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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Sep 2004 : 02:13:12
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Heya,
quote:
And, yes, of course there are other ways to show female choice besides having strong gals pick old fat hairy males, and I’ve used many of them (unnoticed, it seems :} ). Some, such as the notorious female noble at the subterranean revel in Elminster’s Daughter, choose by ‘not choosing’ (or rather, not confining themselves to one choice). I can see where the older male thing might seem a touch chauvinistic in intent, but in both the seduction-of-Mirt story and the initial tryst involving Vangey in Elminster’s Daughter, the older male is portrayed as being astonished-to-disbelieving, reluctant, flattered, and shyly tentative at the advances of the female, never as making the advances himself, or “accepting his due,” or “awaiting her inevitable coming to her senses by picking me.”
As I've said before, I've not read everything. Besides which, you don't have to prove that the girls concerned made a choice on their own, because generally in Realms fiction it's obvious. Where as someone not reading everything in the background about Mirt and Asper might just get the wrong idea...
But it's really not my place to be judgemental, and if I have been - my sincerest apologies. 
quote:
Myrmeen Lhal is in her late forties by now (darn those passing days; just can’t stop them), though she doesn’t look it, in two ways: she’s always been ruggedly fit and blessed with “fine cheekbones” good looks that weather well; and she’s always led a life of action and looked a trifle battered as a result -- so as the years pass, she hasn’t visibly aged all that much.
*adjusts her mental picture just slightly* 
quote:
I can see how Caladnei’s sparring sequence in “When Shadows Come Seeking a Throne” might make her seem almost psionic; what I was striving for was Alusair using a real everyday weapon, and Caladnei trying to strengthen her own concentration and mental endurance by maintaining and animating a spell-spun parrying blade. And yes, she is supposed to be ‘learning on the job,’ a mage of less power in Art than many War Wizards, having to survive through wits and diplomacy rather than brute force-of-spells. Smack you, you say? Oh, no: I’m in enough trouble already! :}
Interesting. Just the whole bar of force think kind of reminded me of something a touch more psionic than magical - like using the Force rather than the Weave. 
On her relative power: I thought that might be the case.
On smacks: Aww... 
quote:
I remember the titanic Oz book prices from my Australian tour (1992, I think), and they still make me wince. And here I thought Canadian (typically two-thirds higher to twice as high as American) book prices were steep! Sheesh; you folks are DEDICATED Realms fans.
I'm rather lucky in that I know someone who can get wholesale prices on most Realms books for me. We buy directly from the Victorian distributor (Jedko/Military Simulations) - so I can get books cheaper (I'm just short of cash at the moment, and haven't been able to get there for a few weeks). Generally, though, for non-Realms books of the fantasy or science fiction genre, the costs are high because they've been directly imported by the retailer (I believe).
quote:
I’d not have done what your DM did with either Alusair or Caladnei, but on the other hand both can call on heavy War Wizard aid (everpresent bodyguards, if you’d like), inherited “magic items of office” or of royal ownership, and a reputation throughout Cormyr (thanks to Azoun IV and Vangerdahast) of being able to do just about anything. In other words, if they don’t blow it, both women can “fool a lot of the people for a lot of the time to come.”
If I ever DM again (and it's been years since I have), I think I'll take a leaf out of your book for running them. In the game I'm playing in with epic level Regent and Court Wizard, our characters are the same kind of level as Caladnei is shown to be in the FRCS - the PCs are powerful, but then, so is everything else.
quote:
I quite see where characters like Laeral of Loudwater seem to pop up out of nowhere. I carry the ongoing tapestry of the Realms in my head, including literally scores of short stories you’ve never seen and may never see, some of them written literally decades ago. So Laeral didn’t ‘pop up out of nowhere’ for me, but of course she seemed to, for you. I’ve several dozen characters I’d like to develop more fully, but the WotC reliance on “signature characters” and series about them makes this difficult. I have to repeatedly sneak people like Mirt and Glarasteer Rhauligan in, as supporting characters.
I sort of understand where you're coming from on this. I have my own world I've been writing about and thinking about since 1984 or so. But I don't think I'm anywhere near as prolific in the writing/designing/making notes department as you seem to be.
I think it would be interesting to see less signature characters and more just "regular" adventuring folk in the Realms. Hmmm... I might just try something like that for my own world.
Once again, thank you for your time.
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Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2004 : 12:54:00
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Let me start by giving thanks to the Hooded One and Ed (Mr. Greenwood? Mr Ed? The Bearded One?) for the excellent answer to Zandilar's questions. And then leap head on into my thoughts about it.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The “original” Realms, “my” Realms, was my own imaginary fantasy setting for fiction before D&D® ever existed, and then my own D&D campaign world for years before it became an “official” D&D® setting. It was purchased to be the official ‘home’ of the 2nd Edition D&D® game, and therefore by definition had to be, and still must be, ‘all things to all people.
