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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
251 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2015 :  22:51:04  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, you didn't include in Jaizirian's article, his connection with Asmodeus, and Guide to Hell, suggested they were two very close aspects of the World Serpent. Does it mean you don't like this connection, or the Guide to Hell? Dicefreaks, who go with Guide to Hell canon, also disliked the idea of Jaizirian and Asmodeus' connection, and made a diffrent beig connected to Asmodeus.


I mentioned it somewhat obliquely, since it is meant to be a secret:
"The final major myth mentions the Eternal Serpent was once joined with another Elder Serpent of Law, and it is they that created the multiverse. The origin of this myth and current identity of the other serpent are a mystery, but once again, the couatl are dismissive of it as just a story."

I don't like that aspect of Guide to Hell, partly because it incorporated the Zoroastrian deity Ahriman without any relation to Zoroastrian mythology. Certainly one could argue that makes Jazirian Ahura Mazda, but as you could probably guess, I dislike that. :) Otherwise, I actually like the Guide to Hell.

I need to rework Jazirian's entry a bit, though. I'm not happy with it.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, I wonder if Vaprak, anbsorbed/subsumed a deity, or demon lord, worshipped by Trolls, and it ended up changing, and corrupting him, like with Selvetarm and Zanassu. Of course, Vaprak could be allready evil before he absorbed the demon lord, just became more monstrous, and mindless after that.



Pretty much how I envisioned it, although I don't see the original trollish deity as an Abyssal Lord. I left it ambiguous on purpose though.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  22:23:54  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, interesting that I guessed stuff about Vaprak.

About Ahriman, I guess they went this way, because Asmodeus was originaly a Zoroastrian demon, Aeshma-Daeva,and because they went the dualism route. Although the Hebrew adaptation of Asmodeus/Aeshma-Daeva, appears to be at least a bit conflated with native Hebrew Azazel.

But as I said, some people also disliked the dirrect connection to Ahriman. Dicefreaks' The Gates of Hell, and Pathfinder, also use the concepts from Guide to Hell, but divorced it from Zoroastrian mythology.

Although the very dualism that Guide to Hell uses, and it's succesors use, is ultimately derived from Zoroastrian concepts...
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

441 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2015 :  08:59:26  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could just be ambiguous and use "the Dark Lord of Nessus" in place of Asmodeus, this lets players keep their headcanon as to whether the Lord of Baator is a fallen exemplar of law, a glorified accountant, Gaiman/Carey's Lucifer, etc.
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
251 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2015 :  10:04:47  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, interesting that I guessed stuff about Vaprak.


Well, I actually tried to make it a pretty significant possibility in my write up... :)

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

About Ahriman, I guess they went this way, because Asmodeus was originaly a Zoroastrian demon, Aeshma-Daeva,and because they went the dualism route. Although the Hebrew adaptation of Asmodeus/Aeshma-Daeva, appears to be at least a bit conflated with native Hebrew Azazel.

But as I said, some people also disliked the dirrect connection to Ahriman. Dicefreaks' The Gates of Hell, and Pathfinder, also use the concepts from Guide to Hell, but divorced it from Zoroastrian mythology.

Although the very dualism that Guide to Hell uses, and it's succesors use, is ultimately derived from Zoroastrian concepts...


Well, most of the demons and devils in D&D are based on Medieval misinterpretations, mistranslations, and the like of terms and names in holy books and religions. As such, I'd rather not connect those with their original entities, should they be drawn from earlier entities, because they're invariably different.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

You could just be ambiguous and use "the Dark Lord of Nessus" in place of Asmodeus, this lets players keep their headcanon as to whether the Lord of Baator is a fallen exemplar of law, a glorified accountant, Gaiman/Carey's Lucifer, etc.



Asmodeus is canonically the lord of Nessus, so that would be a difference without a distinction; speaking of the myth as a "Serpent of Law" makes it ambiguous enough to fit different campaigns.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."

