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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 11:37:45

Ok, i'm going over the Netheril book for bits of lore.

Straight away one interesting passage jumps out at me regarding halflings.

quote:
Elves believed the halflings were smart to avoid Netheril, but at the same time, linked the two races together. They believed
the overabundance of magic tainted life in Netheril. Deviations
in the human race, the elves believed, created the halfling. Since
the halflings were viewed as lower-class citizenry, they were
segregated into the lower districts with half-elves. Halflings
deny these allegations, and in retrospect, this probably explains
why halflings never had much appreciation for the elven
nations.

So do we have any other statement regarding the origins of halflings. They seem more abundant in the south of Faerun in history (Calimshan and Tethyr area). Is it possible that the Elves simply linked the two groups (Netherese and halflings) together because they had never encountered halflings before.

Or is it likely that this belief bears a grain of truth. Netherese experimentation was widespread and often produced unintended results. Is it possible that some time after acquiring the Nether Scrolls someone accidentally created the halfling race, or maybe a halfling subrace. After all we have two common subraces, one common in the north of Faerun and one common in the south.

I see in GHoTR that it state the genie Calim brought human and halfling slaves with him to Faerun.

Maybe Calim brought lightfoot halflings and the Netherese created strongheart halflings by accident (or the otherway round if the strongheart are the more common ones in the north)

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 18 May 2020 12:56:56

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 14:15:30

The blurb on Bandor Village mentions that the entire settlement was supposedly wiped out by a disease acquired from winged humanoids in the Barren Mountains (Nether Mountains).

Now i have spotted two links between this and the modern day Nether mountains.

First is the Morueme dragons from Morueme Cave in the Nether Mountains. The winged humanoids could be their half dragon bugbear servitors. Although why would they have a disease and then inflict it upon Bandor Village.

The second is Peryton (whose shadows are humanoid) from Telkoun's Tower. Telkoun's Tower was originally the Netherese tower of High Thorog and Peryton appear to have been trapped there (along with other monsters) in stasis spheres. Maybe the owner was a netherese arcanist with a grudge against Netheril.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 14:30:15

Basin Lake was once a lush valley filled with life until an earthquake altered the course of the Hale river and filled it with water.

This lake was then destroyed in -369 DR by the Phaerimm life drain spells (which i take to mean the encroachment of the desert which dried up the lake and the river feeding it).

Now given the location and the description i wouldnt be surprised if this valley turned lake turned valley was actually the location of modernday Tarkhaldale.

Tarkhaldale is described as a small mountain vale that was once allied with Anauria and Asram.

Anauria and Asram were created in -338 DR so it is conceivable that people settled in this sheltered valley after the lake dried up.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11689 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 15:03:26

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Ok, i'm going over the Netheril book for bits of lore.

Straight away one interesting passage jumps out at me regarding halflings.

quote:
Elves believed the halflings were smart to avoid Netheril, but at the same time, linked the two races together. They believed
the overabundance of magic tainted life in Netheril. Deviations
in the human race, the elves believed, created the halfling. Since
the halflings were viewed as lower-class citizenry, they were
segregated into the lower districts with half-elves. Halflings
deny these allegations, and in retrospect, this probably explains
why halflings never had much appreciation for the elven
nations.

So do we have any other statement regarding the origins of halflings. They seem more abundant in the south of Faerun in history (Calimshan and Tethyr area). Is it possible that the Elves simply linked the two groups (Netherese and halflings) together because they had never encountered halflings before.

Or is it likely that this belief bears a grain of truth. Netherese experimentation was widespread and often produced unintended results. Is it possible that some time after acquiring the Nether Scrolls someone accidentally created the halfling race, or maybe a halfling subrace. After all we have two common subraces, one common in the north of Faerun and one common in the south.

I see in GHoTR that it state the genie Calim brought human and halfling slaves with him to Faerun.

Maybe Calim brought lightfoot halflings and the Netherese created strongheart halflings by accident (or the otherway round if the strongheart are the more common ones in the north)

I see this more along the lines of confusion by some elves. Probably they ran across a line of humans who were midgets and who had integrated with a Halfling community or somesuch.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 15:20:31

The 'flying humanoids' in the Nether Mountains were probably Aarakocra, who once had a larger presence in the High Forest, which once covered most of The North (ncluding the Nether Mountains). Small pockets most-likely still remained during the time of Netheril.

The fact that there are so few of them left now (in Khle'Cayre in The Starmounts) could be another link to a disease (which they inadvertently spread, perhaps even looking for help from the Netherese).

If you still wanted to connect all that, the Morueme dragons may have bred the flying bugbears to counter the Aarakocra, long ago when they were still prevalent in the area.

As for Perytons and everything else, I personally feel the 'Cloud Kingdom' that once existed over the Stonelands was really 'High Thaeravel', and after the land of Alabaster Towers was destroyed, the remnants reluctantly joined with Netheril (like a protectorate). However, there was never any love-loss between the Cloud giants (and others - including Avariel!) and the Netherese, so the Netherese probably dabbled in many types of flying creatures, including mounts, for military reasons.

