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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Apr 2017 :  22:53:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

In P&P, Mellifleur is made an alias of Velsharoon and their origins are not so different as to not be compatible. Of course, you can choose to keep them as separate.



There's a glaring issue with that though, in that Velsharoon uses the power of Talos explicitly to become a god. In monster mythology, its very much noted that Mellifleur accidentally stole his power from Bane (it specifically says "in Toril, they say Bane").

My fix for that on Toril was that Velsharoon took over Mellifleur's portfolios on Toril. I have it that Velsharoon used Mellifleur's phylactery in the act to become a lich (recovered during/ possibly after the ToT, whenever Mellifleur's avatar had to come to Toril). I also have it that Velsharoon was a binder who bound Karsus' vestige during the ritual (so he had two mortals who'd ascended to godhood, plus the aid of Talos). You'll find a couple threads around here where I've discovered that concept. The big question is whether or not Velsharoon controls the "godhood", or does Mellifleur actually, OR is there some shared control OR are the two gods totally unaware of the other OR are they going insane (think Azuth and Asmodeus kind of). In fact, one of the ideas I've played with is the idea that Velsharoon went to Abeir and Mellifleur was in Toril (and thus, it was actually Mellifleur killed by the Simbul).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

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455 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  00:59:39  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's intriguing.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
455 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  01:01:53  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm also a fan of the idea that we never quite know with the gods. So it could have been Talos and Bane --both hate Mystra, perhaps the story of Mellifleur is only half the story. Perhaps Velsharoon's full name is Velsharoon Mellifleur or vice versa or Mellifleur means something in another language.
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
569 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  07:31:45  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome work...I will subscribe to this topic! Congrats!!!

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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LordofBones
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433 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  11:31:15  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I'm also a fan of the idea that we never quite know with the gods. So it could have been Talos and Bane --both hate Mystra, perhaps the story of Mellifleur is only half the story. Perhaps Velsharoon's full name is Velsharoon Mellifleur or vice versa or Mellifleur means something in another language.



It's heavily implied that Mellifleur hijacked Kyuss's divinity, actually. The divine power that Nerull expended to elevate Kyuss to godhood was altered in some way that Kyuss ended up being stuck in an obelisk, it stands to reason that Mellifleur accidentally rerouting Kyuss's divinity to him is actually what happened. Monster Mythology mentions that Mellifleur hijacked divine power from Bane, true, but it's likely that the author pulled a name from a hat. The illithids imply that Mellifleur actually hijacked divinity from several evil deities, all of which are now less than pleased at him. AuldDragon mentions Falazure, only Falazure may have done so deliberately.

That said, Lathander and Ushas also share Morninglory, Waukeen shares the Marketplace Eternal with three other gods, and Auril and Loki share Winter's Hall.

Personally, I like to think that Death's Embrace itself is divided into two regions: the city of Hopelorn, where Mellifleur rules, and the vast necropolis-mausoleum of the Forsaken Crypt, where Velsharoon dwells.

Edited by - LordofBones on 12 Apr 2017 11:34:38
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  22:19:16  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will probably try to write Mellifleur in such a way that he can be interpreted as being the same deity as Velsharoon, or not, as appropriate for a DM's campaign. Either way, I'm not sure Mellifleur was truly worshiped in the Realms prior to Velsharoon's elevation, as that makes it easier for the pair to co-exist.

I may tie Mellifleur's apotheosis to Iyachtu Xvim, as that brings in a the mentioned Bane connection.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

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5980 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  00:46:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I'm also a fan of the idea that we never quite know with the gods. So it could have been Talos and Bane --both hate Mystra, perhaps the story of Mellifleur is only half the story. Perhaps Velsharoon's full name is Velsharoon Mellifleur or vice versa or Mellifleur means something in another language.



It's heavily implied that Mellifleur hijacked Kyuss's divinity, actually. The divine power that Nerull expended to elevate Kyuss to godhood was altered in some way that Kyuss ended up being stuck in an obelisk, it stands to reason that Mellifleur accidentally rerouting Kyuss's divinity to him is actually what happened. Monster Mythology mentions that Mellifleur hijacked divine power from Bane, true, but it's likely that the author pulled a name from a hat. The illithids imply that Mellifleur actually hijacked divinity from several evil deities, all of which are now less than pleased at him. AuldDragon mentions Falazure, only Falazure may have done so deliberately.

That said, Lathander and Ushas also share Morninglory, Waukeen shares the Marketplace Eternal with three other gods, and Auril and Loki share Winter's Hall.

Personally, I like to think that Death's Embrace itself is divided into two regions: the city of Hopelorn, where Mellifleur rules, and the vast necropolis-mausoleum of the Forsaken Crypt, where Velsharoon dwells.



Actually, we have an answer for that as well straight forward in monster mythology.