Edited by - AuldDragon on 21 Mar 2015 10:05:35
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
251 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2015 :  08:35:31  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zorquan the High One: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/04/zorquan-the-high-one/

Zorquan is the deity who embodies what it is to be a dragon, representing those features all dragons share. His primary concern is with the survival of the dragon races as a whole rather than individual dragons.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2015 :  18:11:41  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found something interesting, as an article in Oerth Journal #12, reveals that Ghaunadaur, is fact the Elder Elemental God. Well one of three Elder Elemental Gods. They may be seen as three aspects of the main, mutiversal Elder Elemental God.
Here is the article:
https://archive.org/stream/oerth_journal_12/OJ_12_djvu.txt

search for Elder Elemental God (Rentaq)

The article was co-written by Gary Gygax, the creator of EEG(and of course D&D )

[EDIT]

Not to mention, the issue has a lot of other interesting information about the Elder Elemental God...

Edited by - Baltas on 14 Jun 2015 03:33:17
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

263 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2015 :  17:30:40  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, that was a great read Baltas. Thanks for finding it. Perfect timing too, it really helps tie together a lot of the ideas I had been kicking around in my head about revealing Ghaunadaur as a primary force behind the evil gods in my campaign.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2015 :  17:48:03  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haha, no problem.
I searched for some stuff about obscure d&d deities, when I accidentaly found the Elder Elemental God being called Vilp-akf'cho Rentaq. I was curious if the posts author made up the name, or if it had some base in canon, so I searched for it, and found this wonderfull article.
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
251 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2015 :  21:58:52  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I found something interesting, as an article in Oerth Journal #12, reveals that Ghaunadaur, is fact the Elder Elemental God. Well one of three Elder Elemental Gods. They may be seen as three aspects of the main, mutiversal Elder Elemental God.
Here is the article:
https://archive.org/stream/oerth_journal_12/OJ_12_djvu.txt

search for Elder Elemental God (Rentaq)

The article was co-written by Gary Gygax, the creator of EEG(and of course D&D )

[EDIT]

Not to mention, the issue has a lot of other interesting information about the Elder Elemental God...



Well, it specifies that the three are separate: Greyhawk's EEG (Rentaq), Ghaunadar, and the Monster Mythology EEG. Making them the same goes directly against that.

Interestingly, it also specifies that the EEG is *not* Tharizdun, giving me good cover to not thread the needle on that one! :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2015 :  01:09:11  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure, I rather got the impression from the article that the Monster Mythology Elder Elemental God is a "general" description for EEGs, not that he/it is the third Elder Elemental God.

[Edit]

Here is the direct quote, specifying what I mean
quote:

While Monster Mythology has a general treatment of an Elder
Elemental God
, the following is a description of the EEG specific to Oerth, much like Ghaunadaur is a specific description of an EEG on Toril



So it's rather clear the EEG from Monster Mythology isn't the unnamed, third EEG, but a general treatment of an Elder Elemental God, quite possibly a conflation of cults and beliefs towards all three across the multiverse.

Also, there is another interesting statement about them.

quote:

Nonetheless, there is a definite unity in the triumvirate
beings.



Which suggest maybe a deeper connection between all three. Or maybe not...

Also, yeah Tharizdun is meant to be a diffrent from Elder Elemental God. The Dark God of Monster Mythology, is meant to be Tharizdun.

Edited by - Baltas on 17 Jun 2015 08:09:45
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

263 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2015 :  19:36:18  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is slightly off-topic, but I started reading more about Tharizdun after the Oerth Article... and I'm starting to see a possible connection between Tharizdun and Cyric... They are both referred to as "The Black Sun". People often find Cyric's ability to kill other deities implausible, but... If Cyric is somehow connected to Tharizdun, I can see a justification for Cyric's continual ability to kill/destroy Deities on their home turf, since he would be channeling a power that would inherently supersede the powers of individual deities or their planes of existence.

If anybody has more info on Tharizdun or the Elder Elemental Gods, I'd love to read it.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

263 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2015 :  19:42:10  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I'm not sure, I rather got the impression from the article that the Monster Mythology Elder Elemental God is a "general" description for EEGs, not that he/it is the third Elder Elemental God.

[Edit]

Here is the direct quote, specifying what I mean
quote:

While Monster Mythology has a general treatment of an Elder
Elemental God
, the following is a description of the EEG specific to Oerth, much like Ghaunadaur is a specific description of an EEG on Toril



So it's rather clear the EEG from Monster Mythology isn't the unnamed, third EEG, but a general treatment of an Elder Elemental God, quite possibly a conflation of cults and beliefs towards all three across the multiverse.

