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Killashandra
Seeker

South Africa
24 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2005 :  16:18:39  Show Profile  Visit Killashandra's Homepage  Click to see Killashandra's MSN Messenger address Send Killashandra a Private Message
Hello!

I think this is the best thread for thise one. If I'm reading Evermeet correctly, Lamruil (sp) is off to establish the elvish commuinity on the mainland, but Evermeet will still need a ruler after Ammaruil (sp again) is gone.

Now, she's very spiffy indeed and likely to live quite a long time, but she could still die right? Lamruil is out of the question, he's off to rule on the mainland.

So it seems to me that the next king of Evermeet by blood would have to be Elaith's son with Ammenstria (still sp). And in Evermeet, Lamruil forsees that possiblity. I guess what I want to know is if Lamruil finding the boy anytime soon is on the cards?

And I know NDA's *sigh* but am I on the right path in my musings at least?

He's not evil, he's just...alternativly aligned.

A Kiwi fruit: Take a hamster, shave it's hair so that only stubble remains, cut off it's head and feet and there you go!
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2354 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2005 :  19:54:21  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Killashandra

Hello!

I think this is the best thread for thise one. If I'm reading Evermeet correctly, Lamruil (sp) is off to establish the elvish commuinity on the mainland, but Evermeet will still need a ruler after Ammaruil (sp again) is gone.

Now, she's very spiffy indeed and likely to live quite a long time, but she could still die right? Lamruil is out of the question, he's off to rule on the mainland.

So it seems to me that the next king of Evermeet by blood would have to be Elaith's son with Ammenstria (still sp). And in Evermeet, Lamruil forsees that possiblity. I guess what I want to know is if Lamruil finding the boy anytime soon is on the cards?

And I know NDA's *sigh* but am I on the right path in my musings at least?



Yes, Amlaruil could die; no, Lamruil isn't out of the question; yes, Amnestria's son is high in the royal succession. I can't comment on whether or not the hidden prince will make an appearance anytime soon. Nor can I comment on his actual place in the succession, other than to observe that not all of Amlaruil and Zaor's lost children are quite as "lost" as some might think...

Heh heh...
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2005 :  02:53:16  Show Profile  Click to see Crennen FaerieBane's MSN Messenger address Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message
Elaine,

That's just mean to us elf-lovers!

I understand the secrecy, though... thanks for the clearing up of a few things (since I was going to ask half those questions myself!)

Hope everything is great!

C-Fb

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Killashandra
Seeker

South Africa
24 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2005 :  12:03:23  Show Profile  Visit Killashandra's Homepage  Click to see Killashandra's MSN Messenger address Send Killashandra a Private Message
Oooooo, no fair, so tantalizing and so little!!!!! But thanks none the less <g>

In Evermeet, Lamruil did bond with Zoar's sword right? Does the king of evermeet have to have that moonblade? Or, now that the moonblade has done its job, can it be anyone of Zoar's blood?

He's not evil, he's just...alternativly aligned.

A Kiwi fruit: Take a hamster, shave it's hair so that only stubble remains, cut off it's head and feet and there you go!
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2354 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2005 :  15:20:06  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message
Not ANYONE; in fact, I have a theory about of some of those mysterious deaths among Zaor's heirs. Is it possible that the "official story"--or at least, the version the elves were willing to let Danilo Thann record in the novel EVERMEET--did not reflect what actually happened to some of those royal heirs?

I envision the King Sword, in its current state, as a final test of fitness to rule Evermeet. I think it's entirely possible that some ambitious princes or princesses desired to make a claim to the succession. I ALSO think it's possible that some siblings, having seen this occur, said, "Screw THIS--I am so out of here." In both cases, the elves are hardly likely to advertise. Better to speak of storms at sea, scorned princesses who pined away, and other mishaps. Sure, some humans might observe that Evermeet's royal family seems to be dogged by an enormous amount of misfortunate and a tendency to misplace their princes and princesses, but I suspect the elves prefer it this way.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2005 :  15:52:53  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I envision the King Sword, in its current state, as a final test of fitness to rule Evermeet. I think it's entirely possible that some ambitious princes or princesses desired to make a claim to the succession. I ALSO think it's possible that some siblings, having seen this occur, said, "Screw THIS--I am so out of here." In both cases, the elves are hardly likely to advertise. Better to speak of storms at sea, scorned princesses who pined away, and other mishaps. Sure, some humans might observe that Evermeet's royal family seems to be dogged by an enormous amount of misfortunate and a tendency to misplace their princes and princesses, but I suspect the elves prefer it this way.



And for any gamers out there, such hints or theories should offer a great deal of inspiration if they ever wish to have a game focusing on elven politics. Thanks for sharing this theory.

