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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 15:44:22
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In my campaign world Mulhorand is on the verge of loosing it's indipendence to Thay, this event has shaken the foundations of Mulhorandi society and the peace offerings of the winning Thayans have sparked civil unrest and strife among the various clergies, with some bent on fighting until the bitter end and others determined to save the population from more useless bloodshed.
All this on Toril is reflected back on Heliopolis were the Mulhorandi deities reside: their harmony destroyed, their power base jeopardized, their faithful disheartened and their worship dwindling. Thi situation is known in wider Faerun, so the encroaching of the Faerunian pantheon adds to the problems inside the Mulhorandi pantheon.
Help me decide how the various Mulhorandi deities react to all this, the following are my hypothesis for what would happen:
- Horus-Re and Anhur: both these deities have thrown the full might of their churches at the Thayan invasion, both are determined to fight until the end and both stubbornly refuse to listen to the entreaties of other Mulhorandi deities that advocate peace and submission instead of more bloodshed. With things getting worse, the war lost and the Pharaoh signing the peace treaty, i think both deities would try to go out with a bang instead of seeing their empire and faithful subservient to the Thayans. I think Lathander and Tempus will step up and challenge the declining might of the two Mulhorandi gods and at the end the faithful of Anhur and Horus-Re will be given the choice to convert effortlessy to Tempus/Lathander or seek other ways in life. Since (almost literally) the world is watching, i doubt Shar and Hoar could spring some trap and wipe the two Mulhorandi out before the rest of the pantheon moves;
- Geb and Hathor: both deities want peace and the end of bloodshed, both deities are heartbroken for the strife of their godly family, both deities long for the faithful and other deities they left behind millenia ago to come to Toril. Since the Imaskari Planar Barrier is no more i think both would transfer back to their original Prime, giving their true faithful the choice of going with them or staying on Toril under the guidance of like-minded deities (Flandal Steelskin, Grumbar and Moradin for Geb, Chauntea and Lliira for Hathor);
- Isis: i see Isis as suffering the most from all this strife, living again the horrible days of Set's treachery and the murder of her husband Osiris, but i doubt she would leave her faithful or her husband behind (but i think Osiris would go first, see below), so i don't see her leaving Toril like Geb and Hathor. Either she stays as a declining deity or she calls on her friends Bast (who probably would call on her superior Sune) and Chauntea and entrust her faithfulls and her powers on them, merging herself with them and disappearing forever.
- Bast/Sharess: having faithful outside Mulhorand, she is in no immediate danger of disappearing and she is her own counterpart in the Faerunian pantheon so no one will come and challenge her. But in all this turmoil a lot of possibilities open up for her: will she shed her fighting aspect of leutenant of Anhur or will she seek the same position under Tempus? Will she accept Isis powers and responsibilities (at least those not directly related to Chauntea or Sune)? Will she pick up the powers and responsibilities of Anhur that are of no interest to Tempus? Will she keep up the fight against her favored enemy Set?
- Osiris: with the pantheon dissolving all around him i think this undead deity will finally resolve the (un)living paradox he is by bidding farewell to his wife Isis and merging fully with Kelemvor granting an easy transition to his faithful;
- Nehphtys: threatened by both the encroachment of Waukeen and the shadows of Mask, i think Nehphtys will give in to her paranoid greed and fight savagely for each worshipper and each Mulhorandi coin taken away from her. Maybe in the long run she will strike some kind of bargain with Waukeen, but for the moment i see her staying and fighting;
- Set: after dancing the macarena of victory a world of possibilities open up for the evil Set: will he keep up his cooperation with Tiamat or will the two deities fight each other to become the "ebilest"? Will he join in alliance with other Faerunian evil deities or will he isolate himself fighting against the world? Will he survive the coming of Lathanderites, Tyrrans, Helmites, Tormtars and all matter of foreign do-gooders now that he isn't shielded by the rest of the Mulhorandi pantheon?
