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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13089 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2014 :  19:28:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For the Kenku and Aarakocra, you may want to look over some of Gray Richardson's Creator Race musings; specifically, the stuff on the Aeree.

I think we don't need more gods for a lot of those others - rather, aspects of existing gods (along with fiends, archfey, Elemental lords, proto-gods, etc) should serve just fine. I like a lot of gods in my settings, but not with THAT MUCH overlap. I am sure just about everyone borrows a deity or two from someone else's pantheon.

As for the Shalaran - I think it would have been best had they been from Abeir, to tie new lore to old... opportunities, missed, and all that. That would mean their pantheon probably would have had few - if any - true gods.

Speaking of which, on the Tlincallis: I always felt the Maztica pantheon was really just the draconic pantheon under human aliases (its a near-perfect fit, except for one oddball). That would mean the scorpionmen could have 'brought back' the draconic pantheon to Faerūn, which has been mysteriously missing for some time (no true presence in The Realms). My thoughts on that is that Abeir is actually 'The True World' from Maztican legend, and most of the draconic deities wound-up over there*, which left only 'echoes' (vestiges) of them in the Realms (with the exception of Tiamet and Bahamut, who seem to be better at crossing over into other pantheons then the rest).

So basically, even if we have two different but very similar gods for different pantheons, chances are they just might be different aspects of the same archtype.


*Due to their more primal nature

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2014 19:35:27
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2014 :  21:25:45  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a couple of notes:

In the Netheril books there is a convo between phaerimm where they mention their deities, but that's all of the info you get about them.

The Sharn are actually an amalgamation of elves (each sharn is several elves merged into one being, this is mentioned in the novel Blackstaff). So anyway this would mean they worship elven pantheon.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2014 :  04:28:45  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the Glouras thing... yeah, I ALWAYS pictured them as part of the unseelie court. I pictured them as being treated as somewhat royalty. Then the 3e version came out and made them "mostly good with the rare evil one". Personally, I prefer them the other way.... mostly evil with the rare good one. I would definitely have them worshipping the Queen of Air and Darkness for the evil ones, and I picture them as some kind of tainted/empowered other fairies.



I read their descriptions again (Dragon 227 and DDGttU), and they are definitely connected to the Unseelie Court. They're not actually malicious, but they aren't nice, either. I don't think they were tainted by the Queen of Air and Darkness herself, since they aren't evil; instead they may have been altered by the magic of the underdark and drawn to the Unseelie Court due to their changed nature.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and since you can spot them so directly, it would be a big improvement on your list if you listed the "main" worshippers of a given beside their names. Also, a source would be really good (though I recognize the kenku and aarakocra names now that you state which they're for, its not necessarily immediately apparent). That was one of the things that I really liked at the end of faiths and pantheons for 3e where they listed the monster deities. They listed the alignment, favored weapon, domains, symbol, portfolios, and worshipped by. I think your list would be of easier use if it included alignment, portfolios, worshipped by, and source (the favored weapons, domain, and symbol can all be looked up if someone is really interested... or "designed" if unavailable... i.e. DM pick the domains and favored weapons).



The primary source is DMGR4 Monster Mythology for about 95% of these deities; the project is to update those entries to match the format of Faiths & Avatars. For primary sources, a better place to look would be my old 2nd edition deity spreadsheet (which hasn't been updated in a while, but I believe has almost all of the deities in the list):
http://blog.aulddragon.com/2010/12/complete-second-edition-deity-spreadsheet/

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

For the Kenku and Aarakocra, you may want to look over some of Gray Richardson's Creator Race musings; specifically, the stuff on the Aeree.


Is that a thread on this forum? I'll look around for it.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think we don't need more gods for a lot of those others - rather, aspects of existing gods (along with fiends, archfey, Elemental lords, proto-gods, etc) should serve just fine. I like a lot of gods in my settings, but not with THAT MUCH overlap. I am sure just about everyone borrows a deity or two from someone else's pantheon.


As a fan of Spelljammer, I think a lot of the races found in wildspace or native to other spheres should have their own pantheons (loxo are a good example) unless they're specified not to. That doesn't mean those gods are necessarily accessible from Toril or Realmspace, however. For creatures native to Toril, worshiping existing gods makes sense unless there aren't any suitable gods. On the other hand, I don't want to merge existing gods together, either, unless one is little more than a name. For example, I don't like merging Sune and Hanali or Aerdrie and Syranita, but I used the brief mention of a deity named "Vilya" in an adventure involving evil cloud giants to enhance the more detailed Memnor.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for the Shalaran - I think it would have been best had they been from Abeir, to tie new lore to old... opportunities, missed, and all that. That would mean their pantheon probably would have had few - if any - true gods.