"What he did not know was that a major god of evil - who varies from pantheon to pantheon in different versions of the myth- was just about to raise a mortal priest to become a demigod through divine ascension. A great backwash of god-magic resonated with Mellifleur's rituals, and the wizard became a demigod instead. Thus, the Lich-Lord came into being by mistake, a glorious irony. Illithid sages have an extraordinary variant to this tale, claiming that the even involved a collective impulse among the gods themselves, so that several evil gods in different worlds were all carrying out the same operation at the same time, and their combined magic effects, summed and transformed, raised Mellifleur not just to deity status but to the status of a lesser god. This would certainly explain why in the Greyhaw campaign, Nerull is said to be the deity who created Mellifleur; in Toril, they say Bane, and in other worlds, other dark names are invoked."

So, perhaps it WAS multiple gods. Maybe it was the same god known by different names on different worlds (which would assume that Bane and Nerull are the same, so I choose to disregard that option). Perhaps the magic itself was kind of like the elven high magic that "reached forward and backward in time" for any magic that matched its criteria, such that Mellifleur actually was created in the different worlds at different times and drew off of different deities. The main thing to note is that the god in Toril and the god in greyhawk are not the same entity. They may have some linkage between them, but they are not the same. So, whenever Ao at the end of the time of troubles lays down the law and says "you will only have power based upon your number of worshippers".... umm, just how many liches do you think there were worshipping Mellifleur? Of those, how many were PASSIONATE in their worship? I'm going with not nearly enough to maintain his godly nature.

So, I'm imagining that after the ToT, Mellifleur was trapped. It should be noted that Mellifleur hid "many magical phylacteries" and perhaps he had one for each "version" of Mellifleur there was (i.e. the one for Greyhawk, the one for Toril, etc....). Now, the mystery I've never revealed was "where" was he trapped, as I've left it open (one idea I had was that Mellifleur's avatar had appeared amongst Larloch's liches).

Oddly, in working up my timeline recently for the United Tharchs of Toril, I'd started setting dates for some of this. I was doing this, because I was basically going to have Soorenar transferred to Abeir, and Velsharoon's Tower Terrible was there. In that tower, under his most powerful wardings, was the phylactery. So, along comes Yaphyll and Mythrell'aa (there's a backstory on their survival, just go with it) along with the high mage-priest of Velsharoon, and Mimuay (Zulkir Lauzoril's daughter, now age 30) a necromancer. Mimuay becomes the avatar of Velsharoon. Lauzoril's clone in Soorenar has its soul split by Velsharoon and it comes to life (similar to what happened with Manshoon, but local to this single clone). This ends up giving me 3 of the Zulkirs of Thay still alive in Abeir to play with.

Here's actually some of the timeline I'd come up with, since I have it handy:

1326 DR - The exiled Halruaan, Velsharoon the Vaunted, begins research on the rise of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. It is rumored that he visits Ironfang Keep and survives.

1345 - 1354 DR - The dread necromancer, Velsharoon the Vaunted, builds a tower, which he names the Tower Terrible, in the city of Soorenar in Chessenta. He then spends several years visiting Murghom and the Plains of Purple Dust seeking lore on the mortal life of Myrkul.

1358 DR - Time of Troubles - Using knowledge gained from the vestige of Karsus to gain better control over his arcane powers, the renegade red wizard, Velsharoon the Vaunted hunts down the avatar of Mellifleur inhabiting the body of a half-fiend lich rumored to be one of several grandchildren of the line of Garthelaun Darakh "the Goreslayer", fourth ruler of the Darakh Dynasty of ancient Narfell.

(NOTE: for the above, its unstated, but this means that Mellifleur's avatar is inhabiting a great grandchild of Orcus, a "god" of the undeath)

1359 DR - Intrigued by the machinations of his former ally and fellow renegade red wizard, Zhengyi the Witch-King of Vaasa, Velsharoon begins following the actions of Gareth Dragonsbane and company as they steal the wand of Orcus, slay an avatar of Tiamat, and soak the wand in its blood. Unbeknownst to Gareth and company, Velsharoon transports in and gathers a portion of the blood and bile of the dead avatar which have been infused with a remnant of the power of the wand of Orcus.

1364 DR - red wizards of the enclave of Soorenar, under the orders of Szass Tam, invade the home of the renegade red wizard, Velsharoon the Vaunted. This meets with disastrous results. The survivors, upon threat of utter annihilation, declare peace with the renegade red wizard and Velsharoon rewards them for their bravery by providing them several rituals involving undead creation. He however advises that the red wizards must not share these rituals with their cohorts in Thay "who have not dared enough in the field of necromancy". The red wizards request the protection of Zulkir Lauzoril against the wrath of Szass Tam. Lauzoril and the other Zulkirs chastise Tam for threatening the security of their enclave over a matter that he should have handled himself.

1366 DR - Velsharoon the Vaunted enters the Dire Wood of the High Forest. Although challenged by the arcanist Wulgreth and other magical obstacles, Velsharoon obtains a bottle of the pure heart's blood pumping from the Karsestone.

