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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 16:41:35
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Okay, so I think most of us agree that the gods are all coming back. This got me to thinking that E and V are coming back so where does this leave the Masked Lady? Likely she will no longer exist officially. Since the Realms have a few canonical instances of dual-worshiping priest(esses), this got me to thinking...why not have E and V forge an agreement with one another to maintain the ML?
A few points:
1. First, I'm assuming (for my homebrew if it doesn't exist officailly) that a heresy exists around the continued existence of the ML. In response to this, E and V decide to maintain the ML facade rather than foster a false heresy.
Second, this agreement is due, in part, because V was defeated and wont really get much, if any, power from the ML heresy. So he enters the agreement with E to gain some power while E doesn't risk losing power ...or being altered by...the heresy (being altered by the heresy is her primary worry).
Third, since E won the battle between them, she retains most of the power from the ML facade (I'm thinking a 70/30 split, not that it matters). She refuses to give up more due to V's evil/untrustworthy nature.
Finally, despite their resurrection by Ao, neither deity is brought back to their original natures. Both of them still harbor some after effects of the merging. So, E has become CG with neutral tendencies while V is CE with leanings towards CN now. Although, IMO, V has always struck me as more NE than CE. I may go with NE with a tendency towards more neutral behavior.
Now a few more musings beyond this:
1. I am looking for a sort of 'grudging reconciliation' on the part of E and V. They don't see eye to eye, but both want more for the drow as a race than to be slaves to Lloth (E moreso than V, of course, as he would like them to serve him exclusively). For his part, V simply wants them to be free with him as their primary focus in all matters religious and divine. And he sees evil as the best way to ensure that his people remain strong...though he has seen some wisdom in cooperation through his merging with E.
2. Regardless, both have made plans to betray the other in some way. For V, this may mean slaying E at some point. If not, then at least knocking her down a few pegs so she takes a back seat to his influence. For E, this is something different. She wants to 'redeem' V if she can or, barring that, ensure that he retains less power and influence than she does...but she isn't stupid and makes plans to kill him if necessary (or rather, defend her self with a vengeance).
3. Unbeknownst to either of them, the ML may actually take on a life of her own as a separate entity altogether. I don't know if another being should usurp the power being fed into the ML, or if a new consciousness should be birthed as a result of this. It may have to be both as some threads here at CK seem to indicate that divinity needs an infusion from a mortal soul. So, perhaps a mortal is somehow merged with an 'avatar' of the ML and a new entity is born?
4. I see the ML as CN with good tendencies but willing to do many things that border on evil to accomplish her goals. She will embody a truly 'free' drow people who remain strong by being ruthless but not aggressive and trying to cooperate with others as much as they can. My statement of ruthlessness is meant to be in response to aggression directed towards them/her.
I really need opinions on this to tweak it so that it remains true to E and V and to the Realms in general. I would particularly like any examples of drow who would make good choices for the soul-infusion needed for the ML. Regardless, the Masked Lady WILL exist in my homebrew...she was one of the most intriguing ideas I've seen come out of a novel in many years.
I'm also working on a 'married' drow NPC couple who worship her. He, a CN(E) Ftr/Rog/Sor and she a CN(G) Clr/Ftr/Wiz. Both very capable agents of the Masked Lady.
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 03 Feb 2014 16:50:42
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 19:46:52
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Just throwing stray thoughts out here but you may want to throw Zinzerena into the mix, being a female version of Vhaeraun she may very well be the shell capable of bridging the differences between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
You don't even need to sweat too much why she's still around: details about her demise are fuzzy, many drows secretly believe she escaped her fate and since the accounts says she disappeared during or shortly after the ToT you can easily go the Waukeen-route and have her relinquish her deific power (thus Lolth sort of killed her) and go on as a powerful mortal, stalking the underdark and plotting revenge.
Then the Masked Lady appears and shortly thereafter both V and E bite the dust (in canon) and she starts working her way to get on top of this whole ML thing, only to be used as a conduit for the merge of the other two drow deities the moment of their resurrection.
