Author |
Topic |
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11686 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 12:32:12
|
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well those restrictions would certainly stop all but the most determined from performing a ritual to cast the avatar spell. Although from the sound of it velsharoon persisted and succeeded eventually (with a bit of help from talos)
Bear in mind, Velsharoon and Malyk (an ascended drow wild mage who was killed/absorbed by Talos after ascension with the portfolios of wild and destructive magic) both ascended not by taking over another active deity or its portfolio(s) in canon. Granted my own theories for Velsharoon involve him using the "Phylactery of Mellifleur" which he acquired after the ToT (and my belief that Mellifleur fell during the ToT and Ao didn't resurrect him nor redistribute his portfolio). Its my belief that his use of this extra "insurance" is why Talos wasn't able to pretty much immediately absorb him (unlike Malyk).
Its also my homebrew belief that Velsharoon was a triple classed wizard (no specialty), dread necromancer, binder (with levels in ultimate magi and anima mage) and that prior to his ascension he spent much time binding with the vestige of Karsus for no other reason than discussion (not only of the Karsus' Avatar spell, but also the discussion of what Karsus had researched of Mellifleur since its my homebrew belief that Mellifleur beat Karsus to the punch purely on accident... and possibly encouraged Karsus as a result). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 15:06:16
|
As to your list of enclaves, I believe it's spelled Negarath rather than Negrath and Quesseer was located near the Sword Mountains (it's mythallar is most likely gone - taken when the enclave was abandoned). |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 03 Feb 2014 15:07:19 |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 17:19:40
|
It's in Depths of Madness by Erik Scott de Bie so I guess he'd be the one to ask. I know he calls it the 'upside down city' but I don't own the book.
The Sage put all the lore Erik gave him on the place in his FAQ but gods know if we'll ever see the thing |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 04 Feb 2014 18:50:31 |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
267 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 20:16:18
|
I believe there's also an Enclave crashed in the dephts of Korinn Archipelago, but I don't remember from which source it come from... |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 20:41:48
|
Lost Empires did say that there may be an enclave there but it's not named, neither is it confirmed. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 04 Feb 2014 20:45:11 |
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2014 : 08:39:36
|
I just looked at your updated enclaves list dazzler. Quesseer was not the same place as Old Owl Well, they were just located in close proximity.
Also, I forgot to mention the enclave of Kolthunral, which is detailed on p218 of the Neverwinter Campaign Setting (it currently (1480 DR) flies about in the Shadowfell).
There's also Hlaungadath from the novel Condemnation but I can't recall whether it was an actual enclave or not. It's ruins were located in Northwest Anauroch about 40 or 50 miles from either the Nether Mountains or the Graypeaks.
And finally there's Undrentide from the Neverwinter Nights games. Its canonicity is of course debatable but it was included on the map of enclaves on p32 of the Grand History. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 05 Feb 2014 09:15:57 |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2014 : 10:31:09
|
Ah, I wasn't looking at Lost Empires in regard to Old Owl Well. That does indeed make certain that it and Quesseer are one and the same. However, looking over all the sources Quesseer seems to be invariably described as less an enclave and more an outpost.
As for the Bedine, they came from Zakhara. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2016 : 18:25:09
|
Also, about Mystra, Mystryl, and her starting out as an arcanist. Ed said that in his Realms, Lurue is the goddess of magic, and most powerfull entity, combining more or less the roles of Mystra and Ao.
Ed said TSR asked him to create a more "human" goddess, as Lurue was to bizarre being non-humanoid.
Curiously, Ed said Lurue was the goddess of MAGIC not the Weave. That's why some scribes here suggested Lurue might have been the goddess of Magic before the creation of the Weave. |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2016 : 19:56:25
|
You forgot to cast thread necromancy.
Well given that Netheril is way back in the past we have a different pantheonic structure then than exists in modern it is more than likely that mystryl was the netherese deity of the magic/weave while lurue was probably just a beast cult of magic for either the ulou or the talfir and possibly a mixture of both. Not that it matters. Only as the pantheons merged did a single deity of magic come into being but the weave was probably always there and I'm going with the line that it gained sentience only around the dawn of the mythallar age.
Not only that but there is no reason why you cannot have a separate deity of magic to the deity of the weave. They are two different but linked concepts and just as there is a deity of knowledge and a deity of learning.
However all of this is moot to me. I have moved away from dealing with deities at all. All those rules that apply to deities and all that mythology associated with them can instead be applied to the religions and turned into a story later for the masses.