1368 DR - The renegade red wizard and Halruaan exile, Velsharoon the Vaunted, assaults an ancient ruin on Damara's northwestern border, rumored to be named Jiksidur, and slays a gold dragon and its cloud giant guardians . It is rumored that he butchered the dragon on the spot, taking its stone-filled gizzard and brewing it in a cauldron containing blood of the Karsestone, the mixed blood and bile of the avatar of Tiamat, and the bone powder of the former avatar of Mellifleur. Several weeks later, using the Phylactery of Mellifleur and the Skull Staff of the Necromancer in a modified Ritual of Endless Night, Velsharoon ascends to godhood with the sponsorship of the deity Talos. The red wizards of Soorenar are some of the first converts, and many former priests of Myrkul in Thay flock to the city in order to turn the land surrounding the Tower Terrible into a temple complex.

1384 DR - Zulkir of Divination, Yaphyll warns the Zulkir of Illusion that she foresees Mythrell'aa's death in the near future.

1385 DR - After receiving a vision from Leira herself, Mythrell'aa decides it is time to fake her own death and attend to matters in Luneira. Tharchioness Dmitra Flass is elected to become the next Zulkir of Illusion, but is later killed by Malark Springhill.

1385 DR - Zulkir of Divination, Yaphyll, is forced by Zulkir of Necromancy, Szass Tam, to use her most powerful divination to see into the future. Unbeknownst to Tam, she is forced to "split herself and send one half of herself into the future" and this future portion is outside of Tam's control. However, this future self also is touched by the Spellplague.




Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  01:39:34  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having Mellifleur ascend with multiple "mortal" liches on multiple worlds at multiple times is definitely something I plan to drop in, but I think that *if* Mellifleur and Velsharoon are separate, that scenario is very unlikely. However, if the two are the same, then I think that scenario is *very* likely: As liches ascend, they merge with Mellifleur himself, and the new lich identity is subsumed.

I actually think the illithid tale is the most likely, and that could still happen over time; I plan to make it possibly connected to both Iyachtu Xvim and the battle of Mount Deismaar on Cerilia, and I'll look for other circumstances that might apply.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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USA
5980 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  01:43:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

I will probably try to write Mellifleur in such a way that he can be interpreted as being the same deity as Velsharoon, or not, as appropriate for a DM's campaign. Either way, I'm not sure Mellifleur was truly worshiped in the Realms prior to Velsharoon's elevation, as that makes it easier for the pair to co-exist.

I may tie Mellifleur's apotheosis to Iyachtu Xvim, as that brings in a the mentioned Bane connection.

Jeff



Oh, another tie in that CAN be applied besides what I've already mentioned as well from 1368 DR . Its tied to the Finder's Bane novel.

This sets the year in GHotR - although its a little incorrect as to what happened
"Walinda, priestess of Bane, attempts to restore the dead god to life by retrieving the Hand of Bane, a lost artifact of evil. Ultimately her plans are thwarted by Joel, the Rebel Bard, and the Hand of Bane is destroyed."

What really happened was Walinda had the Hand of Bane. She was going to use it to resurrect Bane along with a Banelich which held a portion of Bane's divinity. The Banelich said some sexist comment about women not being worshippers of Bane in his day and slaps her and says that he'll do the ritual himself. The Banelich didn't realize that the ritual required a LIVING worshipper of Bane AND that the person performing the ritual couldn't be performing it on themselves. The Banelich turns to Walinda and tries to get her to buy in. She smashes the "Hand of Bane". The Banelich then fights with some followers of Finder and its phylactery is smashed (this essentially releases the essence of Bane "to the cosmos").

You could try to work in that Velsharoon and Talos timed their ritual as well to take and draw on this energy just as the banelich dies. Personally, that feels a little forced to me, AND it doesn't fit with the whole story that Mellifleur is constantly looking over his shoulder for the god that he stole power from, because at that point Bane's dead.

That being said, you COULD have Velsharoon using divination know that "Bane" will die on that day and know that he can recreate the accident that Mellifleur performed years prior (with information that Talos provides, information provided by Karsus <who may have studied Mellifleur's ascension>), and so Velsharoon acquires the phylactery of Mellifleur since its attuned to stealing from Bane.

Its not until a year later (1369 DR) that Xvim frees himself from Zhentil Keep. Three years later "Bane" frees himself "Xvim" ... which honestly I like Wooly's argument that Xvim took the name of Bane.


Another really odd addition that you COULD try to tie into all of this as well, since no dates are given.... 1368 is also the year that Cyric read his own book {or as I prefer to state it, when Cyric read the book that was the avatar of Leira... since Godsbane/Mask (the lord of intrigues) didn't kill Leira (the goddess of lies) as the two were running a longer con game }. When you start tying Leira into this along with the creation of a new god of magic (necromancy) and start playing with the idea that Leira, Savras, and Mystra 1.0 had something in the works.... then it can get really interesting... BUT it also stretches the bounds of believability for some.