Shalarin were originally from "somewhere else" with the assumption it was offworld (they were created to operate as humans for an aquatic campaign); I believe 3e changed the source to the other side of Toril. I believe the distinction between Abeir and Toril came later still, so it would have been yet another ret-con.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Speaking of which, on the Tlincallis: I always felt the Maztica pantheon was really just the draconic pantheon under human aliases (its a near-perfect fit, except for one oddball). That would mean the scorpionmen could have 'brought back' the draconic pantheon to Faerūn, which has been mysteriously missing for some time (no true presence in The Realms). My thoughts on that is that Abeir is actually 'The True World' from Maztican legend, and most of the draconic deities wound-up over there*, which left only 'echoes' (vestiges) of them in the Realms (with the exception of Tiamet and Bahamut, who seem to be better at crossing over into other pantheons then the rest).


I don't really see the draconic deities as the Maztican deities; the latter are pretty clearly Central American deities with somewhat different names. Feel free to elaborate, though.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5027 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2014 :  13:57:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah, I'm not seeing much link between the dragon deities and the Maztican deities either. I just figure the Maztican pantheon's another pantheon just like the Kara-tur, Zakharan, and probably Osse and Anchorome have their own as well

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13089 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 :  12:50:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Tlincallis are 'Scorpionmen', and in (RW) legend, Scorpionmen were created by Tiamet. I think that may be how I made the mental leap to the draconic pantheon. For a short time we had been trying to 'spruce up' the snore-fest that was Maztica over on the WotC boards, and that was one of the things we came up with. Of course, when 4e came out Maztica was gone, replaced by something way too similar to Faerūn, and once-again, no one was bothering to use it.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

The Sharn are actually an amalgamation of elves (each sharn is several elves merged into one being, this is mentioned in the novel Blackstaff). So anyway this would mean they worship elven pantheon.

Actually, according to the novel Blackstaff, the Sharn are composite beings made-up of several races, including - but not limited to - Elves, dwarves, and Humans.

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

For the Kenku and Aarakocra, you may want to look over some of Gray Richardson's Creator Race musings; specifically, the stuff on the Aeree.


Is that a thread on this forum? I'll look around for it.
There IS a thread, but he also did two articles in The Candlekeep Compendium on them.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for the Shalaran - I think it would have been best had they been from Abeir, to tie new lore to old... opportunities, missed, and all that. That would mean their pantheon probably would have had few - if any - true gods.


Shalarin were originally from "somewhere else" with the assumption it was offworld (they were created to operate as humans for an aquatic campaign); I believe 3e changed the source to the other side of Toril. I believe the distinction between Abeir and Toril came later still, so it would have been yet another ret-con.
Those decisions were made RW around the same time - it was 'revealed' that the Shalarin came from the other side of toril in The Grand History of the Realms, which worked as the prologue to 4e (Spellplague), and even before 4e was released we heard about Abeir. They could have just as easily said that the Shalarin were from Abeir, but the guys writing the tGHotR were not all 'in the loop' about the future plans of FR, even though those plans were already set-in-stone at that time. It was just another case of one hand not knowing what the other was doing.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2014 12:52:18
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Neconilis
Acolyte

USA
12 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  18:45:38  Show Profile Send Neconilis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is absolutely fantastic and an amazing amount of work. Thank you very much.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1278 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2014 :  17:01:04  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice Work!

Are you the same Auld Dragon that does the LETS PLAY of the SSI games on YOU TUbe. I love those, if it is you nice work on that too. I have watched them to recall points I need for my campaign.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1278 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2014 :  17:02:05  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice Work!

Are you the same Auld Dragon that does the LETS PLAY of the SSI games on YOU TUbe. I love those, if it is you nice work on that too. I have watched them to recall points I need for my campaign.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

146 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2014 :  17:12:38  Show Profile  Send Cbad285 an AOL message  Send Cbad285 a Yahoo! Message Send Cbad285 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very nice. But they are all but grease stains on the wheel of time compared to Tiax.

"Beware the Dream Fever!"
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2014 :  20:20:53  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade

Nice Work!

Are you the same Auld Dragon that does the LETS PLAY of the SSI games on YOU TUbe. I love those, if it is you nice work on that too. I have watched them to recall points I need for my campaign.


I am indeed. Glad you enjoyed them, thanks! :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2014 :  12:28:41  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some deities that are mentioned in Elves of Evermeet but left undescribed elsewhere (so far that I know): Kethryllia Amarillis (called a Heroine but listed under gods, possibly a DR 0) and Khalreshaar (listed as a demigoddess).

