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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 14:50:41

Reading through the Ruins of Zhentil Keep it does look like there is definitely some mutating magic weirdness going on in the lands of Thar.

First is the mention of a beast unleashed by the Masked Wizards of Ankhalur. A snarling beast caged in a black whirlwind that spat lightning.

Then later is mention of a giant four armed orc named Ghauust.

I will of course be attributing this to the lingering influence of Tyranthraxus and his death.

Makes me wonder what the official thoughts on the matter are though.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 12:23:52

Finding quite a few interesting titbits of information on Thar and the Ride in my search of Polyhedron for information about the Moonsea region.

It would seem that the human kingdom of Thar was formed by Beldoran and his army. So the question is where did he get that army from. It could be they were mercenaries which would make Beldoran a very rich man. This is further backed up because he was married to an archmage from Teziir.

I still would like to think that his colonising of Thar was in part sponsored by Zhentil Keep, although maybe he approached many cities of the Moonsea North to get funding. They all had their own terms and conditions for the investment.

Another curious link is that the Dragon invasion in 1306 that ruined Phlan was actually caused by the Cult of the Dragon. However such an attack also coincided by an invasion of humanoids.

I am not sure that the two events are linked, in their cause. I reckon Zhentil Keep caused the humanoid uprising and directed it at Glister to destroy Thar. The Cult of the Dragon caused the dragon flight to destroy the cities of the Moonsea North for whatever reasons.

Oddly enough in 2nd edition sources it states that the Cult of the Dragon awoke Iyrauroth from his centuries long sleep beneath Thar (even though i thought he laired in Mount Grimmerfang; maybe he uses both lairs as he pleases). Iyrauroth i speculate is a dragon overlord type creature with many draconic vassals and has caused the downfall of numerous kingdoms in the Moonsea and Vast area so the Cult of the Dragon causing the Dragon Run that devastated Phlan and the awakening of Iyrauroth seem to be closely linked.

Also come across information on the Ride barbarians and that they are many small tribes with different customs etc.

I wonder if they are actually a collection of different peoples that have banded into tribes.

So we have the original humans that built or inhabited the citadel of the Raven.

We have the barbarian tribes from Low Netheril (i cant remember if it was rengarth or the other group that lived in the west.

One tribe of barbarians are the Vaegould that worship primordials. I wonder if this is an exiled group of Nar barbarians (ie the demon worshippers not the now Nar barbarians) after the fall of Narfell.

The Varm who practice Totem magic i cant think of an origin for but again might be slightly related to the Vaegould in that they are Nar in origin. Maybe they are the magic using barbarians from Low Netheril.

I'm pretty sure that the Netherese originally were a displaced barbarian people from the Hordelands area so some of these may have remained in the Ride area but then that probably accounts for the Low Netherese barbarians.

Then there would be the people remaining from the empires of Horreb and Barze who may form other tribes.

All of these disparate barbarian peoples form the Ride barbarians that constantly war with each other and have totally alien cultures and probably languages. But should another group threaten their lands they all band together to destroy the invaders.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 12:34:19

One more interesting item is the name of orcs and ogres of Thar.

The last ogre king of Thar was Maulog who supposedly bore Vorbyx's hammer.

According to Polyhedron hiding in Thar is an ogre chieftain called Daurogh.

As we know the overking of Vastar and the orc kingdom of Thar was called Ologh.

I previously speculated that Ologh was of the blood of Vorbyx and possibly of the blood of Iyrauroth.

I wonder if Maulog, Daurogh, Ologh are all of the same blood (given their similar names). The blood of Vorbyx; king of ogres, and the blood of Iyrauroth; Dragon Overlord of the Moonsea.
It has been said that in the various ogre and orc kingdoms of Thar that ogre and orcs mated together frequently. I then added Iyrauroth into the mix because he seems to be involved frequently with the goings on in Thar, Vastar, and the Moonsea

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 13:24:18

Their names could also be descriptive, in a similar fashion to Native American Names (ie, "Running Deer")

So lets suppose 'Ogh' means king ("chief of chiefs"), 'Ol' might mean either 'old' (a little too easy), or 'High'. Maybe we have something like that going on there, rather then an actual, physical relationship.

On the other hand, both could very well be true. (some) Ogres are rather bestial, and I could see them forming groups that were more like lions or primates; the male leader of the pack dominates everyone else, and is the only one allowed to breed with females (although you will always get those that sneak-off, behind the leader's back). Thus, most of the Thar Ogres could possibly trace their ancestry back to the 'old kings'.

On the other hand, far-northern Ogres are detailed in Giantcraft (Ice-Spire Ogres), and seem to be even more intelligent and resourceful. Going by the other giant lore we have, one might assume that Ogres were once a superior race that has devolved over time (possibly through inbreeding, amongst other things).

Just thought of something else - Ogh (and 'Og') might have meant something akin to Orog, which would explain why the (orc) chiefs were 'giants of their kind'. It would also help explain why both the Orcs and Ogres take credit for parts of Thar history; it makes perfect sense if their leaders were of both races.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 13:26:34

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 13:49:11

Well thanks to Eric Boyds and Tom Costa's bestiary there are details of an elder ogre race.

That is what the ogres were originally like before they were cursed by Annam and entered their current state.

So i have Vorbyx as an elder ogre. It makes him special and almost unique. And ogres will only follow the king and the king has to have Vorbyx's hammer, which the ogre magi now keep safe for another worthy bearer.

The naming thing i would go for if it were a more intelligent race, but for ogres they are pretty dense and i doubt they are capable of that kind of language structure. Plus they are all being monitored and manipulated by the band of ogre magi so if there is a structure behind the name it would be bestowed upon them by those magi (who are seeking to resurrect the ogre kingdom).

Plus Ologh was the overking of Vastar and that naming convention wasnt continued in the next orc that became Overking (ie Grimmerfang), and all the orcs of the Vast are supposedly interrelated according to the Ravensbluff book by Ed Greenwood (which i forgot how much i liked). So i reckon the orcs of Thar were originally of Vastar which is why Ologh could conquer it and declare himself Overking, but he was of Vorbyx's blood as well so i'm assuming his naming convention is a family thing to signify his orc/ogre heritage and royal blood.

I reckon i have reconciled the conflicting history of Thar regards to orcs and ogres ruling so that shouldnt be a problem now. I havent found anything that contradicts it in any of the other books i have read.

Ogre kingdom of Thar comes first, then orc kingdom of Thar comes next. Orc kingdom conquers Vastar and Ologh becomes Overking of Thar and Vastar. Then Ologh is slain by Iyrauroth and shortly afterwards Vastar is destroyed (when the dwarves slay Grimmerfang). So Thar becomes separate from Vastar once again with many petty tribes of orcs and ogres and occasionally one of them gets their hands on the hammer of Vorbyx (thanks to the ogre magi) and declares himself Tharkul although he never quite manages to create a proper kingdom of Thar he just unites several tribes behind his banner.
Then Beldoran comes along and kills Maulog and creates the human kingdom of Thar.
Then the Zhentarim divert a horde of orcs and ogres to attacking Beldoran and Thar and that destroys the human kingdom of Thar and we are then in the present day.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 20:24:41

I am not sure if this is a case of 'parallel thinking', or its because of all the cross-contamination we get when we share our thoughts here at The 'Keep.

I always felt that there was a strong connection between the (now gone) Orcs of The Vast and the humanoids of Thar. We have at least one kingdom that was ruled by non-humanoids (although weather that extended beyond just the few 'lords' is unknown), and we have at least two separate histories by the humanoids themselves, both claiming to have ruled the land.

A new picture is starting to form itself in my head (or rather, a more refined one). I picture the first human civilization in the northern Moonsea region To have conquered the remnants of the ancient Ogre (giant) Kingdom. They would have used and abused them, and perhaps even helped to 'devolve' them (by whatever means - probably cross-breeding).

Over in the Vast, the once-mighty Orc kingdom of Vastarr begins to topple, with enemies on all sides (including in-fighting with other subjected humanoids, like kobolds and goblins). The People of the Black Sails (that 'lost' Moonsea kingdom) send some Ogre-Magi over to The Vast and lead them back to Thar (probably through all those underground caverns those mounatins are riddled with), with prommises of a 'kingdom reborn'. Then they get there, and they are low-man on the totem pole (as the saying goes). the ogres start lording it over them, but these 'sophisticated' orcs retaliate, and the whole thing starts to fall apart (his would have happened over time, and we can play with those numbers as much as we want). Now, if we are right about who ran that kingdom - The Dark Three - then they would have had ulterior motives anyway, and would have abandoned their brutish subjects just as soon as they achieved their goals (godhood).