Of course, all this does is establish the concept that "Mellifleur" existed prior to 1368 and that "Velsharoon" later ascended and "destroyed" Mellifleur. We can "assume" that based on Ao's new laws after the ToT that Mellifleur had few followers based on his portfolios and thus was on the verge of deific death for lack of worship. That's the story that the people would "know". Now, what ACTUALLY happened in the godly sphere can be a lot of things
(i.e. just gonna throw out some concepts

1) Velsharoon performs the ritual. Velsharoon's in charge. He hates Tam and makes Tam's days suck.
OR
2) Velsharoon performs the ritual... his spirit is used to power the god up..... Velsharoon's persona is tossed to the side and Mellifleur's driving. Mellifleur uses the name of Velsharoon and the story of Velsharoon to fuel new worshippers.
OR
3) Velsharoon ascends but both deific spirits are tied to the same phylactery so both minds can actually create "avatars" and control the godhood. This can explain Velsharoon's erratic behavior where he's "known" to be flirting with Mystra, Shar, and Talos. SIDENOTE HERE: IF Velsharoon had bound the vestige of Karsus as well during the ascension for guidance... you see where I'm going... triply insane?


OR
4) Same as 3, but throw in blindness by the gods when it comes to the workings of the other. They literally don't realize that the other exists (or if they do, they have to work out what the others are doing based on the reactions they get from others)... kind of like godly schizophrenia.

Note, I've kind of leaned towards this last option. It gives me a little more viability to some options when the spellplague happens.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Apr 2017 02:05:45
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  02:29:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SPOILER ALERT FOR THE LAST BRIMSTONE ANGELS NOVEL

Oh, and just a further note on the "godly schizophrenia" idea. I've mentioned it a lot over the past few years, so I was surprised to essentially see it start happening.... but with Asmodeus and Azuth, in the latest Brimstone Angels novels. In their scenario it took almost a hundred years before it started coming to a head. Interestingly enough, its during the rough timeframe of the "sundering" that they're split out again (or some might say that Azuth is reemerging from where he's been entrapped as a result of the end of the sundering). It also required the "death" of another divinity (Nanna Sin) to fuel this separation in this instance.

In what I'm working on, its the spellplague that actually breaks up Velsharoon and Mellifleur. Velsharoon goes to Abeir. Mellifleur stays in Toril, using Velsharoon's name to stay alive. The Simbul kills Mellifleur (as she's directed to by the remnant of the divinity of the Yuir deity "The Simbul"?)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  02:38:26  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I won't be expanding on Velsharoon when I work on Mellifleur, as there's already a write-up for him, and the events that I would mention regarding Mellifleur would be both old and non-concrete. I don't plan to say any specific event was involved in the creation of Mellifleur, only that certain events may have been.

One of the issues with merging Mellifleur and Velsharoon is that Mellifleru is multispheric and more powerful--there's little reason to believe Velsharoon would be the dominant personality. IMO, if one were subsumed, it would be Velsharoon.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  02:46:42  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't the only thing linking the two that Velsharoon has used "Mellifleur" as an alias? I had just imagined that Velsharoon performs the same sort of divine role on Toril as Mellifleur does on other planes, and sometimes uses the name of Mellifleur to try and riff off some of the older god's glory. We have other examples of gods on Toril doing this sort of thing - we know Umberlee sometimes grants spells under the alias Panzuriel to make use of that gods' worshippers, as Panzuriel is not active on Toril.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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LordofBones
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  05:10:32  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My own personal thoughts are that the two powers have a decent working relatioonship; Mellifleur uses Veelsharoon's name to deflect attention from his own enemies, while Velsharoon uses the older god's name to break into the untapped worship of new prime worlds and get out from under Mystra's thumb as a single sphere power. He'll probably end up as a general power of necromancy, in particular black necromancy.

Worship isn't actually that necessary for a god to maintain his deific strength. Urdlen and Kanchelsis are both Intermediate Powers on par with Lolth, and Kanchy in particular has no priests. Likewise, Mellifleur has no priests, but teaches prospective and worthy candidates for lichdom. Evening Glory is effectively the goddess of necrophilia and she's a lesser power.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  15:56:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Isn't the only thing linking the two that Velsharoon has used "Mellifleur" as an alias? I had just imagined that Velsharoon performs the same sort of divine role on Toril as Mellifleur does on other planes, and sometimes uses the name of Mellifleur to try and riff off some of the older god's glory. We have other examples of gods on Toril doing this sort of thing - we know Umberlee sometimes grants spells under the alias Panzuriel to make use of that gods' worshippers, as Panzuriel is not active on Toril.



Right, so in theory, whatever hold Mellifleur had in Toril is gone. His separate "deific energy" here doesn't necessarily copy back to the other versions of him in other crystal spheres. So, if Velsharoon subsumes it (or is subsumed by it... or they merge... or they separately control it... or godly schizophrenia occurs... or whatever weird cosmic thing happened), the other "Mellifleurs" elsewhere aren't affected. Just like Tyr being blinded in the realms doesn't blind him elsewhere, nor does his "death" in the realms mean he died elsewhere.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
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Posted - 15 Apr 2017 :  08:46:35  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or Mellifleur isn't worshiped in Toril. Really, Mellifleur isn't worshipped anywhere. Neither is Kanchelsis.

Mellifleur seems to be making a name for himself as a mentor-figure for liches, while Kanchelsis draws power from vampires and vampirism. Chances are that liches deviated to Myrkul, Jergal and other undead-friendly deities before Velsharoon's ascension. It could explain why Velsharoon's using Mellifleur's name; Ao's decree constrains him, so he's looking into ways to expand as a multispheric deity of black necromancy.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  02:38:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Or Mellifleur isn't worshiped in Toril. Really, Mellifleur isn't worshipped anywhere. Neither is Kanchelsis.

