| Author |
 Topic  |
|
dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 16:30:41
|
| I hate to say this, but I can just can't get the idea of an FR version of Orgrimmar out of my head. |
 |
|
|
Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 17:46:29
|
Someone had to say Orgrimmar...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSsuVk3pc5g
The changes made were often disconcerting and illogical. That being said, I do appreciate the move towards less xenophobic game play. Yes, most people will still not like orcs. They are, after all, bigger, stronger, and more belligerent than most other humanoid races. I do think it's more of how the nation building was handled than the nation building itself that is wrong. So, I would like the nation to remain, but only if its creation is cleaned up and made a bit more logical.
So... I am for the nation, just not for how it was handled. Something a bit less "study war no more" might be more realistic. This precipitous change just feels wrong and unnatural. So... either explain how this unnatural act was made, or change the act to something a bit more reasonable, yes? |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 18:35:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Interesting idea Markus although yelling "All hail the mighty Obouldarr, Obould of Obould!" just doesn't sit well with me. 
No, you got it backwards. It would be, "All hail Obould Grūthang, Ur-Chief of all Obouldarr!" 
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
I hate to say this, but I can just can't get the idea of an FR version of Orgrimmar out of my head.
Why? Its not such a bad idea. Lord of the Clans was one of the few non-FR game novels I thoroughly enjoyed. It even brought tears to my eyes.
Grugach Elves and barbarian humans (not to mention savage dwarves and feral Hin) often kill trespassers into their territories, and STILL, elves and humans are 'not kill on sight', despite the savageness of certain groups.
Why is it so different for Orcs? Why do most orcs 'kill on sight'? Because humans and demihumans have established this protocol by continually try to commit genocide on the Orc race (just look at Netherese history). We don't kill other races just because they are 'violent and ugly', so why the Orcs (and goblioids)? We have tons of proof that Orcs CAN behave themselves when treated with respect, and still we get the, "Look! Monsters!" attitude. We need to stop harming things that are different then us - we can't expect every non-human race to have the same mores and code of conduct as we do - its just not sensible. Thats like trying to hold animals to a strict code of ethics - its just not going to happen. They aren't human, and on a world where there are MANY non-human races, humanity should have realized this long ago.
If you cut them, do they not bleed?
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2014 18:56:45 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:40:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Interesting idea Markus although yelling "All hail the mighty Obouldarr, Obould of Obould!" just doesn't sit well with me.
No, you got it backwards. It would be, "All hail Obould Grūthang, Ur-Chief of all Obouldarr!"
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
I hate to say this, but I can just can't get the idea of an FR version of Orgrimmar out of my head.
Why? Its not such a bad idea. Lord of the Clans was one of the few non-FR game novels I thoroughly enjoyed. It even brought tears to my eyes.
Grugach Elves and barbarian humans (not to mention savage dwarves and feral Hin) often kill trespassers into their territories, and STILL, elves and humans are 'not kill on sight', despite the savageness of certain groups.
Why is it so different for Orcs? Why do most orcs 'kill on sight'? Because humans and demihumans have established this protocol by continually try to commit genocide on the Orc race (just look at Netherese history). We don't kill other races just because they are 'violent and ugly', so why the Orcs (and goblioids)? We have tons of proof that Orcs CAN behave themselves when treated with respect, and still we get the, "Look! Monsters!" attitude. We need to stop harming things that are different then us - we can't expect every non-human race to have the same mores and code of conduct as we do - its just not sensible. Thats like trying to hold animals to a strict code of ethics - its just not going to happen. They aren't human, and on a world where there are MANY non-human races, humanity should have realized this long ago.
If you cut them, do they not bleed?
As has been stated many times before, it likely has something to do with the many, many times that orcs have decided to kill anyone they could get their hands on, simply because they could. Doing that for a few thousand years tends to develop a reputation, and the fact that most orcs are determined to live up to that reputation doesn't help.
The other races you mention protect their own lands. Orcs make a point of entering other lands just to kill -- it's not at all the same thing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:49:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
I hate to say this, but I can just can't get the idea of an FR version of Orgrimmar out of my head.
Why? Its not such a bad idea. Lord of the Clans was one of the few non-FR game novels I thoroughly enjoyed. It even brought tears to my eyes.
Grugach Elves and barbarian humans (not to mention savage dwarves and feral Hin) often kill trespassers into their territories, and STILL, elves and humans are 'not kill on sight', despite the savageness of certain groups.