And eventually, Netheril fell, but the Cloud Kingdom lasted a bit longer, since it wasn't weave-base magic, but Eldritch, rune-magic. The last of them would have been destroyed in wars with the survivor states (in order to make the timeline of the Stonelands more cohesive).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2014 15:25:47

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 15:31:40

I'm with you on the cloudlands kingdom being remainders of whatever else lived in Netheril at the time. They probably cobbled together a flying citadel or two from the remains of fallen enclaves (cloud giants can make them fly without mythallars - using rune magic i guess) and banded together for protection. I reckon humans were excluded from help though since they persecuted humanoids and giants for millennia.

I dont think any alliance at all existed between the humans and non humans in netherese lands after the fall. Who would risk himself by helping a group of genocidal maniacs that had killed thousands of generations of your people. Even super good people would have trouble being that generous. I think the best the Netherese would get is "i'll kill you later when this is over".

When a nation falls it is typically every man for himself. You would get bands of people travelling together for protection. If they met another band then they might or might not kill them but they probably wouldnt travel with them or allow them to follow them because it would use up resources.

People are after all selfish by nature and looking out for their own survival (while being chased by the Phaerimm).

I figure the remnants of the people of Netheril just spread out in all directions, some of them crossing paths, all looking for water and a safe place from the Phaerimm (who remember probably had armies of thralls chasing these remnants across the land).

When the various survivor states settled down and the cloudlands wandered over the top then you are probably looking at a cold war situation. If you shoot at me i will shoot at you kind of thing. Both fully aware that any war will result in their own deaths anyway when the Phaerimm catch up.

And i'm pretty sure the cloudlands were killed by dragons (i like the idea of the dragons being Thauglorimosa's vassals; the purple dragon's cohorts) because he had a kingdom in Cormyr at the time.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 15:42:10

One thing i am trying to figure out is where the lifedrain spells began.

I am thinking that it was the Column of the Sky mountains.

It was fiercely guarded by the Rengarth barbarians so it would be difficult for the Netherese to explore there and there were rumours of ghostly apparitions and divine retribution for those disturbing the resting place of the gods.

The Rengarth believed their gods lived there, what if by some kind of wierd perversion of history the Rengarth were misinterpreting written documents of the Sarrukh battle with the Phaerimm (it would have to be a picture book of course).

They saw the pictures of tremendously powerful beings that were beneath huge mountains and thought they were gods and worshipped them.

This actually led to the phaerimm being protected from the Netherese who would not be able to safely explore the mountains (they certainly explored other mountain ranges like when they established Tzindylspar)

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 16:10:47

And Buoyance, of the Buoyance enclave may have survived the fall of Netheril when his enclave fell into the Netheril River.

During the fall the towers of Buoyance snapped and about 150 people survived the destruction of the enclave.

Buoyance was a lich at the time and many believe he survived by jumping into the waters of the Netheril River.

So i had a look and that river empties into a lake near the Border Forest.

It is possible he could have travelled along that river finishing in the lake and then travelling into the Dalelands or the Stonelands or even the Desertsmouth, Stormhorn, or Thunderpeak mountains.

I initially entertained the idea that Buoyance was Alokkair, but then i discovered that Alokkair became a lich in 500+ DR and so couldnt be Buoyance who was already a lich by then.

Do we have any details of powerful evil liches in the Cormyr, Dalelands, Stonelands area that havent been given a name or history yet?

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 16:51:04

It would be interesting if Allokair was an apprentice of Buoyance at one time.

The name itself (Bouyance) is gawd-awful, BTW. That should be a modern (common) translation of something similar in Netherese (as has been done before with other Netherese lore - the more of the Netheril box we can fix, the better).

Maybe he traveled to Earth, became a singer, toured with Destiny's Child for awhile, and now is out on his own? Amazing what someone can do with illusions.

As for your question - I can't think of one off-hand, but I know there was another Lich around there other then Alokkair. I thought he was the same as Alokkair and then only realized recently they were two different liches. I talked about it in another thread - will have to search for that.

EDIT: Found it - it was Aesperus, the King in Copper.

I thought there was another, around Shadowdale, but he could have been one of the two above. You know, I wa s only joking above (obviously), but a lich is really 'sexless', technically. So even if we found a male (or female) lich, would it matter in terms of bouyance? Do we know for sure if Bouyance was a male? Regardless, it would be fairly simple to flub that (lots of reasons why 'he' may have wanted to hide his true form).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2014 16:59:56

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 16:53:54

Yes Buoyance is a terrible name, so are most of the names in the Netheril box.

I'm pretty sure i spotted the Slade Mountain on the map somewhere.

Bad, bad man whoever put that in there.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 17:01:18

I edited the above post, BTW.

Where does it say when Allokair became a lich? Can we 'get creative' with the date?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 17:38:03

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The name itself (Bouyance) is gawd-awful, BTW. That should be a modern (common) translation of something similar in Netherese (as has been done before with other Netherese lore

It is. Buoyance was Phylornel (Lost Empires p108, under "Shattered Cities" - unless I'm misunderstanding, which is totally possible given the amount of sleep I didn't get last night.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

One thing i am trying to figure out is where the lifedrain spells began.