What you have two different groups who think they should be in-charge - both of whom had their own kingdoms until recently (so thats why we have the historic discrepancies), and then the (human?) leaders disappear, and civil war ensues. They eventually fall-back to their old tribal ways. We also have many half-Orc Orogs (along with the Ogre/human crossbreeds, Ogrillons) in that mix. Over the course of years (maybe a century or two), one group gains dominance over the rest, and declares itself a Kingdom (and goes by whatever name they want, including one of the names of the original kingdoms).

So you have sophisticated ogres in the North. Some humans come along, conquer/cow the ogres and build a kingdom there. The 'devolved' state may have happened before or after the human arrival in the Northern Moonsea area. Then Orcs join with them from Vastarr - either cowed or coaxed - doesn't matter which. The human Kingdom falls, and the Orcs and Ogres go back and forth. In fact, the Orcs may have arrived (in force) AFTER the 'people of the Black Sails' kingdom fell, and conquered the remaining ogres (for a time). That might even be better. That covers everything, right?

Split for brevity...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 20:34:16

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 20:35:10

Con't...

The only problems I see in all that is when the Moonsea was created - which I calculate was only in the past 300 years! (from the 4e date) - and the Fallen kingdom of Barze (when did that exist?) There was also another kingdom on the shores of the Moonsea, ruled by that lich. I forget the name - it was in the Swords of the Moonsea novels. But that was fairly recent and might not even come into play with all of this

I also figure (and got confirmation somewhere at some point) that there was SOMETHING there where the Moonsea is now - either a much smaller body of water, or a series of lakes. The fact that it is all freshwater, as opposed to saltwater (which the SoFS is) tells us it could even just be mostly glacial run-off (because the glacier melted, coincidentally, in the past couple of centuries). I had assumed that the Moonsea itself was a shallow impact-crater, but the info in the 2e Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms indicates that it fell somewhere in Thar and was carried into Vaasa. Thus, my guess would be the thing fell in the Thar - possibly reducing whatever kingdom was there to smithereens - and left it blasted wasteland, and the nearby glacier receded due both to the impact and the enormous heat (shouldn't there be a 'glass sea' somewhere up there?) Here's a quote from that source:

quote:
The caverns of the ogres' long-ago stronghold eventually gave onto tunnels delving into the Underdark. Once again we trod the strange grottoes and passageways of that dangerous subterranean realm.
Esta Starchild's staff led us steadily north and east. Somehow it knew the safest route, for we encountered no hostile denizens of the Underdark, which is quite unusual from what I had heard, and surely a blessing.
Eventually the passageways began to angle upward. We emerged from a cave along the mountains of northwestern Vaasa.
Pulsing brilliantly, Starchild's staff seemed eager to guide us to the shrine where the Tear of Sel�ne waited. Under its guidance, we continued north
along the mountains. The land was wild and empty. Still, I felt we were being watched. Starchild sensed the presence also. It was an evil presence.
Near dusk one evening, we finally crept within view of a settlement. Though a good distance away, my keen eyes could make out the forms of wretched half-human, half-beast women and children forced to tend the needs of orcs, ogres and other foul creatures. The stench from their huge cast-iron cook pots filled my nose. It sickened me to think of what boiled within those foul cauldrons. Vaasa is truly a horrible place.

I suggest you go through that entire source; the whole thing is chock-full of secrety goodness, but the last few chapters are important to what you are working on.

Edit: once again, we can make a connection to other lore, to help explain things. In the first Everis Cale series, we had another (artificially created) Tearfall, which didn't wreak nearly as much havoc as it should have. At first some of us wanted to blame that on 'bad writing' (which Paul Kemp doesn't do), but instead the idea came up (over on the WotC boards) that part of Toril's physics is that catastrophic natural events are curtailed in their devastation by the Weave - it acts like a planet-wide Mythalar. This might even be something Ao (or Mystra) added-in after something like The Dark Disaster, or Jhaamdath. So, even though the Tearfall in the far north should have had greater impact (literally), it didn't, because of the nature of the planet's protective field. Thus, Thar would have been devastated, but not nearly as completely as would have happened otherwise (assume all that energy got dispersed into the glacier itself, which would explain all that melting, without the massive environmental impact).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 20:58:53

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 20:56:23

Just checking various sources - I had no idea the period around 700 DR was so damn interesting. Just found this in the GHotR:

quote:
709 DR Year of the Earnest Oaths
The three freed nycaloths and their summoned yugoloth allies spend twentynine months drawing together their forces amid the mountains and hills north of the Dragon Sea. In all, their army consists of orcs, ogres, bugbears, hobgoblins, gnolls, flinds, trolls, and an ever-growing assortment of lesser yugoloths.

Apparently the Moonsea was still the Dragon Sea at that point (confirming my suspicions that the body of water was altered after the tearfall in Thar).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 20:57:07

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 22:00:23

Well I don't think the name of an area changing necessarily indicates something happened. It might just signify a change of majority population that remember the area for something different.

The elves are ancient and would definitely remember dragons lairing all around the Dragon Sea.

The humans migrating into the area only arrive in 0 DR however and they note the amazing reflection of the Moon that is cast over the sea (something noted in the polyhedron mag) and that the area is sacred to Selune, so they name it the Moonsea.

Anyways, that aside. I did a timeline of Thar and the surrounding areas which is almost completely canon, with a few homebrew linkages of my own so here it is.

And I included the orcgate wars since Thar orcs must be grey orcs and so that date was important for later reasons.