SB
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Killashandra
Seeker

South Africa
24 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2005 :  16:29:53  Show Profile  Visit Killashandra's Homepage  Click to see Killashandra's MSN Messenger address Send Killashandra a Private Message
Ooooo, that's an awesome theory!!! Love it :-)

Hmmm, that interferes with my theories a bit though, because if Lamruil did claim the sword, no one else can claim it, so it would have to be him.

He's not evil, he's just...alternativly aligned.

A Kiwi fruit: Take a hamster, shave it's hair so that only stubble remains, cut off it's head and feet and there you go!
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Goki
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  15:40:49  Show Profile  Visit Goki's Homepage Send Goki a Private Message
I have to ask... while I have yet to read Book II and III of Starlight and Shadows (Book I was enjoyable, Sos'Umptu was my favorite character :)... it seems like Liriel Baenre is about to become "good". I've read that the Drow are the most vicious and cold killers in all of the Underdark (perhaps even in all of Faerun), and in all of the Drow related fiction I've read (big fan of the Drow), I've enjoyed the novels that stayed within the Drow's domain (IE: Homeland by R.A Salvatore). And whilst reading much of the Drow related fiction, Drizzt Do'Urden (and to a lesser extent Zaknafien Do'Urden), through extraordinary characteristics, seemed to be the only deviation(s) from the Drow's typically hollow and vicious temperament.
While Liriel is a unique character in her own right... the transistion to "good" puts me off slightly and I can't help but feel that Liriel is just another "Drizzt"...
May I ask why you chose Liriel to follow in the footsteps of Drizzt? In particular... why did you chose a Drow?

And why are authors hesistant to write stories centered around a protagonist who is a "bad-guy" (or gal for that matter) and remains one?

Edited by - Goki on 16 Sep 2005 16:26:54
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2354 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  16:28:07  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message
In short, I was asked to write about a drow; specifically, a young drow female of high family who goes off and has adventures on the surface. The editor chose me for this project because he considered me the person LEAST likely to create a Drizzt-like character. (What that says about me, or at least his perception of me, is a matter for another discussion... )

Consider Bob Salvatore's definition of the genre: "Fantasy = Good Wins." Perhaps the reason you see so few fantasy tales told from the perspective of a victorious villain is that such tales are, for the most part, beyond the bounds of traditional fantasy. These tales have their roots in folklore and mythology, which seek to make sense of life's questions and impose some logical form on chaos. Granted, there are sub-genres of modern fantasy that seek "realism" through sordid detail and grim conclusions. Even in S&S fantasy, audience tastes are veering more toward "dark" and "gritty"--two of the most overused descriptive terms in existence--so you can find a number of recent exceptions. But this is the exception, not the norm. Evil is usually vanquished, whether in the form of a villain, or as part of the protagonist's character growth and development. The struggle between good and evil often takes place, at least on one level, in the heart of a heart. This is a classic component of "hero tales," of which fantasy is a contemporary incarnation. Even Luke Skywalker had to enter the cave (a metaphor for "going within") to face his own dark nature before he could complete his Jedi training.

Redemption is present in much of fantasy. It's not uncommon to see "bad" or "neutral" characters come over to the side of the angels. Going back to the original Star Wars trilogy: In Episode IV, it was Han Solo. Lando in Episode V, and of course, Darth Vader in Episode VI.

It is not IMPOSSIBLE for evil to win in fantasy, or for the story to be told from the point of view of an evil character who remains evil. There are enough examples to prove that it can be done. But it is more common to find this sort of story in the horror genre.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 16 Sep 2005 19:46:44
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  16:45:23  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
quote:
And why are authors hesistant to write stories centered around a protagonist who is a "bad-guy" (or gal for that matter) and remains one?
Because it's a contradiction in terms. The idea of a villainous protagonist is lexically null: it simply can't be parsed within the grammar of story.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32223 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  17:43:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
I've never thought Liriel was overly much like Drizzt. Drizzt is very lofty and noble, trying to hold himself to high ideals. And he's always been like that...

Liriel started out simply being someone with rather loose morals, and a well-developed sense of fun. She wasn't making a stand against evil, as Drizzt was, she was just looking to have a good time. She didn't want to bother with being evil...

It was her interactions with Fyodor and others that lead her down the path to goodness. She's still got hard edges, even after following that path for a while...

So, while Liriel is like Drizzt in that both are good drow, I don't think it can be said that they are the same or that Liriel followed in Drizzt's footsteps.

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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  18:08:36  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage  Click to see Chosen of Moradin's MSN Messenger address Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message
...and Wooly says all that I will say. There are only two things that put Drizzt and Liriel as "equals": both are drow, and both are good. But, as sentient beings, they, as everyone, are formed by a multitude of feelings, toughts, behaviours, moral and conduct codes, conscience... I thing that is very hard to compare two persons, even in fiction. Liriel and Drizzt are two very diferent stars in the constelation of the faerunian heroes.

