Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Thar
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe

496 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 :  12:42:36  Show Profile Send Jakuta Khan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That answers my questions perfectly well I think. That explains the term "Beastmen" as the goatfolk are then seemingly just one form of their creations
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 :  13:04:14  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mutations and combined creatures seems to be a common occurence in the lands around the Moonsea.

Maybe Hargut had been active in the area for quite a long time before his banishment or imprisonment beneath Ironfang Keep that Haask sought to reverse.


Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 :  16:09:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I connect 'Goatmen' to Runequest, not WH.

Not really loving that reference to the Ibixian in that manner - it means no-one can ever use them for anything else.

Ancient depictions of Fomorians often have them with goat-heads, unlike the 'melted' look D&D gave them. Considering the high occurrence of Fey in that region, you could possibly connect that as well. Interestingly, whilst looking for a good illustration of that, I came across THIS, which is a minotaur, but apparently part of a 'Fomorian army' for that game. Might be worth looking into and borrowing from.

EDIT: Thinking further on all of that...
Awhile back I had concluded that there are (at least) two 'tiers' in giantdom, one planer, and one terrestrial (Prime Material). We have examples of greater and lesser Titans, Cyclops, and Fomorians, and folklore regarding some others (Frost and Fire) would make them appear to be on-par with gods, even.

So what if the modern (Torillian) Fomorians are descendents of the ancient planer ones, but mixed with all that 'beastman' blood? That fomorians living on the material plane are all misshapen cross-breeds? That would also help expalin why they are so different from setting-to-setting. The ancient 'Fomorian kings' were more like archfey, and they use their 'seed' to empower their minions (much as dragons do, come to think of it).

So instead of Ibixian being some form of human/goat crossbreed, or even an empowered Saytr (like those WoW ones), what if they are the result of (greater) Fomorians mixing with humans, elves, etc? Or they could even be the result of Fomorians mixing with Saytrs (although I like to think the horns may have come from the Fomorians - I have to check the 4e sources to see what they did with them).

EDIT2: Okay, just checked - the 4e ones are just bigger versions of the melted ones {sigh}. Opportunity missed, and all that. I find it interesting that Fomorians are not listed with the other giants - they have their own entry (which should signify that the 4e designers hadn't considered them part of the 'giants' group, I guess for mechanical purposes). What I found even more interesting is that 4e did indeed create TWO TIERS of each giant - a 'normal' version, and then the 'titan' version. The more I look into 4e lore, the more I realize its very similar to my own homebrew. Not sure how I feel about that......

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Apr 2014 23:05:08
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 :  16:36:19  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh dear, i dread that day coming. If i ever create anything that resembles 4e i shall have to perform a self lobotomy just to make sure the idea never infects the real world.

That being said, im sure its just a coincidence Markus.

Although i never did fancy the idea of unnecessary complexity. I prefer to just rewrite giant history so they only exist once (and to get the date of Ulutiu's death right -25500 DR not -2550 DR)

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe

496 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 :  17:08:26  Show Profile Send Jakuta Khan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@markustay:
Goatmen i totally agree, they were the "bruu" in runequest, right?

For me the beastmen are basically human bodies covered in fur eventually with hooves and sporting different animal heads.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 :  18:56:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it was spelled 'Broo', but yeah, I always liked those guys. I loved old runequest lore and creatures, and how all 'creatures of chaos' got one (or more) chaotic ability. Come to think of it, Runequest invented 'Spellscarred' long before AD&D ever came around (except it was 'marked by chaos', but the same idea).

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Oh dear, i dread that day coming. If i ever create anything that resembles 4e i shall have to perform a self lobotomy just to make sure the idea never infects the real world.

That being said, im sure its just a coincidence Markus.

Actually, going by stuff I've been hearing elsewhere (from people who actually enjoy 4e), a lot of its problem was with presentation, which I always surmised. When I read particular bits of 4e lore, I'm like, "thats not so bad", but the way its just shoveled at us, with different terminology (Eladrin) and with little to no connection to past lore, it all became very jarring. Had things been done differently (a kinder, gentler approach, rather the 'the sledgehammer of doom' we got), things might have gone very differently with us and 4e.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Although I never did fancy the idea of unnecessary complexity. I prefer to just rewrite giant history so they only exist once (and to get the date of Ulutiu's death right -25500 DR not -2550 DR)
Yeah, the giant lore is pretty bad, as-is. It needs a complete overhaul. Perhaps this time they can get someone to write FR stuff that isn't just writing something about their personal homebrew, and then forcing it into FR without absolutely any knowledge of FR or its glorious past?