In light of that prime philosophy and publishing need, it’s foolish to upset some Realms fans by stating matters too baldly and being too definite when we (various Realms designers and authors) can HINT to our collective hearts’ content -- and in doing so, leave DMs full leeway to run particular characters however best suits their principles and preferences.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
It should come as news to no one that many consumers, particularly in the United States, have religious and societal views that clash with in-thy-face lesbian, gay male, and bisexual lifestyles.
With that said, yes there are a LOT of “non-modern-real-world-American-mores-standard” relationships in the Realms. I don’t make a big issue of it for several reasons.
First, offending some fans as referred to above. Secondly, TSR Code of Ethics/WotC and Hasbro Code of Conduct prohibitions (e.g. on sodomy, incest, etc.) and editorial censorship, which has (as some scribes have already noted) by and large been relaxing over the years, but has occasionally reached ridiculous heights.
So what you correctly refer to as “dance around definitions,” Zandilar, is how staffers at WotC have to operate, and merely good business sense (again, those who wish to read the obvious hints re. lifestyles can do so, and those offended by such matters don’t get their noses rubbed in it so harshly that it ruins their enjoyment of the setting). simontrinity is correct in saying that I can go much farther in sexual matters (and, yes, innuendo, which I enjoy) these days than I could when I started writing Realms books. So the horizons ARE widening.
Now, I may be dense, but isn't there a possiblity that showing openly gay male and female characters in a positive light might just actually make one or two of those that would be, if not offended so at least, uncomfortable at first seeing such a character look on the whole thing in a slightly different (more tolerant) light.
I know this has worked on me - heterosexually male and the product of the not extremely tolerant in matters of sexual "deviance" (not my term) environment of swedish blue-collar working-class. Getting to see homosexual characters (real and fictitious) that were more than just gay helped me to realize at a fairly early age that maybe that whole thing wasn't very important. (Then again I was raised by a pair of die-hard socialists, and that does entail a certain ideology of tolerance towards anyone that's not filthy rich - unless it's your neighbour who just won the lottery)
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I’ve actually written many gay (and far more bi- ) males and females into the Realms that NO ONE recognizes as such, purely because they DON’T adopt modern real-world sterotypical styles (such as so-called “butch” behaviour or effeminate “limp-wristed and lisping”).
But acting the limp-wristed and lisping gay is one of my best comedy-acts. If not one I pull out when I'm with gays who don't know me well enough to realise that I'm actually making fun of the prejudice rather than being prejudiced myself.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I’m not sure if you’ll see a clearly lesbian or gay male character in a novel soon, because the only way to give them that status “clearly” is to engage in protracted sex scenes, which are seldom okay with editors.
Well you could always let one of them simply slip somewhere in a conversation that they'd really fancy having a tryst with -insert character name here- who just so happens to be of the same sex they are. Or let a friend of the character in question tease them about his/hers relationship with a character the readers know to be of the same sex as the teased one. But yes, I suppose one or two very dense (or unwilling to see) people would fail to realise what this meant.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you?
I'd have to go with what several others have already said: It depends on its importance to the story. As for casual descriptions of sexual realationships - situations where it may be important that the reader knows that he and she (or she and she or he and he) is doing the under-the-sheets-fandango but the how they do it isn't important - I'd say that my line of comfort would be that point where the preluding kissing and cuddling starts to turn rather um ...heated. But basically as long as I don't feel that a sex-scene is put in there to have a sex-scene in the story I'm happy with it.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Sex IS alive and well in the Realms.
What?! Even after Azoun's demise?
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
However, Zandilar, just between you and me (and of course everyone across the world with Net access who reads this :} ): I personally happen to be a guy who likes gals, but I’m quite comfortable kissing, hugging, and even caressing or comforting guys. Such activities don’t happen to turn me on sexually. I’m a “toucher,” and always have been: I hug and kiss a lot, perhaps more naturally than I shake hands (when greeting females formally, I was taught to kneel and kiss their hands). However, I know that such close contact gives a lot of people the creeps, and I have utterly no interest in upsetting people outside of a roleplaying session in which we’re both acting: if someone goes red or jerks away from me, oops: MY bad.
And let me as a fellow "toucher" ask you to keep it at. Perhaps if more people would be like that we'd not have to worry about others being uncomfortable with physical contact with a person of the same sex. - It always strikes me as funny how the guys in my football-team
(soccer to the uncivilised) was quite prepared to hug and kiss each other, even lay down in a big pile of bodies whilst on the pitch, but then would be extremely uncomfortable about getting hugged by someone off the pitch if they were in need of comforting or anything like that.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The Realms is people (characters) and THEIR STORIES, not stats -- and not merely their bedchamber preferences, either.