How about the Rampant Peaks or Sunrest Mountain? It's near the population center of Netheril, and on the "At the Fall" map it's near the reddest area of the map. It could be that due to prevaling wind patterns drying the air here would result in the desert spreading quickly north and west through the nonmagical Rengarth lands, and more gradually eastward into the irrigated and magic-heavy areas.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

This lake was then destroyed in -369 DR by the Phaerimm life drain spells (which i take to mean the encroachment of the desert which dried up the lake and the river feeding it).

I read this differently... from the description of the draindoom spell (Ruins of Myth Drannor box, I think) I inferred that several lifedrain spells had "landed" on/in Basin Lake and perhaps on the Hale river, removing water and killing the fish and basically drying up the lake's source so that that the continuing desertification then quickly evaporated the remaining water. Just my interpretation.

Incidentally the lake was still there, and known as Lake Miir, in the time of the three survivor states, so it couldn't have been destroyed in -370. It was still there in 112 DR, on the FR13 inset map.

Once destruction came, however, I doubt anyone settled in the valley. The lifedrains would have quickly made it inhospitable, and it would have quickly become the Bowl of Loneliness -- if I remember right I think it might have been mentioned in the first Harpers novel.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Now given the location and the description i wouldnt be surprised if this valley turned lake turned valley was actually the location of modernday Tarkhaldale.

I got a different feel from this too. In the OGB, Tarkhaldale was a "mining and farming" community "flanked by steeply rising mountains." This suggests to me a Macchu Picchu-like place, maybe a couple thousand feet up in the mountains, roughly where the "Lost Vale" label is on the FR13 map.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Do we have any details of powerful evil liches in the Cormyr, Dalelands, Stonelands area that havent been given a name or history yet?

I don't have an answer to that, but a tangent-question... do we know what city belonged to Aumvor?

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 19:33:21

Excellent spot with Phylornel, I have read that book 20 times and never spotted that list before. Phylornel is a much better name.

And you are quite right the bowl of loneliness is the Basin Lake, but the description of Basin Lake definitely says it was destroyed by the Phaerimm lifedrain spells on the date given.

How that works exactly I don't know but I don't see how a lifedrain spell can dry up a river. I can see how it makes a desert. If you take the bacteria and plants out of the soil then that quickly dries and turns to sand which spreads and causes a desert with surprising speed (just look at the spread of the gobi desert and sahara without a belt of trees to stop it).

I will just have to put it down to my pants map reading skills.

Now as for Aumvor, it implies that he lived in a black basalt castle in the lonely moor during the time of Netheril. It never states he is an arcanist or has an enclave and that doesn't really fit his personality. I think he was one of the prominent arcanists of Low Netheril (although I reckon they were lesser in prestige and power than those of High Netheril.

I had another wonder though from the "How the Mighty Are Fallen" adventure book. It always captured my imagination fighting the hordes of intelligent undead and a castle made of bodies and then right at the end that doofus Karsus showed up and saved the day with his spell that dooms Netheril. It never ever detailed who the evil wizard was that controlled the zombies but as soon as I read about Aumvor and his living zombies I thought the two had to be one and the same. What do you reckon?

Oh and there is no wiggle room on Alokkair or Buoyance. One is stated as being a lich in -559 DR (Buoyance). While Alokkair has daughters that he kills in +569 DR (they would have to be some ancient daughters if he were Buoyance) and he becomes a lich several years after +569 DR. So the dates are over 1000 years apart. Even bankers and accountants couldn't be creative enough to fix those dates.

I picked the Column of the Sky mountains because of the history and it remaining unexplored but also because it was bright orange (which seems to indicate desert) even on the early Netheril map so it looked like a good indicator of the start of the desert.

Anywhere in the western portion of the desert is a good spot for the start (and therefore hiding place of the Phaerimm) but it cant be too far south because all those grass plains means the desert would spread like wildfire and cover Anauria and Asram before they are even created. The lakes and mountains in the east do mean it would be much slower to head that way so the further north it is the better.

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 21:00:24

Good points. The date of the lake's destruction is a discrepancy in the lore, and I guess it's up to us individually to work it out. The description of Basin lake clearly states that it was destroyed, but the map clearly shows that it was still there 500 years later. As you point out, it makes more sense for the lifedrains to have taken hold in more north/west areas first, and the survival of Anauria/Asram/Hlondath kinda dictates that this lake has to have survived, so for me at least the map trumps the text description.

The lifedrain spell worked by destroying all water from the area of effect, not specifically targeting lifeforms but affecting them indirectly... I read it like the old-school "transmute water to dust" spell. Water coming into the area after the spell is cast is also automatically destroyed. It created "holes" of empty air in lakes. So if a lifedrain plopped down on the Hale River, the river would go dry at that point and there would be no/less water supplying the lake.

The spell is permanent, at least until the death of the phaerimm, and the phaerimm seem to be essentially immortal barring destruction by rivals. Individuals do get destroyed, but FR13 hints that at least some of the lifedrains are still in full effect circa 1360 DR.