Mellifleur seems to be making a name for himself as a mentor-figure for liches, while Kanchelsis draws power from vampires and vampirism. Chances are that liches deviated to Myrkul, Jergal and other undead-friendly deities before Velsharoon's ascension. It could explain why Velsharoon's using Mellifleur's name; Ao's decree constrains him, so he's looking into ways to expand as a multispheric deity of black necromancy.



Couple problems with that. Mellifleur is noted as being in Toril in the document where he's first created with a relation to Bane. So, he was here. Many liches may have worshipped some other deity besides Mellifleur (hell, why not Shar, Hoar, Talos, etc...), but it wouldn't have been Myrkul or Jergal really at the time of Velsharoon's ascension, since that was 1368 and Myrkul was dead and Jergal was little known.

The part where Mellifleur would have lost power due to lack of worshippers would have only been after the ToT (1358). Prior to that, at least in Toril, he would have been able to survive SOMEHOW just because he was a god (guessing Ao gave out divine welfare to those beings which became a god but couldn't support themselves in the years prior to the ToT). I can actually see vampires and hags worshipping Kanchelsis and Cegilune (they'd be lean mind you, but...), whereas in theory liches are a lot more rare AND a lot more likely to choose a different deity.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  03:12:35  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mellifleur could have been known, but not worshiped widely enough to have access to Realmspace, with his followers being limited to 2nd level priest spells. That's not an issue if most of his followers are wizards and wizardly liches.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  04:43:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sleyvas, that whole thing read like a fantasy soap-opera, and I got completely lost (turns out Richard had a secret twin brother he never knew about, who had a one-night stand with Wanda twenty years ago, in which she conceived John, who has now returned to Genericville and doesn't realize Paula is his long-lost half-sister...) You and I are usually on the same page with a lot of things, but that was like a 'who's who' of obscure Faerunian personages and quasi-outsiders.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one (Occam's razor... and Occam was an original member of the Circle of Nine... before it became 'Eight')

So, I'm going to have to side with 'Velsharoon ascended, and is (sort-of) subsumed by Mellifleur'. I think the story about how Melifleur came to be - that he was doing some sort of ritual and stole some power from Nerull or whoever - is the original Mellifleur. I think this somehow turned him into an 'archtype' god (just like there are many versions of Corellon, etc, on different worlds). The way I picture 'archtypes' working is that they are like a 'god of gods', in that the gods that are individuals on their own worlds are really just avatars (I've dubbed these Ubertars) of the archtype. I really came up with a bunch of that to explain non-human deities back in the day, and then with all the 4e cr... stuff, I was able to fine-tune it regarding Bane.

As some of you know from my other posts, I picture there being a 'First Bane' (which may have been FR's) - he was 'THE Bane'. Then he went multispheric, and has trysts with mortals on various worlds, and thus creates little 'demigod copies' of himself all over the place (Iyatchu Xvim on Toril). Eventually, these exarchs (demigods, Chosen, Agents, 'Saints', etc) build up their own following (once again, Xvim), and when they get strong enough, 'Big daddy Bane' returns in all his bloody glory, bursting out of the chest of his offspring (he's the ultimate 'dead-beat dad). Who knows? There may have even been a few female 'Banes' running around on some worlds.

Anyhow, I came up with all that to try and explain some of the weirdness with Core Bane and FR Bane (who are slightly different), and also fold the Iyatchu Xvim stuff into it. I even compared it to how Doctor Doom went off for awhile in Marvel comics (world/planes hopping, of all things), and most of the beings of the Marvelverse were unaware of this because he left a clone and some robots in charge (who didn't know they were clones and robots). Then he shows back up, bitch-slaps his wayward 'toys', and says, "Honey, I'M HOME!" I picture Bane working very much the same way. Except Doom sired little extra-dimensional 'Kangs' all over the place... same difference.

But I think Mellifleur is using a similar mechanism. Multispheric deities are these 'archtypes', and as such they can 'seed' worlds they want to get a foot-hold in. It could even be using these 'lesser phylactories' (*cough* Horcruxes *cough*) - he sends an avatar to these worlds, and each avatar has their own phylactory. Then some mortal finds that (as Mellifleur planned), and working with a local god (because of the 'whispering' coming from the phylactory), he gets sponsored to become the new 'lich deity' on that world. Except one problem, just as Bane's kids had a little piece of daddy inside of them (divinity), the phylactoy does the same thing for Mellifleur, and just like Bane, he can 'assume control' whenever he wants.

However, in a LOT of cases, Archtypes allow their sphere-specific manifestations (my 'ubertars') to retain a semblance of independence and autonomy (just as gods sometimes do this with their Avatars). Velsharoon still thinks he is Velsharoon, and for all intents and purposes, he is. Unless Vel becomes extremely powerful in his own right (something I doubt a god of liches could do, considering the lack of appropriate worship), Mellifleur could 'reel him in' at any time, and subsume him. There are many reasons why he wouldn't do that (not the least of which Overgods probably not liking gods using this 'back door' to get established in a Crystal Sphere), just as I am sure there are tons of deities all over the D&Dverse who are completely unaware that they are part of other Archtypes - gods work best when their enemies (and friends, who can become enemies on a dime) don't know all the cards they are holding.

