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 Cadderly Bonaduce is the most powerful cleric ever
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  20:08:25  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
Do you think Cadderly Bonaduce is the most powerful cleric ever? I mean in game terms, he could cast any cleric spell on the fly, on top of all of his other abilities.

Discuss.

Choices:

Yes
No

(Anonymous Vote)

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  20:51:36  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Matron Yvonnel Baenre was 25th level.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  21:13:04  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forget the name but I believe there is/was a Druid 30 member of the Emerald Enclave. And evidence shows that all 3 of these priests were "Chosen" of their respective gods.

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MrHedgehog
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Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  22:35:54  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She may have been higher level but Cadderly was able to tap directly into the song of Deneir, or whatever, and do things that were not constrained by game rules. His power as such was fairly evidently beyond most other spellcasters even ones technically higher level.

The level 30 druid was from the Vilhon Reach book.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  22:38:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Qilué Veladorn, in addition to being a powerful priestess, was a Chosen of Mystra.

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Shadowsoul
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Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  22:55:52  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Qilue like 16th level?

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
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Kentinal
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Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  23:08:19  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Qilué Veladorn, in addition to being a powerful priestess, was a Chosen of Mystra.



C16, DD3 was last stat I could find, however there certainly is LA of +2 for being Drow. The LA of being Chosen of Mystra I have no idea.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  23:20:50  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure if it's legit but check this out.

http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Cadderly_Chosen.html

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Kentinal
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Posted - 26 Jan 2014 :  23:30:18  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Not sure if it's legit but check this out.

http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Cadderly_Chosen.html



I just saw that, fan developed, however looking at CR the LA of +4 was applied to Cadderly. It would appear fair that Qilué Veladorn should get at least that same +4 LA if not more for being Chosen of Mystra.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Diffan
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Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  00:27:02  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fzoul Chembryl, Chosen of Bane. CR 23 (Clr 17/ Hierophant 2) and quite possibly one of the most strongest clerics and influential characters in the Realms.

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  00:32:52  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

She may have been higher level but Cadderly was able to tap directly into the song of Deneir, or whatever, and do things that were not constrained by game rules. His power as such was fairly evidently beyond most other spellcasters even ones technically higher level.

The level 30 druid was from the Vilhon Reach book.



True, but I wouldn't rule out old Yvonnel. She did annihilate the entire compound of House Oblodra. And there's a reason she was referenced in the 4E Menzo book as "The Eternal" and I'm not just talking about her age. ;)
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  00:36:01  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fzoul was pretty bad-arse. There were always hints of him being something more after having a new body created for him and that involved him being smarter, wiser etc. Wish we could have learned more about that.

Being a Chosen of two goddesses, Qilue was probably a powerhouse beyond just her level too. Another of our Silver Ladies I dearly wish we'd have seen more of.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  00:48:35  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just voted no. Cadderly is tough and I really liked the Cleric Quintet series...but I think he's marginally weaker than some of those put forward here.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  00:49:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
guess I should read past the 3rd book in the series.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  01:18:02  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think alot of the powers of these characters is a classic "it depends" situation.

For instance, Matron Yvonnel Baenre was 25th level, but also the First Matron Mother of Menzo. And I've always likened that position to Vangerdahast, a title that comes with a slew of additional powers, perhaps even in addition to her "special relationship" with Lolth.

And when we're talking Chosen of the various gods, many of these characters probably fall into the same lines, we just don't know about their full powers as of yet. For instance, in Menzo, Yvonnel would absolutely destroy Cadderly, put her on the surface and its possible Cadderly would prevail etc.

For whatever reason, and I know it's been brought up before, we tend to see many more powerful wizards than priests. Rather strange there is such an imbalance. Unless, again, we just don't know as much about them as wizards. ;)
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Cards77
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USA
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Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  02:08:26  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think this questions is flawed. "Powerful" can mean MANY things. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of creation magic, Cadderly would obviously be far far more powerful than anyone not a god. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of combat, either personal or otherwise, I think Yvonnel Baenre would utterly destroy Cadderly as she obviously would have access to many unique and extremely powerful destructive and defensive magics (spells and items) just based on the deity she worships.

Likwise, Cadderly would probably be hard to beat in terms of healing and creation magic.

Edited by - Cards77 on 27 Jan 2014 02:09:40
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jordanz
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509 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  03:18:41  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Do you think Cadderly Bonaduce is the most powerful cleric ever? I mean in game terms, he could cast any cleric spell on the fly, on top of all of his other abilities.

Discuss.




I thought the thing was he could also cast any spell up to ninth level......maybe beyond?

Pretty much "on the fly" he didn't need spell components so he was more like a divine sorcerer/priest.

What was his biggest feat?

Is it me or should he have been chosen of Azuth?

Edited by - jordanz on 27 Jan 2014 03:40:19
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1112 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  06:24:01  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fzoul certainly held a lot more temporal power than Cadderly. Cadderly wasn't even the highest ranking priest in his own church.

So I guess the question is: Are you defining the power of an NPC by his class levels and in-game abilities?

