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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 04:00:05
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Greetings, it appears to me that the Devils of the Nine Hells are portrayed as superior to the Demons of the Abyss, take for example Asmodeus who recently became a Greater Deity in 4e and plunged the Abyss into the depths of the Elemental Chaos, I always thought that the two combatants of the Blood War should be portrayed as equals but apparently they're not, why is that? why do the official source materials always make the Devils superior to Demons?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 04:23:47
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Well that calls for an opinion.
As such for a better answer you would need to chat with the designers.
It clearly strikes me that devils are more evil then demons, however this is my opinion. So it might follow that the greater evil beats lessor evil.
I can also offer the idea the Hell has not levels and the Abyss over 600. It could be that Devils are more organized then the more chaotic Demons. Better organization tends to beat less organized structures. That because of fewer levels, less chance of disorganization or weakness in a war. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 04:40:22
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| I will add that the creator of the FR, Ed Greenwood, wrote a number of articles on Hell and its denizens in Dragon magazine back in the 1e days. It may be that the Hells have simply received more attention because more of its lore made it into canon back in the day. I will note that the Hells have always been described as more organized thus stronger from a military standpoint...the Abyss held its own against them because they had hordes of demons to throw at them. I don't think it was ever intentional for one to viewed as better than the other though. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 04:47:08
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| Something else, Gary Gygax seemed to favor chaos over law. To whit, in his Greyhawk campaign you had Iuz, the son of Iggwilv and Grazzt, Lolth the demon queen of spiders and goddess of the (highly feared) drow, and even his world's greatest wizard in history, Zagyg, was a chaotic neutral badass. But it does seem that, over the years/decades, the game has emphasized the Hells moreso than the Abyss. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 06:56:29
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Individually the Devils are indeed more powerful than the Demons. That is actually an equalizer since the hordes of the Abyss are essentially endless.
As for Asmodeus being so powerful...that is something I don't hold well to. It is better to me that he is simply a highly powerful fiend; and that is the way I run it (because I haven't went beyond 2e in my timeline really).
However, there are individual Demons that should be able to (and obviously would!) give Asmodeus a run for his money in combat toe to toe...unfortunately for such fiends as live in the Abyss, Asmodeus is far ahead of the curve in contingency planning and plotting... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 22:54:37
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The Abyss is said to have 666 layers for convenience; even the most seasoned half-immortal of planeswalkers in Planescape lore could never claim to have visited them all or actually know exactly how many exist.
Later planeslore suggested that deeper layers of the Abyss may sometimes merge or diverge or branch apart in nonlinear fashion, one cannot simple start at the “top“ and progress one layer at a time towards the “bottom“ (assuming there is one). Much of this is simply unpredictable Chaos, but much also is caused by various high-order demons asserting claims of dominion over one or more layers. Boundaries within the Abyss are eternally shifting, it might sometimes even contain layers or domains which are technically parts of other (darker) D&D universes.
The exciting thing about the Abyss is that anything can emerge from it, spawned from some horrible pit of evil thus far never known or imagined. This has been underplayed a bit since the introduction of the Far Realms, but many unspeakable abominations always manifest within the Abyss, and a few even manage to claw their way out of it.
Demons are not utterly disorganized; strong demons dominate weak demoms, they are often encountered in large groups which operate almost like large mobs or street gangs. Many are as powerful and intelligent as their devil counterparts, and even the weakest are opportunistically out for themselves yet (usually) fearfully subservient to their leaders.
Of course, devils maintain that demons are infinite in numbers but failed to win the Blood War, thus they must be infinitely incompetent. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 09:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Abyss is said to have 666 layers for convenience; even the most seasoned half-immortal of planeswalkers in Planescape lore could never claim to have visited them all or actually know exactly how many exist.
Later planeslore suggested that deeper layers of the Abyss may sometimes merge or diverge or branch apart in nonlinear fashion, one cannot simple start at the “top“ and progress one layer at a time towards the “bottom“ (assuming there is one). Much of this is simply unpredictable Chaos, but much also is caused by various high-order demons asserting claims of dominion over one or more layers. Boundaries within the Abyss are eternally shifting, it might sometimes even contain layers or domains which are technically parts of other (darker) D&D universes.
The exciting thing about the Abyss is that anything can emerge from it, spawned from some horrible pit of evil thus far never known or imagined. This has been underplayed a bit since the introduction of the Far Realms, but many unspeakable abominations always manifest within the Abyss, and a few even manage to claw their way out of it.
Demons are not utterly disorganized; strong demons dominate weak demoms, they are often encountered in large groups which operate almost like large mobs or street gangs. Many are as powerful and intelligent as their devil counterparts, and even the weakest are opportunistically out for themselves yet (usually) fearfully subservient to their leaders.
Of course, devils maintain that demons are infinite in numbers but failed to win the Blood War, thus they must be infinitely incompetent.
Well you have to admit that despite having all these advantages the demons never gained even a tiny foothold into the Nine hells.