Hear, hear
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I hope I’ve answered your questions without overly offending anyone, Zandilar and other scribes. As you can probably tell, I’m not shy about discussing such topics, and I’m sure Alaundo and Tethtoril will step in if they think matters are getting (ahem) out of hand, so if you’ve follow-up questions, feel free. However, folks, please let’s NOT get into an endless round of “So is Manshoon gay? Is Fzoul? Okay, how about Larloch?”
I would hope there are more things to talk about in the Realms than that.
There certainly is a lot of things to talk about in the realms. I'm definately going to try and come up with something to ask here, and it probably won't take more than a minute or two.
But... Is Manshoon gay?
Anyway, once again, thanks to the Hooded One and Ed for the attention they lavish on this community, it is most definately appreciated by this newcomer. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Alaundo on 11 Sep 2004 18:28:31 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2004 : 14:24:53
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And now for something completely different...
I'm working on a small piece of fannish writing set in Amn, basically the write-up of one of my campaign's NPCs backstory gotten out of hand and was wondering if you could provide a bit more information as to the mode of dress in said country than appears in the Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Sands publications in much the same way you've done for Silverymoon earlier on this scroll. Any information as to this topic would be most appreciated.
Your humble servant (and devout reader) Kajehase |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2004 : 14:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you?
I'm normally happy to just lurk here, but I wanted to answer Ed's question.
Personally, I'd like to see more sex in Realms novels (and in fantasy novels in general, for that matter). It's a part of life. Our parents have done it (otherwise we'd not be here), and most adults have done it. Also, I've come to develop a dislike for what I see as hypocritical authors, who give us blood and gore by the bucketful but shy away from anything overtly sexual (David Eddings in particular comes to mind here). As for the line of comfort... I'd rather not read about bestiality, necrophilia, and really underage (15 years old or less) sex. But I'm certain that more overt sex, as long as it's not gratuitous, would enhance Realms novels. |
Edited by - Krafus on 11 Sep 2004 14:45:42 |
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Proc
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2004 : 17:32:22
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Krafus touches on a good point, with all the blood, gore, death and maiming that goes on within some Realms books, it makes the argument about descriptions of sexual behaviour seem somewhat silly.
People seem happy to accept that characters are beheaded, run-through and torn appart by spells in the realms readily enough, but can balk at sexual situations. I know it's not quite the same thing (especially concerning homosexual/bi situations) but they can both affect readers strongly.
As for myself, I will echo previous posters in saying with whatever the author feels will enhance the story and not detract from it is fine with me. I'd be comfortable with a more graphic depiction, but then, I'm a little older now then when I first started reading Realms novels. I can bet there are quite a few young men and women who read Realms novels who might be uncomfortable with more graphic depictions. (Not to mention their parents). I can remember reading a certain "graduation" ceremony concerning the Drow in one of Salvatore's novels - had my parents known I was reading something like that at the time, I doubt they would have let me continue. |
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2004 : 02:14:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The Realms is people (characters) and THEIR STORIES, not stats -- and not merely their bedchamber preferences, either.
Hear, hear
Let me just clarify a little why I asked about sexuality in the Realms. I didn't ask about it because I want to stick sex scenes into things I write, or because I was overly interested in the sexualities of important NPCs. A person or character is the full sum of their experiences. Knowing how their world works is an important part of portraying a character - if the world is rather intollerant of homosexuality, a young gay character will have issues with hiding their identity from the world around them.... While a young gay character in a totally tollerant society will not have the same issues. It might not be the be all and end all of what the character is about, but it really does have an impact. I guess I'm not saying anything new for the writers here.
Also, I wanted to have more detailed information so that I can show some people that the Realms are much more tollerant than they believe it to be. For some reason, certain people have the impression that homosexuality is no more tollerated there than it is here, and further some even seem to equate the alignment LG with a judeo-christian moral structure. This is simply because none of what you've said about homosexuality (or sexuality in general) in the Realms has filtered through to print, Ed. There are hints, but you have to be a dedicated Realms fan to find them. While some BG2 fans are Realms fans as well, not all of them are.
So the information I have garnered here is going to be used to shape how certain NPCs react to a Relationship/Romance mod I'm writing (for Viconia from BG2). It's important since the relationship is between two female characters - but the fact that Viconia is a) a drow, and b) is evil, and c) is a priestess of Shar, will also be important factors shaping how the other NPCs react to the relationship. (It is more actually complicated than that, since Viconia's story ultimately becomes one of redemption for good PCs... but hey... there you go.)
I wonder if you're aware of the existance of this page: The Complete Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge: On Sex and Sexuality in the Realms? (They don't exactly name names, but it's obvious where they're talking about.) |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2004 : 09:45:43
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Been meaning to reply to this thread since the question was asked by Ed.
To me it really doesn’t matter, if a story delves into an intensely descriptive sex seen I barely bat an eye as long as it fits with the story or some way into it. If it is just put in there to raise eyebrows and the pulse and adds not a single thing to the story then no.