And why is that man writing a Sundering novel?

5eFR is the perfect opportunity to get rid of all the crap that didn't belong in FR in the first place. By leaving it all in, whether it be 1e, 2e, 3e, or 4e, they are just compounding all the errors. I want a clean slate, not a dirty one.

And the giant-lore is the first place they need to start - its a confusing mess. We need some details about the Dragon/Giant wars, and how the elves and dwarves tie-into all that. I actually like some of RAS's ideas regarding the giants - too bad he doesn't do design work anymore. Then again, the giants would all be named something like Shnampfoozle or some-such.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2014 18:57:45
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 :  20:48:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure if I missed it earlier in the thread, but you guys are aware of the article on Thar by Rich Baker, correct?

I am only thinking about this now because I am currently re-reading the article myself (more map-stuff).

I had forgotten that 4e turned Ogre Magi into the Wang-Liang (K-T MM) - a type of tiefling Ogre - which makes perfect sense. In fact, I had done just that in the old K-T thread over at WotC, before 4e was even announced. I wonder what Oni were doing that far west? I guess demons will be demons, after all. Also, IIRC, Flinds are fiend-augmented gnolls (probably Rakshasa blood), so it seems fiends have had a long history in this region.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 :  21:17:19  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah I mined that article first, then moved onto the elminsters ecologies, then found the Maram article in dragon and then tried to put it all together.

Cant say I'm fond of any of the 4e creature lore, they just mush stuff up without any rhyme or reason from what I can see

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 :  22:11:23  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What I mean is why does anything have to be anything else because of a new religion.

Why are elves now eladrin from another plane

Why are ogre magi now demons

Why are gods really other gods in disguise.


Ogres are ogres, ogre magi are like ogres but with spellcasting ability. There is no need to mess with thing unnecessarily.


That being said, ogres consorting with demons to gain spellcasting ability kind of makes a bit of sense. But then isn't Vaprak a bit demonic?

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 :  02:06:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the Ogre-magi of D&D were based on the Orienatl Wang-Liang, which were Oni (demon) crossbreeds; its just that D&D hadn't bothered to play that aspect up until 4e.

In the Oriental material, they didn't have different types of giants, and in fact, it almost seems as if their one type of giant was more of larger, more advanced ogre (more like huge human savages then the typical bestial brute). Thus, if the Oni were breeding with them (they seem similar to the Icespire Ogres in some ways), it would make sense that they created a superior, magic-using ogre.

Think of it as 'new information learned' then an actual change, because unlike many other things (Eladrin), it makes perfect sense in retrospect.

Also, the Ulutiuns (of the Great Glacier) are actually a tribe of Issacortae (from northern K-T) that wandered across the top of the world and settled there, so it makes some sense that they brought their Oriental traditions (and monsters) with them.

I agree that a lot of the 4e material (and what we've seen of the D&Dnext material) has that 'kitchen sink' feel, like they just toss as much in as they can, just because they can. I think I understand the reasoning behind it (keep the players guessing/surprised, which = fun), but from a lore/fan-setting perspective, it looks a bit haphazard. Hopefully that will all work itself out by the time we see the new sourcebooks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2014 02:08:33
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 :  18:45:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may want to check-out the entry for Canlespiere in the Netheril box. Nothing drectly related to Thar, but interestingly, the Ogres had a settlement called Chanth there, which was 'very fertile ground'. Why would the ogres even care about that, unless they were fairly civilized and farmed?

It also took seven years{!) for the Netherese to finally defeat them... those were SOME Ogres! The text indicates that they had "several strongholds in the area". Couple that with the war on giants the Netherese was conducting, and we can see that the original Anauroch region was highly contested, and giant-kin had a fairly large presence in the area.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2014 18:45:42
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 :  18:59:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read that one but was more intrigued about the ogre magi named Storm that took on arcanists and survived. I immediately thought he is a candidate for an elder ogre and may well be Vorbyx

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2014 :  19:45:19  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well in light of Ed's latest Forging the Forgotten Realms article I think now is a time to speculate on the last Tharkul Halangarog.

So he headed south on a hunt. So first thing is first, where could he end up heading south.