- Thoth: he is integrated enough with the right Faerunian deities as to not fear any kind of heavy crusade against his worshippers, he has no direct family ties to the other Mulhorandi deities. I see him enduring and staying, with his church thriving in the increased contacts with Mystrans, Oghmanites and Gondsmen and engaging in a friendly competition with these same deities over worshippers;
Any tips? Any suggestion? Someone feels inclined to give an answer to the questions i posed?
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Edited by - Demzer on 06 Feb 2014 15:46:02
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 03:57:52
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For some reason I'm stuck on the idea that Osiris could offer his services to Kelemvor rather than be absorbed by him. Osiris could be diametrically opposed to Myrkul (assuming he lives in your homebrew). I kind of see a 'Dead Court' with Kelemvor, Jergal, the Raven Queen, Myrkul and Osiris. Kelemvor judges the dead, Jergal continues to serve him as he has, Myrkul is taken in as a 'punisher' with Osiris being used to keep an eye on him cuz Kel ain't stupid. The Raven Queen I just like and I believe you're aware of the thread concerning her possible inclusion in the pantheon.
Addendum: Isis could enter Kel's court has a possible balance to the Raven Queen (cuz nothing says Kel can't be cautious).
Edit: Btw, where my responses are concerned please understand that I'm not a big fan of deicide (or otherwise 'getting rid of' them). YMMV. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 07 Feb 2014 04:03:57 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 04:00:52
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| I really don't see why Geb and Hathor would leave...isn't this just abandoning their followers (most of whom wont be able to leave with them anyway and if they do, well, IMHO, that's just a bit hokey for me). Besides, what awaits them on their original world? I assume you mean our world since that's where they are supposed to be from...they wouldn't receive much worship here unless your homebrew is different in that regard as well. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 04:06:39
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| Horus-Re and Anhur could live on as 'freedom fighters' in Mulhorand. Their power may be dwindling but they could remain an thorn in Thay's side for centuries to come (just look how long the religious fighting has gone on in Ireland, let alone other parts of the world). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 04:13:22
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Bast/Sharess is fine as is in the Realms, IMO. No need to make any changes there.
And I think Maploq's comments on Nehphtys work just fine.
This leaves Set and Thoth. Those two pose the most problems for me (they are, IMO, the most redundant with Faerunian gods). Thoth is very close to both Azuth and Deneir in terms of areas of divine concern and Set is just another example of Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul/Cyric in many ways.
Set: best I can come up with from the top of my head...Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul will likely stay in league with each other, so maybe Set and Cyric should ban together? I'm not to excited by the notion but it adds variety. Maybe Iyachtu will join them as a sort of 'evil axis' against the other Three?
Thoth: Guess I would just go with your original idea here as I just can't think of any better use for him right now. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 09:42:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I'm not well versed in the nuances of the Mulhorandi pantheon, but I think Nephthys would strike a bargain with Waukeen almost immediately. Not that they'll be the best of friends - I kinda see them as the classic idea of the businessmen(women) who compete fiercely but hold each other in the highest regard.
Uhm, yeah, i can see that working. I'll have to think about this bargain, probably something like huge trade concessions to Waukeenars (both clergy and lay worshippers) in exchange for no aggressive encroachment. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 09:57:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
For some reason I'm stuck on the idea that Osiris could offer his services to Kelemvor rather than be absorbed by him. Osiris could be diametrically opposed to Myrkul (assuming he lives in your homebrew). I kind of see a 'Dead Court' with Kelemvor, Jergal, the Raven Queen, Myrkul and Osiris. Kelemvor judges the dead, Jergal continues to serve him as he has, Myrkul is taken in as a 'punisher' with Osiris being used to keep an eye on him cuz Kel ain't stupid. The Raven Queen I just like and I believe you're aware of the thread concerning her possible inclusion in the pantheon.
Addendum: Isis could enter Kel's court has a possible balance to the Raven Queen (cuz nothing says Kel can't be cautious).