Also the following from EoE: Bear (Lesser god), Eagle (Intermediate), Raven (Lesser), and Wolf (Lesser). The 1e Deities and Demigods listed these gods under Native American Mythos. To my knowledge, there is no further info on them.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5027 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2014 :  13:03:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Some deities that are mentioned in Elves of Evermeet but left undescribed elsewhere (so far that I know): Kethryllia Amarillis (called a Heroine but listed under gods, possibly a DR 0) and Khalreshaar (listed as a demigoddess).

Also the following from EoE: Bear (Lesser god), Eagle (Intermediate), Raven (Lesser), and Wolf (Lesser). The 1e Deities and Demigods listed these gods under Native American Mythos. To my knowledge, there is no further info on them.



For Kethryllia Amarillis - not a deity

From Demi-Human Deities under Lolth entry

As an Abyssal Lord, Araushnee assumed the name Lolth and
conquered a considerable portion of that foul plane, driving off
Ghaunadaur and subjugating Kiaransalee in the process. The
Spider Queen then turned her attentions toward corrupting the
mortal children of the Seldarine and reclaiming her divinity.
Lolth's attentions were drawn once again to Abeir-Toril by the
intrusion of the moon elven heroine Kethryllia Amarillis into her
domain, and the Spider Queen immediately began to cultivate
followers among the most cruel and corrupt of Corellon's children
in Faerun. In the centuries that followed, Lolth made great
inroads among the warlike Ilythiiri, who had long since spread
across the South conquering their kin- folk under the careful
guidance of Vhaeraun, and to a lesser extent, Ghau- nadaur.

For Khalreshaar

From Demi-human deities:

Although Khalreshaar (Kal-REH-shay-are) is not listed in Faiths
& Avatars as an alias of Our Lady of the Forest, Khalreshaar is
the name by which Mielikki is known on Evermeet, the Green
Isle. In this aspect, Mielikki is said to serve Rillifane Rallathil, not
Silvanus, delivering messages and doing errands for the
Leaflord when speed is of the essence. While
Khalreshaar/Mielikki is in some respects an interloper god in the
elven pantheon, the Fair Folk speak of a female human druid
who was elevated to the ranks of the divine by the Seldarine
when she was slain by soldiers of a human warlord as she
attempted to defend elven woodlands from the encroachment
of civilization.
Since the Time of Troubles, a growing cult, composed primarily
of half-elves, has begun to give more credence to myths which
claim that Mielikki is the daughter of Silvanus and Hanali Celanil.
They have begun to venerate Khalreshaar as the first truly halfelven
power, much to the dismay of many full-blooded elves.
See the entry for Mielikki in Faiths & Avatars for more information
about Khalreshaar.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2014 :  21:53:03  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Also the following from EoE: Bear (Lesser god), Eagle (Intermediate), Raven (Lesser), and Wolf (Lesser). The 1e Deities and Demigods listed these gods under Native American Mythos. To my knowledge, there is no further info on them.



Those are aspects of Rillifane Rallathil, see his entry in Demihuman Deities.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2014 :  21:28:22  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grond Peaksmasher: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/06/grond-peaksmasher/

Grond Peaksmasher is a relatively minor deity from the Forgotten Realms setting, playing a part in the novel The Druid Queen, by Douglas Niles. He received a handful of mentions in various other supplements, but the most significant information on him was published in Polyhedron #111, containing some additional details about him in the aftermath of the novel. Unfortunately, his specialty priest class was a direct mirror of Hiatea's, which I felt really did not suit him at all. I have endeavored to write up a full entry on him that incorporates information from the novel and the Polyhedron article, as well as how I think his personality would direct his priests (with an eventual goal of being known outside of just the Moonshaes), so he can be of use even to those who do not have campaigns set in the Forgotten Realms.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Demetrios1453
Acolyte

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2014 :  03:45:24  Show Profile Send Demetrios1453 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey great work here! I actually joined to forum here so I could hop into this conversation...