Also, there is another interesting statement about them.

quote:

Nonetheless, there is a definite unity in the triumvirate
beings.



Which suggest maybe a deeper connection between all three. Or maybe not...

Also, yeah Tharizdun is meant to be a diffrent from Elder Elemental God. The Dark God of Monster Mythology, is meant to be Tharizdun.



One other thing on this... Krynn, Oerth, and Toril are listed as the Triumvirate spheres in Spelljammer. Since we know 2 of the three named Elder Elmental Gods are connected to Oerth and Toril... it stands to reason that the third might be connected to Krynn. Perhaps there is something, somewhere in Dragonlance lore that could shed some light on the third EEG?

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30430 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2015 :  20:14:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad


One other thing on this... Krynn, Oerth, and Toril are listed as the Triumvirate spheres in Spelljammer. Since we know 2 of the three named Elder Elmental Gods are connected to Oerth and Toril... it stands to reason that the third might be connected to Krynn. Perhaps there is something, somewhere in Dragonlance lore that could shed some light on the third EEG?



Nothing that I can recall... Krynn has always been the odd duck of the three settings: it has its own singular pantheon for all races (and no multispheric deities); its own planar structure; a lack of some "universal" races common to the other two (and countless other) worlds, such as halflings, drow, etc. On top of that, when races on other worlds had level restrictions, ones on Krynn did not -- but they had a hard cap at like 18 or 20; past that, the gods took you elsewhere. There is also the impact of the moons on Krynnish magic...

So, as far as I can tell, Krynn has no EEG analogue, and there's no reason to think there might be one there.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2015 :  20:15:53  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chaos, The Father of All and of Nothing, might fit the Elder Elemental God description. Some sources describe him as the void from which the High God created the universe, similary to primordial being from Babylonian and Egyptian mythology Gary Gygax said he based the EEG on.
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

263 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2015 :  21:36:25  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad


One other thing on this... Krynn, Oerth, and Toril are listed as the Triumvirate spheres in Spelljammer. Since we know 2 of the three named Elder Elmental Gods are connected to Oerth and Toril... it stands to reason that the third might be connected to Krynn. Perhaps there is something, somewhere in Dragonlance lore that could shed some light on the third EEG?



Nothing that I can recall... Krynn has always been the odd duck of the three settings: it has its own singular pantheon for all races (and no multispheric deities); its own planar structure; a lack of some "universal" races common to the other two (and countless other) worlds, such as halflings, drow, etc. On top of that, when races on other worlds had level restrictions, ones on Krynn did not -- but they had a hard cap at like 18 or 20; past that, the gods took you elsewhere. There is also the impact of the moons on Krynnish magic...

So, as far as I can tell, Krynn has no EEG analogue, and there's no reason to think there might be one there.



Ok, thanks Wooly. I don't have any real knowledge about Dragonlance, beyond the conncection of the three game settings in Spelljammer. So it was a total shot in the dark on my part...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2015 :  14:15:50  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, returning to Krynn and Chaos, in the early 2000's, the The War of Souls book series, revealed a few things about Chaos. First, they made him more of an Luciferian figure, who rebeled against the High God.
Secondly, his real name was revealed as Ionthas, acording to the author this change, Matthew L. Martin, a deliberate reference to Io.

This is very interesting, when we consider the similarity of Takhisis to Tiamat, and Paladine to Bahamut.

Although later sources refer the stuff that happened and are described in The War of Souls book series, are from Paladine's perspective, and not necersilely 100% true.

Edited by - Baltas on 20 Jun 2015 15:51:57
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6215 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2015 :  01:16:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, the number of easter eggs in this game sometimes just amazes me when you start looking.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
251 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2015 :  10:53:11  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arcanic the Learned: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/07/arcanic-the-learned/

Arcanic was a minor demipower introduced in Council of Wyrms, as a LN deity of magic. As that setting had additional material presented in Dragon Magazine (and later included in the hardbound re-release) for sage-dragons, it seemed suitable to make Arcanic the patron of that kit. I also made his relationship with Kereska something like the relationship between Azuth and Mystra in the Forgotten Realms, with a focus on wizardry rather than magic itself.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
251 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2015 :  11:48:39  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Astilabor the Hoardmistress: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/08/astilabor-the-hoardmistress/

Astilabor is the goddess who represents the desire most dragons have for gaining status amongst their peers, mostly through the acquisition of wealth and treasure. This is not greed in the normal sense, for the wealth is not desired for its own sake or to deprive others of the opportunity of gaining it; that is the realm of Task. The importance of status and wealth to most dragons has made Astilabor one of the more powerful draconic deities, and while she feels her wealth places her above the other deities, she does not think her abilities surpass theirs in all things.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."