Edit: Btw, where my responses are concerned please understand that I'm not a big fan of deicide (or otherwise 'getting rid of' them). YMMV.
No Raven Queen and no Myrkul (yet, he's still an happy camper inside the Crown). I think Osiris would merge with Kelemvor because they get along well and have very similar ethos, outlook on things and responsibilities. Also, the paradox i was referring to is that Osiris is an undead deity of death that despises sentient undead, i think he's holding on his office because it's needed but as soon as the Faerunians come knocking he'll see in merging with Kelemvor the easy way out of his current troubles.
Also, regarding the "Court of Death", i have the strong feeling Jergal wouldn't tolerate any other power too close to his puppet ruler of the time (be it Myrkul, Cyric, Kelemvor or whoever else) and i think the Fugue Plane/City of Strife/Cristal Spire is full of servants of Jergal that carry on their duties for the current "God of Death" flawlessly but would turn on him/her/it at a moment notice on Jergal's orders. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 10:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I really don't see why Geb and Hathor would leave...isn't this just abandoning their followers (most of whom wont be able to leave with them anyway and if they do, well, IMHO, that's just a bit hokey for me). Besides, what awaits them on their original world? I assume you mean our world since that's where they are supposed to be from...they wouldn't receive much worship here unless your homebrew is different in that regard as well.
Both are depicted as fading and longing to get back to wherever they came from in Faiths & Pantheons, i think the mortal crisis unfolding in front of their eyes will be the final push to get them moving. Also in my home campaign we never touched other crystal spheres and i won't touch them unless forced by my players (very unlikely), so Geb and Hathor can go wherever they want. One possible solution (and ruling that both deities could still reach Heliopolis from the other crystal sphere) is pulling the Selunnara stunt and say they transfer their worshippers to Heliopolis where they live as an happy little family forever. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 10:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Horus-Re and Anhur could live on as 'freedom fighters' in Mulhorand. Their power may be dwindling but they could remain an thorn in Thay's side for centuries to come (just look how long the religious fighting has gone on in Ireland, let alone other parts of the world).
This may be true but i don't see these two as giving up their status easily. Anhur still has regrets about the past Thayan victories and would probably die before giving them victory (and playing "freedom fighter" from within after the pharaoh has signed a peace treaty is giving them victory). Horus-Re wouldn't tolerate his mortal counterpart taking orders from someone else and not being the top of the social pyramid.
Also in the last days of the war, both Anhurites and worshippers of Horus-Re have gone into a frenzy branding traitors whoever talked about the possibility of peace treaty and sparking civil war with attacks at other clergies and temples. Whatever happens the churches of Anhur and Horus-Re have lost their pull on the population and will lose all their secular benefits after the peace is signed.
Oh and the Thayans aren't butchering everyone so after a while any kind of resistance would be purely ideological.
I understand your concerns about "getting rid of" deities but if there are Mulhorandi powers going to disappear as a direct consequence of this war is these two. |
Edited by - Demzer on 07 Feb 2014 10:51:52 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 10:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Bast/Sharess is fine as is in the Realms, IMO. No need to make any changes there.
Same for me, but reading on the various deities she is pulled in the power struggle by all the others, so i was thinking about how would she react. For example, i see her much more than Horus-Re or Anhur as representing some sort of underground "freedom fighter" deity defending the rights of the population, because her faith was always a niche one while the others were the two big political powerhouses, so the common people will likely follow a charming Sharessin tigress fighting for their rights than some failed despot of Anhur or Horus-Re looking to recoup his losses.
Also there is the divine problem of portfolio elements and divine relationships that i can either ignore completely or i need to explain the details out.
So when Anhur dies and Tempus picks up War, Conflict and Physical Prowess, what happens to Thunder and Rain? Does Tempus pick them up as a bonus or does he ignore them because he's a very focused deity (look at Garagos to see this fact, he shed even some portfolio elements directly related to war because they weren't of his liking)? Does Talos automatically get them because he's the Faerunian responsible for those? Does Bast step up and take this parts of the mantle of her ex-paramour and ex-general?