Why is it so different for Orcs? Why do most orcs 'kill on sight'? Because humans and demihumans have established this protocol by continually try to commit genocide on the Orc race (just look at Netherese history). We don't kill other races just because they are 'violent and ugly', so why the Orcs (and goblioids)? We have tons of proof that Orcs CAN behave themselves when treated with respect, and still we get the, "Look! Monsters!" attitude. We need to stop harming things that are different then us - we can't expect every non-human race to have the same mores and code of conduct as we do - its just not sensible. Thats like trying to hold animals to a strict code of ethics - its just not going to happen. They aren't human, and on a world where there are MANY non-human races, humanity should have realized this long ago.
If you cut them, do they not bleed?
I really didn't want to be disruptive with that comment, I'm just rather sick of WoW and I don't want to be reminded of it. With that said, I just don't see why a particular nation of Orcs is needed in the FR.
Sure, there might be areas that orc clans control, but they shouldn't be anymore advanced than human savages and barbarians. I just don't see the need for orcs to have a feudal society either. When a race has limited intelligence, i have serious reservations with its ability to incorporate more advanced forms of social development and organization.
On the other hand Hobgoblins have always had a level of intelligence on par with humans, so for them it seems more plausible.
With that said, I'm not opposed to orcs having a kingdom, I just think they need to evolve as a race before that can happen. Take a look at the Minotaurs of Taladas. The designers made sure they evolved a bit more before they handed them a mini-roman empire. It's like going back in time and trying to create a kingdom out of neanderthals.. it just can't happen (as far as we know ).
In addition, Obould is the only thing holding that kingdom together. He was gifted with higher intelligence. If he ever falls, the entire kingdom will fall like a house of cards. It's just won't be stable. That's most likely why he won't be killed off either. Obould will have act like Genghis Khan for a while and spawn a new generation of orcs with higher intelligence.... IMO, the children of Obould would be the only ones capable of keeping the kingdom alive.
|
Edited by - dmgorgon on 02 Jan 2014 20:53:36 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 21:04:27
|
Personally, if I was given the task of building an orc nation in the Realms, I'd take one of two approaches.
1) The isolated approach: Your average orc horde goes a-swarming all over the land. A group enters a large and fertile valley with only one entrance, and the entrance gets sealed behind them. With no one to fight and no other way to survive, the orcs turn to farming and herding. Many, many years later, contact with the outside world is re-established... But now these orcs live the same basic lifestyle as the people outside that valley, so peaceful relations are established.
2) Guided development: Obould and his senior lieutenants aren't actually orcs -- they are a group of scro, for some reason cut off from the scro war effort (maybe a ship that was wrecked during the Second Unhuman War, perhaps). These scro, posing as orcs, set out to do the same thing with regular orcs that Dukagsh did (it would help immensely if some of the scro were war-priests of Dukagsh). By pointing to the way civilization has aided the "weaker" races in stopping orc hordes, these scro are able to impress upon the orcs the value of cooperation and non-combat roles. With wise and strict guidance, Obould and his scro manage to reforge the orcs of the north into something not quite scro, but no longer just regular orcs. Of course, this approach still leaves the issue of what happens when Obould passes, but that's not an insurmountable challenge -- maybe Obould carefully raises some orc/scro hybrids to continue his vision. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 01:10:01
|
Why is it that when a group of (demi)humans invades an orc dwelling its called 'adventuring', and the locale is labeled 'a dungeon'.
But when Orcs do the same thing, they call it 'raiding' and the place is called 'a settlement'.
Double-standard, much?
The orcs have just been giving back what they've gotten for some 30 thousand years. Getting mad at Orcs for the way they behave is like getting angry with Native Americans for attacking settlers. When your way of life is threatened, and others have stolen your land, you have the right to fight back. They behave no differently then elves, or anyone else for that matter. In fact, orcs at least give you a fighting chance and attack you to your face. Elves just send a tidal wave or two to wipe-out entire cities of women and children. Give me an orc any day... at least their honest about their hatred. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 01:42:42
|
can we leave the elves out of this please, we all know taht you don't like the FR elves.
and btw jhaamdath had it coming, if not by the elves but by being wiped out by each of its neighbors, down to the last person able to hold a weapon(yes this does mean women & children). |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 03:19:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Justice is an idea.