I am the same way with blood, gore, and violence as well. if it adds to the story then go for it.
When I read a book or a story I leave my personal beliefs out the moment the cover is opened and the first word registers in my mind. I read a book for a story not to reinforce my beliefs or challenge them, I just want the tale told as believable as possible. In fact I rarely see that in many novels, I see a character take on fifty other creatures and come out of the fight without a single drop of blood on them to me that isn’t believable but I know about drawing the lines, and sadly sometimes it has to be done. I still have the strong desire to see the real Manshoon as mentioned before by THO, after you said he made you shudder I would give an arm and a leg to see what he is really like unedited or toned down but that is just me.
Personally I would rather it be as real as possible and not edited but that isn’t the world we live in sad enough to say.
The world I am creating deals with sexuality the same way Ed does in the FR, so as you can imagine I have no problem with it what so ever.
I just wonder what people feel is truly off limits in stories, topics that might be brought up or things that happen to characters or the decisions they make. I wonder this just because some of the stuff I bring up in the characters I create or stories I write about, I know a lot of them would be considered taboo by many readers or just too dark to write about. And I know many of the character histories wouldn’t be considered typical fantasy genre.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2004 : 01:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Well met!
All the recent talk got me wondering ... is it Lathander with a soft th, or Lathander with a hard th? Seriously.
According to Faiths & Avatars, it's pronounced Lah-THAN-der. So I'd say it's a soft th, as in "the".
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Bruce, I’m fine, thanks -- and hello right back! I’m sure Karth and Wooly will be happy to know that I’m as bare as usual, curled up in front of my keyboard with a mug of warm green tea and a tankard of cold mint lemonade within easy reach, taking alternate sips and happily remembering adventuresome moments in the Realms. Wooly still has hold of the other end of my leash, as I recall, but I’m afraid I was just kidding about the piercings. The near end of said leash ends in clamps, yes, but piercings, no. Which is probably more than enough teasing detail for some scribes.
And I've no intention of releasing such a lovely captive -- unless she can convince me too, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you?
I'm not sure I have a line of comfort. My comfort comes with the question, "Is this descriptive scene of sexuality adding something to the tale or is it just there for shock effect?"
Once more, I must agree with our Sarcastic Scribe. I've read a few fantasy tales that included sex, and though I may not have been comfortable with some of the practices, they added to the tale. On the other hand, I've read tales that included sex scenes that added nothing to the tale -- and to me, actually detracted from it (Stephen King readily comes to mind). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Sep 2004 01:16:10 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2004 : 02:23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Once more, I must agree with our Sarcastic Scribe.
You're just saying that because you missed me. But, if I must confess, I missed you too. Sarcastic Scribe....I think I found my custom title if MORs ever get that option.
quote:
On the other hand, I've read tales that included sex scenes that added nothing to the tale -- and to me, actually detracted from it (Stephen King readily comes to mind).
Come to think of it, when it comes to sexual scenes that I read and felt didn't help the story in some way, King also is someone I would probably choose. Apologies if any of his fans disagree and it has been some time since I read any of his work. |
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Karth
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2004 : 16:52:57
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Hooded One: I am indeed disappointed that there was no fetching lass cuddled in your lap. However you were apparently naked, on the bright side, and it would appear by your own confessions that your lap has been so occupied in times past. Thus, I am suitably mollified by your delightfully bisexual nature... *chuckle*
Ed: I would draw a clear distinction between sex scenes, as such, and the depiction of clearly romantic scenes between characters. It is obviously not strictly necessary to give us all the ribald details if your only point is to express the romantic love that exists or develops between two characters, whether they be straight, bi, or gay. Venturing into film here, Han Solo and Princess Leia fell quite memorably in love on camera in Episode V without exchanging much more than a couple of fairly chaste kisses and a whole lot of heated discussion. The same can arguably be said of Xena and Gabrielle. For my money, it is the emotional content and our affection for the characters that hits home, not the gory details. For an obscenely crappy attempt at this in yet another SW film, witness the cringe-worthy travesty that is Anakin and Padme in "Attack of the Clones"...
Having said that, I agree with the general consensus that the decision must reside with the author/director on whether or not an explicit scene is rightly called for. If it makes sense and advances the story, then bring on the kiss and tell in full glory, by all means. Further, if it illuminates the basic principles, mentality and methods of a character, as would be the case with both Alustriel and Storm: bring it on. I'm willing to give an author I already enjoy and trust (YOU, in other words) a whole lot of leeway on that score. I don't even object to rape scenes, if they are obviously needed to provide a driving motivation for a particular character or part of a story.
However, if it is obviously gratuitous and intended to pointlessly grab attention, I hereby thumb my nose in it's general direction... ;)
Eh... definitely leave the kids and non-sentient animals alone though. Without tempting a flame war on the subject of religion and sex, let's just agree that such things are plain creepy and to be clearly avoided.