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 22:32:39

Most of the fundamental lore about Netheril was first presented in Arcane Ages: Empire of Magic.

Other Arcane Ages products (Cormanthor and Myth Drannor) are written more from the viewpoint of elves. They were the overwhelmingly dominant race in these places, already had a history spanning millennia when Netheril was still just seven little villages, and were very, very familiar with halflings - halfling villages were (and still are) scattered throughout the Cormanthor region and a fairly sizeable population of halflings lived in and around Myth Drannor.

I agree that the flying humanoids were likely aaracokra, although it is possible that a few might have been avariel.

[/Ayrik]

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 02:30:02

The Lost Vale and Tarkhaldale are indeed the same place. This is mentioned in one of the Sources - the one on the Dalelands, IIRC.

You can also see it HERE, on this map section from the FRIA.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6643 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 03:37:54

We re-named most of the Netherese cities in "Lost Empires of Faerun".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 08:55:10

I am forever grateful to you for renaming those cities. Coming up with names is not my strong point but the existing names were pants.

As for the life drain spells. What you are describing xaer sounds more like a dessication spell (i.e. removal of water).

In the Netheril book it describes two spells; magic drain and life drain.

It actually states that the magic drain spells slowly created the desert Anauroch.

As always i think the Netheril book was flawed and here is the simple fix.

There is only one spell life drain, it functions by draining life/magic from the area. Now this is all based on the assumption that the underlying law of the DnD universe is magic (as opposed to physics in our own universe).

So in Toril, without magic there can be no life, and therefore life and magic are much the same thing. So the life drain spell has a blanket drain effect that steals some life/magic energy from every single entity in the area of effect (right down to tiny bacteria). Anything that fails it's save looses a few days/weeks of life/magic energy.

Now to humans that is not all that drastic. Who misses a few weeks here and there. But to a bacteria, a phytoplankton, a rhysomonas fungi, that magic/life energy loss is catastrophic and kills it outright.

Without the phytoplankton the filter feeding fish die, without the rhysomonas fungi the plant die, etc. You get the idea, the death of the bottom rung of the food chain ripples up right to the top and results in the death of everything that remains in the area. So all life leaves and what is left is a patch of dead soil that rapidly decays into desert.

This fixes our Basin Lake issue, because the wording of the blurb is ambiguous. It states Basin Lake is a popular fishing spot and this is destroyed when the Phaerimm cast their life drain spells on it. It doesnt explicitly state that the lake is destroyed. The fishing activity was the last item mentioned. So the life drain kills the fish and the lake remains (aka fishing spot is destroyed). The people move on because there is nothing to eat, but gradually life comes back into the lake from the Desertsmouth Mountains.

Now we also know that the life drain spells interfered with mythallars and the life extending magics of the arcanists. If the life drain spell works as i suggested then it will still have this function. And one or two life drain spells might not bother them that much. A single spell might cause the mythallar to fluctuate in power for a second and turn off all quasi magical items, or cause an arcanist to age a week.
However we have statements that the Phaerimm repeatedly cast these spells in chains so cast 50 of the life drain spells together and it switches off the Mythallar and ages the arcanist a few years (which can be catastrophic if you are already 1000+ years old.

What do you think? Does it make sense? The Netheril book uses life drain and magic drain almost interchangeably as if they get confused several times about which spell does what so it makes sense to me to combine the two.

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 09:32:56

Yes, In RoMD, lifedrain had a dessicating effect. And yea, the life draining and magic draining wording is confusing; I was thrown by it too. Blending them together fits with canon... the lifedrain spell as written does drain magic at the same time. The RoMD description of draindoom begins "This deadly variant of the lifedrain spell 'leapfrogs' out of control, recasting itself at random intervals, draining nearby magic to do so (which is why some areas of both Anauroch and Myth Drannor are 'magic-dead,' drinking the magical energy of magical items brought into them."

I prefer to call the lake's destruction date a typo -- I'll just say it happened in 4390 NY instead of 3490 NY. That's later than it needs to be, but still reasonable. (Edit: And it's also consistent with the lifedrains starting in the north/west and gobbling the south/east land much more slowly.) Plus transposing the digits is pretty easy to forgive. But if you're happy with the ambiguity then I think that's fine.

The reason it doesn't work for me is that if the fish were killed by lifedrain, but the water were left intact then (a) that changes the functionality of the lifedrain spell from what's in RoMD and I kinda like it the way it is; just my personal preference, and (b) we have to do some hand-waving. Either (1) that destruction of lifeforms would remain in place due to lifedrain's permanence and we have to figure out how the survivor states fished the lake, or (2) we have to assume that the phaerimm who cast the lifedrains around the lake were quickly found and killed, restoring the lake's usefulness for a few hundred years. Or we can ignore the permanence of lifedrain and say (3) someone cast a reverse of the lifedrain around the lake, or it was countered by Selune when she took the nearby enclave of Selunarra into her realm, or something of that sort. It's possible, but for me the typo route is a simpler fix unless/until there's a compelling story to support one of the other outcomes.