Early Thar
Early Thar was a fertile land ruled by the kingdom of Ostoria. Hill and Stone giants dwelled in the land along with some Frost giant tribes that became increasingly more common with the appearance of the Great Glacier and its spread south.
Eventually the Great Glacier reaches the border of the Tortured Lands and the Abbey Mountains, joining up with the High Ice across the Netheril Basin and encompassing all of the Galena Mountains before reaching out across Damara and Narfell.
The Great Glacier�s advance was only stopped thanks to the high magic of the elves of the forest of Lethyr (then known as the Riildath).
The entire Moonsea region and the Ride were all Forests in them days.
Then came the dragons who warred ceaselessly with the giants and pushed the limits of Ostoria back to the cold lands.
The dragon overlords also dwelled in the Moonsea Region and elevated local primitive humanoid tribes to a level of civilisation unheard of at that time. They built great fortresses for them like the Citadel of the Raven where they could dwell in safety and comfort from the monsters that lurked in the plains and the forests.
Then the elves worked their magics and the dragon empires fell one by one, and the humans returned to barbarism.
c. �26000 DR: Othea, mother of giantkind, pursues a series of unsatisfying affairs with various powers such as Vaprak, father of the ogre race.
Time of the Elves
With the ending of the Fifth Crown Wars the Elven Court becomes the centre of elf civilisation on Faer�n, and quickly results in the creation of three great elven realms in the forest of Arcorar. This forest stretches all the way from the Moonsea and the Ride, through Sembia, the Dalelands, Cormanthor, and the Netheril Basin to Cormyr.
In the northern regions of the forest above the river Tesh is founded the kingdom of Rystall Wood, this stretches across the north shore of the Moonsea, into the Netheril Basin, and up through the Ride.
Its capital Yrlaancel is founded in the Ride.
The end of the time of the elves in the Moonsea region starts in -5000 DR with the Twelve Nights of Fire. A meteorite annihilates Uvaeren and separates the Rystall Wood from the rest of Arcorar. Then over the next few millennia the realm of Rystall Wood suffers a series of setbacks involving the deaths of coronals at the Dark Court Slaughter, then the political isolation of Rystall Wood by its impressionable coronal and the construction of the Twisted Tower by the drow of Maerimydra. Fnally the Spiderfires are caused by the drow which burn large portions of southern Rystall Wood further separating it geographically from the forest of Cormanthor.
By the time of -2439 DR and the Spiderfires; the strength of Rystall Wood is largely depleted, logging of the Ride and the northern shore of the Moonsea begins and turn these lands into open plains.
�5000 DR: Survivors of House Dlardrageth [�4800], a clan of demon-blooded sun elves, flee from Arcorar to Siluvanede.
Rystall Wood becomes a separate forest and realm after the Twelve Nights of Fire clear away the mountain and hill trees that attached it to Arcorar. Although an independent forest now, its coronal still convenes often with the leaders of the Elven Court.
The Twelve Nights of Fire (Midsummer): Uvaeren is destroyed by a falling star whose impact opens a hundred-mile-long and thirty-mile-wide clearing in Cormanthor�s treeline. The coronal and nearly all of Uvaeren�s noble houses die instantly or during the conflagration. Few Uvaeranni escape to the safety of deeper Arcorar, aside from those few dozen away from the realm during this disaster.
�4400 DR: The Dark Court Slaughter: Drow and duergar attack and destroy the Elven Court and Sarphil beginning on Midwinter Night. Within days, the Elven Court is in ruins and Sarphil is occupied by the drow and duergar. The Dark Court Slaughter claims the lives of many clan leaders of the Elven Court and the coronals of both Rystall Wood and Jhyrennstar. This was secretly orchestrated by the Balor Wendonai who was acting as consort to the matron mothers of the most powerful drow families.
�4200 DR: The impressionable Coronal Enajharas isolates Rystall Wood from all dealings with Arcorar, because her nobles claim that conspiracies against them whirl among the elves of Jhyrennstar.
�2600 DR: Drow from Maerimydra begin work on the Twisted Tower [�2549] in present-day Shadowdale.
�2549 DR: Despite repeated attacks and attempts to stop them, the drow complete the Twisted Tower [�2600, �1950] this year and build up their presence here. Lolth removes her favour of the Balor Wendonai as she detests the idea of drow returning to the surface lands.
�2439 DR: The Spiderfires: Drow inflict the greatest damage upon the forests since the Twelve Nights of Fire by setting the southern Rystall Woods aflame with a swarm of spiders made from arcane fire. After a long, dry summer, the woods burn easily. This clears nearly one hundred miles of forest south of the River Tesh, severs the southernmost part of the woods around and to the west of the Twisted Tower from the greater Rystall Woods, and widens the cleared lands between them and Cormanthor.
�1400 DR: Start of the Eleventh Rysar of Rystall Wood. Coronal Faahresc is a rabid drow-hating warrior who leads his people on numerous raids in the Underdark caverns and the Twisted Tower to the south.
�1354 DR: Unified armies of Rystall Wood and Cormanthyr infiltrate and rout the majority of the drow forces around and under the lands of Rystall, Uvaeren�s ruins, and the Old Skull, the granite crag within the hills that lie in the clearings among the three forests. However, they cannot penetrate the Twisted Tower [�1950, �750], allowing many drow to escape.
Arrival of the Orcs
In -1076 DR, the grey orcs arrive on Faer�n, these orcs are smarter and more civilised than their mountain orc kindred and have access to much more potent magics. They pour into the land that will be Thay but are defeated by the armies of Mulhorand with aid from Nar, Raumathar, Rashemi, and Sossrim mercenaries. These mercenaries drive the orcs north as they travel home and so the grey orcs reach the Vast region probably sometime around -900 DR.
From the Vast it is a short hop across the Moonsea in boats, or over the Galena Mountains to reach the Moonsea North and the lands of Thar which they are now famous for marauding.
�1076 DR to �1069 DR: The Orcgate Wars: The Orcgate opens in the southern portion of the Plateau of Thay. Renegade Mulhorandi wizards employ Imaskari portal magic to open planar gates to an orc world. Hundreds of thousands of orcs inundate the northern territories of both Mulhorand and Unther. Mulhorand hires Nar, Raumathari, Rashemi, and Sossrim mercenaries to fight the orc invaders.
The Petty Kingdoms of the Moonsea
During this time period the shore of the Northern Moonsea is free of trees between Phlan and the Galenas, and tribes of humans and goblinoids, and gnolls, and other creatures wander the plains and hills surviving however they can.
In the south across the Moonsea on it�s southern shores, the kingdom of Grong-Haap is created by a survivor from the batrachi � one of the creator races. He seeks to create a kingdom centred on Ironfang Keep so he can research binding the primordial Hargut to his will that once manifested in this region. Disguising his shape as a greathorn minotaur he gathers tribes of the bull men to his banner and forges a kingdom that spreads from the northern highlands of the Vast around the eastern edge of the Moonsea and eventually into the lands that will be known as Thar.
Other kingdoms are also created around this time.
Horreb is created in -970 DR by a migrating tribe of Nar that learned the secrets of the artificers of Imaskar during the Orcgate Wars and sought to create their own kingdom full of machines and mechanical wonders.
An arcanist fleeing decadent Netheril because of his religious beliefs and the impending doom of his people, Barze creates a kingdom reminiscent of his home of Netheril; where magic rules all, in the fertile eastern vale at the end of The Ride.
All of this comes to an end thanks to the machinations of the Dark Three who manipulate the empires of Barze and Horreb into forming a coalition to fight against the primordial Maram that was unleashed upon the world by decadent Netheril.
In -357 DR, the coalition marches on Maram and defeats his armies, succeeding in binding him to the will of the Dark Three. By the following year, Barze and Horreb are destroyed by the creature known as Tyranthraxus.
Grong-Haap falls a few years later and the Dark Three bind another primordial to their will; Hargut of the far realm.
-981 DR: Haask; a batrachi elder doppleganger masquerading as a greathorn minotaur, claims Ironfang Keep as his own and creates the minotaur kingdom of Grong-Haap. Over the next 600 years to -350 DR, Grong-Haap slowly extends its borders to cover the northern highlands of the Vast, the eastern shore of the Moonsea, and the land that will come to be known as Thar.
-970 DR: A tribe of Nar migrate from Narfel across the Moonsea to the lands centred on modern day Thar. This tribe learned much during its time aiding Mulhorand in the Orcgate wars and learned magic lore of the artificers of Imaskar from caches hidden in the Plateau of Thay.
c. �750 DR: Drow attacks on Cormanthyr and Rystall Wood begin again in earnest, but only as slash-and-run raids by drow seeking magic, slaves, or destruction. The impregnable Twisted Tower [�1354, �470] expands twice in the next decades.
c. �700 DR: Rise of the Vastar [331], kingdom of orcs in the Vast region.
