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Jeffrey Williams
Acolyte
USA
45 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2002 : 10:30:52
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I really do not want to start a flame, but the worst thing about 3E Forgotten Realms is Sean K Reynold's obvious inclusion of the Shadow Weave in the 3E Campaign Setting.
Can anyone explain the nature of the Shadow Weave and why his explaination is so pointless, vague and often contridicts itself.
Can anyone explain why Shar and her minions have been able to train and breed shadow mages right under everyone's noses (sort of like 9-11 and Al-Quaeda) 
Why is that it appears in the 3E Forgotten Realms campaign setting and not other editions. 
Why Mystra can not sense it (even though she is the Goddess of the Weave)
why is a corrupted form of the Weave more powerful then a purified or coherent form of the same magics?
I hope I recieve some replies....
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Geoffrey Mordraith, Sage, Cleric of Helm, Bearer of the Morning Star
devilboy@anv.net
www.bigbluepigeon.blogspot.com
www.thefourthportal.blogspot.com |
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Ditalidas
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
127 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2002 : 13:21:47
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I have really no idea. But what I do know is that 'the bad' is always stronger than 'the good' for the second is bound by certain rules and the first is not. I can imagine that the shadow weave is far more dangerous to use than the conventional weave.
It strikes me as weird that Mystra cannot sense the shadow weave. It might depend a little about the form in which the weave exists. If it is one big pool and the shadow mages filter out the shadow part and the conventional filter out the conventional part... it might be difficult for Mystra to sense who uses what part. I say difficult, not impossible. But if the two weaves exist apart from each other and Mystra is Goddess of the weave, how can she not know? Or is she only Goddess of the conventional weave (I don't buy that)
But anyhow. These are more my opinions than facts from books... so anyone can agree or disagree.
It is an interesting discussion though... I'll think about it some more 
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'All that is' is also 'All that is not' for the one cannot exist without the other.
Sweet Water and Light Laughter |
Edited by - Ditalidas on 31 Oct 2002 20:01:45 |
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JeffSneed1
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2002 : 08:47:10
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I believe I may have some answers, if my memory serves me correctly.
My reponses are marked with *-*, and are based on the knowledge gathered from reading over 40 books, but I don't make the laws and such so I can't have exact answers, I can only speculate. I suggest reading the Return of the Archmages trilogy.
I really do not want to start a flame, but the worst thing about 3E Forgotten Realms is Sean K Reynold's obvious inclusion of the Shadow Weave in the 3E Campaign Setting.
Can anyone explain the nature of the Shadow Weave and why his explaination is so pointless, vague and often contridicts itself.
Can anyone explain why Shar and her minions have been able to train and breed shadow mages right under everyone's noses (sort of like 9-11 and Al-Quaeda) *All evil churches and characters act, and their actions are very often not stopped or detected*
Why is that it appears in the 3E Forgotten Realms campaign setting and not other editions.
Why Mystra can not sense it (even though she is the Goddess of the Weave) *When Karsus stole the power, and magic was reworked and split into the magic weave and the shadow weave, magic before the split is called "whole" magic, and it is "heavier"*
why is a corrupted form of the Weave more powerful then a purified or coherent form of the same magics? * Not more powerful, but those that would be victims of it don't have the items or experiance to counter it, because it is fairly new.*
I hope I recieve some replies....
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Everything posted in this article has been written because of my love for the Forgotten Realms. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2002 : 12:47:16
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| Some more discussion on this subject is taking place in this topic. |
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Salazar
Acolyte
Netherlands
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2002 : 08:57:27
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Does anyone know where I can find a real good site on Shadow Weave? |
Salazar M. |
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Batroc
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2003 : 17:48:44
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The shadow weave is not stronger or weaker, its different. There are some things it can do and some things it can't. The same applies to the Weave. Also, shadow mages have been popping up a lot in the books about 2-3 years prior to the release of 3E. The Magehound series comes to mind as does the shadowstone.
Shar is sneaky, she is the goddess of darkness and the night. The night holds many secrets. Also remember, Mystra is not the original goddess of Magic. There is a lot she does not know and with each knew office holder, her knowledge and experience decreases. Whereas Shar has been around since Realmspace began. She, Selune, and Chauntea are the original three powers of Realmspace (minus AO of course).