It's all kind of jumbled, but putting together 3 of the 4 anti-Lolth drow gods (Ghaunaduar is a special case) with two coming to an uneasy truce and one serving as shell/mortal infusion for their merge sounds like trouble for all the spider-kissers out there. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 20:12:09
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I like this kind of approach. I've always thought that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun should work together (to an extent, ofc), as they both represent different approaches to freedom, to the act of taking a stand and forging one's own future, making one's own choices instead of being forced into them (mainly for the drow, but not only for them).
Keeping a facade in order to draw more drow to their cause sounds like a good idea to me, if you want to keep all 3 of them (even tho point 2 seems a bit off to me: sure, making self-defense plans would be understandable, but planning to get rid of your ally, making once again the same error as before would be not, especially if they saw their collaboration bringing neat results).
As for having Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and the ML simultaneously existing as 3 separate entities, it would create some redundancy IMO, but if you really like the idea, then more power to you.
For the ML to become a third deity, you could just make her a completely new consciousness w/o giving yourself too much trouble -IMO-. However, since you are looking for a mortal to become her, I'd suggest Liriel (even tho i like her much more as a simple drow), as the way she acts can fit what you seek in the ML.
Also, what would be her relationship with the siblings? Would she ally with Eilistraee and -cautiously- with Vhaeraun, or would she simply work alone (if -for example- Liriel was to become her, I think that she and E would probably fight together. Not sure about V tho, considering the level of hostilities she held towards his followers and vice-versa)? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Feb 2014 20:58:53 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 20:12:17
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Well this clearly is speculation. What little that was written (That I have read) the Mask Lady can not be a viable deity. Domains of Good and Evil are not very compatible. The only deities that can handle both must be greater deities, near AO.
While E and V clearly have had codes of honor and opposition to Lolth, they also were in opposition to each other. E the message was equality for all (well female slanted) and V was for superiority of Drow (male slanted in many ways). The Masked Lady can not long endure until the twins need to split apart (or one over whelm the other). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 03:50:40
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@Demzer: Zinzerena 'as-is' wouldn't be a good fit for the ML methinks (being an evil goddess of assassination) but she could be tweaked to fill the role. Basically, I would have her traveling Toril in mortal form since the ToT and coming to realize some errors in her previous life. She realizes that her focus on murder (and evil in general) was not the best path. She could come to believe that another path is better. While not changing in a dramatic sense (she's still willing to do some pretty harsh things to achieve her goals) she focuses more on freeing the drow from the clutches of Lloth (not necessarily from an evil path though...redemption is E's goal, hers is freedom of choice). And she would differ from V because he's essentially a male version of her original self...she's left that path AND she is neither evil (anymore) nor looking to take Lloth's place as the supreme god of the drow (which V wants to do).
So here she is, a mortal traveling Toril when all of a sudden the various gods are brought back by Ao. Either he brings Zinzerena back as a goddess or he doesn't. If he does (I doubt 5e will restore her but who knows) then she could either snatch the ML away from E and V OR she could just enter into an agreement with E for the mantle of ML without V having anything to say about it. This way she gets stronger and a decent ally without angering V (other than the fact that he would likely be an enemy by default).
If Ao doesn't restore her divinity then it may come down to being in the right place at the right time. Z could be on the verge of true death when she seizes an opportunity to merge with the ML and is granted the position by agreement with E and/or V and Ao's approval. Or mayhap she simply petitions E as a mortal and Ao approves. It could be done many ways (though I would rather concoct an interesting story behind it all). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 04 Feb 2014 04:09:59 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 03:50:53
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| I just want V and E back. Period |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 04:00:28
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quote:
Keeping a facade in order to draw more drow to their cause sounds like a good idea to me, if you want to keep all 3 of them (even tho point 2 seems a bit off to me: sure, making self-defense plans would be understandable, but planning to get rid of your ally, making once again the same error as before would be not, especially if they saw their collaboration bringing neat results).
Drawing drow away from Lloth is one of their motivations for keeping the facade of the ML in place. But I don't see point 2 as being off at all. V is evil after all and will almost certainly attempt to betray her again (assuming such behavior isn't ended by Ao altogether).
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As for having Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and the ML simultaneously existing as 3 separate entities, it would create some redundancy IMO, but if you really like the idea, then more power to you.
