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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 22:21:58
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I remain cautiously optimistic about the 5e Realms. However, I will be wait until the book comes out before I buy anything. Of course, I own so much material now that if they do not do away with what happened in 4e I can still use the Realms as a setting and never need to buy another thing.
To be on the safe side though, my new Campaign is set in the Greybox era and using the early material.  |
Canon stops where the table begins. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 22:33:09
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| That's pretty much my approach Dark. I'll add to this the fact that there are so many settings available with material that can just be adapted to the rule set you use. For instance, if you want a Game of Thrones style game in the Realms, you can just purchase material from Green Ronin and adapt it. It's no more difficult than creating your own story arc and associated adventures AND you advance YOUR Realms wherever YOU want to. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 22:54:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Maploq, it's true Unther was thrown in to fit the various cultural 'themes' (which I liked, btw). The difference is that Unther was included from the beginning of the published Realms...removing it wasn't the way to go for 4e. And just dropping in a completely new cultures, land masses, etc. wasn't the way to go either.
I like the Old Empires too. The main difference between the adding of those and of Tymanther/Akanūl/etc. is that the Old Empires did not displace anything that existed before (well, except in Ed's head maybe). |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 24 Feb 2014 22:54:53 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 23:48:15
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Oh, and I am still optimistic, believe it or not... I also just happen to be a realist.
I WANT 5th edition to rock, and I think it can. I just hope they are up to the task; they are not starting at 'zero', they are starting in the negatives. That means it has to be pretty good just to achieve that 'zero' (ambivalent) status with RPGers. When the pendulum has swung far in the wrong direction, its a long way back.
But anything is possible. I remember when Apple was going bankrupt in the mid-90's (and Bill Gates gave them $150 million just to keep them afloat... otherwise the feds would be breathing down his neck with the anti-trust laws). It is great to be on-top, but BAD to be the only fish left in the pond.
My point is, D&D CAN be great again, as can The Forgotten Realms. Thats why I am still in 'wait & see' mode.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 00:07:31
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1) Nobody has presented a good argument that Unther and Mulhorand were any more brilliantly conceived than Tymanther and Akanul. People just got used to them because they had always been there. Now I totally understand mourning Halruaa, because that civilization was unique to the Realms.
2) There is plenty of criticism that has nothing to do with 4e making "handwave" changes. For instance, there has been a great deal of complaining about the Shades. They were set up to be major villains ever since the ROTA trilogy, which was a long time ago. Their feuds with Cormyr and Evereska were established in that series. And of course, Shar has always been presented as a major villain in this setting. Paul Kemp's "Twilight War" trilogy, where the Shades conquered Sembia (and Rivalen became a demigod), clearly foreshadowed their rise as an even greater threat.
It was all handled very well, but there has still been an endless stream of complaining about Shar and the Shades. We really should have all been asking why WOTC never makes use of Selune to check Shar's power. In Kemp's novels, Mask and Lathander thwart Shar's rise. In ESB's novels, Helm and Mystra oppose Shar. In the upcoming Sentinel, it seems to be Helm again. Only the Brimstone Angels books have shown any involvement from a Selune worshipper.
3) Be skeptical of 5e all you want, but the Sundering novels have been excellent. I would recommend them all. Plus, the new book from RAS (Night of the Hunter) is easily top 5 among his best novels. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 00:50:55
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quote:
1) Nobody has presented a good argument that Unther and Mulhorand were any more brilliantly conceived than Tymanther and Akanul. People just got used to them because they had always been there. Now I totally understand mourning Halruaa, because that civilization was unique to the Realms.
No one has to present a good argument as to how the Old Empires rank against Tymanther/Akanul. They weren't part of the established Realms for over 20 YEARS. Now, Tymanther and Akanul may be MUCH better than the Old Empires material...and the majority of people may agree that they were better...but that doesn't mean they should have replaced what had been there for decades of printed material.
As I said above, these new editions to the setting could have been better handled by placing them over seas and providing support for them there. There is a long established history of DnD working on multiple settings. Instead of doing that, they could support multiple continents in the same setting. It would have been more organic, more sensible (IMO anyway) and likely made 'most' people happy as opposed to simply replacing established cultures. YMMV.
Cheers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 01:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
And of course, Shar has always been presented as a major villain in this setting.