Regards and Thanks,
Karth
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Bruce Donohue
Learned Scribe
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2004 : 17:34:55
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Greeting fair maiden THO and greetings to you as well Ed.
My question is in regards to the Monks at Candlekeep and the wonderful intro you provided for this site.
Just curious, how long could a Master Read be abscent from Candlekeep before he or she is no longer considered part of the Avowed, or is it once an Avowed, always an Avowed.
For example: If a Master Reader left Candlekeep and searched for various knowledge and tomes, and being a longer lived race, doesn't officially return to Candlekeep for some time, oh lets say 100 years. During that time though, various tomes, scrolls, etc... have made their way to Candlekeep with a sigil that represented the Master Reader member. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2004 : 15:02:13
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Well met again, Bruce. I bring you these words from Ed:
Once an Avowed, always an Avowed (unless all of the senior monks [or if you are the black sheep, all except you] cast you out, which has normally only been done for book thieves, book destroyers, and individuals who ‘got in’ disguised in order to change writings, hide writings, or do harm to fellow ‘Learned’). In other words, mere absence from Candlekeep has no effect at all on one’s status. It should be noted, however, that under NO circumstances can off-site monks get writings from Candlekeep sent to them. Letters from fellow monks containing requested information, yes; original tomes or copies of any spell or magical lore, no.
And there you have it, from The Loremaster himself. Who hopes to resurface soon.
THO
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 00:03:24
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Heya,
Well, here is another question I'm curious about.
How do surnames work in the Realms? Are they matrilineal? Patrilineal? (And if they're Matri or Partilineal, what is the reasoning?) Chosen by mutual agreement between two people being married? chosen at adulthood? Are they mutable (ie: do they change as the person bearing the name decides)? Or do they really only matter for nobility, and if so, which of the above (if any) applies to them?
I know, for example, that the surname of the Royal House in Cormyr seems to follow whoever is ruling at the time (this must be the case, since they're still bearing the Obarskyr name). What happens when Alusair decides to get married (if she ever does)? Does she take the name of her husband? Or would her husband take her name?
Also on Cormyr... Is the line "first born rules" or "first son rules, and daughters only rule if there is no son, or the son(s) is(/are) proven incompetent?" (From the Cormyr: A Novel, the latter seemed to be the rule at some point in Cormyrian history - has this changed?) |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 01:31:36
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Since I've done some work on this in the past, I can answer the surname question, at least to some degree.
Surnames can come from a number of sources, and depend on the nation and culture; surnames can come from either the husband or wife, a combination of the two names. In most cases, however, surnames are only significant for official matters, such as nobility.
Specifically for the nobility of Cormyr, the rule is essentially this: men retain their own surnames, but women only do so when their own family name is of lower status than their husbands', or when they stand no chance of inheriting a family title. To use Alusair as an even more specific example, she will always have the right to refer to herself as Alusair Nacacia Obarskyr, and will likely be called than until she dies. She may also adopt the surname of her husband (though this isn't likely), but her husband will never be called Obarskyr. For another example, look at Laspeera Naerinth, who is also Laspeera Inthre (her husband's surname), and can call herself whichever she likes, or Lady Eveningspire (after the lands Azoun granted her).
Children are named by their parents, and the names they possess depend, again, on the titles involved. Sons of noblemen always carry their father's names at birth, but those surnames might be changed on the assumption of an inheritence or being named an heir. Sons of noblewomen carry whichever title they might actually inherit--Alusair's children will carry the surname of their father so long as Azoun's line survives, but Azoun himself was never Azoun Cormaeril; he was always Azoun Obarskyr, since he was an heir to the throne.
Cormyr is not a strict primogeniture--elder women can inherit titles in favor of younger brothers--but the tendency is still to assign titles to sons rather than daughters. If the first born child is a son, there's no debate: he is the heir apparent. If the first born is a daughter, however, all manner of discussion occurs as to whether she should inherit, or a younger brother, or even a younger daughter (as was the case between Tanalasta and Alusair).
I hope this makes sense. I've internalized a lot of the information, so if I'm babbling (or wrong, as Ed may well point out) please forgive me. |
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 10:34:28
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| As we're on the subject of Cormyr, and Garen Thal, your eyes are turned towards this thread as well... can i ask where i can find the Highknight prestige class? I've seen it in the write up of Storm Silverhand's circle of agents and companions on the official Realmslore page, but i've never seen the class itself in full detail. I do have a vague recollection that someone mentioned it was in an issue of Dragon, and if that's true can anyone tell me how to get hold of that back issue here in the UK? Or can my ultimate wish be granted and the class posted on here? Or does that breach some law or other? |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 15:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
As we're on the subject of Cormyr, and Garen Thal, your eyes are turned towards this thread as well... can i ask where i can find the Highknight prestige class? I've seen it in the write up of Storm Silverhand's circle of agents and companions on the official Realmslore page, but i've never seen the class itself in full detail. I do have a vague recollection that someone mentioned it was in an issue of Dragon, and if that's true can anyone tell me how to get hold of that back issue here in the UK? Or can my ultimate wish be granted and the class posted on here? Or does that breach some law or other?