-457 DR Year of Hostile Badgers: The arcanist Barze then led his persecuted flock away from Negarath Enclave, traveling on foot for many months beyond the eastern frontier of Netheril. As Alaphaer�s first snows began to fall, the beleaguered exiles came upon a fertile dale sheltered by two great mountain ranges. There Barze founded his self-titled kingdom, and for a time the war-weary archwizard knew true happiness.
Founding of the Kingdom of Barze.
-357 DR: The Dark Three (Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul) lead an alliance of the wizards of Barze, the artificers of Horreb, the horse nomads of Varm, the gnolls of Flindyke, the goliaths of Akoro, and the gnomes of Forharn against the primordial Maram of the Great Spear. Maram was imprisoned in a ritual cube at the monument of the ancients. Barze the arcanist is assassinated by Bhaal
-356 DR: The civilisations of Barze and Horreb are conquered by Tyranthraxus and his twisted ones.
c. �350 DR: The Netherese migration to Illusk [�354, �111] reaches its peak as settlers from many towns in Low Netheril travel west to escape the depredations of the phaerimms.
�350 DR Year of Craven Words: Edranka, former general of Tyranthraxus leads an army of 100,000 goblinoids out of the Tortured Lands against the kingdom of Grong-Haap. He dies with his army outside Ironfang Keep, slaughtered by the primordial known as Hargut.
Haask is fatally wounded by Bhaal after the battle with Edranka and his goblinoids. The Dark Three bind Haask to Hargut and imprison the being now known as Haask � Voice of Hargut, beneath Ironfang Keep.
The Rise of Thar
The beginnings of Thar are sown by the arrival of the elder ogre Vorbyx, former general of Maram. Following visions from Vaprak he finds an ancient hammer of the giant kingdom of Ostoria that will serve as the symbol of his realm. He then unites the ogre tribes of Thar and subdues the orcs tribes to form the ogre kingdom of Thar.
Using his superior intelligence and skills he uses fake prophets to sow fake prophecies foretelling the arrival of a great king wielding a powerful hammer of the giants.
He then creates several magical locations linked to the spirits of the land and begins to attract ogres and orcs from lands all around to his kingdom. By using Oni immigrants and his Oni children he creates a portal network allowing him speedy communication and movement in his realm so that he can better combat his enemies (the elves).
Eventually Vorbyx sees the need for his own death to complete the legend he began to sow so many years ago and so seals himself in a tomb and disappears forever leaving the hammer and his legacy to his children.
During this time, the Rystall Wood is further logged and the realm falls in -64 DR. The borders of the forest of Rystall Wood now match present day and only the Border Forest remains to indicate that at one point the whole region was covered in trees.
Human migration into the area begins to increase during this period as the kingdoms of Netheril fall in -339, and then its successor states over the next few centuries. Myth Drannor also falls which weakens the elve�s dominance in the area allowing yet more refugees to come to the Moonsea.
By the year 348 DR the humans of the Moonsea create the first walled civilised settlement; Northkeep as a shining beacon to all others that even the Moonsea can be tamed.
And by 400 DR the ogre kingdom of Thar destroyed Northkeep by allying with the orcs of Vastar and the dragon Iyrauroth. This alliance ultimately leads to the destruction of the ogre kingdom of Thar and indirectly leads to the creation of the orc kingdom of Thar and the overkingdom of Vastar.
The settlement of Phlan follows Northkeep in 367 DR, created as a meeting and trading place for the dwarves, elves, and humans.
By 572 DR the overkingdom of Vastar is ended and the kingdom of Thar exists as nothing more than a dominant tribe wielding the hammer of Vorbyx trying to subdue the other tribes of Thar. Any true semblance of government or organisation is lost after this point.
�349 DR Year of Bold Poachers: The elder ogre Vorbyx arrives in what will eventually become the land of Thar. Some say he was thawed from the Great Glacier and wandered south, others say he fled Ostoria shortly after his mother�s; Othea�s affair was discovered and wandered the planes, eventually coming to serve Maram he returned to Toril during the Seven Sigils War. Following visions from Vaprak he discovers a cave tomb of an ancient ogre and discovers a giant hammer of Ostoria which will soon become known as Vorbyx�s Hammer.
Using the hammer of Vorbyx and his skills and knowledge as well as a tribe of Oni he gradually united all of the ogre and orc tribes of Thar under his banner and created the kingdom of Thar.
�339 DR Year of Sundered Webs � Fall of Netheril: Nearly all of the Netherese enclaves fall to the earth and are destroyed due to disruptions in the Weave brought about by the casting of the spell Karsus�s avatar and the subsequent death of the goddess Mystryl.
�310 DR Year of Glassharks: In gratitude for their aid in the Shadow Wars, the coronal allows some reformed, surface-acclimated drow to settle in remote lands of Cormanthyr to the east of Cormanthor.
Coronal Tannivh allows small groups of reformed, surface-acclimated drow to settle in the remote forest east of Cormanthor.
�205 DR Year of Good Hunting: Orc hordes engulf Rystall Wood throughout the year, the worst hordes arriving in winter.
�75 DR Year of Leather Shields: Teshar (Teshir) is founded in the cleared lands between Rystall Wood and Cormanthor.
�64 DR Year of Gleaming Frost: Rystall Wood falls in its Twelfth Rysar to giants and orcs. The survivors either remain in Yrlaancel or migrate to Cormanthyr.
1 DR Year of Sunrise: The Standing Stone [591] is raised by the elves of Cormanthyr and the Dalesmen, ratifying the Dales Compact [1374] between them and starting the Dalereckoning calendar.
75 DR Year of Clinging Death: The elf village of Tsornyl, blighting much of the surrounding woods. The High Mages of Cormanthyr use their magic to sever the �creeping evil� from Moander and imprison the corruption at Tsornyl, weakening the Darkbringer�s presence in Toril.
220 DR Year of the Sword Violets: Coronal Eltargrim opens the forest of Cormanthor to non-elves, N�Tel�Q uess, primarily druids, great wizards, and crafters who can add to the glory of Cormanthyr.
329 DR Year of the Closed Scroll: Hlondath is abandoned when the encroachment of Anauroch begins to destroy its fields. Its inhabitants migrate east to the Moonsea and south into the Dalelands.
331 DR Year of the Cold Clashes: The orcs of Vastar [�700, 512] launch an unexpected attack on eastern Cormanthyr late in this year, and occupy some of the lands east of the Elven Court for the next few years. The orcs spend the next years both solidifying their forces here and exploring the ruins of the ancient elf temple city.
335 DR Year of Seven Stones: The Darkwoods Massacre: The fourth major foray by Myth Drannor forces against the invading orcs occurs within the Darkwoods in high summer. The battle is lost as the orcs surround over half of the allied forces and decimate them in their sleep; since the human guards were also among the slain, no explanation is apparent for the negligence. In all, more than 1,000 soldiers died that night, though only 100 of them were elves. The mysterious circumstances surrounding the incident are later revealed to be incompetence and bigotry among the officer corps.
339 DR Year of the Vanished Foe: The orcs in the eastern forest of Cormanthyr are routed by elf and human forces. Instrumental in the battles is the human warrior Velar. Velar and his human (and some elf) allies resettle the lands around the coastal forest, and the area soon becomes known as Velarsdale (now known as Harrowdale).
348 DR Year of the Dagger: Northkeep is settled in the Moonsea. The first truly civilised human settlement in the Moonsea region.
351 DR Year of the Dancing Deer: Yrlaancel grows with an influx of refugees from Hlondath and becomes Ondathel, Eldath�s City of Peace.
367 DR Year of Shying Eyes: The city of Phlan [400] is founded on the northern shores of the Dragons� Sea.
By the time of 367 DR the elves of Cormanthor the dwarves of the Dragonspine Mountains, and the human tribes of the northern Moonsea were in diplomatic talks to improve trade and better relations between the three races.
The elves desired an end to the logging of the woods and so an agreement was reached. The humans could claim the land as far as the river Tesh. In return the elves would help limit the expansion of the land of Thar. As part of the deal the three races constructed the city of Phlan and the elves used High Magic to create the Quivering Forest which would forever resist the spread of Thar by regrowing any damage done to it in a single day.
400 DR Year of the Blue Shield: Evil, inhuman forces known collectively as the Dark Alliance sweep out of Thar and destroy Northkeep. After a dark ritual is performed by over 40,000 humanoid priests, mages, and shamans, the city of Northkeep sinks beneath the purple waves of the Dragons� Sea.
The neighbouring settlement of Phlan is also sacked by the inhuman army.
The Dark Alliance is a coalition of armies from the ogre kingdom of Thar and the orc kingdom of Vastar. The ogres of Thar make a pact with Iyrauroth to deliver their army to Northkeep on dragonback. Iyrauroth demands a substantial annual tribute for this service.
Chondathan and Chauncelgaunt (present- day Saerloon and Selgaunt) come under attack by orc and goblin raiders. Defenders of future Sembia battle the nonhuman hordes for the next fifteen years.
401 DR: Remnants from the Dark Alliance sweep into Cormyr via present day Sembia and invade the King�s Forest