Untrue. Shar was barely mentioned before 3E put her in the limelight. Sure, she tried to impersonate Selūne and killed a deity we'd never heard of before his death, but that's hardly "major villain" stuff. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 09:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
the Old Empires did not displace anything that existed before (well, except in Ed's head maybe).
Which is the part that annoys me personally. Because of the new lore trumps old, canon blah,blah there are so many things from the original Realms I will never see. Ideas from others might be better, but they are not the original ideas. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 13:35:04
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| Shar was a decent villain just a tad overused. I'm really surprised we didn't see more of the reborn Bane myself. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 17:03:50
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I think they felt Bane was overused in 2e (his death, rebirth, and resurgence in power in 3e). I don't agree with that assessment, I'm just thinking they wanted to switch things up. Which is fine but as you said, Shar was really overused.
Jorkens, I agree with you there sir. There were so many good plot threads and lore abandoned in the transition to 4e that we will never see the conclusion for and the lore abandoned just irks me to no end. The more I think on these things the more I fall into the total reboot camp (not that it will happen). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 17:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Jorkens, I agree with you there sir. There were so many good plot threads and lore abandoned in the transition to 4e that we will never see the conclusion for and the lore abandoned just irks me to no end. The more I think on these things the more I fall into the total reboot camp (not that it will happen).
Again, just for the record, I am not thinking about the 4 edition here, I am thinking what has been done from the start of the Grey box. The authors ideas might have been good, but it will always be an irritating voice in the back of my head wondering about what was changed. Sheared worlds can work fine, but not the way it has been done with the Realms. The way 3ed. carpet bombed the world I actually think the 10 year jump was a good idea. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 21:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
the Old Empires did not displace anything that existed before (well, except in Ed's head maybe).
Which is the part that annoys me personally. Because of the new lore trumps old, canon blah,blah there are so many things from the original Realms I will never see. Ideas from others might be better, but they are not the original ideas.
Yup. The only way that would be both fair to both versions (I don't see what's the point, but assuming this is for some reason required) and actually improving the situation is: use Ed's own variant, reset or override everything as needed.
"No resets", however. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 25 Feb 2014 23:19:34 |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 21:47:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
That's pretty much my approach Dark. I'll add to this the fact that there are so many settings available with material that can just be adapted to the rule set you use. For instance, if you want a Game of Thrones style game in the Realms, you can just purchase material from Green Ronin and adapt it. It's no more difficult than creating your own story arc and associated adventures AND you advance YOUR Realms wherever YOU want to.
I usually pick and choose from many sources including picking and choosing what to use from Realms material. My only problem withe the 5e Realms is that it will still be using the advanced timeline from 4e. I had hoped for a complete reboot to the Greybox but that seems like it won't happen.
However, there has been rumors that 5e will allow you to play in any era so there may be hope for those of us who would rather play in the classic Realms. |
Canon stops where the table begins. |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 21:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, now this is scary.
If the grognards don't really feel like 5e is for them, and the 4e people now feel disaffected as well, exactly who are they making the 5e Realms for?
12-17 year old boys... the target audience of the Forgotten Realms IP. Since 4e's release, most of it's fans have aged-out of this demographic.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 21:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, now this is scary.
If the grognards don't really feel like 5e is for them, and the 4e people now feel disaffected as well, exactly who are they making the 5e Realms for?
12-17 year old boys... the target audience of the Forgotten Realms IP. Since 4e's release, most of it's fans have aged-out of this demographic.
I remember when video games first started coming out in the 70s. During the 80s they started having video game contests (there were likely some in the 70s too but they kinda took off in the 80s, some of them were actually on television as 'game shows'). Anyway, their target audience was teenage boys as well until they saw that many of the people showing up for contests were actually adults. They had to start adjusting their marketing to compensate.
So does WotC (or whomever owns DnD in the future). Annnnd, it is completely possible to target both new (teen) players and adults with good, creative content. I completely get the idea of keeping the game 'current' with what's considered 'hot' by today's teens. But, as an example, if DnD adjusted their vampires to be like those found in Twilight, just to make the game current, they'd be making a HUGE mistake.
There are some things that were handled well (the Shades were mentioned earlier and I agree it was handles pretty well...even though I never liked the idea of their return). But other things clearly were not (nuking the setting, for instance) regardless of their intention to make things better/current/appealing.
