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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Aug 2016 : 15:26:04
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well my idea for a mythallar is that it is its own mini weave and thats why it screws up elven abilities because it slowly drains magic from the weave around it to power it (also why it made the phaerimm sick)
You mix two mostly-unrelated issues here.
As to the main one: I asked about this, but no answer so far.
quote:
Do quasi items are attuned to a particular mythallar and only work within that one. If you move then you need to attune to a new one.
Not really. Or if they do, the adjustment was so quick and smooth that it was not noticeable as such.
Unlike e.g. an elf's magical "rooting" in a new world, which takes 50 years (per The Complete Book of Elves). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2016 : 23:08:10
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| Where it take it's energy from if it isn't connected to Weave? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 20:57:27
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As for insect race - Tri-Keen are living in Shaar plains so it is not so hard to imagine another step into Zakhara. I would suggest another route than Bedine (portal everybody?). Alas I am no expert in Al Quadim setting and have gone a different route for it myself.
As for mythalars and weave - I understand it that magic is the Creation power (that is why gods use it also) that is used originaly to transform and populate Toril by divine beings. It is connected to life and Ethereal plane (there are clear signs of interaction between them) - the Creation material. In ancient times magic was used more heavily in form of raw magic and Weave was a form of protection and stabilisation for the world (less and less powerful effects can get through) but that seems to be the same as you wrote. So mythallar being able to draw directly from raw magic would be a danger from Mystra's POV and probably wouldn't work. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 22:09:13
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So your Nether Scrolls are not just artefact but a source of Weave??? Wow it's a important piece of reptile skin indeed...
"if the weave is absent than anything else will do" - how about Shadow Weave? It is right there :-)
With gods I work like with CEO's - they set policies and long term strategy and if they need to make that report instead of you they will not be happy (and they will also not be in their office for those who can use it for their own benefit). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2016 : 01:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well my idea for a mythallar is that it is its own mini weave and thats why it screws up elven abilities because it slowly drains magic from the weave around it to power it (also why it made the phaerimm sick)
Where does it say that mythallars screw up elven abilities?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2016 : 22:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Where does it say that mythallars screw up elven abilities?
-- George Krashos
Elves have abilities? :-) I thought they are the ones screwing around... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 16:41:13
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From what I understand there are 3 complete sets (as I've always theorized there should be).
IIRC, each set has 21 scrolls, but I could be wrong on that part. Netherese lore was never my strong suit. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2017 : 20:06:47
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This old scroll about the Nether Scrolls is worth reading, and includes a summary (by me!) of all 1E/2E/3E canon references to the Nether Scrolls.
100 Nether Scrolls. Two sets of 50 scrolls each, though nasty elves stole one full set and transformed it into a tree. Each set is divided into five basic sections of ten scrolls each. Each scroll contains "endless and endlessly changing" magic lore, more than could be known in a lifetime, sort of like Wikipedia pages are each filled with endless links to other Wikipedia pages. The Nether Scrolls are artifacts, apparently tied in some intrinsic fashion to the Weave and the Realms, many scrolls have been lost or stolen or destroyed over the ages yet they keep on magically replenishing themselves and reappearing in the oddest places. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Jan 2017 20:11:21 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2017 : 23:18:26
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Except that now there are three sets, as I've always theorized there should have been. Why would THREE races work on something, just to create TWO sets when they are finished?
Sounds like a war waiting to happen (and I do still think the Sarrukh turned on the other two Creatori anyway, because, ya' know... reptiles). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2017 02:48:36 |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 03:26:11
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Netheril created what they did due to human age progression. Elven High Mages are some of the most earth shattering spellcasters on Abeir Toril, but they lack the urgent, hurried, hasty desires of spellcasting as Humans do. Therefore the silly things the Netherese humans did and still do are subject to this pattern. Humans age faster and so master the art differently. Not quicker, just less patient, less wiser. The Ultra-powerful Elven High Mages have made such disasters as The FIRST sundering-ripping of Faerun that created the Inner-sea. So if the things that the Netherese do make no sense, then I just chock it up to the human pattern of learning The Art.
I say blame it all on The Nether Scrolls and be done with it. lol.
CEV |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 05:19:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Except that now there are three sets, as I've always theorized there should have been. Why would THREE races work on something, just to create TWO sets when they are finished?
I thought the third set was non-canon... Am I mistaken?
(Not disagreeing with you; I can't think of a good explanation for only two sets, either) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 07:41:31
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Yeah, I guess I just take anything by Krash (or Eric, or Steven, or Tom, etc) as 'canon', even if its never been written in a canon source.
