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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4019 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  10:13:20  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well as always when things get too real world i stick to the interpretation that Ed used real world gods for inspiration only.

Tyr for instance is definitely not the Norse Tyr (i know i asked Ed recently).

So once the god gets to Faerun its connection to real world cosmology should really end. And in fact there is no guarantee the Mulan gods even came from earth, its just implied and in the end isnt really important.

However feel free to let your mind run wild because thats the fun thing about FR. But for me the connection would stop at Druaga. I have imported Druaga into my Chessentan/Babylonian pantheon (which is separate from the Untheric/Sumerian pantheon), and so Druaga is some kind of monster god that either came to Faerun in the Ship of the Gods (he probably hid in the cargo hold as i doubt they would bring him willingly) and was killed sometime later by Gilgeam during his descent into madness and lust for power.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  13:11:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I may over think here stuff a bit. But I used Druaga already in my campaign, as way to explain how Asmodeus could just so push himself so suddenly into the pantheon. There is also the bit of mystery if the current Bane is just Bane, Iyachtu Xvim in disguise, or some fusion of them. There some evidence on all of those options. I also wonder what Bane's relations will be with the newly resurrected Bhaal.

[edit]

Also Ed's answer about Tyr was amazing, him being a beholder god is something unexpected and facsinating. I always liked Tyr, and new lore about him is always welcome by me

Edited by - Baltas on 20 May 2014 13:17:29
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4019 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  14:03:20  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ewwww, who mentioned 4th edition lore in one of my threads. Unclean, unclean.

But apart from the initial horror, i reckon Bane is not Bane at all but Xvim with a large infusion of Bane juice.

And how would Bane interact with Bhaal. He will try to dominate him just like before and like he does with everyone else. He is a tyrant and he has to be in charge of everything

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  14:50:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except that contradicts lore published in the Planescape setting, and the rule is "Ed's spoken word is canon... unless contradicted by something in-print elsewhere".

Tyr is Tyr. You can do whatever you like in YOUR Realms, but thats the canon. Now, if Ed's lore were to appear somewhere in official print (that means with the WotC logo attached to it), then it would over-rule the Planescape lore. Newer lore trumps older lore (which seems to have been the 4e mantra).

As for 4e lore itself - its not too bad, if you backwards-engineer it for your campaigns.

As for Druaga, I peg him as the same being as 'the Assassin of the Gods' (1e DnD), and also the being that eventually became The Copper Demon of Troos (who managed to escape his Raumathari prison when Karsus cast his final spell and the Weave faltered). He was a powerful demon lord (oni?) who carved-out his own kingdom in Hell, but was eventually driven-out. The fact that he was also know as 'The Assassin of the Gods' (in my HB musings) means he had some divine-backing to accomplish all of this (possibly The Dark Three, and it could have been a mutual thing during their own rise to power).

Eltab was probably a great rival/enemy of his. He may have also had dealings with Graz'zt (another fiend who 'crossed lines' in the lower planes). Once again, just my own musings about all of this.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 15:03:54
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4019 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  15:05:55  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Canon schmanon

Might have to go and read about the assassin of the gods now though. I wish there was a bit more on the copper demon of tros, at least a better clue as to what he was. Freedom to create is good, but too much freedom can also be a problem.

I wonder who came up with the idea for the copper demon. Maybe i could go and pick his brains for more detail.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  15:25:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is various bits about the Copper Demon spread all over the place. One place that is often over-looked is the 2e Book of Artifacts (the stuff in the Acorn of Wo Mai entry - the K-T material states that it was the copper Demon bound therein). George Krashos and I have been knocking-around theories about him for years (like that he caused the downfall of Tsharoon, and that 'Troos' was actually that kingdom's capital).

As for the Assassin of the Gods - I don't even remember him appearing in any of the K-T stuff, other then some scribe-musings in something stored here at the keep (he was killing-off k-T gods/kami during the ToT). His only appearance, AFAIK, is in the old Deities & Demigods book. He is reptilian, so its easy to say he is an ancient Sauroid (Sarrukh) or even Batrachi aspect of Druaga (the Sarrukh had a kingdom nearby at the Lake of Salt). Thats why I think he had an ancient presence on Abeir-Toril, and then perhaps rose to power again after some discoveries by the Imaskari (and their later survivor-states, which would include Narfel and Raumathar).