451 DR Year of Unleashed Fears: The ogre kingdom of Thar falls when Iyrauroth attacks it with a small army of draconic orcs and ogrillons. Iyrauroth takes Vorbyx�s hammer from the corpse of the Tharkul and returns to his mountain home.
479 DR Year of Forestsfrost: Teshar falls in this year to raids and assaults from the drow of the Twisted Tower [�331, 500] in present-day Shadowdale.
520 DR: In 520 DR, an orc of exceptional size, strength, and charisma named Ologh came down out of the Galena mountains (in truth this orc possessed the ogre blood of Vorbyx and the draconic blood of Iyrauroth in his veins). Claiming to be Tharkul; for he bore Vorbyx�s Hammer, he subdued the warring ogre and orc tribes that lived in Thar and recreated the kingdom of Thar with himself as king.
536 DR Year of the Laughing Lich: Hlontar, realm of Alokkair the Wizard-King, is forged out of remnants of Teshar and the Netherese survivor states.
569 DR Year of Tumbled Bones: Fall of Hlontar and the disappearance and presumed death of Alokkair.
572 DR Year of Writhing Darkness: Iyrauroth, slays Ologh the Overking of the orcish kingdom of Vastar in the Year of Writhing Darkness (572 DR).
The Human City-States of the Moonsea
Human settlement of the Moonsea is now unstoppable. The settlements of Mulmaster, Hillsfar, Hulburg, Sulasspryn, Thentia, and Zhentil Keep are all settled during this time and the Moonsea Region comes to resemble that of today.
610 DR Year of the Spellfire: Dwarves conquer the lands of the Vast, overcoming Grimmerfang and his orcs and founding Roldilar, the Realm of Glimmering Swords.
640 DR Year of the Fanged Beast: First mining and trading encampments established at what will become Zhentil Keep.
669 DR Year of the Brutal Beast: Abarat the Alabaster, an elf archmage with a reputation for plane-walking, resigns as head of the Six Tyryl Towers wizards� school and announces plans to build a tower north of the city and Cormanthor in the western reaches of what the elves called the Beast Marches.
There he begins to build a tower out of magically strengthened ivory, declaring that not only would it be a pillar of strength against the onslaught of evil creatures from the north, but it would connect the elf nations and become a hub for trade and travellers.
720 DR Year of the Dawn Rose: The sylvan community of Elventree is founded on the southern shores of the Moonsea as a site for the elves of the Elven Court to continue interaction with their allied races (since the Elven Court now is off limits to non-elves) and as a trading site.
735 DR Year of the Prophet�s Child: Stallac Benadi first Imperceptor of Bane is born. Stellac was invested with the title of Imperceptor by an avatar of Bane himself.
747 DR Year of Stagnant Water: Founding of Flostren�s Hold at the mouth of the River Tesh on the Moonsea allowing the dwarves of Tethyamar access to new trading avenues. In its first year it survives several orc and ogre attacks.
748 DR Year of the Coin: Flostren�s Hold is bought out by a consortium of merchants from Chauncelgaunt (Sembia) who are later known as the Twelve Lords.
750 DR Year of the Dying Dwarf: Walls are built around Flostren�s Hold. Elephstron; the shrewdest of the merchants of Flostren�s Hold proclaims himself Lord of the Keep.
751 DR Year of Good Tidings: Elephstron hires a mage he met in Westgate; Zhentar to come to Flostren�s Hold. Zhentar becomes a lord of Flostren�s Hold along with the other leading merchants.
752 DR Year of High Treachery: The Cleansing of the Council begins in Flostren�s Hold. Lords opposed to Zhentar are slain. Brest, warrior-priest of Bane, is guided by visions from his god to accept a seat on the council.
753 DR Year of Strife: The Dark Shrine, a temple to Bane, is founded in Flostren�s Hold by High Priest Brest.
Lord Zhentar and Lord Elephstron of Flostren�s Hold are each slain by the other in a failed assassination attempt by Zhentar against Elephstron. Elephstron�s son Jhoaz is named to the Council of Lords as Lord of the Keep. Flostren�s Hold is renamed Zhentil Keep to honour the memory of Zhentar. The official story is that Lord Zhentar was assassinated by a sorcerous agent of the Sembians and that Lord Elephstron dies as an innocent bystander rushing to aid Zhentar.
754 DR Year of Md-Summer�s Dreams: Zhentil Keep starts a program of expansion, erecting new walls and the first bridge across the river Tesh
775 DR Year of the Bloody Stone: The new walls of Zhentil Keep are finished.
796 DR Year of the Grey Mists: Merrydale becomes Daggerdale following vampiric infestation.
Zhent caravan masters report that night terrors in Merrydale have made the route too dangerous. Seeking a new road to the south, the Zhents are the only surface-dwellers to set aside violence and make peace with the drow of the Ashaba Valley [906].
800 DR Year of the Black Fist: The Moonsea city of Thentia is founded.
801 DR: Tomar of Bane, second Imperceptor of Bane is born.
844 DR: Stellac Benadi, first Imperceptor of Bane descends into the catacombs beneath Zhentil Keep charged by his god to build a vast underground empire dedicated to Bane. Stellac Benadi becomes the seventh Banelich.
Tomar of Bane becomes the second Imperceptor of Bane. Tomar�s greatest achievement was the introduction of a deadly plague into the Western Heartlands, causing the deaths of thousands.
848 DR: Harr Santolic, third Imperceptor of Bane, is born.
877 DR Year of the Scratching Claw: Tomar of Bane, second Imperceptor of Bane becomes the eighth Banelich.
Harr Santolic becomes third Imperceptor of Bane. He is attributed with the rise of the church of Bane in the Western Heartlands.
882 DR Year of the Curse: The Night Plague descends on Zhentil Keep. Liches stalk the streets during the night kidnapping and slaying folk for their experiments. The Zhentilar are formed by the Council as the military and magical arm of Zhentil Keep and use this disorder to eliminate several undesirable elements in the Keep. The liches responsible for the Night Plagues are bribed into returning to their crypts beneath Zhentil Keep where they may remain to this day.
901 DR: Wedic B�donder, fourth Imperceptor of Bane is born.
902 DR Year of the Queen�s Tears: Zhentil Keep sends its new Zhentilar army against Phlan in a border dispute. The campaign against Phlan continues for many years with many crushing defeats for Phlan.
906 DR Year of the Plough: The Treaty of the Ride is concluded between Zhentil Keep, Phlan, and Melvaunt (The Triple Alliance) at the behest of Zhentil Keep over fears about the growing power of the Dales in the south and the formation of Shadowdale. None of the other powers of the Moonsea are able to refuse the treaty thanks to years of warfare that have weakened them considerably.
934 DR Year of Fell Wizardry: Mulmaster [1306] is founded as a trading fortress between the Moonsea, the River Lis, and the Dragon Reach.
940 DR Year of the Cold Claws: Hulburg was founded, as a base for human forces fighting giants and humanoids in Thar. The city grew quickly and soon huge walls, barracks, training grounds, and dock facilities sprang up. Eventually soldiers� families and others moved in.
966 DR: Herr Santolic, third Imperceptor of Bane dies.
Wedic B�donder becomes fourth Imperceptor of Bane. Wedic brought the worship of Bane to full blossom within the walls of Zhentil Keep.
974 DR Year of the Haunting Harpy: The Moonsea settlement built around the stronghold of retired half-elf adventurer Sulass Drowsbane is incorporated as the city of Sulasspryn.
988 DR Year of the Meddling Avatar: Forja B�donder, fifth High Imperceptor of Bane is born
1010 DR: Wedic B�donder, fourth Imperceptor of Bane becomes the last person to be transformed into a Banelich by Bane.
Forja B�donder becomes fifth High Imperceptor of Bane. Forja is the only female to be named High Imperceptor and the most beautiful Banite to walk the face of Faerun. Renowned for the vast number of Harpers who died at her hands.
1018 DR Year of the Dracorage: Rage of Dragons: A Rage of Dragons devastates the Heartlands, the lands around the Shining Sea, and the western and southern coasts of the Inner Sea.
The Cult of the Dragon [1001, 1222] is blamed for dragon assaults on Zhentil Keep, and the Zhents begin to first recognize this organization as an enemy.
A great flight of dragons assaults Zhentil Keep. The old keep is destroyed, but the city is spared by the wizards and priests of Bane; the most notable performers are elevated to the Council as a reward for their services, thus filling the gaps created by the dragons.
1055 DR: Strife, sixth High Imperceptor of Bane is born.
1076 DR Year of the Defiant Salute: Forja B�donder, fifth High Imperceptor of Bane dies.
Strife becomes sixth High Imperceptor of Bane. Strife brought quarrelling factions of the church together and spread the word of Bane further than any other mortal upon the face of Faer�n. Died at the hands of treacherous Harpers.
1110 DR Year of the Bloody Fields: Hulburg [940, 1306], a Moonsea city, is sacked by an unexpected giant attack.
1120 DR: Brist of Bane, seventh High Imperceptor of Bane is born.
Brist of Bane becomes the seventh High Imperceptor of Bane. Brist is the youngest to possess the mantle of Imperceptor. Brist began the war against the other gods of Faer�n who fought against Banites everywhere. Died at the hands of a cleric of Lathander.
1207 DR: Szchulan Darkoon, eighth High Imperceptor of Bane is born.
1221 DR Year of the Frozen Flower: While the Harpers and Elminster are busy with the Harpstar Wars, Voonlar is all but forced to sign a treaty of mutual trade and defence with Zhentil Keep effectively annexing the farming community.
1224 DR: Brist of Bane, seventh High Imperceptor of Bane dies.