So what deity did he meet and how far south did he get. Did he make it through Cormanthyr, if not then the deity may be Moander which has a presence in Cormanthyr.

Did he make it across the Sea of Fallen Stars to the lands south, in which case could it be Gargauth that he encountered.

What about Bane, he had lands concentrated around the Vilhon Reach region and the southern shores of the Sea of Fallen Stars.

Maybe I'm on completely the wrong track and it was a benevolent deity that he encountered.

Then again Halangarog took the Arroth with him and so maybe the deity he met was a giant deity that wanted to bring ogres back into the fold of giant society as honoured kindred.


Finally the legends about Halangorog mentioned that it was believed he fell into the underdark and encountered a great dragon as well as he will return when he is most needed. I like the idea of all three being true. What if Halangorog returned to Thar (as it says he did) but in disguise and he was abducted by Iyrauroth through that cleft beneath Lake Thentar who then used him as breeding stock for his spawn.

That way Halangorog could still exist and it supports my personal theory that Ologh had the blood of Vorbyx (which could have come from Halangorog) and Iyrauroth. Also there are a number of four armed beings that have appeared in the Moonsea area (Ghauntz I believe was the name of one in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep) so maybe they are all related to Halangorog (albeit distantly).

Oh and thankyou Ed for some awesome lore

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4887 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2014 :  23:59:26  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ghauntz (sp? - I don't have my sources at hand) was an orc and called the "Chosen of Bahgtru". But of course he could have been a half-orc/half-ogre.

As for heading south, getting to the Vilhon is a bit of a stretch in my book. I like the idea of Halangarog coming into the area around Yulash and encountering Moander, being transformed into an elf and being used to covertly act against the elves organising a concerted progrom against the ogres of Thar. Perhaps he took the guise of a wild elf who (true to his apparent nature) battled against effete "city" elves and manipulated others to create social and sub-racial rifts in Cormanthyr. This may have weakened the elves in the face of the impending Weeping War. Perhaps Moander knew what was coming with a bit of godly priescence and did everything he could to ensure that Cormanthyr was as ill-prepared for the conflict as possible.

Or maybe Halangarog just fell into a hole, broke his legs and was eated by animals.:)

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2014 :  09:38:32  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Ghauust was a giant four armed orc so that gives a clue to his ogre blood.

And Ologh was also an orc of giant proportions (hints of ogre blood).

I just think that someone is messing around with the genetics of orcs in the area, and i like the idea of Iyrauroth masterminding it all since he is mentioned a few times in history and in the Moonsea, Thar, Vast area.


As for Halangarog. It states he does meet a god and is granted a disguise and then he returns to Thar to influence the elders whereupon he disappears so it seems safe to assume he disappears in Thar and given the rumours that he fell into the underdark or was taken by a great dragon, and the bit in the history about a volcanic cleft in the lake which Iyrauroth exploited to destroy the ogre capital, why not have both be true and he was in Thar when Iyrauroth found him and abducted him (using the volcanic cleft beneath the lake).

I did love that article though, it doesnt conflict with many of my ideas and gives quite a lot more detail on Thar (which was sparse to begin with so it practically doubles available lore). I now the actual name of Bloodmuch Lake and a reason why it is red/brown (volcanic cleft). The true location of the capital and how it was destroyed.


Now if only Ed would write an article on Iyrauroth and we can discover if he was involved in the attack on Northkeep, and Ravensbluff, and Vastar and what his plans are. I bet he would make an awesome Wyrms of the East article.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2014 :  11:53:25  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cauldron of Monsters, yet another awesome piece of realmslore that fills in a crucial moment of Thar history i.e. when Thar was created in its current form.

So we have the creation of Thar between -356 DR and before 400 DR because Horreb, Barze and that barbarian culture occupied the land of Thar and the area was definitely not a wasteland then, and by 400 DR Iyrauroth was taking part in destroying Northkeep with his brood (score another point for one of my musings).

Further complete speculation to narrow it down somewhat more. The Quivering Forest was planted in 367 DR by the elves to mark the founding of Phlan. I speculate that this forest was actually planted to limit the growth of Thar and keep the human settlements of the Moonsea safe from the wasteland (which has been growing gradually)

Northkeep was also founded in 348 DR so it would make sense for Iyrauroth to be around since before its founding that way he would be more likely to take offence at the humans settling in his domain.

Now since Iyrauroth is Embrurshaille's sister it seems sensible that he inherited her perceived domain (kind of like human kings) at least in Iyrauroth's mind anyway.

