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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 18:39:18
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Some interesting points have been brought up in the Umara thread but were drifting into tangents. So I thought I'd start a new discussion thread here.
What is the nature of a Realms Deity?
Clearly they seem to be energy beings of some kind, entities powered (at least in the current age) partly or mostly by faith. They are unlike demons or devils in this regard, though both derive benefits from worship, it seems.
Portfolios appear to be transferable, either with or without the memories and experiences of the previous deity-holder included.
Memories and experience of a deity, particularly a long-lived one, apparently survive in some form even if a deity dies.
Human hosts appear to be important at times, but do not seem to change the essential nature of a deity. It seems that the deity's memories will eventually overwhelm the personality of a human host, unless that ascended mortal is a totally new deity who doesn't inherit a prior deity's memories.
Deities survive, either in reduced form or as vestiges, even after they die, so long as (apparently) even one mortal continues to worship them.
When deities fight and kill each other, portfolios can be taken. But what happens to the dead deity's memories and essence? Are these utterly destroyed or are they integrated but subsumed?
Realms deities can have children through the participation of mortals (or even other deities). Some of these end up as exarchs and some as heroic mortals. Why?
Anything I'm forgetting atm that could be discussed?
Do you like this conceptualization of deities in your game? The swapping portfolios, Avatars, and so forth?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 21:25:22
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Well. To point out the obvious, there is no rule. To make a rule would be to constrain any new deities or explanations of divine behaviour to that concept, something no one wants to do. That's wise in my opinion, though I am a bit conflicted. I usually like my details really clear and in no uncertain terms. But I can see why doing this with deities can be a good idea. It's the same thing as with types of magic. If you don't define the precise rules, it's much easier to keep the sense of wonder.
But if you want my usual take on deities in the Realms (and I base my multiverse in the Realms), here it goes: they are very powerful outsiders who have been given a job (portfolio) by an overdeity. Their nature can vary a lot, because "deity" in (my) D&D is a job, not really an intrinsic nature of a being, though that job tends to confer some particular boons and constraints that can alter the being's very essence. Deriving (a lot, but not all) power from worship and having their essence and memory somehow imprinted on the cosmos (and thus very difficult to completely erase) are part of the deal.
It's important here that having transcended a physical body, it is possible for deities to do many things that seem a bit counter-intuitive, like having distinct personalities who act at the same time in different places, or merging and unmerging with other deities, either completely or partially. Think of disembodied post-singularity intelligence, if you are into speculative sci-fi.
If you're interested I also have a framework for how deities project themselves and/or their power into different Spheres and planes, why some do it and why many do not, but that's kind of another subject as you asked about the Realms. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 12 Mar 2014 21:33:26 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 00:30:09
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I agree that having an Overdeity can be a powerful tool, in that it allows deities to be given roles/jobs that serve specific portfolios. It's certainly a time-saver and can be important for simplicity as well as conflicts with Avatars or actual Deities when play goes Epic.
Personally, though, I prefer really distant deities that rarely interact with mortals, perhaps a rare dream vision or a rosy glow on a temple holy item, and no Overdeity. No avatars, no mortals fighting the gods, but answers to prayers every now and then. This was possible with the Old Gray Box Realms, so long as I totally ignored deity-statting, but it's kind of hard to have this model now given all of the reveals about deities.
Mainly for this thread I just wanted a wide discussion about what people used and liked (or disliked), so everything is up for grabs to talk about IMO. :)
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 05:01:58
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One piece that has been kind of hinted at by several folks and always gotten some kind of knowing wink from Ed is that many Deity's Artifacts are somehow tied to the existence of the deity themselves and may or may not need to be guarded. Other deities seem to use a physical body for a similar purpose (examples being Mystra and Siamorphe) Examples of relics:
Crown of Horns - Myrkul
Black Lord's Cloak - Bane
wand of Orcus - Orcus
Skull Staff of the Necromancer - Velsharoon (homebrew notes: this skull staff was combined with the phylactery of Mellifleur <an amulet> during Velsharoon's ascension)
Other possibilities:
The crystal called the Third Eye of Savras as well as possibly the scepter of Savras in which he was imprisoned
Many of the devices found in "Prayers from the Faithful" may in fact be some kind of artifact imbued with divine power as some kind of protection for the deity in the way that Mystra imbued her chosen.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 07:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
(...)
Personally, though, I prefer really distant deities that rarely interact with mortals, perhaps a rare dream vision or a rosy glow on a temple holy item, and no Overdeity. No avatars, no mortals fighting the gods, but answers to prayers every now and then. This was possible with the Old Gray Box Realms, so long as I totally ignored deity-statting, but it's kind of hard to have this model now given all of the reveals about deities.