Yes, it was in an issue of Dragon Magazine -- Annual number 5. You could see if the Paizo website has it available as a back issue, though I think it unlikely. Your best bets are to check any FLGS, and see if they have back issues, or to hit eBay. As for posting it here, that would be a copyright infringement, and the last thing we need is an infestment of lawyers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 16:15:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for posting it here, that would be a copyright infringement, and the last thing we need is an infestment of lawyers.
Correction my Wooly friend. Generally, it's consider an infestment when the lawyers are on our side. When they are on someone elses, its an infestation.
Grendel's Mamma's Daddy |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 17:22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for posting it here, that would be a copyright infringement, and the last thing we need is an infestment of lawyers.
Correction my Wooly friend. Generally, it's consider an infestment when the lawyers are on our side. When they are on someone elses, its an infestation.
Grendel's Mamma's Daddy
Whoops, my bad. I knew that word didn't look right. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 18:07:33
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The idea of a kind of content being 'gratuitous': our-world violence is gratuitous, irrational, uncalled-for, unnecessary, without reward, and so in fiction with an even minimal mimetic purpose it's almost impossible for fictional violence to be. Prudery and self-censorship, however, is often gratuitous. (And love is sometimes violent, and violence has no restraint, as we know from Swans.) That's a senseless discourse because it takes an unviolent, unsexual world as a norm, following on recent traditions of Bowdlerization of adult and children's literature, associating reduced versions of fairy-tales with children. 'Importance to the story' has been a cover for reaction enough times that I expect cant when I hear it.
My tastes are usually away from anatomical descriptions of either sex or fighting. But a two-minded world with aspects it can't show is unhealthy as such minds are. The confusion Zandilar's seen in some people shows the difficulties of that (which is a wider problem with the Realms than the sexuality) and also of sources not asserting the 'Realms isn't Earth' principle consistently and surely. That said, of course, language can't deliver a story's implied or explicit worlds literally and transparently, and some such torque is part of fictional modes, of sword and sorcery as a whole and of the Realms' mode(s) in particular; and art always works by showing *and* hiding (figure and ground, Gestalt psychology, etc.). |
Edited by - Faraer on 16 Sep 2004 18:09:27 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2004 : 16:03:24
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Well met again, fellow scribes.
Beowulf, Wooly (and Wooly, regarding the leash, I promise to start convincing you in my own arch manner the moment time affords) is as right as usual: Lathander has a “soft h”
Karth, I’m glad you’re suitably mollified. :}
Zandilar, Garen Thal did a very good job of answering you re. Cormyr. I bring you these words of Ed as a backup:
Garen is eloquently correct, as usual. Regarding the crown passing to royal sons versus daughters, the official rule is eldest progeny regardless of gender, but what has always happened in ‘real life’ in Cormyr is eldest progeny UNLESS other legitimate (no ‘bastard’) offspring are far more popular with other Obarskyrs and to a lesser extent powerful and influential nobles. (In truth, the support of the War Wizards, in particular the Royal Magician, play a large part in successions, because they can and have used magical means to make various Obarskyrs seem other than they are, or sickly, or untrustworthy (or even treasonous), or even to eliminate undesirable heirs . . . without, in almost all cases, the general public being aware that they’re doing so.)
To tackle your specific questions in order, many folk (who don’t own land in areas where land has a monetary value, such as cities, or who don’t hold family titles, ranks, or wealth) in the Realms don’t have surnames. Others have ‘bestowed by the neighbours’ surnames (e.g. Barakh the Smith, Ruldar of the Grove). A large number were ORIGINALLY chosen by mutual agreement between two persons getting married, but are ‘set’ by about four generations (i.e. everyone involved is used to them and proud of them, and would never think of changing or dropping them unless marrying into money or acquiring a title elsewhere).
As for folks marrying into other families, in some places (Tharsult, Altumbel, Priapurl, Glister, Rashemen, Sossal) they’re matrilineal, in others (Cormyr, Sembia, Waterdeep, Amn, Tethyr) patrilineal, yet even in these places there are exceptions.
And many, many people in the Realms (particularly adventurers) take another name if they establish new lives elsewhere. So, yes, they ARE mutable. And to a large extent, yes, they only matter to nobility - - and both the formal and informal rules governing nobility vary from realm to realm (something I very much hope we can cover in depth in future Realms releases).
So there you have it!
More later, but I’ll be e-silent this weekend (and so, of course, will Ed). Fare thee well, until next!