I'd say that peace with orcs is every bit as much of an abstract idea as justice ever was. In fact, I'd say peace with orcs is even more ephemeral, and imaginary, than justice. The goodly leaders of the North decided to set aside justice, based on blind faith that Obould and his orcs would not push further. That was a foolishly dangerous leap of faith, IMO.
quote:
It works well in a world of ideas, but not so much in a world where those ideas have consequences.
I think you got that exactly wrong. Justice works precisely in a world where there are consequences--that's what it means to have justice.
It only doesn't work in a world where authorities conspire to prevent there from being consequences--like in the North, after Obould waged his unprovoked war.
quote:
Obould was the driving force behind the establishment of a stable orc state.
How stable was it, really?
Immediately after the cease-fire, his orcs flooded from Keeper's Dale down into the region southwest of Mithral Hall to occupy the land right down to the Surbrin and the Trollmoors. They took even more land during that cease-fire. And the leaders of the North looked the other way.
In 1372 DR, Chieftain Grguch rose up from the Spine of the World mountains and started the violence up again, first against the elves, and then against the dwarves and humans, and King Obould approved of these actions. Obould only acted to stop Grguch when he found out that Grguch was planning to take the kingdom away from him. Obould was not averse to continuing the violence--he was only averse to him not being the one who was in charge of it.
We are told that the orcs continued to engage in border skirmishes throughout the next century. Warmongering shamans continued to rile up the orcs, no matter who sat in the throne. The kingdom even broke out into civil war on occasion. King Obould VI was embarrassed for his orcs, and annoyed that the other nations of the North continued to look the other way and tolerate thuggish behavior from his orcs that they would never tolerate from their own people.
And according to the FRCG (4E), by 1479 DR, the kingdom had shrunken back to its pre-First Orc War size, becoming confined to the Spine of the World, all over again.
That doesn't sound stable to me. It sounds chaotic and ever-changing.
It's only stable if we, like the other leaders of the North, look the other way and don't actually consider the facts. When we're told that the nation was, for the most part, stable and peaceful over the last century, that just means that we're being asked to ignore the above facts like the leaders of the North did.
Peace with orcs--at least these orcs--was nothing but a pie-in-the-sky pipe dream, founded on nothing but blind faith, and never really fulfilled.
quote:
Removing him in the interest of justice would have set the whole house of cards tumbling down and would have resulted in a prolonged conflict.
I couldn't have said it better myself: The Kingdom of Many-Arrows was a house of cards. It was a charade--a sham. The peace with orcs that it offered was fake peace.
Dwarves, at least, have never before been afraid of prolonged conflict. They have always proudly been willing to face such, head on, if it were predicated on a just cause. They would not shy away from it, just because it was hard and unpleasant. They're dwarves: "hard" and "unpleasant" are their middle names!
The execution of the KoMA has irked me not only because it has implied that the orcs and their god suddenly changed alignment/personalities, but because it implied that the dwarves and their gods did so, too. The races all suddenly became hand-wringing pacifists, despite all the previous lore which said they have always been anything but.
Why did all of those other orc and dwarf leaders in the past not sign treaties instead of waging in war? Why now, all of a sudden?
Bah!
quote:
It's a choice between thousands of deaths on both sides in pursuit of an abstract idea, or an immediate cease fire.
I get that. War is hell. Casualties of war suck, to no end. Even the most honorable, most noble wars produce victims, on all sides. It's a lousy business.
But I also get the noble, never-give-up, never-surrender mentality, as well. I get the fight-to-the-very-end mindset. There is such thing as a just war, and noble sacrifice. Body counts don't undo or negate that, either.
There is a notion that sometimes it's OK to get in a fight and lose, because at least you stood up for yourself instead of simply getting walked all over. There is more honor is licking your wounds than there is in cleaning mud from your enemy's boots off your face because you let him use you as a doormat. There's even honor when you get really, really beaten up.
But justice and honor both got thrown out the window by the leaders of the North, because they suddenly became uncharacteristically more concerned about body counts. And that just doesn't feel right.
Yes, more people (on both sides) got to live because of the Treaty; this is true. But they got to live with the burden of undelivered justice weighing heavily over their heads, and the shame/embarrassment of being indulged by their patronizing neighbors, because certain leaders were committed to upholding other abstract principles du jour.
At what point does mere survival cease to have meaning? When does the sacrifice of one's principles become too much? How much crud can one eat in the name of appeasement and pacifist political correctness?
quote:
It also opens both sides up to an uneasy precedent; executing Obould for killing people would make Bruenor or Drizzt liable for execution for killing hundreds of orcs.