Szchulan Darkoon becomes eighth High Imperceptor of Bane.
1229 DR Year of the Carrion Crow: Manshoon, future Lord of the Zhentarim, is born in Zhentil Keep.
1245 DR Year of Pain: Worship of Loviatar gains great popularity. Most of the modern temples to Loviatar in the North are founded.
A temple to Loviatar is founded in Zhentil Keep
1258 DR Year of Wilted Flowers: Lords Harlshoon and Calkontor kill each other in a failed assassination attempt by Calkontor on Harlshoon. The official story is that their deaths are a terrible accident possibly caused by Cormyte/Sembian treachery. Their places on the Council of Zhentil Keep are taken by the Lords Theilon and Ulsan.
1259 DR Year of the Vigilan Fist: Manshoon, his brother Asmuth (sons of Harlshoon), and his friend Chess (son of Calkontor) are seriously injured while adventuring. They later hear of their father�s deaths; Harlshoon and Calkontor and opt to return to Zhentil Keep to take their rightful place as Lords. On the return journey home Manshoon begins studying magic and murders his blinded brother by pushing him off a deep ridge.
Battle of the Masks: Lord Theilon leads Zhentilar forces against the orc and ogre forces of the Masked Wizards of Ankhalus; a brotherhood of evil mages that dwelled in a small keep in Thar. Lord Theilon and all the Masked Wizards of Ankhalus are killed in the battle and citadel Ankhalus is reduced to a half melted, smoking ruin. Lord Ulsan remains in charge of the Zhentilar.
1260 DR Year of the Broken Blade: Manshoon and Chess return to Zhentil Keep and become the target of assassination attempts by Lord Ulsan. Chess defects to Ulsan�s side supposedly betraying his friend Manshoon.
1261 DR Year of Bright Dreams: Chess arranges a trapped meeting between Manshoon and Ulsan and then during the meeting betrays Lord Ulsan. Manshoon, Chess, and Fzoul Chembryl easily kill Lord Ulsan and Manshoon claims his seat on the Zhent council. He then founds the secret organization of the Zhentarim.
1263 DR Year of the Tressym: Fzoul Chembryl [1368] steps forward in Zhentil Keep to take up the reins of authority for the Dark Shrine of Bane. Fzoul rededicates the Darks Shrin to the Black Altar of Bane as a direct insult to the Black Lord�s Altar of Bane in Mulmaster which is led by Fzoul�s now opponent the High Imperceptor of Bane.
1265 DR Year of Flowers: Manshoon hears of a floating rock in nearby Teshendale; possibly a remnant of a flying city of Netheril. After meeting the resident beholder; Xantriph, personally the two come to an agreement. The floating rock is declared the Temple in the Sky and the beholder is named the Voice of Bane. It becomes a religious shrine for Banites and Zhentarim and important secrets learned by Xantriph (The Voice of Bane) are passed on to Manshoon.
1270 DR Year of the Tooth: Rumours of the secret society known as the Zhentarim begin to spread among the realms of Faer�n.
The town of Glister is founded by Beldoran (with Zhent sponsorship) around a remote mining settlement in the far reaches of Thar. Attacks from orc and ogre tribes are commonplace but the town grows steadily.
1274 DR: Rumours of dragons and orc hordes grow in the lands north of the Moonsea (Thar) following the ascendance of a giant four armed orc leader named Ghauust. These rumours are spread by Zhentarim agents and the hordes are actually financed by the Zhentarim ready to attack their enemies in the Moonsea.
1275 DR Year of the Blade: Prince Salember is declared regent for his young nephew after the death of his brother Azoun III, king of Cormyr.
Zhentil Keep grants independence to Y�lash. Though officially a free city, it is still quite secure in the grip of the Zhents. This is done to reduce suspicion among the Moonsea cities over Zhentil Keep�s intentions when it later proposes the rebuilding of the Citadel of the Raven.
A flight of black dragons come out of the Thar and attack the cities of the Moonsea. Hulburg and Sulasspryn are severely damaged. Dretchroyaster uses this attack to launch his own assault on Battledale, Tasseldale and Featherdale.
Orc and ogre hordes pour out of Thar and devastate Hulburg and Sulasspryn, they then sweep down and attack Thentia and Melvaunt. Zhentil Keep is spared much of the damage (since it organised the invasion) and sends an army of convicts and political dissidents to relieve the besieged cities of the northern Moonsea. Zhentil Keep then escorts the orc remnants across its territory and into the Dales.
1276 DR Year of the Crumbling Keep: The powers at Zhentil Keep meet with representatives of the other Moonsea cities and suggest that a joint force man the Citadel of the Raven [�18000, 1355] so as to be better prepared for any further invasion attempt from the humanoids of the north. The cities of Hillsfar, Phlan, Mulmaster, Voonlar, Melvaunt, Thentia, Sulasspryn, Y�lash, and Zhentil Keep send forces to repair and occupy the citadel. Some of these cities use criminals, prisoners, and malcontents to make up their forces.
1288 DR Year of the Roaring Horn: The last ogre Tharkul; Maulog, is slain by the human Beldoran. The human kingdom of Thar is established.
1297 DR Year of the Singing Skull: The noble families of Y�lash begin a bitter quarrel among themselves for the lordship of the city.
1303 DR Year of the Evening Sun: An ogre and orc horde from Thar smashes the human kingdom of Thar. This horde was organised and funded by the Zhentarim but once they regained their ancestral lands they became emboldened and marched on the Citadel of the Raven. Thanks to the tactical endeavours of the commander the horde was deflected away but it marched on Phlan[400, 1340], and sacked the city leaving it in ruins (Phlan was well on its way to becoming a Zhent run city). Afterwards the horde turned on the other cities of the northern Moonsea before being massacred on the plains outside Zhentil Keep.
1306 DR Year of Thunder: Moonsea War: Hulburg and Sulasspryn are defeated by Mulmaster [934, 1317]. Mulmaster is later vanquished by an alliance between Sembia, Phlan, Hillsfar, Melvaunt, and Zhentil Keep.
The Dragon Run: An invasion of dragons and their armies sweeps down from Thar and besieges Phlan. The city�s Moonsea allies, still recovering from the Moonsea War, are unable to come to its aid. The citizens of Phlan are quickly massacred, and the city is reduced to ruins.
This Great Flight of dragons is caused by The Cult of The Dragon that uses tactics similar to those used by orc shamans in years past, goading dragons into working together. The flight of dragons ruins Y�lash, heavily damages Zhentil Keep and Melvaunt, and strikes at many other places � including the ruins of Phlan, where it collapses a subterranean temple to Bhaal.
1307 DR Year of the Mace: The Moonsea city of Sulasspryn suddenly and inexplicably collapses on itself, dropping into a large sinkhole. An entire city, and 7,500 people, are crushed in less than ten minutes. Sulasspryn is promptly abandoned for all time.
1312 DR Year of the Griffon: Manshoon himself leads an attack on Darkhold in the Western Heartlands. After slaying the lichqueen Varalla, the fortress is converted into a Zhentarim stronghold. It is rumoured that Manshoon perished during the confrontation but one of his clones quickly replaced him.
1316 DR Year of the Gulagoar: Zhentil Keep marches on Teshendale and lays waste to the town of Teshwave under assertions of growing concern over Cormyr.
1330 DR Year of the Marching Moon: Zhentarim agent begin infiltrating Snowmantle in the Border Forest in Teshendale.
1334 DR Year of the Blazing Brand: Manshoon is named First Lord of the Council of Lords of Zhentil Keep by retiring First Lord Iorltar. Manshoon arranges for the deaths of several Council Lords that have opposed him over the years. He then reorganises the council with Lord Chess as �Watchlord of the Council�, this reorganisation is enforced by Manshoon�s beholder allies.
1336 DR Year of the Highmantle: The Zhentarim conquer Daggerdale.
1337 DR Year of the Wandering Maiden: Y�lashi nobles agree to abolish the lordship and instead rule by council.
The adventuring band known as The Nine, led by Laeral Silverhand, acquires the Crown of Horns [1357] beneath Y�lash after it was planted deliberately by Aumvor the Undying. Laeral [1311, 1357] dons the headpiece and descends into madness. The band fragments into three warring factions, and their lair, known as the Stronghold of the Nine and located along the banks of the Unicorn Run, becomes a battleground.
Manshoon is appointed �High Lord� of Zhentil Keep, with full control of all military forces.
1340 DR Year of the Lion: Tyranthraxus, the Possessing Spirit, claims the Pool of Radiance. From the corrupted body of a bronze dragon, Tyranthraxus assumes control of the Ruins of Phlan [1303, 1375], and rules from beneath Valjevo Castle until he is defeated by adventurers.
1346 DR Year of the Bloodbird: In the spring of the Year of the Bloodbird (1346 DR), after two years of careful exploration of the ruined city of Myth Drannor by Banite agents, the Eighth High Imperceptor of Bane, Szchulan Darkoon, ordered the creation of a portal from the Warrior's Gate to Avernus, first layer of the Nine Hells of Baator. The Dark Lord's followers intended to call forth a limited number of devils to deal with the demons and yugoloths still lurking in the ruins, dating back to the end of the Weeping War. Their plan went awry when Malkizid, the Branded King intervened, causing the portal to remain open and allowing hordes of devils to enter the Realms. Myth Drannor was quickly overrun with devils, but the Banites erected a second sphere of magic encircling the mythal, keeping the legions of the Nine Hells bound within the city's ruins.