So you can only have a demigod deity with the same portfolio as another god in the same pantheon not because of some overgod rule but because the stronger religion inside the area it controls is not going to allow a rival religion to appear inside its sphere of influence and steal its worshippers. While the smaller upstart religion is too small to be noticed (a single temple and a few shrines) then it survives. Once it gets too big then the larger religion destroys or absorbs it.
Lurue, Mystra, Corellon, Ishtar, etc. All exist in the same planet not because of pantheonic boundaries but because their religions are separated by race or geography. Humans and other humanoid races are unlikely to worship one another's deities because of the racial/cultural boundary so they leave each other alone for now (as elves and humans cooperate more then it is likely they will understand one another more and conflict becomes more likely as converts increase on both sides). Ishtar and Isis and Mystra are separated by geography and cultural differences not by pantheonic divides. Finally Lurue's religion survives because it is localised in the high forest (and because Lurue is an actual physical being) and possibly because one religion has sworn allegiance to the other or has a historic pact of non-interference.
There are other aspects of the deific soap opera I could rationalise into religious intrigue but basically I no longer refer to deities anymore because they are so far removed from the material plane that there is little point in involving them.
Just my take though. |
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1 Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2 Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3 Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4 Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5 Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6 Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7 Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8 Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2016 : 13:52:55
|
Yeah, I taken aparently a level in thread necromancer XD
Interesting ideas, but about Lurue seeing how elves had a specific name for her(Yathaghera), her being an Archfey, and statements elves worshipped the "Faerie Gods" Before Seldarine, Lurue might have been a goddessarchfey of magic worshipped by green elves first then by humans. Or by both humans and green elves, or by LeShay. She even had her temple on Evermeet. |
Edited by - Baltas on 18 Mar 2016 13:56:41 |
|
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2016 : 16:48:20
|
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
You forgot to cast thread necromancy.
Well given that Netheril is way back in the past we have a different pantheonic structure then than exists in modern it is more than likely that mystryl was the netherese deity of the magic/weave while lurue was probably just a beast cult of magic for either the ulou or the talfir and possibly a mixture of both. Not that it matters. Only as the pantheons merged did a single deity of magic come into being but the weave was probably always there and I'm going with the line that it gained sentience only around the dawn of the mythallar age.
Not only that but there is no reason why you cannot have a separate deity of magic to the deity of the weave. They are two different but linked concepts and just as there is a deity of knowledge and a deity of learning.
However all of this is moot to me. I have moved away from dealing with deities at all. All those rules that apply to deities and all that mythology associated with them can instead be applied to the religions and turned into a story later for the masses.
So you can only have a demigod deity with the same portfolio as another god in the same pantheon not because of some overgod rule but because the stronger religion inside the area it controls is not going to allow a rival religion to appear inside its sphere of influence and steal its worshippers. While the smaller upstart religion is too small to be noticed (a single temple and a few shrines) then it survives. Once it gets too big then the larger religion destroys or absorbs it.
Lurue, Mystra, Corellon, Ishtar, etc. All exist in the same planet not because of pantheonic boundaries but because their religions are separated by race or geography. Humans and other humanoid races are unlikely to worship one another's deities because of the racial/cultural boundary so they leave each other alone for now (as elves and humans cooperate more then it is likely they will understand one another more and conflict becomes more likely as converts increase on both sides). Ishtar and Isis and Mystra are separated by geography and cultural differences not by pantheonic divides. Finally Lurue's religion survives because it is localised in the high forest (and because Lurue is an actual physical being) and possibly because one religion has sworn allegiance to the other or has a historic pact of non-interference.
There are other aspects of the deific soap opera I could rationalise into religious intrigue but basically I no longer refer to deities anymore because they are so far removed from the material plane that there is little point in involving them.
Just my take though.
For me this next level of intrigue (diefic soap opera) is fascinating and also represents to me the only force that think globaly instead of localy. Also if you do not wish to remove gods as active minds completely you are just ridding yourself of their avatars that for me is solved by saying that most of the time they have better things to spend their power on. I am also against direct intervention of gods in common problems of people - like it is so often used in adventures "god xy has pointed you in that direction with his mighty finger..." and moved them into the realms of dreams and visions by priests (so the priest will hire you based on his vision and tell you where he thinks you should go). |
|
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2016 : 17:02:26
|
And to add some thoughts for you - I have concluded that phaerim are actualy very old weapon of Batrachi against elves on west coast. Their name was told to Netheries by their elven allies and is originaly elven Fae'rim - bane of fey. They have been hybernating in their underground complex since their defeat by Sarrukh. When Netheries explorers broke into the caverns and awaken them they were enslaved by phaerim and they told them everything about Netheril. As their purpose was to destroy physicaly weak magicaly active beings this was their new goal as they haven't received any from their old masters. |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2016 : 20:15:20
|
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I can't deny that at one point the gods and their intrigues were of interest to me as well. Then things started to get a bit silly with Cyric and his destruction of Zhentil keep, then the whole shar nonsense of 3e, then finally the infantile godly manoeuvrings that kicked off 4e. The more godly stuff they put into the realms the more I found I disliked the realms.