Why?!
Because neither Bruenor nor Drizzt went up into Dark Arrow Keep in the Spine of the World mountains to fight orcs in their home. The orcs killed Felbarr dwarves out on the open road, and humans in the village of Clicking Heels and the town of Shallows, and more dwarves on non-orc battlefields and even in their own home of Mithral Hall.
Notice that the orc King Greneire had been the one who cost King Obould his control of the Citadel of Many-Arrows (Felbarr), but Obould didn't decide to wage war on fellow orcs. He took it to the humans, dwarves, and elves.
Neither Bruenor nor Drizzt did anything of the kind.
quote:
Failure to enforce that sets the precedent that an orc's life is less valuable than that of a human, elf, or dwarf. Many-Arrows would have essentially been a servitor state, and its orcs would be second class citizens.
Not at all. An orc's life isn't worth less.
But an orc who starts a war is more deserving of death than a human/dwarf/elf who doesn't start a war.
What could the people of lowly pathetic Clicking Heels (I'll set Shallows aside, for the moment) ever do to orcs and frost giants? Evidently not very much: You read how easily the humans were crushed.
The orcs and giants carefully picked their targets (completely unaware sitting ducks at first) and then overwhelmed them with swarming numbers. There was no just cause for their war, and there was no honor in their tactics. Therefore, the orcs were less deserving of life, from then on. They weren't inherently less deserving--they were effectively less deserving, as an effect/consequence of their actions.
But consequences were thrown out the window. Justice was disregarded.
Instead, we have a situation in which the leaders of the North morally and legally equated orc assaults on other settlements with human/dwarven/elven defenses of their territories against those orcan assaults. The offense was depicted as being no worse than the defense. It was all called a wash.
And further defensive actions were ruled out as being too costly, no matter the seriousness of the prevaricating offense. Retaliation was deemed to be empty and worthless.
But self-defense will never be the same as an unprovoked attack, in my book. It will always hold great value to me. I don't care how much whitewashing and politicking the leaders of the North sling. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 03 Jan 2014 03:40:44 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 03:27:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
ANYHOW... the more times I look at this thread, the more I am getting annoyed at the name itself. 'Many Arrows' may have been fine at the beginning, but it really does sound way too aggressive for a new nation trying to establish reasonable relations with its neighbors.
Might I suggest they re-name the country itself 'Obould', in honor of its founder, and get rid of the never-ending line of Obould kings? Or perhaps some derivation of Obould - like Obouldarr or some such? Then maybe call the rulers 'The Obould' (instead of king).
Just a thought.
As I mentioned in the Many-Arrows Borders scroll, initially Obould did contemplate the idea of an empire called "Obouldar", per Silver Marches.
Then he declared his early kingdom to be the "Kingdom of Dark Arrows", presumably in honor of his former stronghold, Dark Arrow Keep.
But after the war drew to a stalemate, his own orcs took to referring to the kingdom after his own surname of "Many-Arrows". So, in a way, the orcs were naming their new nation after their leader--they were just choosing to focus on his last name, instead of his first.
As far as the name being belligerent, I would say that that is just further evidence that the orcs were not really interested in peace. That's just hocus pocus that the other leaders of the North made up out of whole cloth in order rationalize not retaliating, and to feel better about themselves. The multiple instances of violence perpetrated by the orcs over the last century go to show that the other North leaders' vision of peace wasn't really born out.
So the orcs pretty much lived up to their aggressive chosen name, after all. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 04:52:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why is it that when a group of (demi)humans invades an orc dwelling its called 'adventuring', and the locale is labeled 'a dungeon'.
But when Orcs do the same thing, they call it 'raiding' and the place is called 'a settlement'.
Double-standard, much?
The orcs have just been giving back what they've gotten for some 30 thousand years. Getting mad at Orcs for the way they behave is like getting angry with Native Americans for attacking settlers. When your way of life is threatened, and others have stolen your land, you have the right to fight back. They behave no differently then elves, or anyone else for that matter. In fact, orcs at least give you a fighting chance and attack you to your face. Elves just send a tidal wave or two to wipe-out entire cities of women and children. Give me an orc any day... at least their honest about their hatred.