Sure the Song of Deneir grants Cadderly awesome spellcasting abilities but if he overuses them, they drain his life energy and then he requires the direct intervention of his god to restore his vitality.

He can create virtually any magic item (short of artifacts) imaginable but he chooses not to, preferring more mundane concerns like his garden, tending to his library and tinkering with low-magic inventions.

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Madpig
Learned Scribe

Finland
124 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  08:41:49  Show Profile Send Madpig a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Not sure if it's legit but check this out.

http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Cadderly_Chosen.html



I think that is not legit. Come on, those psionics. That writeup says Cadderly is able to cast ANY psionics. There was certainly no mention of that kind of thing. It was said in Servant of the Shard that he was mentally so strong Kimmuriel could not affect him psionicly.

Also that thing with spellcasting: It was spefically mentioned in Servant of the Shard that he was NOT prepared to fight drow, when he was prepared to cast against dragon. I give that it is novel, but still its really contradicting with that writeup.
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MrHedgehog
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Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  09:47:43  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think Cadderly's powers can be quantified in game terms. He was made for a story not to be "played". Even if his super spellcasting weakens or kills him he still has the most potential power, doesn't he? Most powerful is pretty subjective but being able to cast ANY spell seems unbeatable.

I also don't think all Chosen are equally powerful. Other chosen certainly have different bonuses for being the chosen of their deity. They may go about it differently, with different inestments and with different results. Presumably the Tome of Universal harmony is the key and so we couldn't say him being Chosen is the same as Fzoul, etc. Deneir and whoever made that book probably found some special way that other deities don't know about or unable to do. (He is the god of literacy, etc. so he might have special connections to magic/books that are distinct from the Chosen of Mystra/Bane, etc. ) While in game terms things are standardized and made equal the plot of a story, much less a "real" place with magic, don't follow those rules necessarily.


I had previously assumed Yvonnel destroying the Obladra compound was an act of Lolth not her personal power (or referencing game mechanics in any way)


I took the original post to be refering to spellcasting power not attempting
to determine who has most "power" on the whole.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  10:48:42  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

I think this questions is flawed. "Powerful" can mean MANY things. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of creation magic, Cadderly would obviously be far far more powerful than anyone not a god. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of combat, either personal or otherwise, I think Yvonnel Baenre would utterly destroy Cadderly as she obviously would have access to many unique and extremely powerful destructive and defensive magics (spells and items) just based on the deity she worships.

Likwise, Cadderly would probably be hard to beat in terms of healing and creation magic.



Well don't forget that any spell Old Baenre can cast, Cadderly can cast as well.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Mapolq
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Brazil
465 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  11:46:02  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't vote, but as with most of these threads, the safe and smart answer is "no". Or rather "we don't know". He's clearly top-tier, but to claim the mantle of "most powerful ever" you simply need to overshadow everyone so completely that anyone can't even think of a contender, whereas with Cadderly we can. Iyraclea, the Mistmaster, Holycoin Olehm, Qilué, Matron Baenre, Fzoul - those can all be argued to be in his league, though we know little about some. I guess that one Sharran Prince of Shade would qualify as well (I don't follow the Shades really).

Leaving Shinthala aside since she's a druid, but she's another big fish. On the matter of non-cleric powerful worshippers/agents, so is Slarkrethel (well, big squid in his case ) and most Chosen of Mystra.

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Edited by - Mapolq on 27 Jan 2014 11:54:36
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_Jarlaxle_
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Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  11:56:49  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cadderly is far from being the most powerfull cleric ever. Please provide us with a citation that says he can cast every existing spell (I doubt there is one).
It would be rather strange that a lesser deity can provide one of his choosen with a far more powerfull ability then every major deity (even the godess of magic) ever has.
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Madpig
Learned Scribe

Finland
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Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  12:31:42  Show Profile Send Madpig a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

Cadderly is far from being the most powerfull cleric ever. Please provide us with a citation that says he can cast every existing spell (I doubt there is one).
It would be rather strange that a lesser deity can provide one of his choosen with a far more powerfull ability then every major deity (even the godess of magic) ever has.



Source was that writeup earlier in this scroll.
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Derulbaskul
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Singapore
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Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  13:13:57  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, because he shares his surname with a member of the Patridge Family and that makes him highly vulnerable to mockery.

Honestly, who knows?

Who's the author? Who's the DM? There's no canon answer for a shared world like FR.

Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.
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Cards77
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USA
549 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2014 :  14:08:32  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

I think this questions is flawed. "Powerful" can mean MANY things. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of creation magic, Cadderly would obviously be far far more powerful than anyone not a god. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of combat, either personal or otherwise, I think Yvonnel Baenre would utterly destroy Cadderly as she obviously would have access to many unique and extremely powerful destructive and defensive magics (spells and items) just based on the deity she worships.

Likwise, Cadderly would probably be hard to beat in terms of healing and creation magic.



Well don't forget that any spell Old Baenre can cast, Cadderly can cast as well.



I don't really see how this translates into game terms. Maybe it doesn't. He may be able to cast every cleric spell from the "core" spells plus the domains that Denier has, but there are still plenty of spells that are unique to Lolth in general and Menzo in particular.
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