True, but each of them has a different focus. E wants to redeem her people in addition to freeing them. V really just wants to take Lloth's place as their slavemaster (despite anything he says to the contrary...remember his official alignment is CE). My version of the ML would be true freedom to live as they please whether good or evil (and she would embrace a level of both btw).
quote:
For the ML to become a third deity, you could just make her a completely new consciousness w/o giving yourself too much trouble -IMO-. However, since you are looking for a mortal to become her, I'd suggest Liriel (even tho i like her much more as a simple drow), as the way she acts can fit what you seek in the ML.
Also, what would be her relationship with the siblings? Would she ally with Eilistraee and -cautiously- with Vhaeraun, or would she simply work alone (if -for example- Liriel was to become her, I think that she and E would probably fight together. Not sure about V tho, considering the level of hostilities she held towards his followers and vice-versa)?
I'm actually not fond of mortal ascension (though this would be a minor deity so I'm OK with it). My only reason for bringing in the mortal idea is because there is some indication that gods need mortal souls. But this could be answered by Zinzerena's return if she is mortal but was once a deity herself. It kind of eliminates the mortal ascension conundrum.
I like Liriel...but I prefer she remain a mortal. I could see her following the ML though. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 04:05:37
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quote:
Well this clearly is speculation. What little that was written (That I have read) the Mask Lady can not be a viable deity. Domains of Good and Evil are not very compatible. The only deities that can handle both must be greater deities, near AO.
While E and V clearly have had codes of honor and opposition to Lolth, they also were in opposition to each other. E the message was equality for all (well female slanted) and V was for superiority of Drow (male slanted in many ways). The Masked Lady can not long endure until the twins need to split apart (or one over whelm the other).
I'm not sure your first point is valid. Per 3.5 rules, clerics who worship neutral deities must choose either evil or good (if they are offered at all...which the ML wouldn't) and must choose positive or negative energy for turning/rebuking undead. But again, I wouldn't have the ML offer good or evil domains.
Your second point is quite valid. But I see this as a grudging response to the heresy that springs up, which will exist whether they want it too or not. By choosing to work together they offer a united front against Lloth who will otherwise divide and conquer them if she can. But, as you said, they are in opposition...which is why they make plans to betray and defend against betrayal. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 04:07:29
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| @CD: You and me both...but I really liked the Masked Lady when she was presented in the novels and I'm determined to have her in my homebrew. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 09:15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
[...](not necessarily from an evil path though...redemption is E's goal, hers is freedom of choice)[...]
Idk, I don't think that strict redemption as Eilistraee's goal, more like promoting in the drow the freedom of choice and expression that leads to it. However it should be freedom for all drow (for all creatures, actually), and this rules out ''evil paths'', as actions that damage others for one's own advantage (or for the lulz, if you want it) inherently limit other people's freedom.
Nonetheless,
''Eilistraee is forging her own path, one that welcomes creatures of all races who revel in life and the freedom of expression of all that entails.'' (or something along these lines)
So yeah: the ML approach would still be a lot different from E's.
quote:
V is evil after all and will almost certainly attempt to betray her again (assuming such behavior isn't ended by Ao altogether).
V is evil, but not stupid. He saw how the hostility between him and his sister favored Lolth, so I don't think that he'd try to reignite it once again, or to get rid of someone who can be useful to him (drow follwing the ML facade -or even E- are better than drow turning to another deity or to none at all). I also don't think that V sees Eilistraeens as a threat for his goal of returning the dark elves to their ''golden age''. However at the end of the day, this is just how I see the matter: in your homebrew it's all about what you like more, ofc.
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I'm actually not fond of mortal ascension (though this would be a minor deity so I'm OK with it). My only reason for bringing in the mortal idea is because there is some indication that gods need mortal souls. But this could be answered by Zinzerena's return if she is mortal but was once a deity herself. It kind of eliminates the mortal ascension conundrum.
I like Liriel...but I prefer she remain a mortal. I could see her following the ML though.
Yes, I too prefer Liriel as a drow, and I agree that a tweaked Zinzerena could fit the role of the ML.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Feb 2014 10:27:40 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 17:52:08
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Just like Ao didn't recall Waukeen to the heavens when the ToT ended (and she was alive), he wouldn't recall Zinzerena if she shed her divinity to escape Lolth (meaning here that when Lolth "finished her off" Zinzerena secretly escaped but left her divinity behind for Lolth to take to prevent the Spider Queen from noticing no power boost and thus understanding Z escaped alive).