That's the point you consistently fail to acknowledge: orcs have, repeatedly, attacked everyone and anyone simply because they could. It wasn't in self-defense, it wasn't because their homes or livelihoods were threatened, and it certainly wasn't doing what other races have done -- I've not heard of too many elf hordes sweeping out of the north and killing everything in site.
Orcs have killed without reason or provocation for millennia. A handful of adventurers here or elves defending themselves there is not the same thing, and it is not justification. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 05:14:36
|
Speaking of double-standards... Why all the concern over orcs?
There was a red dragon named Firebrand Flametongue that retired, decided to live in peace, and became friends with Elminster. Why is he not held up as an example of how all red dragons are misunderstood and oppressed?
Why is Large Luigi not held up as an example of how beholders really are peaceful, so long as you leave them alone?
Why is Estriss the illithid not cited as proof that his brain-eating kin aren't really all that bad?
Why do we not hold Liriel up as proof that drow are not murderous and backstabbing?
Why is Nojheim not held up as an example that goblins really are honorable sorts?
I am, quite frankly, getting sick of one or two isolated examples being cited as proof that the other million+ members of the same race really aren't as bad as their behavior and history indicates they are.
Especially when the counter-argument is to take the actions of the minority of another race and use that to malign the majority. One group of elves did something bad, so all elves are evil -- but all orcs doing something bad does not mean all orcs are evil. How is that not a double-standard? Why is it okay for (on the rare occasions it's happened) orcs to defend themselves, but other races can't? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jan 2014 05:18:47 |
|
|
|
Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 06:40:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Speaking of double-standards... Why all the concern over orcs?
There was a red dragon named Firebrand Flametongue that retired, decided to live in peace, and became friends with Elminster. Why is he not held up as an example of how all red dragons are misunderstood and oppressed?
Why is Large Luigi not held up as an example of how beholders really are peaceful, so long as you leave them alone?
Why is Estriss the illithid not cited as proof that his brain-eating kin aren't really all that bad?
Why do we not hold Liriel up as proof that drow are not murderous and backstabbing?
Why is Nojheim not held up as an example that goblins really are honorable sorts?
I am, quite frankly, getting sick of one or two isolated examples being cited as proof that the other million+ members of the same race really aren't as bad as their behavior and history indicates they are.
Especially when the counter-argument is to take the actions of the minority of another race and use that to malign the majority. One group of elves did something bad, so all elves are evil -- but all orcs doing something bad does not mean all orcs are evil. How is that not a double-standard? Why is it okay for (on the rare occasions it's happened) orcs to defend themselves, but other races can't?
I agree that the orcs have earned the enmity against them, but elves should be put in the same category. They have caused more Toril shattering catastrophes than any other race, and they are by and large considered a "goodly" race. I'm not saying that elves are evil, but they have done enough to not be automatically trusted.
Also, I can't speak for others, but I have always had a problem with FR's presentation of orcs. They are a major race with their own pantheon, yet they get depicted as negative in every way possible. Orcs are rarely shown to be anything other than stupid, ugly, brutish, and short sighted. In any novel involving humans, drow, elves, or dwarves, orcs are fodder to be slaughtered by the dozens.
So my argument is less with orcs being intrinsically evil, and more with orcs being shown as bottom feeders. Consider drow, who are also evil, but get the exact opposite treatment. Drow are shown to be highly skilled warriors, powerful priestesses, and accomplished wizards. Drow are clever, beautiful, and sophisticated in every FR portrayal of them.
Even "monster" races like dragons, beholders, illithids, and devils are shown to be clever, intimidating, and fearsome. Orcs are treated like chumps. Anytime orcs show up, they are toothless villains who we know will be easily defeated. Until RAS created Obould, no orc NPC was ever an impressive figure in FR. |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 08:17:13
|
hmm lets see, there is the
crown wars:
the ilithiri or whatever they were known as that became the drow, wiped out the other dark elf citystate and its other unmentioned war crimes.
the sun elf house vyshaan of arymandaar started the crown wars, and its war crimes both noted and unmentioned.
the deep wars: well elts face it, this might have been started as a conflict for space.
the deep netheril incident: if high and low netheril were anything to go by, then deep netheril was arogantly to preoccupied to even realize that they were setting themselves up to be wiped out, or they though themselves all superior with their artcraft and went along their merry way with their actions and got screwed over it.
the jhaamdaath incident: jhaamdath was like nazi germany, bent on becoming an empire and was not above genocide themselves, it would have colapsed onitself anyway, but then after the crown wars, most elves likely would not want another long lasting war, and with all the slaughtered elves by jhaamdaath ( sorry if its mispelled, okay not really that sorry) , the elven king okay-ed the use of high magic to end a conflict not of their choosing.
the evermeet sundering: ego, nothing but ego here.
lets see what else, well they are no better and no worst than any other race in hte fr for its list of war crimes.
its evil enough when good( insert race here) doesnt do anything....
as for the orcs, if they were molded after jrr tolkien's orcs then that would be why they are often used as the bad guy and nothing but brute force using uncivilized species.