THO
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TheHermit
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 12:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So let me turn this matter back to fellow scribes: how much overt sex would YOU like to read in, say, Ed Greenwood-penned Realms novels? Where’s the “line of comfort” for you?
Dunno about Realms fiction, but this forum has certainly pegged my "TMI Meter" lately. |
- "Glitz & Klax's Potions & Elixirs"/"The Sandmen", Inside Ravens Bluff, The Living City; 1990; TSR, Inc.
- "The Far Guardians' Traveler's Mission", Port of Ravens Bluff; 1991, TSR, Inc.
- "Signs Painted", Polyhedron #70; April, 1992; TSR, Inc.
- Communications Director, Coliseum of Comics, Orlando, FL - http://coliseumofcomics.com/ |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 19:05:30
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Hi Ed,
Ksu_bond is wondering if either you or THO can supply any details about omlar gems? They are mentioned on page 157 of the FRCS in the Omlarandin Mountains.
Kuje's text: I looked in the FRCS gem section and the FR Adventures gem section but neither book has those gems listed. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 00:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Hi Ed,
Ksu_bond is wondering if either you or THO can supply any details about omlar gems? They are mentioned on page 157 of the FRCS in the Omlarandin Mountains.
Kuje's text: I looked in the FRCS gem section and the FR Adventures gem section but neither book has those gems listed.
That's because I made them up for LANDS OF INTRIGUE. Look to the Omlarandin mountain range of Tethyr for info on omlars (including the regional variant name for displacer beasts as omlar-cats). Don't recall how much info I left therein about it, but lemme check....here it is...
" The name Omlarandin is a pidgin Tethyrian word that means, depending on context, "sparkling," "mysterious," or "magical." It is actually a corruption of the dwarven olaramorndin, or "magical peaks." The name (in all contexts) refers to rock crystals found within the hills and mountains here. Once thought to be light-colored emeralds but proven to be too soft (closer in hardness and color to aquamarine), the "omlars" were found to be compatible with magic and easily absorbed enchantments. While few omlars have been discovered in centuries, there are still a few that are found, and these precious stones fetch incredible sums from wizards in Saradush, Duhlnarim, Llorbauth, and Zazesspur (price rising with distance)."
And because we haven't exchanged any in a while (if ever), a flurry of lascivious looks, kisses, random hugs, and much laughter to THO and Eddie! I'll let y'all decide amongst yourselves how to divide those up.
Steven
who wonders if Ed's ever managed to transfer all his books yet from the old office to the new one in the house....? |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 01:03:23
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| Thanks Steven. :) And to Ed and THO as well for spending so much time answering our flood of questions! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 22 Sep 2004 01:09:17 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 14:53:49
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Dearest Steven,
Ed and I send likewise back to you, copiously. Ed wants you to know he’ll be at a gaming convention (Phantasm, in Peterborough, Ontario) this weekend, and so won’t be available once again (and has a houseguest during the weekend and week after that, and family visiting the week after THAT), but is happy and busy (surprise), although he’s running into increasing NDA problems when developing some of the long-awaited lore answers for scribes here at Candlekeep.
Thanks very much for the omlar reply, and here’s a tidbit for all: Filfaeril has some secrets from her past involving senior nobles of the realm, and Azoun has a daughter (not by her) among the ranks of the hitherto-in-print-faceless junior War Wizards. Food for thought, but be warned that I’ll say no more (because Ed’s told me no more, and with a grin tells me he won’t, either).
Bright banners to all,
THO
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Karth
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 18:38:25
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THO:
Do you happen to know if Ed is planning to attend GenCon So Cal?
How about yourself?
-Karth |
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FoolishOwl
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 19:40:15
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I wanted to thank Ed of the Greenwood and The Hooded One for their many, very interesting posts in this thread, but especially for that long, detailed response to Zandilar's questions.
When I was around twelve or so, I read a lot of Arthurian romances, with all those stories of knights and ladies dying of longing for each other, without ever realizing their mutual love. Those stories appealed to the lonely little boy I was at the time, but there was a shortcoming: they didn't show any way out of that loneliness.
I read Tolkien's The Hobbit a dozen or so times, then read The Lord of the Rings. These days, I often hear how Faramir was a dull, flat character, but I think that misses the symbolic role he took in the story -- that he was a model of a certain sort of personality. Anyway, I really admired Faramir. He was courageous, and smart, and understood what really mattered. He was, in short, the sort of person I could imagine wanting to become. And, I really admired Eowyn.
So, when the two of them fell in love, and kissed each other on the battlements, it affected me in a way that no other "love story" I'd encountered before had affected me. When I read the description of that kiss, chaste a description as it was, I felt the first thrill of the erotic that I can remember ever feeling. And it came in a story about two characters that I admired, falling in love, and proceeding to create a life together.