Personally, shadow magic makes since. I will admit that most of my mage characters are in deep poop if they have to fight a shadow mage but the same applies when battling phaerimm (or anything new for that matter)
As to why Mystra can't sense or control the shadow Weave- simple. Mystra is the Weave. Shadow weave and Weave tend to weaken and negate each each other. Consider light and dark. Light expunges dark while dark devours light. The two rarely coexist and most can't perceive darkness in bright light while in pitch darkness light can't be perceived. |
Dragons are your friend |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2003 : 18:37:10
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It might not be so simple... if the writing in the Return of the Archwizards series is to be taken as true canon, one has to conclude that the Shadow Weave is somehow connected to the Weave. In order to create the shadowblankets, the Karsestone was needed. This arifact 'bleeds' whole magic in a liquid form. Also mixing raw Shadow Weave magic and raw Weave magic produces 'special' effects...: dismanteling of the Sharn Wall, opening planar rifts... There are some tie-inns.
ps: Mystryl/Mystra is not that much younger then Selune/Shar, she is 'born' out of Selune in one of that deity's earliest battles with the Lady of Loss. |
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Batroc
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2003 : 16:28:01
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Mystryl was the original goddess of magic. She comprised all magic since all existed together. When she sacrificed herself magic was split into at least two different forms-- the shadow weave and the weave.
Presumably, Shar pulled a secret coup when Mystra (who was a mortal) took the office of goddess of magic. She just wasn't aware probably.
Now a new Mystra (midnight) has taken over and she knows less than her predecessors.
As for the shadow blankets, access to whole magic (the original weave magic) seems to be necessary and the only known source for that is the Karse Stone. Presumably, It is through the Karse Stone that Shar has power over the Shadow Weave.
It might be possible to reintegrate the two weaves if Mystra gains control over the stone. |
Dragons are your friend |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2003 : 13:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Batroc
Mystryl was the original goddess of magic. She comprised all magic since all existed together. When she sacrificed herself magic was split into at least two different forms-- the shadow weave and the weave.
Presumably, Shar pulled a secret coup when Mystra (who was a mortal) took the office of goddess of magic. She just wasn't aware probably.
Small correction, the Shadow Weave came to be at the time Mystryl was created when Selune tore the aspect of magic out of her 'body' and hurled it at her dark sister Shar. When Selune's essence hit Shar, it tore a piece out of the dark goddess - now there were two separate 'items' of light and darkness. The part of light and magic coalesced into the being Mystryl. Apparently no-one but Shar noticed the dark part, and she nurtured it for ages, carfully experimenting with it until she felt comfortable enough to 'carefully' reveal it to the world at large. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 18:33:26
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Mystryl is compromised of both light and dark magic, which is both of Shar and Selune's magical essences thus she was neutrally aligned.
Shadow Weave has existed before the fall of Netheril and it appears unaffected by Mystryl's death. On the other hand, there are hints of the Plane of Shadow being Shadow Weave's source which 'coincidentially' is Shar's domain.
In other words, I find it safer to assume the Shadow Weave is a later creation of Shar's that is designed as a 'gift' for Mystryl's disobedience.
The Weave-split theory in RoTA does not make a lot of sense. If the Shadow Weave is the dark twin of the current Weave, the Weave would've a tendency towards goodness (do not confuse that with Midnight's alignment). But as we all know, the Weave is as good as it is evil. Another thing to point out is that Shar tends to lie to her Shade worshippers. Check out the Lord of Darkness rule book to see how mis-informed the Shades are. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 18:40:55
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The Shadow Weave is not really a Weave, but the spaces or negatives of the Weave. Like other shadows, the Shadow Weave's essence is subtle, especially with Shar, the goddess of secrets, cloaking it.
Or let's look at it this way: You will not notice the negative colours of a photograph. It doesn't mean photons of the negative colour frequencies do not exist, but it's just that they are not reflected by the pigments of the picture.
Hope this helps. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 20:52:37
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Whenever this subject is brought up, it is always a thorny one. The most controversial and poorly explained issue, the creation of Shadow Weave arguably takes up the most time, but I'll start from the top. To start with the first question from Jeffrey:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Williams:
Can anyone explain the nature of the Shadow Weave and why his explanation is so pointless, vague and often contradicts itself?
Well, first I cannot say why the explanation is "pointless", but i can explain the Shadow Weave a little. ywhtptgtfo is correct when he says that the Shadow Weave exists in the gaps in the Weave; it is essentially the absence of the Weave. The gaps themselves are classically described as being the result of abuse to the Weave over time, which is an interesting point when i comes to discussing the Shadow Weave's origin, but I will get to that later. The Shadow Weave functions almost identically to the Weave, except Shar infused it with her corruptive power so that unless the wielder of the Shadow Magic worships her, it slowly corrupts them. Otherwise it performs very similarly to normal magic. Next:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Williams:
Can anyone explain why Shar and her minions have been able to train and breed shadow mages right under everyone's noses?