Tying him to Druaga is 100% my concept - one of those 'deeper secrets' just about no-one would know. Druaga looks like he could be tied to both the Sarrukh (reptilian, like tAotG) and the Batrachi (he has some tentacles going on). Perhaps even an ancient (primordial?) proto-demon worshiped by both (or more) of those Creator races.

QUESTION:
BTW, where can I find that question by you and response by Ed - I am looking for it right now, but if you could nudge me to the right page?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 15:31:04
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4019 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  15:54:07  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah i got the bits about the copper demon from the book of artefacts. Gives more history about the ivory necklace than about the demon but every little helps. Never heard of Tsharoon though.


I dont know what page Ed's quote is on, although it was dated either the 12th March or the 13th March. However i copied the whole quote into another thread so here it is.


quote:
Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").


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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  16:59:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, okay - I had read that before. It doesn't exactly say he was a beholder-deity, just that he had beholder worshipers. It can still all be woven together ('aspects' and what-not). Thanks for the re-quote.

Tsharoon was briefly mentioned in Ed's Athalantar article - it existed where the Quoya desert is now. Thus, its 'capital' would have been one of those ruined settlements found therein, and we had played with the idea its name was 'Troos' (tying it to the Copper Demon).

More Musings: This is a combination of stuff discussed between myself and others (including Krash), that I have woven together into my own homebrew lore. Raumathar was originally a nature-loving culture, but during their on-going war with Narfel they slowly became corrupted, as they needed to adapt and borrow 'tech' from their enemy in order to counter them. One thing they did was create suits of armor VERY similar to Helmed Horrors (but made of copper - their druid-based magic and culture shied-away from iron), and this construct worked very much in the same way as a genie lamp: If brought into close contact with a fiendish (and possibly ANY Outsider) entity it would bind the the thing within it, and anyone controlling the suit could control the enity within (and its power). In most cases, this was a very effective strategy to use against the demon-summoners of Narfel (turning their own diabolic troops against them).

However, the Copper demon (being a demon-lord and of demi-god status) was far too powerful to control, and so instead - after capturing him within a suit of copper armor - imprisoned him in Fan-Lag.* When the weave faltered (when Karsus cast his spell), the Demon was able to escape his prison cell, but not the armor. Instead, he took control of the armor and fled from Raumathar (fearing they would be able to re-establish control) down-river into nearby Tsharoon, where he became known as 'the Copper Demon of Troos'. He eventually set-up his own court and ruled the place, driving into into ruination within a few decades. The drying-up of The Endless wastes did not help matters (thats another story, but related to the fall of Imaskar), and in the end Tsharoon lie forgotten in the new desert of Quoya.

After leaving that devastation behind him, he encountered Wo Mai, and thats where the rest of the story begins. He managed to escape the acorn during the ToT, but it is unclear weather he escaped his copper Armor, or if he continues to wear it by choice.

*Fan Lag - this place is almost entirely homebrew. It is a prison-island in the center of the Upper Arundi River (which runs through Quoya) used to house dangerous criminals/enemies during the Narfel-Raumthari war, and was completely abandoned after The Great Conflagration. Picture it being like one of those comic-book prisons where they house 'supers'. There is a mention of a 'ruined city' in The Code of the Harpers sourcebook in that same exact area, and thats actually where I got the idea for the prison-city. According to that source, it was ruled by a vampire-lord in the 2e era. I just named it and gave it a history.

And once again, everything above is 99.9% homebrew, all based on tiny little canon bits some of us have woven together.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 17:08:00
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4019 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  18:52:45  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That theory is surprisingly close to what me and Sleyvas came up with for the copper demon in idle musings on the Hordelands thread.

Its so close that I'm going to have to use it. The only thing that needs tying in there is the Kalmyk/Suren people. The copper demon of Tros caused the fracturing of the Kalmyk people and caused the Suren to drive west into Narfell (where they became the modern Nar peoples).