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

twitter: @yuripeixoto
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  19:48:01  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
quote:
So, while Liriel is like Drizzt in that both are good drow, I don't think it can be said that they are the same or that Liriel followed in Drizzt's footsteps.


One has but to read some of the theories about what would happen if Liriel and Drizzt were to meet (which I recall rather vividly from a while ago) to understand exactly how different Liriel and Drizzt really are, eh, Elaine?

I don't know how "good" a drow Liriel is -- I always thought of her as more pragmatic and middle-of-the-road (Chaotic Neutral, in game terms) with some tendencies toward good. She's more governed by whim and pragmatism than any kind of moral principles.

Within Elaine's work, I see the most fascinating good vs. evil, redemption vs. corruption struggle in Elaith Craulnober. In ways, I find him more drow-like than even Liriel.

Anyway.

quote:
And why are authors hesistant to write stories centered around a protagonist who is a "bad-guy" (or gal for that matter) and remains one?


Speaking for my own philosophy on the subject, it's just not the kind of fantasy I write -- so far, anyway. I'm with you, Elaine, on this one -- there's a distinction that needs to be drawn.

I write dark fantasy, yes, but it's all about redemption and hope, even in the darkest of night.

When evil wins out, absolutely, you get a story that is less like fantasy and more like fantasy-horror.

Ravenloft is like this, and the War of the Spider Queen heads that way as well. (If you want a narrative with some real blood-thirsty drow, by the way, I'd check out the epic 6.)

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 16 Sep 2005 19:57:16
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  20:03:28  Show Profile  Click to see Crennen FaerieBane's MSN Messenger address Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message
I don't think a meeting with Drizzt and Liriel would go all that well either. Remember, Liriel is riding with her soul sisters, and unless something has changed, Thorn would most likely try to kill Drizzt on sight.

And if they did get through all of that - they have such cross values that they would never be able to hang out or adventure together.

Every Drow that comes to the surface has their reason, and it's not always the same.

C-Fb

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2354 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  20:21:31  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message
This is probably as good a time as any to re-post what has become my standard response to a should-Drizzt-meet-Liriel question:



Liriel: (Oo! Cute little drow toyboy! Thank you, Eilistraee, goddess of the butt-neckid moonlit dance.)

Drizzt: (Danger! Matron-in-the-making! Strengthen me, Mielikki, whose unicorn favors the chaste and virtuous.) ::draws his two scimitars::

Liriel: ::sniffs:: "Put away the cutlery, honey, and take a look at THESE twins..."

::At this inopportune moment, Catti-brie walks in, and the ensuing catfight makes the season three showdown between Buffy and Faith look like a sorority tea party.::
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  20:42:58  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage  Click to see Chosen of Moradin's MSN Messenger address Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message


That one really save my friday afternoon. I will need to print this, to lighten that tedious moments...

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto
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Brom Greenstar
Seeker

Argentina
25 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  20:44:05  Show Profile  Visit Brom Greenstar's Homepage Send Brom Greenstar a Private Message
jajajajaja i'll use that with my party priestess who keeps pushing to meet Drizzt
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2005 :  21:45:07  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

This is probably as good a time as any to re-post what has become my standard response to a should-Drizzt-meet-Liriel question


Yes, that was just the one I was referring to.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2005 :  02:47:42  Show Profile  Click to see Crennen FaerieBane's MSN Messenger address Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message
So, what exactly would happen in Elaith met Liriel? Now there is two chaotic people who play off each other well.. besides the natural instinct to kill each other.

C-Fb

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Goki
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2005 :  12:45:40  Show Profile  Visit Goki's Homepage Send Goki a Private Message
quote:
Drizzt is very lofty and noble, trying to hold himself to high ideals. And he's always been like that...

I seem to recall that Drizzt has to hold himself together to stop himself from going into a murderous rage in the heat of the battle...

quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

quote:
And why are authors hesistant to write stories centered around a protagonist who is a "bad-guy" (or gal for that matter) and remains one?
Because it's a contradiction in terms. The idea of a villainous protagonist is lexically null: it simply can't be parsed within the grammar of story.


I very much disagree. "Good" and "Evil" are relative. There is a brilliant example of this in the Book of Vile Darkness -Two "Good" Paladins fighting for opposing forces trying to use "Smite Evil" against each other in the field of battle, under the notion that since the other does not believe in his cause he much be "Evil" (alas, it did not give a useable solution to this dilemma). There is a fine line between "Good" and "Evil", I did not mean write about a outright murderous villian to whom no one can relate to. I was referring to a character who never was taught the concept of "Good", and even when met with it, could not understand it, nor accept it. Or at the very least, a character who transforms from "Good" to "Evil", through loss, mistrust, hate etc (For want of a better example; Darth Vader, also I heard from a friend that Rastlin is an example of an "Evil" character -I am not familiar with Dragonlance) and STAYS that way till death. A lost soul who never finds redemption. I think such a character will be complex to create, write and justify (atleast within the Fantasy genre like Elaine said). It will probably require a lot of subjective narration.