I did something similar back in the day on the Forgotten Realms mailing list, although you're taking it a bit further with religion specific spells and the like, and putting interesting spins that I hadn't thought of on various deities. If you're interested in my take on them, you can usually find them by Googling "Realms-L Archives" and the deity name; they usually pop up fairly early in the list (with dates a few years on either side of 2000). Granted, you've done most of the ones I did already (and some that I didn't do!); the remaining outliers are the remaining giant gods and a few reptilian deities (Blibdoolpoolp, Laogzed, Semuanya, and Sess’innek, as well as Asgorath, who was to be the first of an aborted series on the draconic pantheon)

The reason I stumbled across your work here is that I'm actually doing something very similar right now for the monstrous deities, but for 3e. I just started a new 3e campaign after a several-year hiatus from DMing, and, since the campaign heavily deals with monstrous humanoids and dragons, I thought I'd update and expand the monstrous deity list (and accompanying chart) from Faiths and Pantheons. Of course, once I started, being a monstrous deity-phile I wasn't able to confine myself just to the pantheons necessary for my campaign, but decided instead to make it as complete as possible. When the full chart is completed, I can post it here if people are interested.

I actually have been pondering a bit of an issue with some deities with very similar portfolios and worshipers, and this would seem to be a good place to discuss it (as it has been touched upon in the thread). Which similar deities should remain separate, and which ones should be seen as merely aspects of another? The ones that have struck me as I have been working through so far are: Eachthighern - Lurue; Damh - Tapann, Nathair Sgiathach - Hlal, Daragor - Malar; and Mellifleur - Velsharoon. So far, my reasoning has been as follows:

Eachthighern - Lurue. Other than the former being male and the latter female, they are extremely similar, even in portfolio. When I assigned domains to Eachthighern, and then looked at Lurue's domains, I had chosen the exact same domains! Lore-wise, unfortunately, the Faiths & Avatars series tries to have it both ways, with the section on Lurue seeming to indicate that Eachthighern is not active in the Realms, while, conversely, he is mentioned several times among godly allies. Given their similarities, I so far have assigned Eachthighern as being an aspect of Lurue in the Realms because there's simply not enough there to create two distinctive unicorn deities.

Damh - Tapann. This one is is pretty easy. Tapann is only featured in an article on the korred that Ed Greenwood did in Dragon magazine, plus a few mentions in the Faiths & Avatars series (mainly as Shiallia's father). Again, the two deities are extremely similar in portfolios and worshipers. Basically, it's simply easiest to say that Tapann is Damh's name among the korred and leave it at that. This makes Shiallia unique among Realms deities as we know who all four of her godly grandparents are!

Nathair Sgiathach - Hlal. Although there are rumors that Nathair Sgiathach is merely another form of Hlal, and they are fairly similar in outlook, I come down on the side they are separate entities. Hlal has enough other aspects that he doesn't need another, and the size issue just makes things a bit weird.

Daragor - Malar. Malar and the werewolf god are really quite similar, which is not too surprising once you think about it. When assigning domains to Daragor, I checked back on Malar's domains and again found I had assigned similar domains (although not identical like our unicorn deities!). Looking at it more closely though, I'm of the opinion that they are separate; there's just enough of a difference between the two (Daragor is a bit more bestial and Malar just a bit more cunning). I'm thinking that Daragor regards Malar as the leader of his pack (although he'd gladly take him down if he could), and Malar tolerates this as long as long as the werewolf god shows proper deference. (As a side note, assigning the Moon domain to the lycanthrope deities seems to make sense, but the granted power - turning and destroying lycanthropes like undead - is a bit problematic. Are we to assume that they can only turn/destroy lycanthropes of opposing alignments maybe?)

Mellifleur - Velsharoon. Already discussed in this thread. I'm of the opinion that Velsharoon hijacked Mellifleur's power in the Realms as part of his ascension.

(I haven't really looked into the whole Ghaunadaur - Elder Elemental God - Juiblex issue fully as of yet. Right now I'd be of the opinion the first two are the same, while Juiblex as a demon prince still has his separate influence in the Realms.)


One final bit. Caoimhin and Eshebala are a bit problematical in my opinion due to the obscurity of their main set of worshipers. Killmoulis and foxwomen haven't been detailed anywhere since 2nd edition, end even then they weren't terribly prominent. How should their portfolios be expanded? Caoimhin has food and shy friendship as portfolios - is that enough to warrant him being a god among the fey? Perhaps he should be assigned overview of another fey race or two as well? Eshebala might be a bit easier, as one can assume that any evil lycanthropes which are more intelligent than bestial could fall under her purview, but those aren't terribly common either...

Whew! That's some first post! If anyone actually reads it all the way through, I'd be glad of some opinions!

Edited by - Demetrios1453 on 19 Jun 2014 04:01:29
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2014 :  14:15:25  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Hey great work here! I actually joined to forum here so I could hop into this conversation...


Thanks! Welcome to Candlekeep!