I'll go back to my earlier statement. Most players, I believe, don't mind an organic evolution to the setting. Major changes that WotC just HAS to install should be placed on another continent. You'll satisfy more people that way, IMHO. I WANT WotC to succeed with 5e. I WANT the fanbase (grognards) to be happy with the product. I WANT DnD to grow and bring in new players. I WANT WotC to make craptons of money in the process. And I am willing to support them with my hard-earned money if they get it more or less right. I don't expect a miracle, I don't expect to like everything. But I do expect some decent content (at least 75% of the time) and consistent lore (100% of the time...and it CAN be done). Just my two coppers, YMMV.
Oh, and these days I think the only way we can get consistent lore is to come to CK and see what other scribes are coming up with. Because the gods know the company isn't tying all of the threads of lore together with much success. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 22:55:40
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Which is the part that annoys me personally. Because of the new lore trumps old, canon blah,blah there are so many things from the original Realms I will never see. Ideas from others might be better, but they are not the original ideas.
Yup. The only way that would be both fair to both versions (I don't see what's the point, but assuming this is for some reason required) and actually improving the situation is: use Ed's own variant, reset or override everything as needed.
"No resets", however.
I think "original" is a bit overrated. Sure, there's lots of reasons to keeping to established lore and themes, and I'm totally up for that. I mean, the main reason I dislike the 4e Realms is that it's disregarded that simple concept. But does it matter that much - now, not in the early 90s - that Unther is not original when no one of us has seen Ed's version and Unther has slowly been integrated to the rest of Faerūn for twenty or so years? At this point, Ed's original version might feel more out of place than Unther would be now. And thankfully, Ed is still alive and about, so why not believe he can actually come up with something even better for the current Unther? |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 26 Feb 2014 22:57:44 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2014 : 23:11:23
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| Mapolq makes a good point. The Sundering may be the avenue b which much of Ed's personal campaign vision finds it's way into the published setting. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 26 Feb 2014 23:12:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 02:56:20
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I actually said something along those lines soon after the 2012 Gencon announcements. Not sure what made me think that - it may have just been the manner in which Ed was referring to stuff when he talked about 'the future'.
Or it may have just been the timely release of Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms - it could just be the 'running theme' behind the whole edition. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 03:13:21
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| Of course we originally thought "Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms" was going to be a book about Ed's campaign version of the Realms, but it was mis-marketed. Not that the end result was bad. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 04:18:38
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| Didn't THO or Ed say the Elminster's FR was supposed to be based off his home campaign but the entire core of the book was changed at the last moment (by someone else, not Ed) or some such? Quite possible I'm losing my mind, but I swear I read that somewhere. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 27 Feb 2014 04:19:19 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 04:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Didn't THO or Ed say the Elminster's FR was supposed to be based off his home campaign but the entire core of the book was changed at the last moment (by someone else, not Ed) or some such? Quite possible I'm losing my mind, but I swear I read that somewhere.
More than once WotC has change course mid-stream on a project.
That said, it would have been hard (even for the likes of Ed) to re-write the majority of the book at the last minute--and that's what he would have had to do because most of the book isn't about his campaign.
What I think people miss is that a lot of what's in Elminster's Forgotten Realms very likely is in Ed's home game, it's just been ported into the published setting and then extrapolated into material for use post-late 1300s and later.
As for the marketing of the book, I don't think it was mis-marketed so much as the brain trust here convinced themselves of what the book would be and then got mad when their assumption(s) turned out to be wrong. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 06:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
As for the marketing of the book, I don't think it was mis-marketed so much as the brain trust here convinced themselves of what the book would be and then got mad when their assumption(s) turned out to be wrong.
Just my observation, but I felt scribes here caught the gist of the book well before it released.
It helped that the marketing didn't go out of the way to sell it as an alternative. I believe Wizards made clear it was a supplement compatible with 4E Realms and not a parallel.
The "what if" concept arose from conjecture early on when little information was revealed about the book. When it arrived, it was as expected and there wasn't much of a huff about it.
Of course not everyone gets the collective 'brain trust' memo so we're bound to have someone asking about the alternative Realms conjecture well down the product release timeline. That happens with every product, even ones from decades ago. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 07:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The "what if" concept arose from conjecture early on when little information was revealed about the book. When it arrived, it was as expected and there wasn't much of a huff about it.
It wasn't so much "what if" as it was "it better damn well be Ed's campaign, or else!"