Now I have been wondering where the Nar came from and even more why they moved into Narfell.

Now the where they come from I actually think is Zakhara (short, dark hair, tanned skin, horse nomads - sounds like Arabian peoples to me). But the why they came to the Endless Wastes I think has something to do with the Scattering of Fate that led to the Bedine in Anauroch as well.

I reckon they may have uncovered the Copper Demon and therefore become his target. Tsharoon may have been the Kalmyk nation because they owned the land known as the plain of horses and the Suren fled that land when the copper demon arrived.

What I would like to do further is because the acorn of whathisface is now lost I want the spirit of the copper demon to have escaped and is now pursuing the Nar intent on revenge. Because it is without doubt that the Kalmyks helped in defeating the copper demon. The story describes 7 heroes and 7 non men. Typically in advanced societies (Netheril, Imaskar, Rome) they would describe the barbarians as non-men because they were not the same as them. So rather than have 7 weird races it is instead 7 horse nomads (probably the leaders of the seven tribes of the Suren who then fled the endless wastes immediately after in case the copper demon should ever escape.

Of course for me the armour wasn't copper (too easy) it was ferrous in nature and magnetic to boot. The slow corrosion of the armour turned it red (like copper) and it now resides at the centre of the Mountain of Iron.

And if you ever rewrite any of your homebrew lore please send it my way. I could even publish it in my fan mag if you fancied it.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4019 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 :  19:03:21  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I found the Code of the Harpers reference, and then cross referenced it against the map in the Hordelands book then just to double check I used a Handsome Rob map and hey presto Fan Laag is there on the Arundi River.

If ever an update of the Hordelands book ever gets written then I wouldn't be surprised to find Fan Laag or Lang in there.

I was struggling for a reason for the copper demon to be so far away from Raumathari lands but a high security prison is a perfect reason to place it so far away. The death of Mystryl also gives a great timing for escape and the Kalmyks were probably already there by that time so it all ties in nicely. Thankyou again for the help its just a shame this is not the Hordelands thread as I will never think to look in here again.

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sleyvas
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USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  00:36:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Yeah i got the bits about the copper demon from the book of artefacts. Gives more history about the ivory necklace than about the demon but every little helps. Never heard of Tsharoon though.


I dont know what page Ed's quote is on, although it was dated either the 12th March or the 13th March. However i copied the whole quote into another thread so here it is.


quote:
Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").





Just to note, this doesn't state that Tyr isn't Tyr... its states that some folks worship some kind of eye being in the name of Iltyr. There appears to be some connection to Tyr... and perhaps there is (could this be a creation of his... some kind of weird avatar... maybe he killed a being known as Iltyr and kept the avatar rather than recycling it, etc...).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  00:46:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ah, okay - I had read that before. It doesn't exactly say he was a beholder-deity, just that he had beholder worshipers. It can still all be woven together ('aspects' and what-not). Thanks for the re-quote.

Tsharoon was briefly mentioned in Ed's Athalantar article - it existed where the Quoya desert is now. Thus, its 'capital' would have been one of those ruined settlements found therein, and we had played with the idea its name was 'Troos' (tying it to the Copper Demon).

More Musings: This is a combination of stuff discussed between myself and others (including Krash), that I have woven together into my own homebrew lore. Raumathar was originally a nature-loving culture, but during their on-going war with Narfel they slowly became corrupted, as they needed to adapt and borrow 'tech' from their enemy in order to counter them. One thing they did was create suits of armor VERY similar to Helmed Horrors (but made of copper - their druid-based magic and culture shied-away from iron), and this construct worked very much in the same way as a genie lamp: If brought into close contact with a fiendish (and possibly ANY Outsider) entity it would bind the the thing within it, and anyone controlling the suit could control the enity within (and its power). In most cases, this was a very effective strategy to use against the demon-summoners of Narfel (turning their own diabolic troops against them).