1347 DR Year of the Bright Blade: Hulburg [1306] is obliterated by an onslaught of Zhentish forces combined with a horde of orcs. Only a few people remain in the area, mostly in the outlying lands.
1348 DR Year of the Spur: Selfaril [1356] kills his predecessor and becomes High Blade of Mulmaster [1317, 1354].
1350 DR Year of the Morningstar: Elminster [1222, 1357] retires to Shadowdale.
The evil god Bane, in an attempt to increase his own power, tries to draw a group of Moonsea cities into the nether regions. The Heroes of Phlan, who vanquished Tyranthraxus a decade earlier, foil the plot and the cities are returned. The Warhammer of Tyr [1372] is stolen by Bane.
The Knights of Myth Drannor attack the Flaming Tower in Daggerdale and clear out the Temple in the Sky slaying Xantriph, Voice of Bane. They then cut the Temple in the Sky free from its mooring above the Flaming Tower.
The Temple in the Sky was restored to its place above the Flaming Tower and Manshoon allied himself to the beholder Manxam
1352 DR Year of the Dragon: Barbarians of The Ride destroy a large Zhentarim caravan en route to Glister. This is actually an attack by beholders working for Manxam who is allied to the Zhentarim but secretly pursues his own aims.
1353 DR Year of the Arch: Doust Sulwood [1348] retires to Arabel. Mourngrym Amcathra [1355] becomes Lord of Shadowdale.
Randal Morn [1369], of the Morn family of Daggerdale, kills Malyk, a minor Zhentarim mage installed by Zhentil Keep as ruler of Daggerdale, in an attempt to free the dale from Zhent occupation. Folk of Daggerdale join Randal Morn in a roving band of warriors, fighting Zhent mercenaries for control of the dale.
1354 DR Year of the Bow: Maalthiir [1357] becomes the ruler of Hillsfar [673, 1355].
Mulmaster�s [1348, 1356] fleet is destroyed in a large naval battle with ships of Zhentil Keep.
The Zhentarim forge an alliance with the humanoids of the mines of Tethyamar to attack Daggerdale.
1355 DR Year of the Harp: Zhentil Keep attacks its Moonsea allies and takes the Citadel of the Raven [1276, 1357] as its own using its allies, the humanoids of Tethyamar to form an army.
The dwarves of Tethyamar mount an expedition to reclaim the mines of Tethyamar from its humanoid rulers while the army is away fighting for Zhentil Keep. The expedition fails with the unexpected return of the humanoid army.
The humanoids of Tethyamar break their alliance with Zhentil Keep suspecting the dwarves will attack again if they leave to attack Daggerdale. Zhentil Keep removes its mageling troops from the mines of Tethyamar.
Civil war breaks out in Y�lash. Zhentil Keep and Hillsfar [1354, 1357] move troops to Y�lash.
The day after Zhent forces took over the Citadel of the Raven, Zhentilar forces; with the help of those Zhentarim spies in the community, overpowered and enslaved the village of Snowmantle in the Border Forest in Teshendale.
1356 DR Year of the Worm: The Dalelands, Cormyr, and the cities of the Moonsea are devastated by a Flight of Dragons. Sylun� [1300] of the Seven Sisters is slain defending Shadowdale from a great red wyrm.
Cormyr seizes Tilverton [1372], installing a Lady Regent to rule it. The Forest Kingdom does this, in the wake of the weakening of the Dales (particularly Shadowdale), to expand its influence into the Dales, and prevent Zhentil Keep from gaining control over the Dales and the trade route through Tilver�s Gap.
Lashan of Scardale attempts to take over the Dalelands and fails. He vanishes amid the ruins of Myth Drannor.
Lyran the Pretender attacks Shadowdale.
Selfaril [1348, 1366] of Mulmaster [1354, 1366] and the Tharchioness of Thay, also known as the First Princess of Thay, exchange gifts.
1357 DR Year of the Prince: Moander, god of corruption, is accidentally woken from a magical slumber deep beneath the ruins of Y�lash by Alias. An avatar of the Rotting God made a concerted push to reach the city of Myth Drannor, creating Moander's Road from the ruins of Y�lash to roughly the midway point between the two ruined cities.
Maalthiir [1354, 1374] overthrows the council of Hillsfar [1355, 1370] and assumes control of the city.
A force of orthodox Banites led by High Inquisitor Ginali (servant of the High Imperceptor of Bane in Mulmaster) attack the Black Altar of Bane in Zhentil Keep. Fzoul repels the attack and Inquisitor Ginali creates the Dark Shrine of Bane in Zhentil Keep as a rival to the Black Altar.
1358 DR Year of Shadows: The Time of Troubles: Cast out from their otherworldly domains by the overpower Lord Ao, the gods of Toril wander the Realms as mortals. They seek the stolen Tablets of Fate, which are the key to their return. During this dark period, known as the Time of Troubles, magic becomes unpredictable and the prayers of the faithful go unanswered. By its conclusion, Faer�n�s pantheon of gods witnesses the ascendancy of Cyric, Midnight (Mystra), and the Red Knight, the death of Bane, Bhaal, Ibrandul, and Myrkul, and the death and rebirth of Torm.
Accompanied by fire from the sky, Bane�s spirit falls from the heavens, directly on top of the Black Altar, his dark temple in Zhentil Keep. This event is remembered by the Zhents as The Arrival.
1361 DR Year of Maidens: The First Banedeath: The First Banedeath, an inquisition launched by Cyric [1358, 1368] through his agent Xeno Mirrormane, begins as a holy war in Zhentil Keep. Xeno leads the followers of Cyric through the dark, twisted streets of Zhentil Keep in an attempt to cleanse the city of all Banite worship. The Banites are given two choices: worship Cyric or explain to him in person why he is not worthy of worship.
When the followers of Cyric take control of Zhentil Keep, Manshoon quietly makes plans to relocate the Black Network�s main base of operations to the Citadel of the Raven [1357, 1366], secretively and gradually shifting supplies, personnel, and other resources to new quarters there.
1364 DR Year of the Wave: The Sembian Cult of the Dragon [1361, 1365] cell steps up its activities against the Zhentarim, attacking caravans and attempting to usurp control of various trade routes.
Borlin, blood of Ghellin, musters an army of Stout Folk known as the Mithril Legion, which fails to reclaim Tethyamar [1104, 1369] for the dwarves of the Iron House. Borlin and his army die in the depths of the mines.
A bounty is placed on the High Imperceptor of Bane in Mulmaster. The High Imperceptor vanishes and is secretly hiding in Mulmaster.
1366 DR Year of the Staff: By the beginning of this year, the relocation of Zhentarim resources from Zhentil Keep to the Citadel of the Raven [1361] is complete. (When Zhentil Keep is razed during Cyric�s downfall in 1368, the Black Network suffers minimal loss of power, for the leadership and a significant portion of its infrastructure remains intact in the citadel.)
The First Princess of Thay, Dmitra Flass, travels to Mulmaster [1356] to be in the company of High Blade Selfaril [1356, 1368].
1368 DR Year of the Banner: The Second Banedeath: The Church of Cyric [1361, 1369] launches inquisitions in Y�lash, Darkhold, Teshwave, Zhentil Keep, and the Citadel of the Raven to cleanse the Zhent holdings of non-Cyricist priests.
Iyachtu Xvim [734, 1369], godson of Bane, attempts to deceive Lathander into rejoining Tymora and Beshaba back into Tyche. The kender Emilio Haversack is gated to Sigil. He joins Joel, the Rebel Bard, and his companions in thwarting Xvim�s plans.
High Blade Selfaril [1366, 1369] of Mulmaster [1366, 1369] is slain by his twin brother Rassendyll, who assumes his identity. The disguised Selfaril then marries the Tharchioness Dmitra Flass of Eltabbar, a Red Wizard [1365, 1369]. Thay has maintained a noticeable presence in the city ever since. (Dmitra is unaware that her husband has been replaced by Rassendyll, and this state of affairs is unlikely to change since she spends the majority of her time in Eltabbar.)
Cat�s Gate [�489] is unearthed from the sands along the Desertsmouth Mountains [1282]. The portal is seized by agents of Iyachtu Xvim.
Fall of Zhentil Keep: In the last three days of the year, Fzoul Chembryl [1263, 1369] reads aloud from the True Life of Cyric, revealing the dark god�s betrayal of his faithful at Zhentil Keep. Xeno Mirrormane, High Priest of Cyric, is struck by powerful divine fire from Mask. The flames devour Xeno, then proceeded to do likewise to the temple of Cyric. Fzoul flees the falling city to Teshwave as Cyric-summoned giants, dragons, and other monsters sack much of Zhentil Keep.
1369 DR Year of the Gauntlet: Iyachtu Xvim [1368, 1372], the demipower and son of Bane, frees himself from his prison under the ruins of Zhentil Keep, his acolytes raising his status to a lesser god.
Fzoul Chembryl [1368, 1370] is temporarily possessed by Xvim, who sets Fzoul on the path to rule Xvim�s church. Fzoul allies with the High Blade of Mulmaster [1368] in exchange for the whereabouts of the two Imperceptors of Bane in his city. Khelben [1367, 1370] and Fzoul meet secretly in Voonlar, where Khelben provides Fzoul with information about Lord Orgauth, and Fzoul vows to limit the Xvimlar�s eastward expansion for 10,000 days.
The armies set upon Zhentil Keep by Cyric [1368, 1371] remain entrenched around the besieged city. Lord Orgauth rallies the troops that remain and assumes control of the Keep with no opposition.
1370 DR Year of the Tankard: The Manshoon Wars: Fzoul Chembryl [1369, 1374] slays Manshoon and purges the Zhentarim of Manshoon�s supporters, giving him control over most of the organization. Several clones of Manshoon awake at the same time and create havoc throughout Faer�n. Fzoul forges the Sceptre of the Tyrant�s Eye.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 19 Jan 2014 20:30:16