Obould knew what he was doing, but then he too couldnt be sure of what would come to pass after he went to Gruumsh's side.He was smarter than any orc should be and that is what it would have to take to make an orc kingdom.
|
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 11:03:35
|
| I do not think that the orc kingdom was a mistake. I may have been better explained, but the story opportunities it gives just outweight it. |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - 2008) |
|
|
|
Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 06:01:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I don't think that Gruumsh being CE is a valid justification for Orcs not having a nation. That kind of thinking is why most of the time people treat Chaotic Evil as if it really meant Chaotic Stupid.
Lolth is a CE deity too, and the Drow manage to have quite organized cities.
No, you're really missing the point. It's not about being Chaotic Evil, per se; it's about Gruumsh being a deity for whom his Alignment of Chaotic Evil is expressed in raw destructive power (don't forget that this is 4E also: Gruumsh has assumed/always was Talos so that rather emphasises how destructive he is). Lolth and Cyric are different. They're both still CE but that is expressed differently.
You're acting like Talos followers can't live in society either.
You guys are being way to strict with what being a follower of a deity means. Just because a deity has a certain dogma, that doesn't mean that their followers absolutely adhere to it 24 hous per day, not even their clerics are like that. And I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of Orcs aren't clerics.
Talos followers? Um, yeah they can live in society but those who have their powers granted by Talos are going to be a real danger to that society.
The overwhelming majority of orcs aren't clerics but literally all of them are orcs. They're chaotic evil at a gut level in a world where good, evil, law and chaos are all tangible, measurable things. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 04:34:42
|
| Orcs are just a product of their enviroment, give them a chance. They love making pottery to. |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 04:40:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Orcs are just a product of their enviroment, give them a chance. They love making pottery to.
yeah until you realize that they make their pots out of elf and dwarf parts...
|
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 11:35:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Talos followers? Um, yeah they can live in society but those who have their powers granted by Talos are going to be a real danger to that society.
The overwhelming majority of orcs aren't clerics but literally all of them are orcs. They're chaotic evil at a gut level in a world where good, evil, law and chaos are all tangible, measurable things.
And once again let me repeat that Chaotic Evil isn't the same thing as Chaotic Stupid. Being of a chaotic alignment doesn't prevent you from being capable of living in society. Or at least people never have a problem with CG and CN characters being a part of society. Once your CE though, you have to be a bumbling idiot that attacks everything in sight apparently. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 05 Jan 2014 11:35:52 |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 17:16:22
|
From what I always understood, orc hordes are formed when population pressures and thousands of starving orcs are sent south to seize what they can. Orcs supposedly enjoy the killing, pillaging, and burning down of settlements. But what happens when you take that "starving" catalyst away from them? Provided their current territory actually feeds them. Life would be good for them, relatively speaking.
The orc holds in the Spine of the World would still be churning out starving masses that probably don't partake in the Kingdom of Many Arrows. Wouldn't you think the greatest threat to Obould's kingdom would be another orc horde?
I always liked semi civilized orcs. Sure there should be plenty of savage bands that only know how to raid. But I imagine any group that occupies an old dwarven hold has probably figured out how to forge crude but thick plated armor and some form of weapon, even if it's only a sharpened chunk of metal. Orcs may not have much in racial technology but I can certainly see them "scavenging" other races way of doing things.
I think it's a real interesting question of seeing what they do with their kingdom. They haven't had one since what? Uruth Ukrypt in Kryptgarden Forest? I imagine in time it will simply implode or go up in flames. |
|
|
|
Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 17:34:47
|
Well, Eilserus, if the starving part is taken out... they will simply make more orcs, until they get it back. Then, bigger hordes!
I actually kind of like that idea. ^_^ |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 19:13:57
|
That is a good point. Wouldn't a good food source eventually turn Many Arrows into a super orc horde? Something would have to be in place to keep that from happening (dragons, other orc tribes, monsters etc) and check their numbers or maybe they are still in the build up process.