A way to go about it is that Zinzerena (now an extremely powerful mortal) used the absence of both E and V to claim she was an emissary or avatar of the ML to jump-start her cult again, and when E and V come back they agree to boost her to divinity and merge parts of their essences and sentiences with her to open a third front against Lolth.
Also any hint that ML is really just Z anew (similarity in rituals or in one of her avatar forms or marks left by her clergy during action against Lolth's worshippers) would be in and of itself a great public victory against the Lolthite hierarchy ("Ha! Look! The Vermin-Queen couldn't even kill a lone assassin! She's weak, powerless , unfit and unworthy of guiding the drow!" or something along those lines), each ML's faithful victory would double up reminding everyone of Lolth past failure. |
Edited by - Demzer on 04 Feb 2014 17:53:03 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 18:12:32
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Oh I like that Demzer, I really like that spin on Zs story. The only hiccup I see is merging the story of the ML (from the E/V conflict) with Z. I mean, how do those who worship the ML (who presumably believe her to be an aspect of E) reconcile with the signs that she is actually Z? Don't get me wrong...it's meant to have its genesis in a heresy so pretty much anything goes but someone, somewhere, is going to figure out the truth. What would be the fallout from that?
Now, do we really need Vs approval for this? I could see E simply 'splitting off' that part of her consciousness that was the ML and implanting it into Z (which should have the added effect of moving her a little further from evil). If V shares part of his consciousness it could backfire on E and Z eventually. I just don't see him not implanting a 'bug' in her to try something ebil later one. Of course, that could be a good story (and it's not like I ever have to use it anyway) so mayhap it's best to have him involved as well. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2014 : 11:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
The only hiccup I see is merging the story of the ML (from the E/V conflict) with Z. I mean, how do those who worship the ML (who presumably believe her to be an aspect of E) reconcile with the signs that she is actually Z?
Why should anyone care? The ML faithful already know they're venerating some sort of E-V hybrid (and this, btw, means both E and V get some worship from individuals who may not have given them any credit before, since the ML falls into the grey area between CE and CB thus being the perfect bridge for middle-of-the-way rebels to Lolth) and V is a god of subtlety and deception, most of the worshippers would see all the Z stuff as yet another way to weaken the Lolthite hierachy from the shadows, a useful lie, a bluff meant to catch the Lolthites off guard and (if we go by strict interpretation of canon) that would also encourage true Lolthites to strike at the sparse Z faithful (remember that in canon Z is taken as an alias by Lolth), thus weakening the Spider-Queen even more.
Now, in time, if all goes well and Lolth sheds her Z alias, i can see all sort of mischief going on in the ML church with Z wanting to go her own way (with the bulk of the faithful) and reclaiming her old name and V trying to backstab both the ladies and E trying to turn both the rogues into shining examples of goodness through magic and other means. But that's the (very) long run, as i see it, this whole ML business has only one objective: weaken Lolth the most by opening a third front and leeching even more drows (those that wouldn't worship E or V because they're too extreme one way or another) from the strangle-hold imposed by Lolthite clergy.
V isn't needed as much as is better to have him in, just like the original short-lived ML was able to accomplish something E alone wouldn't have had the means to, having another god strenghten this anti-Lolth coalition.
As i said, after a while, if the ML church is successful, the resolve of E, V or Z may start to give way to take-over plans, but in the first century or so they all need the others to muscle their way in drow society against the Spider-Queen, that's something (cooperation) E and V probably have learned from their past demises and Z doesn't hold enough power to threaten them both (at the start). |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2014 : 13:23:55
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| I actually kind of liked the Masked Lady and would not mind seeing her return in some form. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2014 : 13:58:39
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Ok I'm sold in the inclusion of Z (she's interesting in her own right anyway and she's a good fit for the ML if she's not evil). Her worship will be comparatively small against V (as I think most male drow will gravitate to him unless of good alignment) but it could actually become larger than Es (because neutral may be easier for the average drow to follow when coming out of such an evil culture).
@Thauranil: Yeah I would like her to exist officially as well...but I'd be surprised if they included her.
For the record...I'm going to re-read the thread on the Raven Queen...she's an interesting deity as well and I'd like to include her in the pantheon as well. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Lady