In general, I'm loathe to combine deities. In particular, with the multiverse model that was canon in 2nd Edition, multiple similar deities makes sense if they're not all worshiped on every world. A good example is Gond and Nebelun; Nebelun is a separate entity from Gond, but Gond takes his place within the crystal sphere of Realmspace and responds to prayers to Nebelun.

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Eachthighern - Lurue. Other than the former being male and the latter female, they are extremely similar, even in portfolio. When I assigned domains to Eachthighern, and then looked at Lurue's domains, I had chosen the exact same domains! Lore-wise, unfortunately, the Faiths & Avatars series tries to have it both ways, with the section on Lurue seeming to indicate that Eachthighern is not active in the Realms, while, conversely, he is mentioned several times among godly allies. Given their similarities, I so far have assigned Eachthighern as being an aspect of Lurue in the Realms because there's simply not enough there to create two distinctive unicorn deities.


Here's where the multiverse aspect of 2e comes in. Many of the deities allied to Eachthighern are active in other spheres where he is worshiped (and of course, there's planar politics). If a campaign is Realms-specific and won't be going to the planes or other spheres, it is simplest to just ignore him.

There IS space for both in the Realms for those who want them, though, as their portfolios don't really overlap. If humans can have more than one human-form deity, why can't equines?

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Damh - Tapann. This one is is pretty easy. Tapann is only featured in an article on the korred that Ed Greenwood did in Dragon magazine, plus a few mentions in the Faiths & Avatars series (mainly as Shiallia's father). Again, the two deities are extremely similar in portfolios and worshipers. Basically, it's simply easiest to say that Tapann is Damh's name among the korred and leave it at that. This makes Shiallia unique among Realms deities as we know who all four of her godly grandparents are!


I don't really have any good arguments besides my general aversion to merging deities for keeping the two separate since I haven't done a whole lot of thinking about the sylvan deities yet, although my general feeling about the two is that they'd have very different personalities. I'd also focus on a Celtic-mythos feel for Tapann, and a Greek-mythos feel for Damh.

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Nathair Sgiathach - Hlal. Although there are rumors that Nathair Sgiathach is merely another form of Hlal, and they are fairly similar in outlook, I come down on the side they are separate entities. Hlal has enough other aspects that he doesn't need another, and the size issue just makes things a bit weird.


In 2nd Edition, Hlal is canonically an aspect of Aasterinian (and one of the things I like about 3e is that they separated them); she could be treated in a similar manner as Null, who is a single Realms-aspect of both Chronepsis and Faluzure, in which she is a single aspect of both Aasterinian and Nathair. Personally, I prefer the three being separate, with the personalities of Aasterinian, Hlal, and Nathair reflecting Brass, Mercury, and Faerie dragons respectively. Interestingly enough, Nathair is actually the most powerful of the three. I have no idea how I'll address THAT oddity.

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Daragor - Malar. Malar and the werewolf god are really quite similar, which is not too surprising once you think about it. When assigning domains to Daragor, I checked back on Malar's domains and again found I had assigned similar domains (although not identical like our unicorn deities!). Looking at it more closely though, I'm of the opinion that they are separate; there's just enough of a difference between the two (Daragor is a bit more bestial and Malar just a bit more cunning). I'm thinking that Daragor regards Malar as the leader of his pack (although he'd gladly take him down if he could), and Malar tolerates this as long as long as the werewolf god shows proper deference. (As a side note, assigning the Moon domain to the lycanthrope deities seems to make sense, but the granted power - turning and destroying lycanthropes like undead - is a bit problematic. Are we to assume that they can only turn/destroy lycanthropes of opposing alignments maybe?)


Again, while there is some overlap, I see them as having quite different personalities. I see Malar as a stalker, hunting his victims silently and in such a way that they're unaware until he strikes. Daragor, on the other hand, WANTS you to know he's coming, that he's chasing you, and he wants you to run. His victim's death is so much sweeter that way. Plus, Daragor hates almost everything, and would almost certainly rather rip Malar limb from limb than regard him as leader. As far as Daragor is concerned, he is alpha, his worshipers are his pack, and everything else is meat.

Regarding the Moon domain, that does seem quite odd, especially the variety of lunar deities who have nothing to do with lycanthroping (Cegilune for example). To be honest, I'd never let a priest turn lycanthropes in 2nd edition.

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

(I haven't really looked into the whole Ghaunadaur - Elder Elemental God - Juiblex issue fully as of yet. Right now I'd be of the opinion the first two are the same, while Juiblex as a demon prince still has his separate influence in the Realms.)


Ghaunadar is a separate entity from the other two, and he answers prayers made to them in the Forgotten Realms, per Demihuman Deities. I believe semi-canonically the Elder Elemental God is actually Greyhawk's Tharizdun (also the origin of DMGR's The Dark God), but again, I prefer them not being the same.