Many Arrows is a keg of smoke powder just waiting to go off. hehehe |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 22:12:16
|
The Orcs in the east get along fine with their neighbors, and are even WELCOME in human settlements (and considered heroes of the Horde war!) One can say that those are grey orcs, but that particualr group originated in Zhentil keep (and we should consider the 'civilizing' factor evil nations have on them, which would incude Thay, etc), which makes them GREEN (Mountain) Orcs. Grey Orcs may be more 'civilized', but that just makes them even more dangerous (because they understand modern techniques, like strategy and tactics).
There are several towns in the Empires of the Sands with large half-orc populations - presumably the intermixing has been going on for centuries, and no-one is bothered by it in the least. Only in The North do we find the rampant anti-Orc sentiment, which is probably a hold-over from the Netherese days. Orcs give what they get, as simple as that. In the words of my favorite FR Orc, General Vraak, "if you treat us like monsters, then we BE monsters!"
Look through the old Elminster's Ecologies on The Stonelands. Orcs not only mine, but they fashion fairly decent weapons and armor, and even trade that stuff with others (mostly other humanoids, but humans as well, which means their merchandise is perfectly serviceable).
Orcs get a bad rap in The North, for doing nothing more thgen the Uthgardt barabraians do... whom they also interbreed with freely, BTW. Seems barabarian humans have no problem with Orcs.
Oh... and the Orcs of the High Forest have a 'detente' with the Elves there - apparently they can even get along with fey (not friendly, but at least they respect each other's territory and leave each other alone). Turlang has the resources to chase them out and does not - could it be that nature-minded beings understand that Orcs are part of the circle of life?
Its high time D&D stepped away from its (now out-dated) Tolkienesque mindset and entered the 21st century. Orcs are PEOPLE, weather anyone likes it or not.
Elves, on the other hand, are monsters. EG himself said so in The Annotated Elminster.* We simply cannot exterminate them fast-enough. They are an ecological disaster just waiting to happen.
*And YES, I am taking that out-of-context, but its still what he said. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2014 22:18:00 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 23:01:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There are several towns in the Empires of the Sands with large half-orc populations - presumably the intermixing has been going on for centuries, and no-one is bothered by it in the least. Only in The North do we find the rampant anti-Orc sentiment, which is probably a hold-over from the Netherese days. Orcs give what they get, as simple as that. In the words of my favorite FR Orc, General Vraak, "if you treat us like monsters, then we BE monsters!"
Ah, so orcs in the North rampage and kill everyone in sight because other races do it to them! Oh, wait, why isn't that in any of the books?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Orcs get a bad rap in The North, for doing nothing more thgen the Uthgardt barabraians do... whom they also interbreed with freely, BTW. Seems barabarian humans have no problem with Orcs.
So where in the history of the North do we have Uthgardt barbarians forming huge hordes and killing everyone in sight?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh... and the Orcs of the High Forest have a 'detente' with the Elves there - apparently they can even get along with fey (not friendly, but at least they respect each other's territory and leave each other alone). Turlang has the resources to chase them out and does not - could it be that nature-minded beings understand that Orcs are part of the circle of life?
Or could it be that Turlang really doesn't have those resources? Or maybe he thinks he's got more pressing concerns...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its high time D&D stepped away from its (now out-dated) Tolkienesque mindset and entered the 21st century. Orcs are PEOPLE, weather anyone likes it or not.
So are elves. You are quite unwilling to give them the same overly generous chances you're willing to give orcs. An elf kills someone in self-defense, you call it proof elves are evil. An orc murders someone because he can, you say they're misunderstood.
Orcs are people, free to make their own choices. And the orcs of the North generally choose not to get along with anyone, not to adopt civilization, and to kill anyone they can simply for being there. Why is this so difficult to understand?
I think it's high time you quit holding orcs to different standards than other races, and look at their actual history. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 23:31:15
|
| I don't, everyone else does. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 23:31:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Talos followers? Um, yeah they can live in society but those who have their powers granted by Talos are going to be a real danger to that society.
The overwhelming majority of orcs aren't clerics but literally all of them are orcs. They're chaotic evil at a gut level in a world where good, evil, law and chaos are all tangible, measurable things.