Edited by - AuldDragon on 03 Aug 2015 11:49:17
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

263 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2015 :  14:59:30  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm just giving this scroll a bump, since it's tremendous...

And, in case AuldDragon is taking requests... I'd be interested to see his take on: Kanchelsis, Mellifleur, or Quorlinn

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
251 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2015 :  21:41:20  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

I'm just giving this scroll a bump, since it's tremendous...

And, in case AuldDragon is taking requests... I'd be interested to see his take on: Kanchelsis, Mellifleur, or Quorlinn



Thanks! Those three will be coming eventually, but I'm working on the dragon deities right now. Velsharoon responds to prayers to Mellifleur in the Realms, btw.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

263 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2015 :  23:05:32  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds good, AuldDragon... The Mellifleur/Velsharoon connection actually made me start thinking that he might be connected Kiaransalee & Myrkul as well... And with his multi-verse connections, I started thinking of him almost like a Lich-Deity version of "The Borg"... (But, that's just me making up stuff for my home game).

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

441 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2015 :  00:18:08  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's an interesting post by ripvanwormer re: Mellifleur:

"Mellifleur, whose sweet tongue was full of guile and cunning, more than any other mortal. Alone of all mortals, he mastered the Dark Speech, the language of the pure primal Evil. With his sweet tongue he shaped those words with such eloquence that he charmed the secrets of lichdom from the Lords of Evil themselves, 'till the secret was his and his alone. The ones who would follow him - Skall, and Vecna, Acererak and Velsharoon - they gained their powers only as Mellifleur saw fit.

The Lords of Evil hate Mellifleur for what he has stolen from them, but his arts are such that he keeps their wrath at bay - for now. It is said that even Boccob the Uncaring is wrathful towards Mellifleur."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6215 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2015 :  19:55:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

Sounds good, AuldDragon... The Mellifleur/Velsharoon connection actually made me start thinking that he might be connected Kiaransalee & Myrkul as well... And with his multi-verse connections, I started thinking of him almost like a Lich-Deity version of "The Borg"... (But, that's just me making up stuff for my home game).




One personal take I did in my homebrew was that Velsharoon did indeed take over Mellifleur's position in the realms. He did so via using one of Mellifleur's many phylacteries. My thought process is that every time he expands into a new pantheon, he creates a new phylactery to "anchor" himself there. Thus, Velsharoon used Mellifleur's Faerunian phylactery to ascend to godhood. He also used the skull staff of the necromancer (which I had noted as having the sentience of a Imaskari Lich within it and ties to the place where Vestiges reside) as part of the ritual.

The part I've never fully settled on was which personality survived the ascension, and in fact, it may be that there is a schism with all 3 entities controlling the "godhood". In fact, "Velsharoon" may spin off multiple avatars that are each separately controlled by the different personalities and may even be working at odds with one another. This might explain some of what we hear where Velsharoon is working with Mystra, but also wants to work with Talos, and is also interested in Shar. The "death" of Velsharoon after the Spellplague might have even been one of these personalities being killed. It might also be that "Velsharoon" is seeking Myrkul's Crown of Horns for some purpose to make some kind of amalgamate deity.

The homebrew lore on the Skull Staff of the Necromancer can be found here.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
251 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2015 :  10:18:13  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chronepsis the Death Dragon: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/09/chronepsis-the-death-dragon/

As the silent watcher of time and draconic fate, Chronepsis rarely interacts with those who are not dead or dying. It is said that he is a counterpart to Io; where Io is the beginning of all things, Chronepsis is the end of all things. He guides the spirits of the draconic dead to the afterlife, and determines the location of their final rest.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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