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

One final bit. Caoimhin and Eshebala are a bit problematical in my opinion due to the obscurity of their main set of worshipers. Killmoulis and foxwomen haven't been detailed anywhere since 2nd edition, end even then they weren't terribly prominent. How should their portfolios be expanded? Caoimhin has food and shy friendship as portfolios - is that enough to warrant him being a god among the fey? Perhaps he should be assigned overview of another fey race or two as well? Eshebala might be a bit easier, as one can assume that any evil lycanthropes which are more intelligent than bestial could fall under her purview, but those aren't terribly common either...


Caoimhin reflects a number of folk tales about brownies and fairies helping humans when they aren't looking, if the humans have been kind to them. As for Eshebala, she encompasses a wide variety of negative stereotypes about women, and could easily be prayed to by women who have those sorts of goals, as well as evil enchantresses and the like.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Demetrios1453
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  02:54:50  Show Profile Send Demetrios1453 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Eachthighern - Lurue. Other than the former being male and the latter female, they are extremely similar, even in portfolio. When I assigned domains to Eachthighern, and then looked at Lurue's domains, I had chosen the exact same domains! Lore-wise, unfortunately, the Faiths & Avatars series tries to have it both ways, with the section on Lurue seeming to indicate that Eachthighern is not active in the Realms, while, conversely, he is mentioned several times among godly allies. Given their similarities, I so far have assigned Eachthighern as being an aspect of Lurue in the Realms because there's simply not enough there to create two distinctive unicorn deities.


Here's where the multiverse aspect of 2e comes in. Many of the deities allied to Eachthighern are active in other spheres where he is worshiped (and of course, there's planar politics). If a campaign is Realms-specific and won't be going to the planes or other spheres, it is simplest to just ignore him.

There IS space for both in the Realms for those who want them, though, as their portfolios don't really overlap. If humans can have more than one human-form deity, why can't equines?


I'm loathe to combine deities as well (I, along with others, was in a fury when the infamous line in Faiths & Pantheons stated that there were no other monstrous deities besides the ones listed on page 221, and that any others weren't worshiped in the Realms or were merely aspects of other gods). Eachthighern is a messy case though. In the 2e Powers and Pantheons, in the entry for Lurue (p. 37), it does state that Eachthighern isn't worshiped in the Realms. Then again, Demihuman Deities lists him several times as allies of various gods. A bit of a conundrum! I do understand that singling him out for amalgamation while the rest of the Seelie Court gets through unscathed is a bit odd. I might just have to work out some way to emphasize their differences in assigning Eachthighern 3e domains, perhaps by making him a bit more protection-oriented...



quote:


In 2nd Edition, Hlal is canonically an aspect of Aasterinian (and one of the things I like about 3e is that they separated them); she could be treated in a similar manner as Null, who is a single Realms-aspect of both Chronepsis and Faluzure, in which she is a single aspect of both Aasterinian and Nathair. Personally, I prefer the three being separate, with the personalities of Aasterinian, Hlal, and Nathair reflecting Brass, Mercury, and Faerie dragons respectively. Interestingly enough, Nathair is actually the most powerful of the three. I have no idea how I'll address THAT oddity.



I found that to be really amusing myself. The god of pseudodragons and faerie dragons, as an intermediate deity, is more powerful than most of the true dragon deities! He's more powerful than Bahamut and Tiamat! Perhaps we should keep an eye on those mini-dragons, they may be hiding something! :D
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Demetrios1453
Acolyte

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  03:04:29  Show Profile Send Demetrios1453 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Regarding the Moon domain, that does seem quite odd, especially the variety of lunar deities who have nothing to do with lycanthroping (Cegilune for example). To be honest, I'd never let a priest turn lycanthropes in 2nd edition.



Forgot about this bit in the previous post - I brought this up with one of my players today and he pointed out that, even though it doesn't exactly say it, evil clerics with the Moon domain should, logically, be able to rebuke evil lycanthropes. He realized his mistake when I grinned and said "What an interesting idea!"

In any case, I don't have too much more work left for my 3e monstrous deities chart, so I'll be making a thread for it here in the next few days or so...