However, the Copper demon (being a demon-lord and of demi-god status) was far too powerful to control, and so instead - after capturing him within a suit of copper armor - imprisoned him in Fan-Lag.* When the weave faltered (when Karsus cast his spell), the Demon was able to escape his prison cell, but not the armor. Instead, he took control of the armor and fled from Raumathar (fearing they would be able to re-establish control) down-river into nearby Tsharoon, where he became known as 'the Copper Demon of Troos'. He eventually set-up his own court and ruled the place, driving into into ruination within a few decades. The drying-up of The Endless wastes did not help matters (thats another story, but related to the fall of Imaskar), and in the end Tsharoon lie forgotten in the new desert of Quoya.

After leaving that devastation behind him, he encountered Wo Mai, and thats where the rest of the story begins. He managed to escape the acorn during the ToT, but it is unclear weather he escaped his copper Armor, or if he continues to wear it by choice.

*Fan Lag - this place is almost entirely homebrew. It is a prison-island in the center of the Upper Arundi River (which runs through Quoya) used to house dangerous criminals/enemies during the Narfel-Raumthari war, and was completely abandoned after The Great Conflagration. Picture it being like one of those comic-book prisons where they house 'supers'. There is a mention of a 'ruined city' in The Code of the Harpers sourcebook in that same exact area, and thats actually where I got the idea for the prison-city. According to that source, it was ruled by a vampire-lord in the 2e era. I just named it and gave it a history.

And once again, everything above is 99.9% homebrew, all based on tiny little canon bits some of us have woven together.



Interesting idea. We would have strong disagreements on one piece though. In my viewpoint, the Raumathari FAVORED iron. In fact, the original Old Empires points out that Raumathar was becoming powerful due to its use of iron during its infancy (while Mulhorand and Unther were still focused on copper and brass and bronze). I think the Raumathari worshipped Kossuth and Grumbar (possibly in the name Geb) heavily, and as a result they were very interested in metallurgy. Add to this fact that the fey of the area were affected by cold iron.

This is such a basis to me that I felt that the Raumathari Battlemages were not only weapon wielders but arcane armor wearers as well. I believed this even as far back as second edition. I imagine that their work in metallurgy and armor/weapon crafting eventually LED to their fascination with golems (after all, craft construct requires craft arms and armor). Therefore, the viewpoint that I'm seeing people come forward with that the Raumathari were primarily construct makers and less weapon swingers seems ass backwards to me. To me they were primarily warrior mages, though many of these warrior mages started turning to creating helmed horrors and golems and runic constructs, etc....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 May 2014 :  01:18:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and further on my view of Raumathar... it was probably a male-centered culture during most of its life (remember its life was about 750 years or so). It was probably a somewhat nature oriented society, but with a strong focus on the elements (as they saw them). PERSONALLY, I would have it that they saw the world as divided along 7 elements: earth/crystals, metal, fire, life, wood, wind/storms, and water/ice. This makes for a mix of both eastern elements (earth/metal/fire/wood/water) and western elements (air/earth/fire/water). Many of them also probably viewed the feywild as some kind of "elemental plane of wood infused with life energy". So, the men favored the magics of strong earth, metal, fire, ice, and lightning. The women favored the magic of crystals, life, wood, wind, and water. This led to the women being more druidic and shamanistic, whereas the men were generally more arcane oriented. Some women favored the more warlike magics of the men (in particular ice magic and the darker sides of life magics) and it was their teachings which led to the Durthans. Eventually, the demands of the war with Narfell began weakening the men's hold on power, and it was then that the women began gaining something of a leadership role (more as defenders of hearth and home... think somewhat like shieldmaidens). Thus, when Raumathar fell, it was the women who had stayed behind as protectors who were left to rebuild their society, and probably in the final generations of the empire the women were sick of the sexual inequality and used their influence to reverse the tables on the men. The fact that they had an influx of another society (the Rus) who were less male-centric probably had a big factor there as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 28 May 2014 :  09:58:31  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just working on my Vilhon Reach area when i noticed a possible reason for the migration of the dark churches from the Vilhon Reach region.

In 717 DR supposedly the emerald enclave was formed as it marched against Turmish, the most powerful nation in the Vilhon Reach area at that time.

It is unlikely the entire war between these two powers took place within one year in the very same year that the emerald enclave formed. Such a campaign was likely to take much longer and would no doubt have been waged against the other powers of the vilhon reach as well who would also be polluting the land.