I just feel that within Faerun fiction, the concept of "Evil" is being treated like some sort of a "NPC", a taboo, or just mindless-idiots who were born only to die at the hands of some righteous paladin.

Thank you Elaine Cunningham for the response, I very much appreciate it :) It clears up a lot of things in regards to Liriel Baenre.
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1071 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2005 :  13:16:42  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage  Click to see khorne's MSN Messenger address Send khorne a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

I don't think a meeting with Drizzt and Liriel would go all that well either. Remember, Liriel is riding with her soul sisters, and unless something has changed, Thorn would most likely try to kill Drizzt on sight.

And if they did get through all of that - they have such cross values that they would never be able to hang out or adventure together.

Every Drow that comes to the surface has their reason, and it's not always the same.

C-Fb

Why would Thorne do that? Drizzt is so good that a detect good spell would pick him up five miles away.

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2354 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2005 :  14:40:36  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

So, what exactly would happen in Elaith met Liriel? Now there is two chaotic people who play off each other well.. besides the natural instinct to kill each other.


Liriel is a drow; Elaith is, despite his lifestyle choices, a rather conventional elf, and he hold in full measure the elven distrust of drow. He would very likely attact Liriel on sight.

Liriel grew up with the same prejudices, only reversed. Her reaction to the first surface elf she ever saw was to yell to Fyodor, "Kill it!" By the end of Starlight & Shadows, however, her perspective has broadened considerable, and I suspect she would not attack Elaith unless he pissed her off.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2354 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2005 :  15:03:59  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Why would Thorn do that? Drizzt is so good that a detect good spell would pick him up five miles away.


Assuming such as spell were cast, yes, and assuming that Thorn's suspicion would be disarmed by magical confirmation of a good alignment. I suspect it would not: Thorn has no reason to believe that good intentions will necessarily lead to good results.

Thorn is a lythari; her nature is as much wolf as it is elf. The hunt is a matter of survival, the hunted not always an object of pity. Conversely, she is not going to assume the hunter is always righteous. She is not likely to side with a group of good-aligned villagers determined to slay a vixen because the fox may or may not have killed some chickens. Frankly, it wouldn't matter to her overmuch whether or not the fox was "guilty." She has a hard time with the notion of property, and killing chickens isn't a moral issue. After all, the humans intended to kill the chickens, themselves, didn't they? That the fox was quicker to do so is of no concern to Thorn: wolves don't turn on the pack's swift-runner just because he or she makes the kill the rest intended.

Civilized humans, no matter how "good" they are, often do things she finds incomprehensible. Forests have been destroyed, fires set, and wars started by the righteous. Thorn is no more likely to let down her guard around a paladin of Tyr than she is a cleric of Cyric. From a wolf's perspective--and frankly, to some degree from an elf's as well--a "good" human can be every bit as dangerous as an "evil" one.

Drizzt is a ranger, which would buy him some points with Thorn, but she's not about to cozy up to ANYONE just because some generic paladin spell tells her that person is "good."

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 17 Sep 2005 15:12:23
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2005 :  18:25:31  Show Profile  Click to see Crennen FaerieBane's MSN Messenger address Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message
And that being so, it makes Thorn one of the most straight forward characters around. I don't think she was ever overly concerned with the secret motives and hidden plots that Liriel or the Vhaeraunites had. She was sent on a mission and she did it to the best of her abilities.

Very well written character! In fact, I think I'll go read the Starlight and Shadows series again on my train ride across the nation. Thanks again, Elaine!

C-Fb

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2354 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2005 :  19:11:40  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

And that being so, it makes Thorn one of the most straight forward characters around. I don't think she was ever overly concerned with the secret motives and hidden plots that Liriel or the Vhaeraunites had. She was sent on a mission and she did it to the best of her abilities.

Very well written character! In fact, I think I'll go read the Starlight and Shadows series again on my train ride across the nation. Thanks again, Elaine!

C-Fb



A train ride across the nation! What a great experience. Enjoy!

Thanks, C-Fb, for the kind words and for raising interesting points. I enjoy discussing character development and motivation. For me, that's where stories start.

Unfortunately, such discussions tend to lead to . . . stories that want to start. Over the past few days a storyline has been percolating the the back of my mind, taking shape into a trilogy that is unlikely to see the light of day. Three books, each one focusing primarily on one of the characters: Liriel, Thorn, and Sharlarra, in that order, working titles:

Daughter of Darkness
Hunter by Moonlight
Sisters of Starlight
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