Edited by - Demetrios1453 on 20 Jun 2014 03:05:02
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  07:23:21  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

I'm loathe to combine deities as well (I, along with others, was in a fury when the infamous line in Faiths & Pantheons stated that there were no other monstrous deities besides the ones listed on page 221, and that any others weren't worshiped in the Realms or were merely aspects of other gods). Eachthighern is a messy case though. In the 2e Powers and Pantheons, in the entry for Lurue (p. 37), it does state that Eachthighern isn't worshiped in the Realms. Then again, Demihuman Deities lists him several times as allies of various gods. A bit of a conundrum! I do understand that singling him out for amalgamation while the rest of the Seelie Court gets through unscathed is a bit odd. I might just have to work out some way to emphasize their differences in assigning Eachthighern 3e domains, perhaps by making him a bit more protection-oriented...


Aerdrie is still allied to Eachthighern even if he isn't worshiped in one of the crystal spheres that she is. As for his inclusion on the list, it's either because Eric Boyd was going for completeness, or he forgot he wasn't worshiped in the Realms and was just going from a list of "generic" nonhuman deities (using either Monster Mythology or On Hallowed Ground for example).

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

I found that to be really amusing myself. The god of pseudodragons and faerie dragons, as an intermediate deity, is more powerful than most of the true dragon deities! He's more powerful than Bahamut and Tiamat! Perhaps we should keep an eye on those mini-dragons, they may be hiding something! :D



Dragons venerate more than worship, so that could be part of it. I suspect that Tiamat is a profligate user of her divine power, and Bahamut intentionally keeps himself from getting more powerful than she does. As for Nathair, pseudodragons and faerie dragons, being the smallest of dragons, are probably more numerous in actual numbers. In addition, as part of the Seelie Court, many faeries, sprites, leprechauns, and other such creatures would also venerate/worship him.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  07:32:13  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Forgot about this bit in the previous post - I brought this up with one of my players today and he pointed out that, even though it doesn't exactly say it, evil clerics with the Moon domain should, logically, be able to rebuke evil lycanthropes. He realized his mistake when I grinned and said "What an interesting idea!"

In any case, I don't have too much more work left for my 3e monstrous deities chart, so I'll be making a thread for it here in the next few days or so...



I'm not familiar with the details of the 3e ruleset to know what "rebuking" entails. I guess my problem with turning lycanthropes is that the moon doesn't ward off lycanthropes, it governs their changes. I think a force-shapechange type ability would be more appropriate to a moon deity who deals with lycanthropes.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Demetrios1453
Acolyte

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2014 :  08:42:41  Show Profile Send Demetrios1453 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't worry about it, we're working in two different editions, so it's probably best just to discuss the deities in more general terms. Speaking of which...

Has anyone ever seen reference to the holy symbol of Ravanna, the Rakshasa deity? I've found a lot of other info, but nothing on the holy symbol. Right now I have a tiger's head as a placeholder in the chart, but if there's something more official, I'd love to know about it...

I saw that the thri-kreen were discussed earlier, any details on potential deities? I've found two other insectoid powers (Sixin and Obox-Ob), so a thri-kreen power to make a third in the group would round things off nicely...

Finally, what is everyone's opinion on Wastri in the Realms? I know he's a Greyhawk deity, but then again most of the non-human deities got their start there as well. I only bring him up since, when researching bullywugs, I re-discovered the sivs from Monsters of Faerun, and, as lawful amphibian bigots, the sivs seem to fit Wastri very well. They're even given a list of domains for their clerics, which doesn't really match any Realms deity I can think of: Death, Evil, Law, Water - not even Sekolah, the only LE aquatic deity I can think of, comes close to fitting that list. Granted, Wastri's official list of domains isn't a much better match, but if this mystery siv deity isn't some Realms form of Wastri, then who? Interestingly enough, when Wizards of the Coast created an example campaign using a slightly tweaked version of the sivs (the "Behind the Screen" web series), they chose Wastri as the deity...

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Demetrios1453
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 21 Jun 2014 :  05:05:35  Show Profile Send Demetrios1453 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Spelljamming thri-kreen have an interesting but poorly detailed religion surrounding the "Mantis God of the Eternal Lotus," but terrestrial thri-kreen seem more savage. A non-evil hunting deity seems to be more appropriate to me.



Having now found and read the relevant portions of SJA2 (which is the only place I could find the deity mentioned), it seems to me that the Mantis God could easily fit anywhere. As the module itself says "This religion remains multi-faceted and largely incomprehensible - except to thri-kreen, however, who seem able to understand its intricacies and apparent contradictions with no trouble, and conduct interminable philosophical discussions about them." I could see the thri-kreen deity being like Io/Asgorath or Shekinester, having multiple facets and aspects which would allow a wide variety of worshipers. The Spelljamming thri-kreen would worship the "of the Eternal Lotus" facet, which focuses on exploration and expansion, while the less advanced thri-kreen of the Realms might worship a more hunter-focused version.