My bad. 
And since I've been thinking about the 'copper' set for at least a decade now, maybe I should give it its Aearee name - "Feathers of the Undying Phoenix"
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 10:10:51
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Okay. I thought it was the Krashlore being referenced. Just wanted to make sure I'd not missed something else.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 17:13:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im away from my archive right now and just had an idea. Can someone remind me how the nether scrolls are structured.
Is it 7 sets of 7 scrolls plus one spare?
Anyone else think myrjala as a name sounds a lot like a netherese device?
Since you are obviously looking for sevenths... there are seven sisters :-)
myrjala sounds more arabic to me so Shining South/Zakhara/Calimshan?
BTW Krashlore is great but it would be nice to not confuse less knowledgable scribes with claiming it is canon. |
Edited by - Wrigley on 16 Jan 2017 17:15:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 17:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
BTW Krashlore is great but it would be nice to not confuse less knowledgable scribes with claiming it is canon.
To be fair, no one specifically said his stuff was canon, and once it was realized that a mistake was made, it was point-blank stated that Krash's stuff wasn't canon.
As for me, I personally use a classification of "semicanon" for stuff like that... It's the classification I use for stuff that is really good lore from previously published Realms designers, but was not published by WotC. It's not WotC canon, but it's canon enough for me. (I don't use "fanon" for such material, because it's from past designers, not regular fans) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 17:43:19
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There is a 'secret history' that most people are unaware, being kept by the people who did most of the late 2e/3e sourcebooks. I'd call it a 'setting bible', but it was started retroactively, so I am not sure that term fits. Maybe 'deep history' would be better.
Sometimes they are able to sneak some of this in - they were able to do that a lot in the 3e splats. But a great deal of it never sees the light of day - it just gets passed-around between the 'keepers of the history', who are constantly tweaking it and adding more stuff to it (especially when major events happen in the Realms, and some author/designer uses something that had already had an assigned 'history').
Thus, there is a 'canon behind the canon'. I've been lucky enough to see tiny pieces of it. Some of you have as well, in Krash's articles. So when it comes to those people, I would say it IS canon, but it just hasn't made it into an official source yet. Also, if something appears under Ed's banner, then its pretty-much the same thing as canon. Whats the difference between him saying it, and him taking something George (or someone else) wrote and saying, "Yes, thats exactly like it happened"?
Not sure if I understand 'canon' anyway. Its not like its set in stone - its almost as malleable as fanlore. Some guy who never read anything pertaining to FR can be hired by Hasbro tomorrow and change everything, whilst people who have studied the history intently for 30 years have no say over it. Pretty stupid, huh? What if the CEO of Hasbro has a grandson that hated Elminster and always thought he should have secretly been a lizard-person? The CEO puts his grandson in charge of WotC and that happens. End of story. 'Canon' is just fanlore written by someone lucky enough to get the right job... its meaningless.
IMO, of course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 19:13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is a 'secret history' that most people are unaware, being kept by the people who did most of the late 2e/3e sourcebooks. I'd call it a 'setting bible', but it was started retroactively, so I am not sure that term fits. Maybe 'deep history' would be better.
Sometimes they are able to sneak some of this in - they were able to do that a lot in the 3e splats. But a great deal of it never sees the light of day - it just gets passed-around between the 'keepers of the history', who are constantly tweaking it and adding more stuff to it (especially when major events happen in the Realms, and some author/designer uses something that had already had an assigned 'history').
Thus, there is a 'canon behind the canon'. I've been lucky enough to see tiny pieces of it. Some of you have as well, in Krash's articles. So when it comes to those people, I would say it IS canon, but it just hasn't made it into an official source yet. Also, if something appears under Ed's banner, then its pretty-much the same thing as canon. Whats the difference between him saying it, and him taking something George (or someone else) wrote and saying, "Yes, thats exactly like it happened"?
Not sure if I understand 'canon' anyway. Its not like its set in stone - its almost as malleable as fanlore. Some guy who never read anything pertaining to FR can be hired by Hasbro tomorrow and change everything, whilst people who have studied the history intently for 30 years have no say over it. Pretty stupid, huh? What if the CEO of Hasbro has a grandson that hated Elminster and always thought he should have secretly been a lizard-person? The CEO puts his grandson in charge of WotC and that happens. End of story. 'Canon' is just fanlore written by someone lucky enough to get the right job... its meaningless.
IMO, of course.
What makes canon important is that it is what is official. It's a common starting point. Sure, it's been mangled beyond all recognition in some cases, outright ignored and disregarded in others, and flipped 180 degrees in still other cases, but no matter what they do with it, it's still the common starting point for everyone, whether they're the newest fan or a veteran author.
