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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

728 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  20:30:19  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Eltheron, xaeyruudh (in the thread he created) has put what Ed said to me very well: Sune is about ALL love, including murderous passion, the sort of tragic misunderstandings that Shakespeare's Hamlet and Othello both turn on, and obsession/stalking, not just the light and pleasant bits. The light and pleasant bits are what her priests concentrate on publicly, for obvious reasons of making the faith welcoming to all. Ed also added that everything was chaotic and on the gods' part desperate (hence all the "everyone has huge hosts of Chosen" stuff) in a last-minute struggle for power, during the Sundering, so many over-the-line uncharacteristic things were done and attempted.
(And on a personal note, I think if Ed has been writing THE SENTINEL, you'd never have seen such scenes or plot threads on the page.)


THO, thanks for the additional discussion on this. But just so that I am 100% clear in my understanding on this, does the goddess Sune include rape as something she condones, even encourages in some cases? By including "murderous passion" above, I get the sense you're suggesting something along those lines.

In the real (modern) world, we certainly draw a distinction between rape and love. In the past, such violence toward women (when motivated by a man's desire, obsession and lust) wasn't always deemed rape. And many pagan goddesses also have rape stories, as we know. Yet even back then, in mythical stories, women and goddesses didn't like to be raped or otherwise brutally attacked by the obsessive or lust-consumed. From their perspective, such things were not an experience of love, and often were cause for reprisal or revenge. For genuine love to exist, I always took the stance that two people (or more, depending on circumstances) had mutual feelings. Or is it only necessary for the aggressor to have the emotion(s) as far as the goddess Sune is concerned?

Also, I'll grant that Arietta's rape wasn't particularly violent, and it was off-page with a good deal of subsequent confusion on Arietta's part. But Joelle did use her enhanced magical charm on Arietta in order to remove her free will and change her emotional state. So while it appears somewhat passive, Joelle invasively took magical control to make the encounter happen, with the purpose of getting Arietta to later commit suicide for her.

Perhaps Sune did condone and even prompt Joelle to do this. If so, this dramatically alters my entire perception of Sune.

The problem I'm having here is that Sune has always been portrayed as a "Chaotic Good" goddess, and (as you note) her priests and the sourcebooks have never ever explored a "dark" side to Sune. At least, not so far as I'm aware. I'm not sure that obsessive and violent lust, murderous passion, magically-coerced sexual encounters, or Sune's clear demand for a suicidal sacrifice ("for love") can ever be squared well with Sune being Chaotic Good.

Or can they?

Or is Sune no longer Chaotic Good?


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 24 Apr 2014 20:44:34
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  22:07:20  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Re. this: "Or is it only necessary for the aggressor to have the emotion(s) as far as the goddess Sune is concerned?"
I'm thinking this is something mortals in the Realms can never know, for certain. Or in other words, it's part of the roleplaying room for every DM and set of players to operate in.

I'm not even sure that Ed or THO suggested that Sune condones rape. I understand Eltheron got that sense, but not necessarily that the sense was there to be got.
Hmmm.
Shouldn't this be something you should ask Troy Denning, Eltheron, not Ed?
BB
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1356 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2014 :  23:24:49  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message
I didn't get that impression from the novel at all myself and there's no way that was the author's or Wizard's intent. It never would have been published if that was the case.

Edited by - Eilserus on 24 Apr 2014 23:32:55
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

728 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2014 :  17:02:24  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

Re. this: "Or is it only necessary for the aggressor to have the emotion(s) as far as the goddess Sune is concerned?"
I'm thinking this is something mortals in the Realms can never know, for certain. Or in other words, it's part of the roleplaying room for every DM and set of players to operate in.

Perhaps. But the main issue is that this situation dramatically alters the way I see Sune. Is she Chaotic Good as written, or does this "darker" acceptance really make Sune more Chaotic Neutral?

quote:
I'm not even sure that Ed or THO suggested that Sune condones rape. I understand Eltheron got that sense, but not necessarily that the sense was there to be got.

Actually, I'm asking for clarification, precisely because it's not clear what was meant.

quote:
Hmmm.
Shouldn't this be something you should ask Troy Denning, Eltheron, not Ed?
BB


Although this came about because of Denning's book, it significantly colors the deeper nature of the way I perceive this goddess - and truly, it might reshape how I perceive all the Realms gods.

I see this as a general question, which Ed can answer because he created Sune for the Realms and knows more about her than probably any author.

Also, I don't see a question forum for Denning. If there is one, or a method to send him questions directly, please send me that contact or forum thread information. I'd appreciate his take on this situation as well.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 25 Apr 2014 17:25:02
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

728 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2014 :  17:22:21  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

I didn't get that impression from the novel at all myself and there's no way that was the author's or Wizard's intent. It never would have been published if that was the case.