(It would be known as "The Mantis God", since its real name, if it even has a singular name, would be unpronounceable without an insectoid mouth)
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 21 Jun 2014 :  11:39:01  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Has anyone ever seen reference to the holy symbol of Ravanna, the Rakshasa deity? I've found a lot of other info, but nothing on the holy symbol. Right now I have a tiger's head as a placeholder in the chart, but if there's something more official, I'd love to know about it...


He's never been given a symbol to my knowledge. He specifically has no symbol in Dragon #84, and Dungeon #73 doesn't make mention of one to my knowledge. An ancient musical instrument, the Ravanahatha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravanahatha) is named for him, so that's a possibility.

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

I saw that the thri-kreen were discussed earlier, any details on potential deities? I've found two other insectoid powers (Sixin and Obox-Ob), so a thri-kreen power to make a third in the group would round things off nicely...


Isn't Sixin the deity of Xill? Wouldn't that make him reptilian? I don't know anything about him beyond that, now do I know anything about Obox-ob besides his inclusion on the list of demons in the 1e Monster Manual.

Some of the other insect-related deities I can think of are Klikral (insectare deity, see Spelljammer), Cagn (chief god of the Khoi-San people of South Africa who sometimes takes the form of mantises), Bralm (goddess of hive based insects from Greyhawk), and Apshai (not likely a real Egyptian deity; Apshai appears to simply be a type of beetle).

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Finally, what is everyone's opinion on Wastri in the Realms? I know he's a Greyhawk deity, but then again most of the non-human deities got their start there as well. I only bring him up since, when researching bullywugs, I re-discovered the sivs from Monsters of Faerun, and, as lawful amphibian bigots, the sivs seem to fit Wastri very well. They're even given a list of domains for their clerics, which doesn't really match any Realms deity I can think of: Death, Evil, Law, Water - not even Sekolah, the only LE aquatic deity I can think of, comes close to fitting that list. Granted, Wastri's official list of domains isn't a much better match, but if this mystery siv deity isn't some Realms form of Wastri, then who? Interestingly enough, when Wizards of the Coast created an example campaign using a slightly tweaked version of the sivs (the "Behind the Screen" web series), they chose Wastri as the deity...


Wastri is an ascended mortal (and was imprisoned for a while, to boot), and still resides on Oerth. While he could grant spells to priests on Toril, the question is how followers would know about him. Plus, he's still primarily a *human* god, as he preaches their superiority, and believes demihumans should be destroyed, and bullywugs, orcs, and such are fit to be servants/slaves of humans. I'm not sure what the sivs are, or if that mentality would be a good fit for them.

quote:
Originally posted by Demetrios1453

Having now found and read the relevant portions of SJA2 (which is the only place I could find the deity mentioned), it seems to me that the Mantis God could easily fit anywhere. As the module itself says "This religion remains multi-faceted and largely incomprehensible - except to thri-kreen, however, who seem able to understand its intricacies and apparent contradictions with no trouble, and conduct interminable philosophical discussions about them." I could see the thri-kreen deity being like Io/Asgorath or Shekinester, having multiple facets and aspects which would allow a wide variety of worshipers. The Spelljamming thri-kreen would worship the "of the Eternal Lotus" facet, which focuses on exploration and expansion, while the less advanced thri-kreen of the Realms might worship a more hunter-focused version.


It might be the "Eternal Lotus" appellation, but I was planning on writing up the Mantis God with elements of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. I don't know if thri-kreen culture on Toril was ever delved into after 2nd edition, but up to that point, there was really no inkling of a philosophical bent to them.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2014 :  15:50:21  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Diancastra, the Wanton Wanderer: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/07/diancastra-the-wanton-wanderer/

Diancastra, the Wanton Wanderer, is one of the youngest members of the Ordning, and still has the wanderlust of youth. Born to Annam and a mortal mother, she had the same drive to claim her birthright as Hiatea, and in the process established a colorful heroic career. She values the pleasures in life, be they of the body or the mind.

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1353 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2014 :  20:06:06  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
glouras - definitely sticking to the sylvan pantheon
IIRC, they're neutral and seen as messengers of Eilistraee, but they always struck me as being members of the Unseelie Court. They're introduced in a Dragon magazine around the 250s or 260s I believe, as well as Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark.
I remember them at least somewhere referred as Unseelie. Which is kind of fitting that a lot of them would stick with a Dark Seldarine gone her own way - same "Rebellious Rebel" thing.
Either way, they got to appreciate the funny acoustics of Svartalfheim.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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