Which is how I explain a lot of all this 'they are the same god, but yet they're not' BS we get in D&D. It means that all versions of a story can be true (including multiple 'creation Myths').

So Mellifleur is Mellifleur and Velsharoon is Velsharoon... for now. It doesn't mean Vel is doomed, though (well... no more 'doomed' than having become a lich) - if he comes to realize his situation he might be able to break-free from his primary (as I am sure many gods have done throughout the universe) with the help of other gods, or even an artifact or three. In the case of 'good' deities, some of them may simply 'cut the strings' voluntarily.

And for some reason, now I am reminded how vampires work in most settings (a 'creator vamp' that controls all the ones beneath him/her, like some sort of dark 'Pyramid/Ponzi scheme'). Hmmmmmm... vampires are really selling Amway. LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 18:26:38
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  04:56:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was longer than I wanted it to be.

Bottom line is, the hazy 'maybe they are, maybe they aren't' explanation works for me, when it comes to things cosmological. And if you just ignore all my explanations of the 'why' it works that way (why its canon that things don't actually need to be 'canon'), it just boils down to that, which is what Jeff and Tom said (minus my headache-inducing cosmic corporation theory).

No need to drag Karsus, Orcus, Merlin's cousin, by sister's ex-husband, half of Tatooine, etc, into it (although I was a little disappointed you left out Elvis Presley - FR needs a good 'Elvis Sighting').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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LordofBones
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  08:13:47  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Or Mellifleur isn't worshiped in Toril. Really, Mellifleur isn't worshipped anywhere. Neither is Kanchelsis.

Mellifleur seems to be making a name for himself as a mentor-figure for liches, while Kanchelsis draws power from vampires and vampirism. Chances are that liches deviated to Myrkul, Jergal and other undead-friendly deities before Velsharoon's ascension. It could explain why Velsharoon's using Mellifleur's name; Ao's decree constrains him, so he's looking into ways to expand as a multispheric deity of black necromancy.



Couple problems with that. Mellifleur is noted as being in Toril in the document where he's first created with a relation to Bane. So, he was here. Many liches may have worshipped some other deity besides Mellifleur (hell, why not Shar, Hoar, Talos, etc...), but it wouldn't have been Myrkul or Jergal really at the time of Velsharoon's ascension, since that was 1368 and Myrkul was dead and Jergal was little known.

The part where Mellifleur would have lost power due to lack of worshippers would have only been after the ToT (1358). Prior to that, at least in Toril, he would have been able to survive SOMEHOW just because he was a god (guessing Ao gave out divine welfare to those beings which became a god but couldn't support themselves in the years prior to the ToT). I can actually see vampires and hags worshipping Kanchelsis and Cegilune (they'd be lean mind you, but...), whereas in theory liches are a lot more rare AND a lot more likely to choose a different deity.




It's worth noting that Monster Mythology states he may have siphoned power from Bane, not that he's actually worshipped in Toril. Mellifleur is called out as being a deity without any priests, so Torilian liches probably know him as an abstract figure rather than a true god.

Mellifleur may not even want to be worshipped in Toril, since it'd put him in Bane's crosshairs. Nerull is at least far more distant, and hates Mellifleur the way he hates everybody else.

Maybe, however, the truth is something else: Mellifleur arranged for Velsharoon's divinity, because as god of liches, Mellifleur is empowered by successful lichdom. Velsharoon doesn't actually compete with Mellifleur, but his portfolio complements Mellifleur's.

Or maybe they're just housemates who don't see each other much other than a muttered 'hello" when they come out of their tower/crypt for a cup of larva coffee.
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  18:15:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, to reference my above post (where I forgot to make this point therein) - there are (at least) TWO Banes, technically (some might say three, counting Iyatchu Xvim).

Archtype 'Mellifleur' may have borrowed power from archtype (Core) 'Bane', and 'scholars' could just be assuming the Bane involved was FR's Bane (who may - and probably is - the 'original' {primary} Bane). Or a 'Bane' from yet another world (that would actually make more sense, because the only time FR's Bane wouldn't have been 'THE Bane' would be during Xvim's tenure).

The only other way this all makes sense is if Talos was Bane (another avatar/aspect?) On some levels that would also make Bane Gruumsh, and although thats a fun possibility, its starting to become convoluted again. I personally like toying with the idea that the original Bane (FR's Bane) was the offspring of Orcus and a human female (thus his half-orc visage). Of course, that's not relevant to the conversation (although it could be, if we tried to also bring Orcus back into this, in some sort of relative way).