Embrurshaille's perceived domain is between the Earthspur Mountains and the Galena Range to the Far Hills and the Orsraun Mountains. Of course Thauglorimorgorus and Venom cut down this domain to just the Moonsea but there is no reason he couldnt have warred with them over the borders.

Iyrauroth however would not fare so well against human kingdoms such as Netheril so it may also be sensible to have him arrive after the fall of Netheril. Also Embrurshaille's writeup states she began assembling many magic items to power her spell so if Netheril had already fallen when she began this spell she could collect her items from there.


Now i am thinking dating the event before -205 DR because it is in this year that Thauglorimorgorus lost his battle of honour for control of the Forest Kingdom, and since it mentions the Purple Dragon being one of her feared neighbours who she worked against he should still be in control of that area when she is around.

The problem with this however is that the article specifically mentions Thauglorimorgorus as the Purple Dragon of Cormyr which could be seen as pointing to Cormyr existing when Embrurshaille existed (26 DR onwards). Although it could also mean the narrator simply used the dragon's most common name so everyone would know.

If Thar was created after 26 DR, that leaves less than 400 years for the ogres to create a kingdom and lose it which isnt a problem in itself but other dates make it a problem.

For instance in -206 DR the real Venom was slain which would severely reduce competition in the area for Embrurshaille and so she could have expanded into Cormanthor but didnt which suggests she may have already been dead by then.

So how about year of the Impudent Kin (-280 DR) signifying Iyrauroth's return to steal all Embrurshaille's hoard. Or Year of the Empty Soul -220 DR to signify Embrurshaille's failed spell that does something unknown to her soul possibly joins it with the weave.


Looking forward to many more articles on Thar. Its such an interesting place.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2014 :  11:54:37  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am wondering if Iyrauroth didnt inherit an obsession with magical powers and magical items like his sister and i think he may even be trying to replicate the spell his sister failed to perform.

Using another of my musings about Iyrauroth and that he is searching for whatever artefact is under Ravens Bluff that saturates the area with magical energy.

He could use this artefact (which i think was from Uvaeren or part of the meteor that crashed into Uvaeren) to cast the spell his sister messed up. That way it would not run out of magic to drain and so would work as expected; although what the results could be i dont want to think about as i suspect it means all this magic would be infused into Iyrauroth making him possibly one of the most magically powerful beings on Toril

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2014 :  11:26:35  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And i have just read through the villains lorebook and came to a section about Tyranthraxus

quote:
Tyranthraxus is seemingly unique in the history of the Realms. How he came to be a disembodied entity, whether he's always existed in that form, and even the plane of existence that he calls home is unknown.


Then there is another quote which looks to be the first reference of him as a possessing spirit, not as his original form.

quote:
The first mention of the Possessing Spirit is from the ancient legends of the ogres of Thar.


So this peaked my interest in Tyranthraxus again and i went digging into the article about the Dark Three and the Moonsea

So first quote from that article

quote:
At this time there ruling the Twisted Ones was a powerful general named Tyranthraxus. He strode before his armies cloaked in flame and led the Riders out of the Waste. At his hand the kingdom of Barze was conquered. Turning south he led his army to conquer the Horreb and the Vane. Tyranthraxus was a cruel man and leveled all that he had taken, murdering the princes of these lands. But the flame that surrounded him consumed him, destroying his body. Freed of its shell, it flew among the men of his army, lighting on each and claiming it. It was then when Baron Schodt imprisoned Tyranthraxus in a vial of water which shone like the light of day. This he sank in the watery depths of Lake Longreach, thus defeating the armies Tyranthraxus had raised.


So we have a reference to him becoming the dispossessing spirit which proves he was a solid being at one point (probably a primordial but not important).

The above quote gives no indication to a time reference between the conquering of Barze, Horreb, and Vane and i at first assumed the two events were connected but there could be years, decades, or even centuries between his conquering the kingdoms and being consumed by the fire.

Next quote

quote:
The city Phlan fell long ago to the unblessed creatures imbued with the might of a magical pool. Chief among these were Tyranthraxus, Edranka, and Torath. With their powers they ruled and united all else, driving forward to destroy us all.


Of course Phlan was founded in 367 DR by elves, humans, and dwarves, and at this time Thar also existed (and i personally think the Quivering Forest was created to prevent Thar expanding and threatening Cormanthor.