Now the emerald enclave is composed primarily of priests and druids in service to Silvanus, Eldath, and Mielikki. All gods of nature and peaceful coexistance.

I dont think it would be too much of a step to imagine that these three churches spent several years eradicating the worship of the dark gods from the Vilhon Reach area (and i have a reason for that too since i reckon Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were behind the military coup and tyranny that ended Jhaamdath). They did this by enforcing their demands upon the nations and city states in the vilhon reach and demanding expulsion of the dark god's churches, as well as demanding they clean up their act and stop polluting nature.

The event in 717 DR was merely the final act that saw victory when the last, most powerful, and most remote nation in the Vilhon Reach area submitted to the rule of the emerald enclave and ordered the expulsion of the churches of the dark gods from their lands.

The timing is pretty close. The emerald enclave would almost certainly be against the gods of tyranny, death, murder, pain, and disease. And it would explain why the worship of the dark gods is still absent from the area because the emerald enclave are still the major force in the Vilhon Reach area and so would not allow them to return.


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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 28 May 2014 :  14:59:47  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found a date of 522 stating that Turmish's troubles with the Emerald Enclave begin on this date.

Now of course the date cannot be true because the emerald enclave did not exist until after 717 DR.

However the church of Silvanus did exist, and the church of eldath (who helped prevent the reoccurence of plague around 100 DR).

I reckon these churches had been attempting to guide the nations and city states of the Vilhon Reach towards peaceful coexistance with each other and nature.

The church of Silvanus establishes its headquarters in the Vilhon Reach in 374 DR (why place it in so remote a place unless the mainland was a land backed by evil churches).

So they spend the next few centuries gathering influence among the communities (by allying themselves with Eldath and other peace/nature powers). The period 400 DR to 500 DR is one of relative quiet (compared to the normal wars that are ongoing in the vilhon reach).

Then in 472 we have the plague in Mussum (Talona's work perhaps). 512 DR the orcs of the Orsraun Mountains attack. Then in 522 DR
it looks like Turmish is logging the Gulthmere forest too much and is warned by the Emerald Enclave to stop (could it be the evil churches suggested logging the Gulthmere forest deliberately to try and remove one of the centres of power of the good churches).

527 DR the kobolds attack (yes i know the drow cause this one but its still another sign of trouble).

614 DR Hlondeth declares independence.

640 DR the shining plains come under attack by sabre tooth tigers (Malar's involvement perhaps)

680 DR Chondathan mercenaries return from the wars in Unther and Chondath again begins to reassert its might.


I reckon the Emerald Enclave had finally had enough by 700 DR and started actively trying to eliminate the churches of the dark gods.

It can't be coincidence that following 717 DR the Emerald Enclave establishes itself in the Chondalwood and Winterwood which means it has a presence in all the major nations of the Vilhon Reach region.




And how cool would it have been if Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended during Tyr's procession of justice in the Vilhon Reach. Imagine it, the Dark Three tried to create themselves a mini empire in Netheril where they could spread tyranny, death, and murder on a massive scale (The Crown of Horns was probably meant to be placed on Karsus' head to control him).

Unfortunately Netheril crashes and burns so the Dark Three move on. They arrive in the Vilhon Reach region around about -300 and set about influencing the military before beginning a coup.

The military leader is firmly under the thumb of Bane and he becomes a hugely successful tyrant, oppressing everyone that doesnt do as he asks. He even begins to crack down on religious worship (eliminating the competition). Death and violent death would be occuring on a massive level during these crackdowns and when Jhaamdath finally gets obliterated by the tsunami even then Myrkul and Bhaal are happy.

Then Tyr turns up and tries to root out the evil in the area and has to fight off the Dark Three themselves. It says Ilmater is drawn to Tyr because of the sacrifices he had to make. What it Tyr had to sacrifice his entire procession just to beat back the Dark Three (after all they are awesomly powerful). And to top it all off, during this epic battle the Dark Three (and Tyr) ascend to godhood.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  19:39:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*Bump*

So much great info gets lost, because it winds up in unrelated threads. I was looking for everything and anything on 'Druaga' and came across this stuff. But I bumped it for a different reason altogether...