I can absolutely understand why many people didn't get the impression of "this was a rape" when it comes to Arietta and Joelle's interaction.

It didn't have any overtly violent characteristics.
It involved two people who were at least nominally friends.

However, it also involved an enhanced magical charm and had the final end-goal of getting Arietta to commit suicide for Joelle. It also specifically pointed out Arietta's confusion after the sexual encounter, not being entirely clear about her own feelings or what to really do with them. We may never know what Arietta would have done or felt had the powerful magical charm not been in operation.

I'm compelled to point out that many women who are comfortable enough around a male friend such that they drink a lot of alcohol and end up being compelled or outright forced into having sex (while not fully in control or able to give consent) have actually been raped. The fact that the aggressor here was female makes no difference.

With an exceptionally powerful magical charm that quite literally changes the nature of your primary emotions, this actually seems much worse than an alcohol-fueled disinhibition.

So while I do understand why many would probably not see this as a rape, it clearly was rape. Invasive magical control led to a sexual encounter that probably would never have happened otherwise, and Joelle's end-goal was to push someone into committing suicide. Whether the author or WotC intended it, this is now part of Realms canon and part of Realms lore for the goddess Sune.

Importantly, though, I'd like to suggest that further general discussion of this specific issue be moved to the novels thread (and there is a thread there where I first brought this up) or people can start their own new threads in General Discussion. Ed's Q&A thread is probably better served by asking general Realms questions rather than continuing this discussion here as a tangent.



"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 25 Apr 2014 18:33:38
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Vaeloric Dehmarghast
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  05:50:48  Show Profile  Visit Vaeloric Dehmarghast's Homepage Send Vaeloric Dehmarghast a Private Message
Hello Ed, THO. I was wondering if there has been anything written on taxes for businesses in the cities of Faerun, how one would go about buying real estate in say Waterdeep, what laws and legislation would apply. Basically anything on what is needed for a retiring adventurer (apart from wealth) to engage in a more 'respectable' line of work? Apologies if this has already been asked. Also would like to know which cities enforce restrictions on travel through the use of travelling papers, if any?
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5346 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  10:16:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
Interesting topic Vaeloric.... Ed, along the lines of his same topic... are there any countries in Faerun which would say prohibit non-citizens from owning property? I'm betting the answer is no, as citizenship is harder to track in the realms, but smaller countries might do this to inhibit outside influence (say Halruaa where the towns are all notedly small).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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MagniThorson
Seeker

20 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  12:41:25  Show Profile Send MagniThorson a Private Message
To Ed or THO,

How often does a family or person rise to the station of Noble in Waterdeep? Is it something that should be considered very rare and the known families mostly unchanging? For those who elevate themselves to Noble status in Waterdeep, what is the most usual catalyst? It they weren't related to a Noble family, how is that they are recognized?

Thanks,

MT

Edited by - MagniThorson on 26 Apr 2014 12:43:15
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  13:44:50  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message
@Magni: Before the Spellplague rising to Waterdeep's nobility was a rare (and arduous) endeavor. After the SP hit, however, noble titles were allowed to be purchased outright...so it's more common now. I'm hoping they return to the 'old ways' with the 5e version of the setting.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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MagniThorson
Seeker

20 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  14:58:04  Show Profile Send MagniThorson a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

@Magni: Before the Spellplague rising to Waterdeep's nobility was a rare (and arduous) endeavor. After the SP hit, however, noble titles were allowed to be purchased outright...so it's more common now. I'm hoping they return to the 'old ways' with the 5e version of the setting.



Thank you. I haven't read any of the SP and latter novels and don't any 4E products but I would like the former ways also.

Edited by - MagniThorson on 26 Apr 2014 14:58:49
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MagniThorson
Seeker

20 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  18:35:53  Show Profile Send MagniThorson a Private Message
To Ed,

How involved were you the Double Diamond Triangle Saga other than Mercenaries and the Diamond? How did you feel about the characterizations of the people in them? Were they pretty close to the way you envision them?

Thanks,

MT
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  20:00:21  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Two swift things from Ed: MagniThorson, Ed wasn't involved in the Double Diamond saga AT ALL other than those two books. I await his answer to the second question you pose in that post.
And re. the Sentinel's rape? scene: Ed won't comment further until he's read it.

To Vaeloric Dehmarghast, re. this: "Hello Ed, THO. I was wondering if there has been anything written on taxes for businesses in the cities of Faerun, how one would go about buying real estate in say Waterdeep, what laws and legislation would apply. Basically anything on what is needed for a retiring adventurer (apart from wealth) to engage in a more 'respectable' line of work? Apologies if this has already been asked. Also would like to know which cities enforce restrictions on travel through the use of travelling papers, if any?"