When Isis decides to shed her mantle of divinity to her friends Bast and Chauntea, who gets what? Agriculture clearly goes to Chauntea but what about the others? Does Bast claim Love and Marriage thus positioning herself as a more serious threat to her superior Sune or does she call on her to take up this responsibilities? Will the assembled deities call on Silvanus or Talos to get Weather, Eldath to get Rivers and Mystra to get Good Magic or will they divide them up between them two or three?
It all seems too much complicated to bother but i feel finding an answer may give me more plot hooks for future evolutions of Bast/Sharess and her realtionship with the rest of the pantheon.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
This leaves Set and Thoth. Those two pose the most problems for me (they are, IMO, the most redundant with Faerunian gods). Thoth is very close to both Azuth and Deneir in terms of areas of divine concern and Set is just another example of Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul/Cyric in many ways.
Set: best I can come up with from the top of my head...Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul will likely stay in league with each other, so maybe Set and Cyric should ban together? I'm not to excited by the notion but it adds variety. Maybe Iyachtu will join them as a sort of 'evil axis' against the other Three?
Thoth: Guess I would just go with your original idea here as I just can't think of any better use for him right now.
Yeah, they're the most redundant but they're two of the more unchanged by all this.
Just like Tiamat after finally killing Gilgeam stepped up her game to threaten the rest of Faerun i see Set as spreading his forces all around like venom in the veins of Faerun. He will probably work out some sort of pact with Tiamat (a necessary evil for both, seeing as they are "alone against a foreign world" or something like that) and probably Cyric will throw his lot with them (he isn't Shar toy-boy in my Realms and he has a lot of troubles with his fragmented church getting bitchslapped by my players all over Amn and Calimshan and with the Banites reaffirming their solid grip on the Black Network).
Cyric hates Bane, Tiamat has problems with Bane both geographically (Mourktar) and inside the Cult of the Dragon and Set needs allies, so this three may very well be the new thorn in the Banites side all over the place.
Thoth is some kind of weird Mystra/Azuth/Oghma/Gond/Deneir hybrid, but none of this churches is aggressive in its endeavors and recruiting strategies so i see him as enduring the strife and maybe in the long run his worshippers will start specializing in one discipline and leave him to join the appropriate faith (or maybe not, what i found interesting in the "What deity would you worship?" thread is that a lot of us listed Mystra/Oghma/Gond almost always together with one above the others but all three nonetheless so maybe the Mulhorandi share our yearning of general knowledge and of all its application instead of the Faerunian hyper-specialized worship pattern*).
*Referring here to the choice of "patron deity" as in the one that will come to pick you up on the Fugue when you die. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 10:45:38
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Also, while replying, i realized i completely overlooked one important aspect of the Mulhorandi deities and religion: the manifestations/avatars!
A lot of the deities that decide to fade away/retreat back home/die fighting may very well decide to use part of their waning divine power to give the Mulhorandi people a last hope with manifestations/chosens/avatars/empowered mortals or with the deity themselves shedding their divine mantle Waukeen-style and stepping down as very powerfull mortal to spend their last days as close to their worshippers as possible.
I know Ao kind of like forbidden this when he rejoined the manifestations with the deities when he dissolved the IPB but hey, a dying deity may very well say "F**k your rules! I will stay with my faithful and not let your children have an easy win against my faith!"
This way i can see an Anhurite avatar doing the freedom fighter and a peaceful settlment with the last manifestations of Geb and Hathor ruling their faithful until their deaths and an Isis aspect travelling far and wide to spread hope and love and tend to the land.
Horus-Re is the only one i would see NOT doing this, he strikes me as an "all or nothing" deity, adverse to change, he'll probably just give up and let Lathander preach about "a new beginning for Mulhorand". |
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Deific Battle Royale