I don't mean to sound critical at all; I really do think it's good to have multiple options for resolving the discrepancy. I'm pretty sleepy and sometimes I get punchy in this condition.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 21 Jan 2014 09:37:23

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 09:59:00

Well the problem with the spell in that book (whatever ROMD is) is that it doesnt fit with the description of what happened in Netheril at the time, and it doesnt really make sense either from a mechanical point of view. Plus how would anyone know what that lifedrain spell does, its not like the Phaerimm are cooperative or non homicidal maniacs, i cant see them sharing spells.

People certainly survived in an area where lifedrain was being cast. If it had a dessicating effect they would be shrivelled dead husks.

Take for instance this quote

quote:
As the phaerimm�s life drain spells stole the vitality from the Narrow Sea

and this was over the course of 300 years.

Now if it was a dessicating spell you would have to cast it a billion times to turn a sea full of water into dust. Whereas if you cast about 1000 lifedrain spells that just kill the plankton and the algae in the water then desertification as a natural process will dry the sea up (especially if the land around it is drying up as well).

Magic might be awesome but even it is hard pressed to stop natural processes once they get going, an iceberg can move at surprising speed, so too can desertification or a sandstorm.

A super flashy all powerful spell just doesnt fit the lore and description of an area of land the size of africa turning to desert over several hundred years. That to me is a more subtle insidious spell.

If someone witnessed a 10 square mile of land suddenly turn to ash and dust in a second then they would know that was magic. If slowly the life and vitality was leached from the soil and it turned to desert over the course of a year then they would think it was a natural process and research ways to stop it. If after 200 years they havent had any success and that desertification followed them wherever they went, then they might begin to feel that someone is attacking them in some way.

Now the lore points to the latter scenario having occured. The Netherese noticed the spread of the desert and moved away while trying to stop its spread before they realised they were under attack. It does not support the former scenario where they spotted patches of desert appear suddenly.

And remember Phaerimm are immortal and uber intelligent. If you wanted to kill an entire nation of people that were powerful magic users you would want them to have already lost by the time the war began, hence the destruction of the land over many hundreds of years.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 10:04:04

I am with you on the date of the Basin Lake thing though, it makes more sense to just alter the date, since there is no way the phaerimm would have destroyed that lake at that time(that is right on the border of Rystall Wood) and we know the desert didnt reach the stonelands until way after 0 DR.

Of course the desertification is a gradual process where a place like england would gradually turn more dusty like areas of spain and then progress to more and more desert like until finally the sandy soil cannot hold the water anymore and it just sinks to the bottom of the water table.

Then the hot air from the desert rises up the mountain peaks and melts the glaciers at the top of the mountains and so no more rivers flow from them any more (of course the glaciers are fine on the other side of the mountain which means the dalelands still get their rivers).

So gradually as the desert approaches that Basin Lake gets smaller and smaller until finally one day the ground swallows it up and leaves the bowl of loneliness.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 10:04:07

Uhm, the descriptions of both Lifedrain and Draindoom given in Ruins of Myth Drannor state that the spells drain all water in their area of effect and prevent it from ever entering the area again for the duration (1 year per spellcaster level or until death of spellcaster for the first, permanent or 1 year after death of the spellcaster for the second).
Also, both spells don't make much sense in the context of Netheril's Fall (the spell effects don't justify in any way how those could be used to stop mythallars and make the enclaves fall) but that's not surprising to me, as the whole strategy of the phaerimms against the Netherese always made me go "duh ...?"
To make matters even worse, both spells permanently drain hit points from the caster (and in past editions there weren't the bloated masses of hps of 3rd Ed and i think 4th) so the phaerimms couldn't keep it up for long, would be greatly weakened if they used those too much and any mass suicide strategy would be useless as both spells end after the caster's death.

So, yeah, make of the spells what you wish, we could probably explain it all by saying that like the same spell cast by two different human casters is slightly different, each phaerimm clan developed it's own kind of xxxx-drain spell with small differences here and there (so the one used on the Narrow Sea drained water, while the one used in Basin Lake drained "life energy" with the effects yu explained and the ones used on the flying enclaves drained magic and so on).

Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 10:38:32

Here are the descriptions from Ruins of Myth Drannor, pages 57 -> 60:

Lifedrain (Eight Level Spell)
Duration: special
Area of Effect: 70'-radius sphere centered on caster