When reasonable people (like George Krashos) tried to explain what the book was and wasn't, they got snarled at. One scribe threatened to leave (but then came back) and others complained that they were "lied" to, etc.
Which is unfortunate, because it's a great book...and eventually people recognized the book for the good in it instead of griping about it. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Feb 2014 07:07:29 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 07:36:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
[It wasn't so much "what if" as it was "it better damn well be Ed's campaign, or else!"
That's utter BS and borderline lying Jerry and you know it.
People were optimistic and read what they wanted into the title and the little information given. I among many were a bit disapointed as it was not what I hoped for, but the book is still great and no one has said otherwise. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 07:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I think "original" is a bit overrated. Sure, there's lots of reasons to keeping to established lore and themes, and I'm totally up for that. I mean, the main reason I dislike the 4e Realms is that it's disregarded that simple concept. But does it matter that much - now, not in the early 90s - that Unther is not original when no one of us has seen Ed's version and Unther has slowly been integrated to the rest of Faerūn for twenty or so years? At this point, Ed's original version might feel more out of place than Unther would be now. And thankfully, Ed is still alive and about, so why not believe he can actually come up with something even better for the current Unther?
Its not overrated if the original Realms and its background is what fascinates you. As I said the add-ons might even be better than Ed's, but things as they are leaves me with a "what if..." in the back of my mind that irritates me. Now, that is just me and I am perfectly clear of the fact that my view is of the minority and if it was ever to happen it would most likely be a catastrophe both economically and for the fans. But the fact is that I have no business talking about this from any standpoint than my own and my position as a fan. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 08:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
That's utter BS and borderline lying Jerry and you know it.
Like hell it is.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I among many were a bit disapointed as it was not what I hoped for, but the book is still great (snip).
Glad you feel that way.
I'd like to get another one before too long, but something tells me we won't see another like it (if at all) until after 5E hits the shelves. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 19:53:51
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Well, unfortunately my own stance may back up what Jeremy is saying; I waited to hear from others what it was before purchasing... and I haven't bothered to purchase it.
To be perfectly frank, it didn't sound very useful to me. As for campaign ideas I have all I need (homebrew and old school) - I was looking for something more about the canon Realms, and since the entire thing exists in this 'timeless void' I have no interest in it.
Seriously, how 'canon' is canon that isn't dated? Thats about as vague as it gets. If thats how they are doing 'support for all eras' then I'm already decided.
Anyhow, I don't really recall anyone getting very bent-out-of-shape over it; at this point most of us are just "voting with our wallets". If something isn't what I am looking for, I just won't purchase it. I guess it depends on what side of an argument you are on (at the time) how you remember things (I really do recall mostly positive reviews of the book). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2014 20:00:05 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 20:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, unfortunately my own stance may back up what Jeremy is saying; I waited to hear from others what it was before purchasing... and I haven't bothered to purchase it.
To be perfectly frank, it didn't sound very useful to me. As for campaign ideas I have all I need (homebrew and old school) - I was looking for something more about the canon Realms, and since the entire thing exists in this 'timeless void' I have no interest in it.
Seriously, how 'canon' is canon that isn't dated? Thats about as vague as it gets. If thats how they are doing 'support for all eras' then I'm already decided.
Anyhow, I don't really recall anyone getting very bent-out-of-shape over it; at this point most of us are just "voting with our wallets". If something isn't what I am looking for, I just won't purchase it. I guess it depends on what side of an argument you are on (at the time) how you remember things (I really do recall mostly positive reviews of the book).
Well Elminster's Realms seemed to be much more of a "way people live" canon book.
I liked it for that.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 20:52:42
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Yes. Elminster's FR wasn't a book about dates and facts, it was a book about cultures and people. It had little in the way of obvious plots or events in it (there were some barely hidden ones). And there's no need to say "The way Cormyreans approach religion is more or less like this in 1351 DR, like that in 1368 DR, this other way in 1375 DR and that other way there in 1479 DR" unless there's a reason (a considerable change in the way Cormyreans view religion).
When talking about this stuff you can generalise. A historian can say general stuff about the Hittite culture, and obviously the Hittite culture must have changed in the centuries it existed, but that doesn't make the historian's points invalid, just not arbitrarily precise.
The point being, it's a different book than what we're used to. I wouldn't like to see only Elminster's FR type books, but if we can have all kinds of different books, then awesome. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 27 Feb 2014 20:56:46 |
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It was so much worse then I had imagined...
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