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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 11:17:04
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I was wondering if it was possible to slay a deity by someone without a divine rank? I remember something about that mortals (no divine rank) could not give the finishing blow. Is this true?
Is there examples of mortals taking on deities and comming out as victorious?
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 12:17:45
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Karsus. And Vosthym, when he was younger and healthier. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 14:18:34
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| Uh, that's how it usually happens. It's not necessary to have any divine status, sponsorship of someone who already have is enough - e.g. Finder presumably was aided by Tymora (his patron) and possibly Tyr (as per the acting alliance against Moander in the first book). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 14:55:36
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So... no need for another god to help, if you are just powerful enough. Lets say that Larloch was tired of Shar, and gathered all his friends and teleported/gated to her home plane, and attacked her. Lets just say that he somehow was powerful enough to get her hp down to -10 would she permanently die, or would she just keep on going since Larloch has no divinity or would she return like a lich does?
And in the event she died, what would happen to her portfolio?
Sorry, just think its all very confusing. |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 12 Jan 2014 14:56:45 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 15:06:47
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As far as I'm aware, as long as you're on the god's home plane when you kill them, they're as good as dead (just like most other outsiders). Of course, as is often the case with powerful outsiders (Orcus, Bane, Moander, etc, etc.), events can conspire to bring the god back.
Also, the sheer power of most gods makes this task next to impossible - unless you're playing 4th edition, where killing gods is relatively easy.
...And don't bother trying to kill Cthulhu. He's a special case. He'll come back no matter what you do to him. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 16:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
So... no need for another god to help, if you are just powerful enough. Lets say that Larloch was tired of Shar, and gathered all his friends and teleported/gated to her home plane, and attacked her. Lets just say that he somehow was powerful enough to get her hp down to -10 would she permanently die, or would she just keep on going since Larloch has no divinity or would she return like a lich does?
And in the event she died, what would happen to her portfolio?
Sorry, just think its all very confusing.
No, you have to have divine assistance. So Larloch wouldn't be able to permanently kill Shar (or even Velsharoon) if he didn't have a deity helping. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 17:50:29
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Ok... so what help is actially needed? Does Larloch need divinity (given by another deity) or does the helping deity need to coup de gras Shar for him?
I assume that Larloch's magic would be able to hurt Shar... right? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 22:33:59
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Cyric, perhaps. Although
1) his weapon, Godsbane, was actually an avatar of another god,
2) he kinda had Aos tacit permission, and
3) the Faerūnian deities were unusually vulnerable during the Avatar Crisis. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 02:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Karsus. And Vosthym, when he was younger and healthier.
Technically, Karsus didn't kill Mystryl. She killed herself. All he did was usurp her portfolio. Killing herself was the only way to break his connection to her and regain her rightful title.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
So... no need for another god to help, if you are just powerful enough. Lets say that Larloch was tired of Shar, and gathered all his friends and teleported/gated to her home plane, and attacked her. Lets just say that he somehow was powerful enough to get her hp down to -10 would she permanently die, or would she just keep on going since Larloch has no divinity or would she return like a lich does?
And in the event she died, what would happen to her portfolio?
Sorry, just think its all very confusing.
No, you have to have divine assistance. So Larloch wouldn't be able to permanently kill Shar (or even Velsharoon) if he didn't have a deity helping.
That's also not exactly true. You can kill a power through special circumstances or with the help of another power. So yes, Larloch could possibly kill Shar if he had something that was the anti-thesis of her portfolio, something that could mortally wound her essence and keep her from reforming.
Granted, that doesn't mean he could kill Shar. Afterall, Shar at the very least, would be outright immune to mortal magic (I prefer 2e, in case you're wondering, 3e was far too mechanical in nature). 10th level and over spells could have effect (at least 11th, since Karsus was the only one to cast a 12th level spell), but that severally limits his magical resources.
Also, it'd be all for naught since someone else would just take her place. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
Edited by - Milith holder of HB8 on 14 Feb 2014 02:20:40 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 22:21:54
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So the reason for Larloch not being able to kill Shar is because that she is bound to her portfolio, and cant die unless someone else takes over that/them?
Or...
She is simply immune to mortal magic or at the very least highly resistant. Even magic as powerful as that of Larloch just wont make much of a dent?
Or...
Is it because of her divinity? That to destroy divinity, you must yourself be divine in some nature? (This seems odd to me, since apparently primordial can "scare" the deities and even prismatic dragons are mentioned as putting fear in the gods). |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 00:27:17
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Well in some it appears to come down to which Edition rules are in play.
As to killing a deity, final death can only occur of the deity home plane in Editions 1st and 2nd, the killer need not have divine assistance (Though clearly would need a lot of magic in weapons, spells, etc. to win). Editions past that it appears even a dead deity could come back to life no matter how or by whom killed.
Thus we move on to the more current editions, a deity can not be really killed if portfolio not taken over, this clearly can explain some Evil deities returning killed by good deities - they could not take the portfolios, left out there for others to take or serve as a base to bring back to life.
Deities do tend to have high MR or SR protection from mortal cast spells, so that certainly can be one answer. This not counting the deity's own spell casting ability to counter mortal cast spells.
Clearly you do not have to be divine to destroy divine, Midnight was a Mortal that became Mystra II (Though not sure of how much divine help she had). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 04:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Clearly you do not have to be divine to destroy divine, Midnight was a Mortal that became Mystra II (Though not sure of how much divine help she had).
According to Faiths & Avatars, Midnight was packing a fair amount of Mystra 1.0's essense when she offed Myrkul, so the rule about needing divine assistance to kill a deity was still observed. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 23:07:47
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As I have said before, this whole thing is cofusing to me. Sometimes you run into a peace of text that says something like: "Even the gods fear such magic!" Or something similar... Why should this be, if the gods are only put down by other divine beings. And then again, if one has to be divine, then there is no reason to fear the primordial beings.
Besides from the obvious power difference that makes it nigh impossible for any mortal being to actually take down a god ( Stats blocks) I have difficulty in seeing the rules that govern death for someone with a divine rank. And indeed what governs the rules for the different ranks them selves.
I'm fearing that this has no concrete answer and is wholly situational... without taking Ao's thoughts into account. |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 22 Feb 2014 23:10:32 |
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On mortals and deities