Ed replies: oh, yes, I've written about taxes (try "The Rise And Fall Of The Window Tax" on the Wizards website, among other things). Anyone can buy and own land in Waterdeep (there's no residency requirement), and except in times of war or for out-and-out "monsters" (orcs and drow are NOT considered out-and-out monsters, these days) no one there or in most cities will require travelling papers or deny entry: Waterdeep is a highly tolerant crossroads trading city, and has been for centuries.

And to sleyvas, re. this: "Interesting topic Vaeloric.... Ed, along the lines of this same topic... are there any countries in Faerun which would say prohibit non-citizens from owning property? I'm betting the answer is no, as citizenship is harder to track in the realms, but smaller countries might do this to inhibit outside influence (say Halruaa where the towns are all notedly small)."

Ed replies: Not that I know of, except perhaps Rashemen, but there are some cities (and city-states) that require citizenship or on-site residency that do, for "within-the-walls" urban buildings (in Chessenta, Tsurlagol, and Telflamm). Even in those cases, however, that doesn't mean the owner must reside on each specific property; there are landlords that live in one place in the city and own rental properties elsewhere in the city.
Note: I said "perhaps" above because it depends on a DM, being as we've hinted at property ownership restrictions but not explicitly stated it in print, yet.

. . . And that's it from Ed, for now.
love to all,
THO

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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  20:11:58  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Oh, and one addition from me:
MagniThorson, The Arcanamach has the right of it. It was once VERY hard to get a new family into the nobility (individuals could manage it by marrying into an existing noble family), but the Rosemary Jones novel in the "Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep" series shows us the purchasing of titles becoming rife. However, the backlash is coming, hard and fast, to take things back to "the way they were." (Forthcoming instalments in the published Realms, Ed tells me, will let us all know how this goes.)
love,
THO
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5346 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  21:43:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, all.
Two swift things from Ed: MagniThorson, Ed wasn't involved in the Double Diamond saga AT ALL other than those two books. I await his answer to the second question you pose in that post.
And re. the Sentinel's rape? scene: Ed won't comment further until he's read it.

To Vaeloric Dehmarghast, re. this: "Hello Ed, THO. I was wondering if there has been anything written on taxes for businesses in the cities of Faerun, how one would go about buying real estate in say Waterdeep, what laws and legislation would apply. Basically anything on what is needed for a retiring adventurer (apart from wealth) to engage in a more 'respectable' line of work? Apologies if this has already been asked. Also would like to know which cities enforce restrictions on travel through the use of travelling papers, if any?"

Ed replies: oh, yes, I've written about taxes (try "The Rise And Fall Of The Window Tax" on the Wizards website, among other things). Anyone can buy and own land in Waterdeep (there's no residency requirement), and except in times of war or for out-and-out "monsters" (orcs and drow are NOT considered out-and-out monsters, these days) no one there or in most cities will require travelling papers or deny entry: Waterdeep is a highly tolerant crossroads trading city, and has been for centuries.

And to sleyvas, re. this: "Interesting topic Vaeloric.... Ed, along the lines of this same topic... are there any countries in Faerun which would say prohibit non-citizens from owning property? I'm betting the answer is no, as citizenship is harder to track in the realms, but smaller countries might do this to inhibit outside influence (say Halruaa where the towns are all notedly small)."

Ed replies: Not that I know of, except perhaps Rashemen, but there are some cities (and city-states) that require citizenship or on-site residency that do, for "within-the-walls" urban buildings (in Chessenta, Tsurlagol, and Telflamm). Even in those cases, however, that doesn't mean the owner must reside on each specific property; there are landlords that live in one place in the city and own rental properties elsewhere in the city.
Note: I said "perhaps" above because it depends on a DM, being as we've hinted at property ownership restrictions but not explicitly stated it in print, yet.

. . . And that's it from Ed, for now.
love to all,
THO





Thanks. You know, I hadn't really pondered the question before, but yeah, it would absolutely make sense that Rashemen would be strict on property ownership for outsiders (probably societal rather than governmental pressures would inhibit Rashemi from selling their land to non-Rashemi). I also like the add-on that "within the walls" portions of countries might not want non-citizens in certain areas (say close to the capitol buildings, etc...).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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MagniThorson
Seeker

20 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2014 :  23:58:41  Show Profile Send MagniThorson a Private Message
THO,

Thanks for the answers. I am glad to hear that going forward there will be a stable cast of Noble families. I think it adds an element to campaigning for a noble aspirant to have to seek more than fortune to become one of heralded few.

I actually just read through the Double Diamond books again and knew Ed wrote the 3 & 9 but didn't know if he had some kind of editorial oversight on the plot and characters. I remember at the time of publication thinking that it was an interesting concept. It struck me as written to a younger audience than that the normal FR novel reader. I imagine the structure and length had to have a somewhat limiting effect for the writers.