Which is funny, because I've always toyed with the idea of Orcus having originally been part of the Orc pantheon (just because of the name). It may be possible to reconcile everything if we also say Orcus is either another aspect/Ubertar of Gruumsh who was killed-off on some world, but managed to somehow stay in a half-life state, and HE is actually the Archtype, and Mellifleur AND Velsharoon are both aspects of him. Or Orcus was the original 'Bane', who was killed, and now all the 'little Banes' (including FR's) are now autonomous because of the weird set of circumstances surrounding a deity and undeath (something that should not be possible - just look what having an undead clone did to Manshhoon's own clones). This reminds me of an episode of Buffy, when 'The Slayer' died, and a new one was activated... except Buffy was brought back and there was a 'glitch' that enabled two slayers to be active at once.

So maybe when Gruumsh was Talos for a time, thats when he 'helped' Velsharoon (although the timeline would be off). Still not perfect, because Grummsh is not Bane (even if there is a 'familial' resemblance).

Just checked Wikipedia - what if Nerull was the first 'Bane' ("The bane of mankind")? It says that The Raven Queen killed him in 4e. What if the baneling (*ugh*) that he seeded on Oerth then took up his Bane mantel, in much the same way Xvim did on Toril? Timeline-wise that works, I think. Nerull has all these little 'Banes' running around, similar to how Asmodeus has all his archfiends under him, and then he gets blind-sided by the Raven Queen (who may or may not be in FR in 5e), and all his offspring are freed to do as they please. Some continue to work under the guise of 'Bane', while others try to make changes to their religions (heck, one may have even 'gone good' for all we know). The makes being 'a Bane' more like a title, and some have just chosen to keep it now (as FR's Bane has - it works because we really don't know if that was his real name while mortal... I doubt it).

So... ummm... did I just figure out that Velsharoon may have been a 'failed Bane'?

And if so, does that make Mellifleur one as well? And why? Could it be Nerull was killed by the Raven Queen (sometime just prior to 4e) while he was raising these two up? Is that why they wound-up as 'undead gods'? Now I want to connect him to Orcus even more (after poking fun at Sleyvas for going this route ) The only way I can see all of this working is that when she killed Nerull - probably sometime in the 1e/2e/3e era - he had contingencies in effect, and also because of his multispheric status he couldn't truly 'die', so instead he was cast back in time and became Orcus.

And if I wanted to weave all of this further together, and use some of my 'Theory of everything' Over-cosmology, then Nerull might be Gruumsh's father, making him Mćlkith the Accursed (all Dökkálfar - the proto-orcs, NOT drow). Considering his temperament, that makes prefect sense to me. Thus 'Orcus' is actually the 'father of orckind', which is really cool. I guess Nerull and Orcus always avoided each other to avoid any paradoxes. LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 18:29:27
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  18:40:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Holy crap!!! Guess what I just found on Wikipedia regarding Orcus?

quote:

The article "Setting Saintly Standards" by Scott Bennie in Dragon #79 (November 1983) mentions on page 29 that Saint Bane the Scourger attacked and nearly slew Orcus on his home plane; for his valor, Bane was rewarded with sainthood.


What the heck... its almost like they had this planned all the way back in 1983!

If the 'Banes' were his seeded offspring, one of them - Saint Bane - may have helped The Raven Queen kill Nerull, thus causing part of the paradox that created Orcus.

Do I win an original signed copy of Chainmail now? I solved D&D.

EDIT:
Further reading now has me wanting to reconcile Kiaransalee with The Raven Queen (in my homebrew stuff I have it where Graz'zt was originally Auraushnee's {Lotlth} brother, so I really like where all of this is taking me now).

EDIT2: I need to start a new/separate scroll. This is getting just TOO GOOD. Orcus is Tenebrous, and Tenebrous killed and absorbed an aspect of an ancient love goddess named Tomeri. What if THAT goddess was the archtype for the love/beauty goddesses I was talking abut in another thread? Maybe Sune getting involved in cosmic politics and helping to imprison Cyric wasn't so out-of-character as I had thought.

EDIT3:
...and Orcus and The Raven Queen hate each other's guts - how could a fairly 'newly arisen power' like the RQ have 'ancient enmities' with Orcus? The deeper I dig, the more my wild theories are making sense. Both of them have had other names, and they are enemies with all the right people for much of this to work (not that it takes much to be enemies with an archfiend LOL).

All these 'undead gods' are all part of some sort of looping paradox, and thats how they can exist when they shouldn't.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Apr 2017 04:38:06
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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  02:54:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Holy crap!!! Guess what I just found on Wikipedia regarding Orcus?

quote:

The article "Setting Saintly Standards" by Scott Bennie in Dragon #79 (November 1983) mentions on page 29 that Saint Bane the Scourger attacked and nearly slew Orcus on his home plane; for his valor, Bane was rewarded with sainthood.


What the heck... its almost like they had this planned all the way back in 1983!

If the 'Banes' were his seeded offspring, one of them - Saint Bane - may have helped The Raven Queen kill Nerull, thus causing part of the paradox that created Orcus.

Do I win an original signed copy of Chainmail now? I solved D&D.

EDIT:
Further reading now has me wanting to reconcile Kiaransalee with The Raven Queen (in my homebrew stuff I have it where Graz'zt was originally Auraushnee's {Lotlth} brother, so I really like where all of this is taking me now).