Obviously, we all spin our own Realms in our own ways, but canon is that place we all start spinning from. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 17:00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To be fair, no one specifically said his stuff was canon, and once it was realized that a mistake was made, it was point-blank stated that Krash's stuff wasn't canon.
As for me, I personally use a classification of "semicanon" for stuff like that... It's the classification I use for stuff that is really good lore from previously published Realms designers, but was not published by WotC. It's not WotC canon, but it's canon enough for me. (I don't use "fanon" for such material, because it's from past designers, not regular fans)
That is why I only mentioned it as a side note. In this case it was mentioned right away but many times there is a blur between canon and as you call it semicanon. For me line is on printed text and 1385DR. It is not a problem for me but someone new might get easily confused and as you also already said printed text is a common ground for us all and those halls are treasure trove for all lore seekers. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2020 : 13:08:12
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I think i'll repurpose this thread as my reimagining of Netheril.
Working from the First Age again, trying not to invalidate anything.
So a few things that i found in canon that simply cannot work as is.
Number one is -3839 DR, Eaerlann initiates trade with Netheril. Now in -3839 DR, Netheril was little more than 7 fishing villages on the far side of the Narrow Sea. It had not had any meaningful contact with the Rengarth yet, let alone elves a thousand miles away in the depths of one of the biggest surviving forests in Faerun.
Remember at this time Netheril was not a nation of amazing archmages, in fact it is likely they had not developed magic beyond a few primitive spells and some shamanistic hedgelore. While the Weave might have existed at this time, the assumption is that you need to know how to use it in order to become accomplished with this type of magic (they dont learn about this until after meeting the elves of Eaerlann, presumably).
So rather than accept a clearly incorrect statement at face value, how can this be made at least partially true, without rewriting the laws of time, space, and geography.
My initial thought is that the elves travelled all the way from Eaerlann to Netheril, and that Netheril had no idea where or what Eaerlann was. Perhaps the Eaerlanni did not intend to travel to Netheril, or perhaps did not intend to travel to Netheril exclusively (perhaps they were on their way to elsewhere - like Cormanthor, Rystall Wood, Uvaeren).
Is there a portal network connecting Eaerlann and Cormanthyr. The gnomes used a portal network to escape Netheril and i think the implication is that portals were created for them, but perhaps some of the portals already existed. In the aftermath of the Crown Wars there seems to me that there would have been a rise of good feeling among the surviving elven nations (fostered by the emergent Elven Court) and this might have resulted in portals between realms so that they could keep in contact and prevent isolationism rearing its ugly head once again.
Just a thought. Trade relations between Eaerlann and Netheril are not impossible (just unlikely), and perhaps it was a one off visit with the promise of more in the future. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2020 : 13:20:50
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Also read this quote and suddenly gleaned new insight
quote:
–3770 DR The dwarf realm of Oghrann [–5125] falls. Beset on all sides by enemies—lizardfolk, nomadic human tribes, wemics, and the usual bugbears, trolls, and goblinkin races—the realm was swept away by disease and war even before the dwarves’ more northerly kingdoms fell.
Now the quote specifically mentioned the realm of Oghrann was beset by nomadic human tribes.
Given that Oghrann was situated beneath the Plains of Tun, the Farsea Marsh, the Marsh of Tun, etc, the nearest group of warlike and nomadic human tribes that i know of would be the Rengarth. I'm not saying that the Rengarth attacked and destroyed Oghrann but i can easily imagine the Rengarth attacking what they might see as "earth spirits" especially if those earth spirits try and curtail their movements within what the Rengarth see as their land.
So a misunderstanding over territory, and a few hostile encounters with small creatures that live underground and we have a war or two between a number of Rengarth tribes and Oghrann (weakening them, also Ched Nasad was founded earlier so it is possible that the drow were involved in manipulating this conflict (and the illithids of LLacerellyn beneath the serpent hills).
Just a thought and some detail to add to the Rengarth.
While i look at the Rengarth with a new eye, i can see that some great migration occurred around -5000 DR. Shemen led his tribe out of the Shou lands across the northern mountains. Shemen and his tribe left the migration at the Lakelands, becoming the Raumvirans. The people of Rengar carried on (led by Rengar himself) and departed this migration on the western edge of the Narrow Sea (i guess the Ice Spire and Nether Mountains seemed too much trouble to cross). Other groups continued onwards and ended up founding Illusk on the Sword Coast.
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 18 May 2020 16:54:42 |
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Reimagining Netheril