Well, firstly she has not been 'breeding them', but rather she took advantage of a, likely, unexpected event, the shift of the Netherse Enclave of Shade into the Plane of Shadows. This gave Shar access to a city full of wizards, all who lusted after power. Thus, she could train them in shadow Magic, safely concealed in the Plane of Shadows, where no one would know about it. Add to that Shar is the Goddess of Secrets, it is not surprising she could hide the Shade Enclave while in her home Plane. Next:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Williams:
Why is that it appears in the 3E Forgotten Realms campaign setting and not other editions?
You have actually touched on a surprisingly important issue here Jeffrey. First, from a design perspective I would say because it was an idea created by the designers who created the new edition. It was probably something they thought was cool and would add depth and conflict to the Realms, so they added it. As far as Realms history goes, Shar has secretly been cultivating the Shadow Weave since it's creation, whenever that was, and only now has released magic users aware of it into the Realms to train others in the use of Shadow Magic. One of the interesting things about this though, at various times in older, pre-third edition Realms products, and in other settings, the term 'shadow magic' has been used and discarded fairly often. In the Realms I seem to recall an obscure bit of shadow magic popping up in one book or another, something that an NPCs used in an adventure or as a plot piece. Honestly, the concept of 'shadow magic' has been thrown around too freely in the past, so now we are left to sort through it. I generally think any references made to 'shadow magic' before Third Edition as an anomaly, and I do not associate them with the Shadow Weave, however, you make your own call. Next:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Williams:
Why Mystra cannot sense it (even though she is the Goddess of the Weave)?
Well, this one is simple. The Weave and the Shadow Weave are two different entities. Mystra controls the Weave, Shar the Shadow Weave. It is not like the two are connected, but rather mirrors of each other, in a way. Next:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Williams:
Why is a corrupted form of the Weave more powerful then a purified or coherent form of the same magic?
Short answer, its not. Regular magic is no weaker or stronger than shadow magic, however many of the powerful users of shadow magic are Shades, which is very important. Shades are beings of shadow that are highly resistant to magic, in all forms, and are very powerful when in the dark. Therefore the more powerful shadow mages can easily resist normal magic because they are in fact shades. Although, I should note being a Shadow Adept means you would get some increased saving throws and the ability to overcome spell resistance to some extent, these are abilities a normal mage can get by taking archmage and the right feats. The only real strength of the Shadow Weave is that no one really knows much about it, or how it works, so that can be a strength of it.
Now, as for the Shadow Weave's creation, there are two diverging schools of though here. One, the Shadow Weave was created at the same time as the Weave, when Mystryl was born and has always been there, hidden. Two, when Mystryl died during the Fall of Netheril the Weave somehow split and Shar used the discarded portion to craft the Shadow Weave. Which is right? I really cannot say. Several canon sources disagree completely on this matter, so I cannot guess. In my opinion the Shadow Weave scenario is just the logical conclusion resulting from a bad idea, that is, making Midnight (Mystra Number 2) Neutral Good. Essentially they are quickly moving towards a good magic/bad magic situation, which I think would be silly and pointless.
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Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 21:01:10
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| Actually fellow scribes, I must protest. The Shadow Weave IS stronger than the Weave, because the Weave has 9th level spell limits, and the Shadow Weave does not. The Shadow Weave is almost as powerful as ancient Netherese magic. However, the added power comes with a price, because if you do not worship Shar, the twisted secrets of the Shadow Weave will inevitably decay your mind. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 22:40:23
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| While it is possible, no where is that been proven. Also, technically speaking elves can employ magic from the normal Weave that is higher than 9th level. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 20:39:46
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| Yes, but that requires either a circle of mages, or a mythal. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 21:13:28
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Incorrect. From Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves:
quote:
Originally from Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves:
From the fall of Netheril in the fourth century before Dalereckoning, no human could cast magic greater than ninth level without the direct intervention and attentions of Mystra, though elves could still cast tenth-level spells. The elves' ability to cast magics greater than that (through wizard spells, not High Magic) were blocked like the humans...
Essentially, the passage states elves retained the ability to cast tenth level magics, but not beyond. The only way they could acess magic more powerful than tenth level was through High Magic. So, you were correct about being able to acess certain powerful magic only through High Magic, but not tenth level spells. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 31 Jan 2004 21:15:13 |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 21:25:39
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I stand corrected. I must have overlooked that tome...... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 21:34:16
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| Most people do. Its a big tome, lots of words. Even those who have read it don't remember half of it. I know I have to keep on my desk. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 14:19:43
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| you dont have to whorship Shar to use it and still not become twisted. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 00:45:12
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| You will be hunted by Shar and her followers though, if she deems it necessary. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 06:12:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Actually fellow scribes, I must protest. The Shadow Weave IS stronger than the Weave, because the Weave has 9th level spell limits, and the Shadow Weave does not. The Shadow Weave is almost as powerful as ancient Netherese magic.