The priests of the realms became little more than puppets and pale imitations of their gods with no minds or control over their own lives. All Cyric priests were chaotic zealots and as mindlessly destructive as their god. The priests of mask were no longer allowed the fight against one another because mask lost that portfolio. The mindless loonies of lolth that behaved like infantile emotionally stunted homicidal maniacs just to please their like minded goddess.
Then it got even worse with mielikki demanding all orcs be slaughtered because they are all evil. Chosen running around like an ants nest full of them had just landed on faerun.
I decided I could rerationalise faerun to be exactly the same but without any gods. It works better for me as a dm and for my own logic. If it doesn't work for you then stick with what is out there, I'm working on an alternate version where things are the same and yet different at the same time.
I have been watching your perspective here at Candlekeep for some time and I think we have very similar reasoning. That is why I am trying to explain my thoughts here as I believe it is sad that you removed big part of the realms due to new development. I too have stopped my Realms before Spellplague and I am creating my version from that time. ToT was not very nice to Realms and their gods especialy but I have found a reason for it in deep history with a little touch it make sense. |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2016 : 11:21:18
|
quote: Originally posted by Wrigley
And to add some thoughts for you - I have concluded that phaerim are actualy very old weapon of Batrachi against elves on west coast.
Didn't the Sarrukh fight against the Phaerimm somewhere at the Northern side of what became Anauroch by adding water (which gave them ideas), which they overdid, swamping the whole place enough that they were unable to stay there themselves?
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Then things started to get a bit silly with Cyric and his destruction of Zhentil keep, then the whole shar nonsense of 3e, then finally the infantile godly manoeuvrings that kicked off 4e. The more godly stuff they put into the realms the more I found I disliked the realms. The priests of the realms became little more than puppets and pale imitations of their gods with no minds or control over their own lives. All Cyric priests were chaotic zealots and as mindlessly destructive as their god. The priests of mask were no longer allowed the fight against one another because mask lost that portfolio. The mindless loonies of lolth that behaved like infantile emotionally stunted homicidal maniacs just to please their like minded goddess. Then it got even worse with mielikki demanding all orcs be slaughtered because they are all evil. Chosen running around like an ants nest full of them had just landed on faerun.
In other words, in 3e times the quality of writing rolled downhill and then into the swamp. The most obvious symptom of which being "everyone acting like idiots".
|
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2016 : 18:19:44
|
quote: Originally posted by TBeholder
quote: Originally posted by Wrigley
And to add some thoughts for you - I have concluded that phaerim are actualy very old weapon of Batrachi against elves on west coast.
Didn't the Sarrukh fight against the Phaerimm somewhere at the Northern side of what became Anauroch by adding water (which gave them ideas), which they overdid, swamping the whole place enough that they were unable to stay there themselves?
Yes they were fighting with Sarrukh. It is said that Sarrukh have routed the narrow sea onto phaerim and that resulting change of climate did end their rule. Also there is said that remaining Sarrukh lords hid themselves under protective barrier similar to sharnwall that phaerim cannot penetrate. As phaerim in this theory are batrachi origin (water) they could not be drowned by narrow sea but I believe they had a base underwater which was opened to attacks this way and phaerims had to retreat underground. They were quite happy with later result and went hybernating as their task was done. |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2016 : 06:36:06
|
quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I went a different tac with the phaerimm. I left them as an end stage in magical evolution that were "constructed" by the imaskari and the sarrukh (and batrachi if you like) in the same way that humans are constructed from apes.
I did this for several reasons. First because I have great respect for the work of Eric Boyd and George krashos and many other greats that first proposed that origin for the Sharon and phaerimm (and them being two sides of the same coin).
Could you explain the relation of phaerim and sharn? I haven't found any origin for phaerim so I made one up but sharn are mierytar mages fused together by their own ritual, formerly dark elves. |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2016 : 19:42:20
|
Do you have a resource for creation of phaerim by imaskari and sarrukh? About this evolution theory - you sound like a Bene Geserit witch but that is from another world... For me phaerim were created as a living weapon against mages not a race content to enter voluntary isolation. Hybernation might be just their reaction to a bad situation. It might also be a control mechanism by their creators. I imagine their original form to be some big leech that has been given sentience and magical abilities. |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
|
Topic |
|