Use of this mighty spell is thought to have created much of the lifelessness at the hearth of the vast desert of Anauroch! This spells affects only water in geographical form (lakes, rivers, oceans), or in meteorological form (rain, snow). It does not affect water contained in living things. A lifedrain spell destroys whater within its area of effect-and prevents water from existing in the area of effect: water cannot fall into, form within, condense within or flow into the spherical area of effect of this spell. (Daring wizards sometimes use this spell lo lay bare the bottom of a lake or pond, to recover a lost item or to reach a sunken chest or trapdoor.) Living creatures find conditions within the area of effect to be very, very dry-uncomfrotably so; for each turn that one spends performing any sort of activity except simple rest, that creature loses 1 hp due to dehydratation. (Tales are told of Phaerimm drying off wet slaves and items by conveying them from a bath through a lifedrain sphere.) Plants cannot grow within a lifedrain filed-and desert-like conditions soon occur. A lifedrain cannot be affected by dispel magic or water magics: only a limited wish or more powerful spell can destroy it. Otherwise, it lasts for 1 year per level of the caster (but if the caster should die, even on another plane or world, it ends earlier, at the moment of the caster's death). Casting a lifedrain permanently drains 1 hit point from the total possessed by the caster. The material components of this spell are a piece of bone and fire of any sort and size. The bone is placed in the flames during the casting, and both are consumed in a flash by the spell. The spell's area of effect is centered on the caster.

Draindoom (Ninth Level Spell)
Duration: permanent or 1 year after caster's death
Area of Effect: special

This deadly variant of the lifedrain spell "leapfrogs" out of control, recasting itself at random intervals, draining nearby magic to do so (which is why some areas of both Anauroch and Myth Drannor are "magic-dead", drinking the magical energy of magical items brought into them). The spells destroys liquid water (not ice) in a succession of 70'-radius spheres. The first sphere is centered on the caster, and the spell will cast itself again 2d12 times, at random locations within 1 mile of the original casting site. No one can control where these later castings will occur, or when: the second always occurs 1d4 days after the first, the third 1d12, the fourth 2d20, and all spontaneous castings are d100 days after the previous one. These spontaneous castings require no caster or material component. They always drain any magical items within their area of effect (saving throw versus "disintegrate" apply, to avoid this draining) when forming. Water cannot fall into, form within, condense within, or flow into the spherical area of spell effect. Living creatures find conditions in the area uncomfortably dry; for each turn spent there doing anything more than resting, a creature loses 1 hp due to dehydratation. Plants can't grow in a draindoom field-and desert-like conditions soon occur. A draindoom can't be affected by dispel magic or water magics: only a limited wish spell cast at the original casting site, or at the most recent spontaneous recasting will halt it (or a properly-worded wish spell). Otherwise, its effects last and continue until the moment of the caster's death. Casting a draindoom permanently drains 1d12+1d4 hit points from the caster. If this drain kills the caster, the draindoom takes effect only at two sites: the place of the casting one "jump". The effect lasts for one year from the moment of the caster's death. The material components of this spell are a piece of bone and a fire of any sort and size. The bone is place inside the flames during casting, and both are consumed in a flash by the spell. The spell's area of effect is centered on the caster.

Edited by - Demzer on 21 Jan 2014 10:40:12

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 10:52:04

Why make them permanent. Instantaneous is the duration i would use for 3rd edition.

They drain the life/magic out of the area.

Yes life can return (slowly), but cast it in an adjacent area and maybe another 10 times and the desert starts to spread without any further help.

Cast it again to further it along and you get Anauroch (after a time).

There was no need to make it permanent, it makes no sense from a spell or mechanics point of view. The minute you walk into an area that has life drain cast on it (which the whole of Anauroch probably did) all the water leeches out your body and you die.

So how would any life survive in Anauroch even after a thousand years(like the Bedine). The spell is permanent so you you suffer the effects as soon as you enter the area.

That spell just doesnt work at all. They were trying to explain the creation of Anauroch in a very literal way, i doubt whoever wrote that knew much about geography or biology.

Make it a high level spell that drains magic/life (and not water). Give it a duration of instantaneous and a radius of 10ft per level and then you have a spell that matches the lore. It does the initial damage, nature does the rest.

Anyways, we could debate this all day, it rarely leads to a resolution. The next bit i'm wondering about is Netheril itself, the country, the government, the nation

Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 10:57:06

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Anyways, we could debate this all day, it rarely leads to a resolution. The next bit i'm wondering about is Netheril itself, the country, the government, the nation

Sorry, i didn't want to argue, i read that you didn't have the spell descriptions and thought providing them would help in some way.

My personal stance is to disregard those spells and make the xxxx-drains do whatever i need them to do and be done with it.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 11:12:08

So halfway through the book and i'm getting some indications of how Netheril works i think.

1 - The barbarian tribes are not a part of the Netherese nation at all. They wander through the territories that make up their ancestral land. They establish settlements within the borders, and they trade with Netheril but in no way do they take orders from them or answer to them or provide taxes etc.
That of course doesnt mean they dont live in Netherese cities. Those barbarians that dont attack the Netherese seem welcome wherever they go (although they are not treated as citizens).

2 - The nation of Netheril itself is not a nation at all. There exists two distinct entities: The ground dwelling cities of Low Netheril, and the flying Enclaves of High Netheril.
This is exhibited right from the start when Ioulaum creates the first enclave and then the orcs attack.

quote:
The seven cities sent their finest warriors westward to confront the orcs, only to be turned back when word of an orc sneak
attack east of Seventon reached their ears. Seventon had never
fought a two-front war before and, without the help of Ioulaum�s enclave

This statement is written as though the nation of Low Netheril (The Alliance of Seventon) fights a war against the orc with aid from it's ally the enclave.
Again look at the city that was approached by an arcanist to become an enclave and refused. If High Netheril ruled the low Netherese cities there would be no approach
So what we call High Netheril is not even a part of Low Netheril. They trade, and help each other out in a pact of mutual assistance but they do not appear to have a common government. This pact of assistance makes sense, without the food of low netheril the enclaves cannot exist, and without the magical might and money of the enclaves low netheril would not survive.