My musings on Raumathar's druid-like leanings all come from the one and only novel we have covering the place - Frostfell. At the beginning of the war, they were very much into 'nature magic' (and since they are an Imaskari survivor-state, and Imaskar had some 'fey dealings', that makes perfect sense). Later, during the war, they were adopting technology and magic from everywhere, to "win at all costs", and even made the mistake of putting one of the enemy's expatriate generals in charge of their own forces (which is when Raumathar started using fiends as well). I think it was then that that Demonbinder (I no longer have that book so I can't look up his name) started corrupting the Raumathari, and they wound-up as bad as their enemies, in the end.

Where does it say that Raumathar used Iron while the Old empires still used copper (and since FR never actually had a 'bronze age' thats just weird)? Regardless, its still reconcilable - they may have started out use their druidic magics, and then turned to iron when they began to turn to fiendish and 'Meka' techs. Binding magics fit-in with fey very well, and I would think that it was the druids who first began binding the enemies' fiendish servitors into their suits (which is why they would have used copper, because the magic would ave been ancient Fey magic). The suits would have been made by artisans, and the iron would have been reserved for other, more common weapons (Copper is MUCH more common in the Hordelands than iron, so they would have been frugal with it).

In fact, extrapolating outward - IF that entire region was the home-base for the fey (as I suspect it was), that could easily be connected to the lack of iron in the region (Fey would love a place like that), AND be connected to why the Old Empires didn't rely too much on iron - Imaskar would not have had in plenty, and they are Imaskari survivor states as well. I've just looked it up - all those ranges in the Hordelands have tin and copper - no mention of iron. And yet, strangely enough, there is a single mounatin made entirely of it way up to the north of that region (someone removed it all and dumped it there?) What if Raumathar found iron in one of the eastern Faerūnian ranges instead (like the Sunrise or Icerim Mnts.)? That would have given them that 'leg-up' on the Old Empires, me thinks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2017 19:41:53
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5187 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  21:29:12  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

*Bump*

Where does it say that Raumathar used Iron while the Old empires still used copper (and since FR never actually had a 'bronze age' thats just weird)?



History intro - FR10 Old Empires.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7262 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  22:30:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Along those lines the use of iron may have been picked up by Raumathar as a result of Narfell summoning demons (it should be noted it says iron, not steel). Granted, that would be a 3e answer for a 1e note, but...

Oh,and gotta agree... we get off subject a lot of times and get into some really good stuff that way. I think I'm a chief instigator of that at times (as seen in the above I guess). I got bad habits of just talking about whatever I want.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Icelander
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Posted - 09 Aug 2018 :  18:03:59  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's interesting to speculate about Druaga, because not only did Ed base Bane on that 'deity', but he's also listed as a Babylonian/Untheric god in D&D.

Of course, there is no Babylonian god named Druaga in real mythology. The supposedly 'Babylonian' deity was more or less invented whole cloth for the 1980 Deities and Demigod book. The 1984 computer game 'The Tower of Druaga', where he's indeed portrayed as a Babylonian demon king, is probably the closest Druaga gets to actual Mesopotamian mythology.

And, yes, I've heard the argument that the Babylonian Druaga is allegedly based on the Zoroastrian concept of Druj. To that, entirely aside from the fact that the specifics of Druaga in Deities and Demigods are still entirely made-up, I say that Indo-Iranian mythology is not Semitic mythology and Persia is not Babylon.

This means that I'd be very much in agreement of explaining Druaga in the Realms by linking him to an older culture than the Mulan, with the batrachi being something I'd personally favour.

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Icelander
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Posted - 09 Aug 2018 :  18:13:38  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To me, Stallac Benadi sounds very much like a Chondathan name. Compare it to names in the Scions of Arrabar trilogy, for example.

That does not mean Stallac Benadi himself was from Chondath, of course, but it does provide a rationale to link him to one of the many colonies Chondath most have had in the 8th century DR. Sembia was at the time a Chondathan colony and Chondathans were trading with and settling many locations in the Heartlands, North and around the Moonsea.