EDIT2: I need to start a new/separate scroll. This is getting just TOO GOOD. Orcus is Tenebrous, and Tenebrous killed and absorbed an aspect of an ancient love goddess named Tomeri. What if THAT goddess was the archtype for the love/beauty goddesses I was talking abut in another thread? Maybe Sune getting involved in cosmic politics and helping to imprison Cyric wasn't so out-of-character as I had thought.

EDIT3:
...and Orcus and The Raven Queen hate each other's guts - how could a fairly 'newly arisen power' like the RQ have 'ancient enmities' with Orcus? The deeper I dig, the more my wild theories are making sense. Both of them have had other names, and they are enemies with all the right people for much of this to work (not that it take much to enemies with an archfiend LOL).

All these 'undead gods' are all part of some sort of looping paradox, and thats how they can exist when they shouldn't.



Yeah, I went there with the Raven Queen and Kiaransalee for a while too. I was playing with the general idea that she forgot who she was and had a made up identity come into play against her own will.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  05:05:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re-reading all of that, its almost like 'Banes' are multi-spheric, anti-Chosen.

And just like what they did in the 4e/5e Sundering (which I really dislike), there could be all different powered 'Banes' running loose in the multiverse, just as there are Chosen. There's quite a bit of room within the title 'demigod' (the levels 0-5 DvR). A zeroeth level 'Bane' (or Chosen for that matter) would be little more than a 'Superhero' type character, a'la Hercules, while a 5th lvl DvR would be practically a lesser god (with all the 'bells & whistles' that go with that). Very few of them would be Mystra-class Chosen (who were probably all lev. 5's back in the day). It takes a lot of power to create chosen (I would imagine its something akin to loosing one of your avatars), so most gods would not have the power to spare like that (as Mystra would have had).

I really wish the Sundering novels would have used something other than 'Chosen', which now means the same thing as exarch, I suppose. It basically just means 'larger than life' (more than mortal) - demipower status levs 0-5 DvR. We could have created five or six specific names for each 'rank' within the exarch tier. For example, maybe lev 0 should be 'Exalted', and level 1 could be 'Ascended', etc. They should have saved 'Chosen' for level 5.

0 Exarch
1 Exalted
2 Ascended
3 Saint
4 Seraph
5 Chosen

Something like that could have worked, but two of those have become generic for the whole group. Too bad 'Archon' is in use elsewhere. What was that word in PS - 'Proxie'? Except I'm thinking that would have to be the highest level, even over 'Chosen'. Then we can ditch Exarch and push the others down. Each level would require different amounts of power-expenditure on the part of the 'investing' god. I suppose more than one god could work together (maybe thats why Mystra gets so many - she works with the other deities that are part of the Harper sponsors).

So now I am wondering if a Magister would fit in there, maybe as a Saint or Seraph? I'm pretty sure they fall below 'Chosen'.

Thus, with this new format, Exarch would just = 'Agent' (of a god).

EDIT:
Looking it over, now I'm thinking that perhaps Chosen shouldn't be at the top, Saint should be, and maybe a 'Proxie' is just the planer term for Saints. Of course, that means I am (at least) one title shy again.

EDIT2:
Thesaurus is my best friend.

0 Favored (Blessed)
1 Paragon/Exemplar (Sacrosanct)
2 Exalted (Ascended)
3 Seraph (Transcendent)
4 Saint/Prophet (Hallowed)
5 Proxie/Demigod/Archite (Anointed)

Thus, 'Exarch' and 'Chosen' can be used for the entire spectrum, but the former is more often used for the low end of the tier, and the latter for the high end of the tier (but any position would be still considered correct - they are generic terms for the whole group).

Now I feel better and can go to bed.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Apr 2017 05:50:01
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  08:56:35  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd argue if anything an Exarch is exponentially more powerful than a Sundering Chosen - for instance, Fzoul was an exarch, and very powerful; yet check out this quote on the Sundering Chosen from Legacy of the Crystal Shard:
quote:
The Chosen active in the Sundering are not necessarily powerful, high-level characters—in a time such as this, even the least servants can make significant differences. Most of them have only minor abilities granted by their deities. A Chosen of Amaunator might have darkvision or be able to stave of the worst of the effects of the cold. A Chosen of Moradin might have enhanced dwarf racial abilities. Being a Chosen shouldn’t be unbalancing to the game.

I'm currently half-way through The Adversary, and at one point a character makes it very clear she doesn't like the term "Chosen" for those favoured by the gods during the Sundering. They're special, but they're not THAT special.

I definitely don't think Sundering Chosen and the word "demipower" should be mentioned anywhere near each other. Even favoured seems a bit much for some of these folks, because the deities' attentions are all spread so thinly - perhaps "The Very Slightly Favoured" might be a better term.

Exarchs were also more powerful entities than even all the pre-Sundering Chosen (who weren't exarchs themselves), as pointed out on p72 of the 4e FRCG. I would argue that almost all exarchs would be considered demigods if using that term (or perhaps Planescape-style "proxies" in some cases), but I don't think any non-exarch Chosen could be considered demigods.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 09:09:05
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