This was, in short, a big deal for me. And I'd grown up with a television set, depicting all sorts of love stories that had never meant anything to me. But Tolkien was different, because it was the kind of story I loved, and characters that were meaningful to me.
We're creatures of stories. Our memories are narratives that we revise and retell to ourselves, and we're forever seeking new stories, to suggest ways in which we can live our lives.
Why do I bring all this up? Because somewhere, there's some thirteen-year-old boy, much like me, only he's just starting to realize he likes other boys. He deserves the same thing I had: a story with someone he can imagine becoming, falling in love and finding happiness. What matters is the characters, not the full details of their lovemaking: a kiss can be enough to tell the story. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 20:48:23
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Very well said. Fiction (including roleplaying games) is a play space where people can audition personalities and ideas which they may reject or grow into; our ideas of what the world is like and what people are supposed to be is hugely influenced by cultural factors, and we're better off if that culture includes elements of real poetry that are worth aspiring to. David Gemmell has spoken of when he saved someone from a mugging because he realized the heroes of The Lord of the Rings would have done so too. I was comparably affected (just a few years older) by Vanye and Morgaine in C.J. Cherryh's novels.* Commercial decisions of book editors -- such as omitting or concealing gay characters -- that we adults can deal with and work around are not so harmless for children.
* published as The Morgaine Saga (omnibus of the first three) and Exile's Gate -- they belong on every list of 'standard fantasy'. |
Edited by - Faraer on 22 Sep 2004 20:49:58 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2004 : 17:08:28
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Thank you, FoolishOwl and Faraer, for those last two posts. VERY well said, both of you (and Ed and I both agree with your literary opinion of the Morgaine books, Faraer). Ed has told me that he often did foolhardy but noble things, as a very young lad, because that’s what characters he admired in books would do (standing up to bullies, facing down adults who were lying or blustering; that sort of thing . . . big stuff for a shy, bookish young boy to dare to attempt). A few years back, he mentioned that to me in the context of a movie we saw together, EXCALIBUR. Two simple lines from Patrick Stewart’s character took him back to those noble moments of youth, being scared but ‘knowing’ he was doing the Right Thing: “I saw what I saw. The boy drew the sword!” (Those familiar with the film will know the scene, and understand.)
Also, to Karth: sorry. Neither Ed nor I can make GenCon So Cal. Ed has three books and a stack of short stories and web columns to write by mid-December, and I have a similarly heavy editorial workload (textbooks, blech, no less).
Sigh. We’ll just have to get together for a game and console each other, I guess.
THO
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2004 : 17:28:26
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Hail!
Not to play holy roller or dis upon fictional heroes, which seem all that 21st century man finds himself left with, but this is one of the things that the stories of our heritage are suposed to provide us with. Whenever I did or do "bold" things formeost in my mind were the actions of my father or grandfather, the sacrifices they made, or perhaps did not make, and also broader cultural heroes like Beowulf "and" Bjarki, or Wiglaf, or Waldere, or Hrolf Kraki, or Penda or Alfred.
And while I have only mentioned those heroes most apparent to a straight young man, there are also plenty of women heroes ... beginning with ones mothers and aunts and ancestress and continueing on to women, some of whom Christian historians my have left without names, but whose deeds were substantial nevertheless. A particular Queen of the East Angles springs to mind ... the wife of the mightiest Anglo-Saxon King of that "age", and clearly his master and better. Queen Sigdrifa of Sweden and so forth. I bet if one was able to look hard enough, they might even find tales of homosexual relationships. Afterall, amongst the Teutonic folk men were swearing troth to each other and loving each other (lord-retainer), with great affection if the old poetry is to be believed, for at least as long as men and women have engaged in contractual relationships.
While its nice to be able to identify with the characters in a work of fiction, it is, ultimately, still a work of fiction. And are generally filed in the same part of the brain.
End of holy roll.
Shield of the Geats
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Thank you, FoolishOwl and Faraer, for those last two posts. VERY well said, both of you (and Ed and I both agree with your literary opinion of the Morgaine books, Faraer). Ed has told me that he often did foolhardy but noble things, as a very young lad, because that’s what characters he admired in books would do (standing up to bullies, facing down adults who were lying or blustering; that sort of thing . . . big stuff for a shy, bookish young boy to dare to attempt). A few years back, he mentioned that to me in the context of a movie we saw together, EXCALIBUR. Two simple lines from Patrick Stewart’s character took him back to those noble moments of youth, being scared but ‘knowing’ he was doing the Right Thing: “I saw what I saw. The boy drew the sword!” (Those familiar with the film will know the scene, and understand.)
Also, to Karth: sorry. Neither Ed nor I can make GenCon So Cal. Ed has three books and a stack of short stories and web columns to write by mid-December, and I have a similarly heavy editorial workload (textbooks, blech, no less).
Sigh. We’ll just have to get together for a game and console each other, I guess.
THO
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2004)
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