It's very plausible that the emigration of mercenaries from the Vilhon Reach to the Moonsea had started around this time. It's canon, if not widely mentioned, that a significant part of the surplus military population of the Moonsea city-states has always been composed of mercenaries from the Vilhon Reach, who travel there for long contracts (and probably marry and mate, in the simple ways of soldiers, while they are there, leaving behind children even if they themselves might not always settle permanently).

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Edited by - Icelander on 09 Aug 2018 18:42:14
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 09 Aug 2018 :  19:11:48  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
what difference three or four years makes, back then I was still thinking of gods as humanoid beings with humanoid feelings and motivations, and with a direct interaction and influence on the world.

I agree Stellac Benadi is likely Chondathan, that however means he could have come from the Vilhon Region, the Dragon Coast, Sembia, the Lake of Steam, even Chessenta. I'm pretty sure I read that he went north to the Moonsea to establish an outpost there so I'm veering towards him coming from Vilhon, Chessenta.

It looks like the Dark Churches moved east from the Vilhon around 700 DR and I suspect that is because there was already a following in Chessenta. I have already pegged migration into Chessenta from the Vilhon because of the plagues and the tsunami so there would have been a majority Chondathan population in eastern Chessenta (fuelling the feuding nature of the region in future years), and the potential for warfare leading up to 900 DR (when Tchazzar united Chessenta) means that there may have been enclaves of Chondathans and Banite worship throughout Chessenta.

I have decided on making Mount Thulbane a focal point for Banites and Assurites following battles there around 700 DR, this led to the churches of both religions becoming prominent in Threskel in the following centuries. But all this is homebrew development to fill in the blanks in Chessenta's history.

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Icelander
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Posted - 09 Aug 2018 :  19:24:48  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As long as you're tracking the history of Bane in the 8th century, it should probably be kept in mind that Iyachtu Xvim emerged from a gate in Westgate in 710 DR and with an army of fiends and tieflings, seized control of that city. He ruled there until 734 DR.

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Icelander
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Posted - 09 Aug 2018 :  19:46:17  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone know where the Old Church of Bane or the True Church of Bane were centered?

Or who claimed leadership of these factions?

I would think that the Black Lord's Cloak in Mourktar would have been the center of at least one of the recorded schisms in the Banite church, given their apparent independence from the Orthodox Church.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 09 Aug 2018 :  19:53:26  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good spot, although I'm not convinced there is any connection between Bane and Iyachtu Xvim at that point (except for one or both claiming a paternal link between them). I actually have Bane as still alive right up to his disappearance atop Mount Thulbane but I doubt he ever met Xvim before that point.

It is more likely that Xvim appeared and claimed a kinship with Bane to gain control over a large portion of Banite followers in the region following the sudden disappearance and assumed ascension of Bane. His explanation being that Bane becomes a true god and sends his son to guide his loyal followers to a bright future of tyrannical power.

Xvim then becomes the figurehead of this religion (around 700 DR the religion would split as Banite worship is driven out of the Vilhon so a group head north to Westgate while others head east to Threskel) and over time he becomes part of the mythology of the church of Bane, with his claim of being Bane's son also becoming part of that mythology (whether it's true or not only Iyachtu Xvim would know).

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Icelander
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Posted - 09 Aug 2018 :  20:10:45  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't, personally, see any reason to doubt the parentage of Iyachtu Xvim. Ed Greenwood states baldly in Polyhedron #71 that Iyachtu Xvim "the Godson" is the son of Bane and that he has for long years travelled the Realms enacting his father's will.

The way I see deities who achieve godhood from mortal origins is that they often take a long time (if they ever manage it) to learn to divest themselves of their mortal trappings. Giving into lust, siring offspring and even trying to build a dynasty by employing their children as their lieutenants seems entirely in character for deities whose personalities were formed during their mortal lives.

Of course, over time they learn why gods can't think like mortals, but given that mortals have lived for millennia before without progressing past some very basic psychological drives, I don't have any trouble believing that in his first millennia of divine life, Bane occasionally indulged in the kind of shenanigans that a mortal tyrant might pursue.

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