If I DM, my deities work like that too. It just happens that as a DM, or a person thinking about the Realms in my head, I like to be the guy looking at it from above with a model that explains it all perfectly. So to *me*, the deities are really very plain and not mysterious at all. I defined what they are myself, after all. But for most of those little denizens that populate this fantastic world inside my head, the deities are very mysterious indeed... |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 16:45:20
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@Mapolq I think that's the key, keeping things mysterious for NPCs and especially players we DM for, while not revealing too much about deity mechanics. As Ed once said a long time ago, once players know metaphysical details and deep truths about the gods, ascension and the like, it takes away from the immersion and mystery.
@Sleyvas Excellent points! Also, I think the Staff of Azuth would count for that list. His staff seems to be intimately tied to him, not just on an image level (wizardly man with classic staff) but also as a godly item of great power. It also makes me wonder about items like Lathander's mace "Dawnspeaker" or Chauntea's scythe.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 22:17:19
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The usual rule for artifacts is that (in addition to breaking the usual rule for magical items) they‘re strongly associated with Somebody Big. Oftentimes a deity whose history somehow interacts prominently with the artifact. From a gaming perspective, wielding an artifact thus becomes a greatly impressive thing with serious, lasting consequences - plus there‘s a helpful thematic context to launch adventures (use this artifact to kill that kind of enemy, etc).
I‘m not sure the reverse is true, that is, I don‘t think that destroying a deity-entangled artifact would actually diminish the deity in any real way. Although it might certainly affect that deity‘s worshippers profoundly, at least for a time. What would happen to Finder (a relatively recent and weak deity, who claimed Moander‘s divinity yet apparently none of Moander‘s other intrinsic traits) if his prized Finder‘s Stone were destroyed? Not much happens to mighty Lathander whenever another one of his (many) Tears is destroyed. One logical guideline would be that if a deity would indeed suffer great loss or damage when his artifact is destroyed, he would certainly be wary of this vulnerability and take active measures to prevent such an occurence. (Maybe that‘s why so many divine trinkets are secured within high temples?)
However ... most artifacts have a history of unending conflict with particular other artifacts. So I suppose that, say, the legendary Gauntlets of Steel Justice crafted to serve Tyr‘s worldy lawbringer could (frequently) come into conflict with the infamous Vengeful Overseer‘s Tyrannomanacles worn by Bane‘s strongest enforcer, causing these two deities (and their avatars/churches/etc) to violently oppose each other in some metaphorical-yet-unambiguous manner. I imagine that greater deities tend to have greater artifacts which typically trump the lesser artifacts of lesser deities. I also imagine that such artifacts are largely defined by the natures of their cognate deities, and their purposes will always be mutually aligned. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Mar 2014 22:28:59 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 23:26:52
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| Yeah, I don't see the destruction of these artifacts as destroying the deity. However, destruction of certain artifacts my significantly diminish said deity. Also, certain of these artifacts may be setup to be something like a phylactery for the deity (or perhaps a better translation would be a conduit for the deity's "soul" which is petrified on the astral). For instance, recently Dazzlerdal pointed out the "Balance of Belaros" which was created by a Tyrran priest named Belaros "the Old Lion of Justice" (possibly in coordination with several other priests) and that these priests all met Grimjaws himself on a mountaintop near where Tyr emerged for his famous procession. Could it be that this holy relic (artifact?) was actually used to channel a previously dead Tyr through offerings placed upon the balancing scales? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 07:05:50
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| I do not think the deities should be defined. They will exist differently in the imaginations of every author, players, DM, reader, game designer, etc. even if we try to define them and make some defined terms "canon" there will be differences in how they are percveived. Mortals were not meant to understand the Gods. I prefer individual authors and game designers to be able to advance plots how they choose without being constrained by rules on what deities are and aren't. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 22:11:22
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I note that Mask deployed a mortal minion (one of his Chosen, Erevis Cale) to some alternate universe-world-plane-place which was moments away from its final dissolution into some sort of Shar-like black hole. Erevis was tasked with recovering a piece of divinity Mask had stolen from Shar and cached in this dying place. This piece of divinity was stored in some sort of physical object/receptacle, although it later infused Erevis.
Mystra (that is, successor to Mystryl, predecessor to Midnight) cleverly cached away “shards of her power“, a rather innovative and daring concept back in those 1E/2E times, but now standard Realmsfare with technical rules about the Chosen/etc. |
[/Ayrik] |
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On the nature of Realms deities