3 - The sub nation of High Netheril also does not exist. The enclaves of Netheril fly around as is their want, sometimes destroying each other (see Buoyance), sometimes working in factions. They appear to respect the opinion of accomplished wizards but they have no set of common laws or governance that binds them together. Each enclave has its own rules and is dictated entirely by the arcanist that created it.

Given these points above i have some theories.

The Netherese are tribal in origin, so the alliance of Seventon that probably persisted throughout the history of Netheril was most likely a democratic council of sorts that would assemble in Seventon with a delegate from each city attending and they would decide matters of military and other policies. The Netheril military that we hear described would be paid for and recruited by the Allaince of Seventon. There would be taxes and a code of laws and other things common to a country. When anything refers to Netheril it is likely that they mean the actions of Low Netheril in which some enclaves also participate.
I reckon that the enclaves could also attend the council but do not have a say in the voting of issues. They can merely voice their opinion and state their actions (which would carry much weight because of their power).

High Netheril that we refer to i think would mimic this democratic council of sorts but with a much more intellectual bent. I'm thinking a forum where the leading arcanists assemble to discuss issues. This is not a form of government, no decision is made that they have to obey, merely suggestions and opinions voiced that the other arcanists can then respond to as they see fit.
The forum could be called by any arcanist and held on any enclave (i would imagine Ioulaums and Karsus' enclaves would be the most common as they are the most respected). Those in attendance might form temporary alliances or factions and several enclaves might act in concert when friends or allies decide to do something. But again these are individual city states that meet to discuss the topics affecting the area in which they live.

Any thoughts?

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 11:13:04

No apology necessary, i was just voicing my opinion on those spells and trying to move the debate along to more important topics rather than get bogged down with definition of life drain spells, it wasnt directed at anyone.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 21 Jan 2014 11:14:19

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 12:26:56

Oh and Markus, it looks like you were right about the giants and Netheril.

The cloudlands may have contained about 5,000 Netherese citizens of Harbourage.

quote:
The continued life drain and magic drain
spells of the phaerimm finally caused a volcanic rift to develop
near the city of Harborage, and a volcano was born in less than
a day. Clouds of poisonous gas were spewed skyward, and the
Narrow Sea boiled and frothed around the port city.
The cloud giants of the Amanir clan proved to be the saviors
of the more than 5,000 remaining residents of Harborage.
Arriving in a cloud castle, the giants allowed the city�s residents
to leave before the volcano claimed the city. Virtually everyone
left, though a few remained to witness their doom as the volcano
consumed the city with a thunderous roar (which just happened
to coincide with the timing of Karsus�s avatar spell).

I think this would be an isolated incident though. One curious thing though is that the cloud giants show up in a cloud castle before the End of the End (i.e. Karsus cast his spell). That particular clan must have been hiding that cloud castle very well for a long time. But its possible that they did it. A landed cloud castle in the mountains would look just like a mountain keep.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 15:03:53

Well, here is how I was going to spin things in the article I had planned for the CKC, in abbreviated format:

1) The Rise of Imaskar
2) Gur tribes of the northern Taan, displaced by Imaskari expansion and that of their Haltai (proto-Tuigan) Horsemen allies, begin to spread westward.
3) Hilathar's unorthodox experiments with something he calls 'umbralturgy' causes him to found an enclave far to the NW, near a large concentration of 'negative energy'.
4) Gur tribes continue to spread across northern Faer�n and come upon the great Anauroch basin. They begin settling the area around the Narrow Sea.
5) Hilathar's enclave has grown in power, attracting like-minded folk from all over. The local Talfiric people allow themselves to be governed by the Sorcerers, and the land of Thaeravel is founded. Hilathar is chosen as its first king.
6) The settled Gur of several towns form the Seventon Alliance.
7) The Land of Alabaster Towers discovers the 'Cloud Kingdom' - a loose confederacy of aerial creatures existing above and around the region of 'Moander's footstep' (modern-day Stonelands). Trade begins between the two cultures.
8) Hilathar steps down from his position, and Thaeravel is ruled by a succession of Sorcerer-kings, chosen by a council of powerful magi.
9) As Seventon and Thaeravel begin to expand toward each other, skirmishes occur along the new border.
10) The Terraseer secretly manipulates the folk of Seventon into discovering the Nether scrolls. Netheril is born.
11) Hilathar returns to Imaskar to seek help against what he sees as a rising new threat, but finds the Empire in disarray. He decides to stay and try to set things right.
12) Lead By Lord Telemont, Netherese archmages perform a lightening raid on the Towers of Thaeravel, imprisoning many of the ruling Magi. The next morning the folk of Thaeravel are issued an ultimatum: join Netheril or die. They begrudgingly acquiesce, but the two peoples continue to hate one another for years, often leading to civil unrest in parts of the empire.
13) Netheril becomes a republic ruled by a council of Archmages. A non-aggression pact is signed with the Cloud Kingdom, but the Cloud giants are well aware of the covetous nature of the Netherse, after seeing first-hand what they did to Thaeravel. Although there is some trade, it is nothing like it was with the land of the Sorcerer Kings.
14) Hilathar founds Baluin and begins a new series of experiments, hoping to stave-off the disaster he has seen coming for his people.
15) The arrival of the god-Kings. Imaskar falls. Hilathar seals himself in a special vault in the Giant's Belt mountains to escape destruction.
16) Hilathar finally emerges from his stasis and returns to Netheril, to the region of his former enclave (modern-day Tunlands). Finding the remnants of his disheartened people, he leads many of them west into the High Moor - another region suffused with negative (Shadow) Energy.
17) The Terraseer once-again manipulates events, and causes the folk of Orogoth to succumb to the 'Serpent Curse'. Hilathar flees to the Sargauth Enclave in Undermountain.
18) The Phaerimm - freed from their long imprisonment by the Imaskari - return to Anauroch and begin to harass the Netherese people.
19) Karsus' Folly - Netheril falls. Telemont - now know as 'Lord Shadow' - saves his city by shifting it into the Shadowfell. All that is left are several survivor states. The Cloud Kingdom tries to help who they can, but the sheer scope of the disaster makes their efforts all but fruitless.
20) The Netheril survivor-states of Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath begin casting blame on the Cloud Kingdom, jealous and suspicious of its 'miraculous' survival when the Weave fell. They are unaware that Rune magic is a more primal form of magic, and taps into the power 'beyond the weave'.
21) Many of the Cloud Kingdoms settlements begin to fall to earth. The survivor-states are blamed, but it is unclear whether they are at fault, the Phaerimm, or some combination of the two. The Stonelands are created from the debris.
22) The desert continues to spread, and envelopes the the last remnants of Netherese civilization (aside from the Halruaans who fled).

I didn't put exact dates in, nor bothered with the many details I had that pertained to the 'why' and 'how' of it all. (like why the Teraseer seem to have it in for Hilathar and the Imaskari). That was just a 'quick & dirty' timeline of how I see events proceeding in that region. I also didn't get into the goblin kingdoms, the two cities in the marshes, or the Shadow king, all of which are connected. There were also many other major things happening in the world during this period, which stretches to cover thousands of years. The empire of Shoon, Jhamdath, Raumathar & Narfell all came and went, and new empires like Unther and Mulhorand were born.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2014 15:08:37

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 15:49:28

I have just read a few indications that maybe later the archmages did take a more active role in governing Netheril. However i think this only occured during the Shadowed Age as Netheril began to fall apart because of the Phaerimm magics.

During this time the enclaves appear to have moved over a number of lowland towns and cities and interacted with them directly rather than just trading. They enforced acts on some cities, rescued others etc.

So it looks like in the later stages you may be correct, Netheril did become a different form of government. As for which type i have no idea. They all still looked to Ioulaum and then Karsus when he vanished to make decisions. But how would a government of superpowerful egomaniacs work without them killing each other.

Given Netheril's genocidal and magicalomaniac tendencies i doubt very much if any empire with magical powers could have existed side by side with the Netherese without risking their own painful death. Unless they rivalled Netheril in power (like Cormanthyr)

They tolerated the barbarians because they were of no consequence. In the case of the Anghardt they probably even viewed them as trainable pets and a disposable magic force against the orcs.

However given what they did to Thaeravel, i dont see coexistence between a giant kingdom and Netheril. The only way the giants could survive is if they hid and pretended to be weak but also provide something useful to trade.

The Amnir clan in the Channel Mountains were 40 giants strong, that number seems quite small so they probably only had the one keep. When they rescued Harbourage, that was probably only because they had such good relations with the city of Harbourage (and more likely if Low and High Netheril were entirely independent). From there the cloud castle drifted across Netheril scavenging bits from the fallen enclaves, creating a few more cloud castles and picking up pegasi, avariel, aarakocra, and all the other races in hiding in the dying lands of Netheril. Creating kind of a gypsy caravan of cloud castles (probably more like keeps) that rescued the magical riff raff that the Netherese had mistreated over the millennia.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 16:06:09

I am noticing a recurring theme that appears in several places throughout the book.

The appearance of spirits, apparitions, ghosts, hauntings, etc. Even a possible attack of clawed extra planar fiends.

There are too many of these for it to be a coincidence. So the question is what are these spirits.

Are they actually spirits of the dead like the Rengarth believe. Could they be spirits of the Sarrukh? Are they magical projections of the Phaerimm - kind of like a wizard eye spell. Are they fey spirits - there are a few fey creatures in the Netheril basin (admittedly more towards the eastern forest - whereas the spirits are in the Angardt and Rengarth lands).

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