They main reason is that they lack any form of proper organisation and tactical skill.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 10:39:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well you have to admit that despite having all these advantages the demons never gained even a tiny foothold into the Nine hells.
They main reason is that they lack any form of proper organisation and tactical skill.
Conversely despite having the advantages of superior tactical skills and proper organization devils never gained even a tiny foothold into the Abyss.
I don't by that Devils are more powerful than Demons individually. Demons are atleast on par physically. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 10:51:56
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The main reason while no side prevailed in the Blood War (for me) is that the demons are disorganised as a whole (meaning individual archdemons and demon princes can field perfectly fit armies, but they wont work together often) and spend as much energy on the Blood War as they do in infighting between them. On the other hand the devils share the common goal of surviving, fight under unified orders and the Lords of the Nine can't war between them willy nilly but have to resort to intrigue and backstabbing thanks to Asmodeus' rule and sovereignity.
The devils would lose the war the moment the demons started acting like an alliance instead of spreading their forces thin and fighting among each other. So in my eyes the devils are barely surviving, while the demons have the potential to win the war but are too absorbed in their petty disputes for this or that layer or this or that title or this or that millennia-old slight.
Also, as far as D&D canon goes, unless the yugoloths are taken out, no side will ever win the Blood War i think.
This is all my opinion of course. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 22:51:28
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I think the whole point of the Blood War is exactly that it is pointless. Neither side can actually realize their ultimate objective: seize, inhabit, and eternally control the other side‘s “home“ plane. A fiend‘s power dimishes away from his native plane, while his adversaries‘s do not. Thus the real point of the Blood War is just blood and war, fiendish hate feeds the war which feeds the hate, and fiends just love to hate things. The rest of the cosmos may be perfectly content to just stay out of the way and let the fiends rend each other into evil oblivion, but somehow the fallout and collateral damage tends to have a long, long reach. Few planes or worlds remain entirely untouched by the fiends, certainly none that any archfiends take any active interest in acquiring.
Having said that, legends and rumours and speculation about the Blood War often suggest that it came really, really, alarmingly close to a final victory for one side or the other, countless times. I personally think that the devils have done reasonably well, being outnumbered by a nearly infinite horde and all. Note that celestials/etc have also never destroyed the fiends they oppose. The peculiar quirks of planars basically means that no meaningful resolution to these eternal wars can ever be reached, unless, perhaps, they are decided through the deeds of lowly mortals. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Jan 2014 23:07:52 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 23:12:20
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quote:
Also, as far as D&D canon goes, unless the yugoloths are taken out, no side will ever win the Blood War i think.
Ah the yugoloths, my favorite fiends.  They play both sides like a fiddle and neither side seems capable of doing anything about it. Add the fact that it has been said the angelic hosts and the gods they serve have a vested interest in keeping the Blood War going...and so the eternal struggle continues.
I love the Blood War. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 05:39:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I think the whole point of the Blood War is exactly that it is pointless. Neither side can actually realize their ultimate objective: seize, inhabit, and eternally control the other side‘s “home“ plane. A fiend‘s power dimishes away from his native plane, while his adversaries‘s do not. Thus the real point of the Blood War is just blood and war, fiendish hate feeds the war which feeds the hate, and fiends just love to hate things. The rest of the cosmos may be perfectly content to just stay out of the way and let the fiends rend each other into evil oblivion, but somehow the fallout and collateral damage tends to have a long, long reach. Few planes or worlds remain entirely untouched by the fiends, certainly none that any archfiends take any active interest in acquiring.
Having said that, legends and rumours and speculation about the Blood War often suggest that it came really, really, alarmingly close to a final victory for one side or the other, countless times. I personally think that the devils have done reasonably well, being outnumbered by a nearly infinite horde and all. Note that celestials/etc have also never destroyed the fiends they oppose. The peculiar quirks of planars basically means that no meaningful resolution to these eternal wars can ever be reached, unless, perhaps, they are decided through the deeds of lowly mortals.
The hilarity in this is that if you believe some sources, the Blood War was originally part of the War of Law and Chaos but the fiends simply did not stop fighting due to their own inherent natures. Blood, pointless, brutal conflict. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 05:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The main reason while no side prevailed in the Blood War (for me) is that the demons are disorganised as a whole (meaning individual archdemons and demon princes can field perfectly fit armies, but they wont work together often) and spend as much energy on the Blood War as they do in infighting between them. On the other hand the devils share the common goal of surviving, fight under unified orders and the Lords of the Nine can't war between them willy nilly but have to resort to intrigue and backstabbing thanks to Asmodeus' rule and sovereignity.
The devils would lose the war the moment the demons started acting like an alliance instead of spreading their forces thin and fighting among each other. So in my eyes the devils are barely surviving, while the demons have the potential to win the war but are too absorbed in their petty disputes for this or that layer or this or that title or this or that millennia-old slight.
Also, as far as D&D canon goes, unless the yugoloths are taken out, no side will ever win the Blood War i think.