It doesn't say that in the FRCS, and it was suggested here on Candlekeep that Shar would lay the same restriction on her Shadow Weave to remove any threats to her. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 22:09:37
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| It was suggested, but it was not proven "canon", Bookwyrm. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:04:32
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| Nor has it been proven the Shadow Weave is stronger, so the point of canon is moot. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 01:37:14
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| The Shadow Weave can sustain a floating city (i.e. Shade) whereas the Weave cannot. Point Proven. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 03:13:14
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| Non sequitor. The Weave can support nigh-indestructable magical barriers that blanket entire cities, and yet it posesses numerous restrictions on it. The scope of the magic in existance has very little to do with the restrictions placed on a Weave, Shadow or Normal. Mystra in the past has granted frequent exceptions to her bans on powerful magic, so it would follow Shar would do the same. You cannot say, "The city floats, therefore the Weave supporting it must be more powerful." I am sure a couple of Elven High Mages could go create a city of Myth Whatever and make its Grand Power the ability to fly. One exception does not disprove the rules exist, just as the assertation Shar would not want to suffer a similar fate to Mystryl does not mean the rules exist. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 04 Feb 2004 03:18:30 |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2004 : 20:02:00
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So;
Shadow weave exist in the gaps of magic. That's a fact, if I get it right.
That means for me that once the magic was whole then seperated from each other. Shar kept that secret very well and the distict powers seperated from the weave were on hold. I believe both weaves have access to unique spells that maybe only allowed to the choosens. I don't know if I put my point clearly.
But for me this is about realms' theology. And shadow weave is the long term secret of the dark side of magic. Many evil spell casters were after some kind of immortality and they tend to lichdom but other evil mages had no major deity to follow. Many worshiped Bane for his title of god of tyranity but their love - in many cases lust- is magic to rule and power.
Now after Shar's revelation they will possibly follow her.
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 20:51:51
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| why would they? they belive that Bane wil claim the weave... |
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PyrateJenni
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2004 : 20:36:24
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| I'm wondering if Shar's Chosen -- should she have any, presently or in the future -- will have shadowfire as the opposite of silverfire. |
"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense." -- Tom Clancy_ |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2004 : 21:08:48
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| ::The Bookwyrm silently hands Pyrate Jenni a scroll she seems to have missed.:: |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Shayan
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 07:44:11
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EDIT: Sorry to bring up an old thread...
Are the users of the Shadow Weave (IE: The Shades) affected by light?
I mean... do they get penalised on their casting? Or are they in anyway (physically or mentally) hindered whilst manipulating the Shadow Weave in a bright room/area?
I know that the Drow are obstructed when trying to cast in a bright area... but that is because of their physical attributes (as I am told)...
For the sake of the scenario, take a human dark wizard, who has lived all his life on the surface and is light tolerante, adept in using the Shadow Weave, attempted to cast a spell under direct sunlight... would he succeed? |
Someone please tell me where to buy FR books in Australia!! Pretty Please... 
Shayan's Subrace Engine - for NWNhttp://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Scripts.Detail&id=2603 |
Edited by - Shayan on 10 Dec 2004 07:47:01 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 14:17:58
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I can not find any direct answer about Shadow Weave , however exploring WotC site it appears to be clear that some magic can be cast under conditions of light.
Shadow Well for example uses a tragets shadow to pocket plane trap target for a few rounds. I see nothing of any spells that require them to be cast in the dark.
As for " Drow are obstructed when trying to cast in a bright area"
Eilistraee clearly grants magic to her Clerics on the surface and they can cast spells on the surface, this though some might argue occurs only at night.
Bright light does cause light blindness however the entry for that reads that a Drow is blinded for one round and then Dazzled (-1 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls, saves, and checks while operating in bright light) there is not anyplace that I can find in the SRD that even a blind character can not cast a spell. I do not find anyplace in the SRD that a Drow can not cast a spell in bright light. There may be a source out there that I am unaware of that prevents casting in bright light however I do not recall that restriction in even 2nd Edition Drow could cast in bright light "Characters subject to spells cast by drow affected by a light or continual light spell add a +2 bonus to their saving throws." Bight light just reduces the chance of a spell working.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 10 Dec 2004 14:21:36 |
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Shadow Weave