Thanks and I look forward to Ed's answer.

MT

Edited by - MagniThorson on 27 Apr 2014 03:31:49
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scuda
Seeker

24 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2014 :  00:43:34  Show Profile Send scuda a Private Message
I think maybe my question was overlooked...or, unaswerable?

Hello,
I'm looking to find the entire speech—if it exists—of Fzoul Chembryl, as quoted from the novel Elminster's Daughter:

THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE LURE

I put out my hand, and the fish swam right into my net-as they always do. It's all in the brightness of the lure you offer.

Fzoul Chembryl, High Lord of the Zhentarim, Conquering What I Want of the World: Words For All the Brethren to Live By (text of speech, circulated amongst the Zhentarim) Year of the Unstrung Harp




Can anyone advise or point me to a source? Thank you in advance.
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Vaeloric Dehmarghast
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2014 :  02:17:17  Show Profile  Visit Vaeloric Dehmarghast's Homepage Send Vaeloric Dehmarghast a Private Message
Thank you Ed and THO for your reply, your input and involvement with the realms community all this time is greatly appreciated.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1807 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2014 :  03:28:59  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by scuda

I think maybe my question was overlooked...or, unaswerable?


quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

scuda, I'm not sure if the full text is NDA or not. I'll ask Ed...


For future reference scuda, no question in this thread is overlooked. Some are unanswerable, but more often it just takes a while for Ed to get around to properly answering certain questions. You would not believe the workload he's under. He and THO have been very generous over the last 10 years, in sharing what little free time they have with us. We must be patient and respectful.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2014 :  17:57:54  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message
Tantam All

A question if I may about where Monarchs of Cormyr are buried?

I am assuming that most of them are placed in the royal crypts, but are there any bodies buried elsewhere in other cities? or has there ever been 'political conflicts' between cities in Cormyr wanting their King/Queen buried in their city ("King / Queen X was born in Arabel and so should be buried here and not in Suzail")

Of course if there are other bodies buried elsewhere for 'other reasons' can Ed hint at any of them?

Kind regards

Damian

So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
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paladinnicolas
Learned Scribe

84 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2014 :  21:00:46  Show Profile Send paladinnicolas a Private Message
As a Latin American I would like to ask Ed if he has ever used the land of Maztica (and neighboring lands) in his Forgotten Realms games; and if after the Sundering it may return. Thanks!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29892 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2014 :  05:01:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by paladinnicolas

As a Latin American I would like to ask Ed if he has ever used the land of Maztica (and neighboring lands) in his Forgotten Realms games; and if after the Sundering it may return. Thanks!



I think the latter will be covered by an NDA.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2014 :  08:17:46  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by paladinnicolas

As a Latin American I would like to ask Ed if he has ever used the land of Maztica (and neighboring lands) in his Forgotten Realms games; ...
You mean, like Anchorome, perhaps?

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scuda
Seeker

24 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2014 :  14:38:56  Show Profile Send scuda a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

quote:
Originally posted by scuda

I think maybe my question was overlooked...or, unaswerable?


quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

scuda, I'm not sure if the full text is NDA or not. I'll ask Ed...


For future reference scuda, no question in this thread is overlooked. Some are unanswerable, but more often it just takes a while for Ed to get around to properly answering certain questions. You would not believe the workload he's under. He and THO have been very generous over the last 10 years, in sharing what little free time they have with us. We must be patient and respectful.



Thank you. It is easy to patiently wait, when you know someone saw the question. Cheers.
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paladinnicolas
Learned Scribe

84 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2014 :  14:56:30  Show Profile Send paladinnicolas a Private Message
Well, about Anchorome I am aware of Ed having mentioning it in products he has worked on (as Murder in Baldur's Gate), so was thinking more of Maztica, Lapongo and Katashaka, i.e. those places with more Native American feel.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2014 :  19:42:46  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all.
crazed venturers, in partial answer to you most recent query (Ed will, of course, have to give the definitive one): "A question if I may about where Monarchs of Cormyr are buried? I am assuming that most of them are placed in the royal crypts, but are there any bodies buried elsewhere in other cities? or has there ever been 'political conflicts' between cities in Cormyr wanting their King/Queen buried in their city ("King / Queen X was born in Arabel and so should be buried here and not in Suzail") Of course if there are other bodies buried elsewhere for 'other reasons' can Ed hint at any of them?"
. . . here's what I can glean, Damian, from my notes of what Ed's said, over the years:

The great majority of Cormyr's monarchs are buried in the royal crypts, but at least one is buried in Marsember, and several have empty coffins in the crypts, because their bodies have never been found. I'm not aware of any "tussles over where a monarch 'should' be buried," but that's just me.
love,
THO
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