead in a Man's world, Human history is full of such examples.

I also know why Hasbro has tippy toe around this subject, they don't want to shock or scare off there readers or customers.


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Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2004 :  14:35:25  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message
Zandilar -
quote:
On Zelauma: I did read about her... I think from this thread even. (I've been up to my eyeballs reading this whole thread the last few days, it's interrupted my writing!) An example of what what I thought was "courtly love" - loving someone from afar with out any hope of it ever being requited.

Well, Ed was pretty precise in describing the patented Alustriel approach to "Courtly Love". My understanding is that it involves large rooms filled with a few dozen of her closest friends being very cozily naked with one another and a happy, very busy Alustriel buried somewhere in the middle...

Now, with that in mind, I don't think it would be an unwarranted leap of logic to assume that the bouncy female apprentice most madly in love with Alustriel and personally recruited by her might be among those few dozen "close friends", when her duties as apprentice and wall-crawling spy permit. Of course, I'd like to hear Ed directly confirm all that almost as much as you likely would. *wink*

The more I hear about Alustriel in Ed's own words, the less she reminds me of Galadriel and the more she puts me in mind of Margaret "Legs" Sadovsky from the movie "Foxfire". Not the teen-ish rebelliousness, obviously. More the fierce, almost cultish, devotion to friendship as an end in itself and the penchant for completely entrancing everyone around her; making them helplessly idolize/love her...

Mind you: I readily admit to making the association with a big, goofy grin affixed to my face.

Hmmm... Angelina... ;)

-Karth

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