And finally from the article about Ironfang Keep we know that Edranka was killed and his goblin army was destroyed in the year -350 DR.



So i reckon that in light of the new lore provided by Ed about Embrurshaile and how it drained magic, life etc. I wonder if Tyranthraxus was not caught up in it somehow and turned into the possessing spirit by it.


So -356 DR Tyranthraxus conquers Barze, Horreb and Vane. He then moves on down towards the primitive human settlement that will later become Phlan (there is always a precursor settlement before the big city). This occurs sometime between -356 and -350.

Obviously they build up large armies and prepare to sweep along the Moonsea, kill off the humans that have settled in the cleared lands conquer Grong Haarp and create a rather large Moonsea Empire.

Now maybe the death of Tyranthraxus and the ritual Embrurshaile performed occured between -356 DR and -350 DR (there is no reason why it couldnt, it just means Embrurshaile would have had to be more cautious of the empire of Netheril and she might have had to spent a bit of time gathering the magic necessary).

Tyranthraxus is drained of most of his magic (he would probably have been on the very edge of the area of Embrurshaile's spell so he isnt killed) and his flaming body disintegrates. Thankfully he was in Phlan at the time and he is drawn into the Pool of Radiance that is hidden in the city.

He is now the possessing spirit and plagues the area for many more years (including Thar) before Baron Schodt (whoever he is) imprisons him in that vial and chucks him into the Lake Longreach (wherever that is).

Because Tyranthraxus is essentially dead and gone (or so Edranka and Tolath think. Edranka leads his goblin army as the "former" general of Tyranthraxus to Grong Haarp and dies fighting Hargut

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

perlmugp
Seeker

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2015 :  04:53:58  Show Profile  Visit perlmugp's Homepage Send perlmugp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a crazy thread, it has the makings of a sourcebook on Thar. It would be nice to see this all consolidated into one organized article with mention of what is canon and what is conjecture.

I'm pretty sure Lake Longreach is just north north west of Thar. It's on the map in the Monument of the Ancients from Dungeon mag.

--Zoomable Map of Faerun--
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2015 :  08:11:13  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well this was one of the precursors to my alternate dimensions project so I might one day come back and revisit thar and do a sourcebook style article on it. It just depends on how much free time I have with my new job as to whether I will ever do so. I wouldn't count on it being annotated with sources though unless anyone wants to volunteer for the job (I find that bit really dull so I just don't do it).

Netheril first though, I will finish that if it kills me.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2015 :  09:46:08  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could have sworn I did another thread on thar that mirrors this one. Not helpful I know but I'm not very organised.

Also for those tyranthraxus nuts, I think I finally figured out who/what he is. The answer lies in a single post by ed greenwood about the trio nefarious. Their membership rota is most illuminating, as is the magical items they possess which were given to them by their master (who I think is stated as being malkizid somewhere). It's too good to be a coincidence so I used it for my netheril rewrite.

50 points to whoever finds the post and puts it here (because I can't remember which year I saw it).

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2015 :  10:03:31  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And last of all I did a write up for iyrauroth in issue 1 of my alternate realms project so it included bits of my ideas for thar as well

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

perlmugp
Seeker

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2015 :  16:47:13  Show Profile  Visit perlmugp's Homepage Send perlmugp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On page 130 of the Grand History of the Realms there is a sidebar that is referring to the rebuilding of the Citadel of the Rave in 1276 DR that reads "Its refounding was long overdue. The “beast men” (ogres) and their orc hirelings had retaken Thar from failing human
hands and were raiding human steadings and travelers at will everywhere north of the Moonsea."

Any Idea what humans would have been in Thar pre 1276 DR to have the ogres and orcs take Thar away from them. The only ones I can think of are the wizards in Citadel Ankhalas (sp?)

--Zoomable Map of Faerun--
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4887 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  01:58:36  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a human kingdom of Thar that eventually fell to the humanoids. Its first mention was in the timeline provided in the 2E boxed set. More info can be found in Elminster's Ecologies and soime posts by Ed here at the 'Keep.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

perlmugp
Seeker

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  03:18:16  Show Profile  Visit perlmugp's Homepage Send perlmugp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the human kingdom of Thar was founded in 1288 DR by Beldoran, after the retaking of the Citadel of the Raven (1276 DR) so this sidebar must be referring to something else.

--Zoomable Map of Faerun--
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000