And once again let me repeat that Chaotic Evil isn't the same thing as Chaotic Stupid. Being of a chaotic alignment doesn't prevent you from being capable of living in society. Or at least people never have a problem with CG and CN characters being a part of society. Once your CE though, you have to be a bumbling idiot that attacks everything in sight apparently.
Do my posts say that?
Of course they do not. How am I suppose to engage with you honestly when your automatic response to someone not agreeing with you is 1. "Oh, that's just (dismissively) chaotic stupid" and 2. "Even though you didn't say this, this is what you said."
My point was/is, orcs are destructive by nature. Their deity is destructive by nature. That deity's fundamental ethos is destruction (seriously, read the initial bit on Gruumsh by Roger E Moore). Their traditional culture is one of destruction. (Orc hordes. Read about them.) Every reference to orcs in a D&D or FR sense emphasises all of these points.
Now, if Gruumsh suddenly decides that it's OK for his orcs to stop reflecting his fundamental nature and live in peace with the Silver Marches and in a semi-civilised state, it would make sense that that be explained because it is so contrary to everything that orcs have always stood for.
That's not chaotic stupid - or may be it is: but that's your phrase, not mine - but it is pointing out the existing lore and how RAS has gone against it. I don't care if he does or doesn't, but in the context of this thread I think it's worth an explanation as to why this has happened. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 23:48:48
|
Any chance the level of aggressiveness that infecting the latest posts can be toned down? It'd be nice if some of the smarter points people have made were recognized by their fellow scribes, too.
To that end: Markus, thanks for the summary information about orcs. Best post on page 3 of this scroll, by far. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 01:32:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
That is a good point. Wouldn't a good food source eventually turn Many Arrows into a super orc horde? Something would have to be in place to keep that from happening (dragons, other orc tribes, monsters etc) and check their numbers or maybe they are still in the build up process.
Many Arrows is a keg of smoke powder just waiting to go off. hehehe
What would probably happen is something similar to the real world where orc families would start to become smaller with their life expectancy increasing.
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Talos followers? Um, yeah they can live in society but those who have their powers granted by Talos are going to be a real danger to that society.
The overwhelming majority of orcs aren't clerics but literally all of them are orcs. They're chaotic evil at a gut level in a world where good, evil, law and chaos are all tangible, measurable things.
And once again let me repeat that Chaotic Evil isn't the same thing as Chaotic Stupid. Being of a chaotic alignment doesn't prevent you from being capable of living in society. Or at least people never have a problem with CG and CN characters being a part of society. Once your CE though, you have to be a bumbling idiot that attacks everything in sight apparently.
Do my posts say that?
Of course they do not. How am I suppose to engage with you honestly when your automatic response to someone not agreeing with you is 1. "Oh, that's just (dismissively) chaotic stupid" and 2. "Even though you didn't say this, this is what you said."
My point was/is, orcs are destructive by nature. Their deity is destructive by nature. That deity's fundamental ethos is destruction (seriously, read the initial bit on Gruumsh by Roger E Moore). Their traditional culture is one of destruction. (Orc hordes. Read about them.) Every reference to orcs in a D&D or FR sense emphasises all of these points.
Now, if Gruumsh suddenly decides that it's OK for his orcs to stop reflecting his fundamental nature and live in peace with the Silver Marches and in a semi-civilised state, it would make sense that that be explained because it is so contrary to everything that orcs have always stood for.
That's not chaotic stupid - or may be it is: but that's your phrase, not mine - but it is pointing out the existing lore and how RAS has gone against it. I don't care if he does or doesn't, but in the context of this thread I think it's worth an explanation as to why this has happened.
It's actually exactly what you said but with other words.
You keep on going that Gruumsh is destruction yet followers of other gods with similar dogmas manage to live in society.
You say that it's strange for Gruumsh to want an Orc kingdom, yet there are several other CE gods that have their followers make kingdoms and strongholds.
Because the orcs are CE they cannot live in society (even though other CE creatures can) and have to attack everything in sight.
You completely dodge the issue that apparently only CE creatures can't live in society while CN and CG creatures apparently don't suffer from those problems, most likely because you don't want to address this.
I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of your arguments. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 04:50:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't, everyone else does.
You don't hold orcs to different standard? You have said elves were evil for defending themselves when attacked by others, but you ignore orcs going out of their way to attack people just because they are there. If that's not holding orcs to a different -- and far more generous -- standard, then I don't know what is. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
was many arrows a narrative mistake?