This is all my opinion of course.
I always saw it in a mostly similar fashion. The less powerful demons are trying to eke out some power for themselves, so they prostrate/backstab/ally/ themselves in endeavours that could get them some power.
The truly powerful demons are trying to obtain Demorgorgons title of Prince of Demons and be top dog while trying to survive all other contenders to the title.
The devils meanwhile are striving to survive and bring more souls down to Hell to replenish ranks and such. If not for the Blood War, I think Avernus would be rules by the Dark Eight as opposed to Bel, but that's just my 2 coppers on the matter. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 22:36:36
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A curious parallel of sorts from (early) Realmslore was that evil groups like the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim were thought to be sufficiently powerful to accomplish great things - slay Elminster, crater Cormyr, seize the Dales, etc - but never actually managed to accomplish anything more than marginally menacing because of their internal backstabbing, overspread ambitions, and general lack of uniform focus or cooperation towards any single objective.
It seems curious to me, at least, because these groups tended a bit more towards Lawful than Chaotic alignments; yet Realmslore demonstrates that they had little impact in the grand scheme of things. This is exactly the sort of problem with demon hordes, no matter how powerful and fearsome their leader might be. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 03:43:00
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quote:
A curious parallel of sorts from (early) Realmslore...
Quite true but then El and the Sisters are (now) known to have meddled in their endeavors. It's likely that they fueled some of their feuds throughout the years. Which is what I think the angelic beings are doing in the backdrop of the Blood War. Whenever one side seems to be tipping the scales they meddle with the balance of power to keep them fighting. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 22:50:29
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I‘d think Celestials would actually prefer to destroy the fiendish underdog in such situations. Fewer fiends can only be a good thing, overall. There is something to the logic of trying to keep both sides down fighting each other eternally, but it‘s a useless strategy without willingness to deal the finally decisive killstroke when the time is right.
Perhaps it is not so much celestials, but those untrusty Neutrals who use this approach most effectively. The Yugoloths come to mind first, it‘s in their best interest to betray the winner and seize defeat from the jaws of victory if need be to eternally sustain this war (and their opportunities to serve as paid mercenaries within it). I‘m not uncomfortable with the assertion that fiends are vastly more powerful than celestials on the Lower Planes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 23:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I‘d think Celestials would actually prefer to destroy the fiendish underdog in such situations. Fewer fiends can only be a good thing, overall. There is something to the logic of trying to keep both sides down fighting each other eternally, but it‘s a useless strategy without willingness to deal the finally decisive killstroke when the time is right.
The thing is that the celestials are just as divided, being celestials they resolve their differences just much more peacefully.
However no celestial side could stand by and allow such a slide in balance. If either the demons or the devils would win, the multiverse would suffer a huge slide toward chaos or law. The chaotic/lawfull good celestials are as much creatures of chaos/law as they're creatures of good. They could not thrive in an universe strongly ruled by the other force.
The LG heaven is no heaven to a CG outsider and vice versa. They're good enough to let everybody live as he sees fit (unlike the fiends), but it's not for them.
If a side on the blood war would really, really, really be losing, the CN/LN outsiders would need to intervene for "their side" and eventually even the good outsiders would be pitted directly against each other. Nothing less than their existence would be at stake. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 23:27:32
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Oh yeah, bring on the Modron legions! Tip the balance towards Baatezu, then sort all that evil nonsense out alphabetically, by size, then colour, etc.
Methinks the Baatezu are functionally as nearly-infinite as the Tanar‘ri. Yes, they can only field a certain fixed quantity of leaders and legions, but they can (and do) always replace their losses from the seemingly endless supply of Lawful Evil soulstuff which continually pervades their plane. It seems that mortals are the key to victory, and it seems there are always enough LE and CE mortals to let the Blood War burn forever. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 14:36:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I‘d think Celestials would actually prefer to destroy the fiendish underdog in such situations. Fewer fiends can only be a good thing, overall. There is something to the logic of trying to keep both sides down fighting each other eternally, but it‘s a useless strategy without willingness to deal the finally decisive killstroke when the time is right.
The thing is that the celestials are just as divided, being celestials they resolve their differences just much more peacefully.
However no celestial side could stand by and allow such a slide in balance. If either the demons or the devils would win, the multiverse would suffer a huge slide toward chaos or law. The chaotic/lawfull good celestials are as much creatures of chaos/law as they're creatures of good. They could not thrive in an universe strongly ruled by the other force.
The LG heaven is no heaven to a CG outsider and vice versa. They're good enough to let everybody live as he sees fit (unlike the fiends), but it's not for them.
If a side on the blood war would really, really, really be losing, the CN/LN outsiders would need to intervene for "their side" and eventually even the good outsiders would be pitted directly against each other. Nothing less than their existence would be at stake.
That is a good point but as Celestials are paragons of good perhaps they may be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. They may decide taking down both the demons and devils is a worthwhile trade for their lives. |
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Nine Hells > The Abyss?