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 22:13:46

Oops that was the wrong version. Thats the early draft. The finished timeline is much bigger.
I will have to sort it out tomorrow night now.

Dalor Darden
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Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 23:50:51

One thing to keep in mind about the Cult of the Dragon is that Manshoon actually has influence over the Moonsea area Cult of the Dragon...

Ed Greenwood has mentioned on several occasions that Manshoon has far more influence than people realize!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 18 Jan 2014 : 07:18:06

Well influence and control are two different things but it makes sense that he has his fingers in multiple pies.

Maybe Manshoon wanted to move zhentarim headquarters to the citadel of the raven all along. He knew fzoul would try and hamper him so he had the cult organise repeated dragon attacks on the moonsea and zhentil keep.
Fzoul then comes up with the idea to move the headquarters and pesters manshoon until he relents.
That way manshoon gets what he wanted all along and no one gets in his way

Dalor Darden
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Posted - 18 Jan 2014 : 22:44:03

My own take is that by controlling (most likely) at least one cell of the Cult of the Dragon in the Thar area, Manshoon gains control of forces to attack the Moonsea Cities that doesn't implicate the Zhentarim or the Zhentilar.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

The Arcanamach
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1842 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2014 : 23:10:26

Just want to note that p. 70 of the Book of Lairs (REF3 from 1st edition DnD) has a lair of thri-kreen that, while not specifically connected to the Realms, has a definite Realms 'feel' to it. There is a giant gold thri-kreen statue and a smaller statuette of a butterfly that speaks to the party. It's an interesting read if nothing else.

Anyhow, anymore info on the thri-kreen Dalor?

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.

Dalor Darden
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Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 07:00:19

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Just want to note that p. 70 of the Book of Lairs (REF3 from 1st edition DnD) has a lair of thri-kreen that, while not specifically connected to the Realms, has a definite Realms 'feel' to it. There is a giant gold thri-kreen statue and a smaller statuette of a butterfly that speaks to the party. It's an interesting read if nothing else.

Anyhow, anymore info on the thri-kreen Dalor?

The only information on the Thri-Kreen in the area that is really canon is from the module Ruins of Adventure.

Anything after that (such as saying they were the Horreb) is purely speculation...though someone who wrote extensively on the area (Brian R. James) said he thought that the Horreb being the Thri-Kreen was a solid idea!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 20:36:47

Ok new timeline detailing Thar and the Moonsea (since the two are closely intertwined).

I apologise for not bolding all the years but its a pain.

I just noticed something the other day after reading polyhedron that I think explains why there is no mention of Horreb, Barze, or Grong Haap by the elves of Cormanthor.

In the Elminsters Ecologies there are references to Land of the Beast Men which is Thar.

However in one of the Polyhedron magazines (80+) and in the blurb about Abarat's Tower it mentions the Beast Marches. I assumed the Beast Marches and the Land of the Beast Men were the same, but in fact they aren't.

The Beast Marches were a stretch of woodland along the northern coast of the Moonsea that were infested with a cluster of Deepspawn that spewed monsters out constantly. This was eventually cleared by humans and dwarves by an event called "The Burning" and much to the elves protests, the forest wasn't replanted.

This was probably the event that opened up the northern moonsea to human colonisation so I reckon it occurred before the founding of Phlan and maybe Northkeep (or maybe after Northkeep but before Phlan). But either way, the elves didn't mention Horreb and Barze etc because they didn't know about them.

I still reckon the thri-kreen bit is down to Tyranthraxus being a kind of super mutagen that twisted anything he got near.

Jakuta Khan
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496 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 23:00:19

Might be completely stupid question, but are there any more references to the beastmen or "Bullmen" of Grong-haap? Or were These simply Minotaurs?

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 09:07:47

Well I have never found any reference to Grong Haarp in anything other than the Dragon Article detailing Haask voice of Hargut. And in that it only mentioned it was a nation of minotaurs led by Haask who was posing as a greathorn minotaur (from MM3 or 4 i think).

I would imagine as a nation it was rather like a collection of orc clans into a single orc tribe. So there would be numerous family groupings with their own leader, these leaders reported directly to Haask and did whatever he said (on pain of death i would imagine). Such a "nation" is typical for primitive humanoids.

And then Edranka and his army of goblinoids smashed the nation to pieces. I find it curious that no further mention of minotaurs is made anywhere else in the Moonsea. I guess they could have fled underground but i have another thought. Summoning a primordial being must require an enormous feat of magic. Maybe as a last ditch effort to save himself Haask sacrificed all the minotaurs of his nation to fuel a ritual to call Hargut from the Far Realm (or free him from a planar prison beneath Ironfang Keep). And thats why there arent any minotaurs in the Moonsea.

The term beastmen in the Moonsea area was used by the elves to refer to the ogres of Thar. Although you have given me a thought that this reference might indicate humans combined with animals (beast-men) which i alluded to in my bit about Tyranthraxus having a mutation effect on the people of Horreb and Barze. Of course Grong Haarp was before that event so it makes no difference to the minotaurs.

Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe

496 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 11:54:31

Well, beastmen with me rings always a bell with Warhammer Fantasy.

The beastmen there this is what springs up in my head. In D&D These are similar to Goatfolk, but goatfolk are neutral. These I would have imagined to be referred to as Beastmen as well
What I just find a bit difficult to see is the regional Stretch in all These stories. But thats just me....

Is there any oher reference to goatfolk or similar in the moonsea Region?

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 12:06:23

Ibixian's, or goatfolk as they are otherwise known were created in the depths of Ironfang Keep (note that is the same Ironfang Keep that was inhabited by Haask (and Hargut) ruler of Grong Haarp).

They were created in 703 DR, probably by the current inhabitants which are said to be mages that specialise in kidnapping people from all over Faerun and twisting them with their maigcal experiments.

Jakuta Khan
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496 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 12:42:36

That answers my questions perfectly well I think. That explains the term "Beastmen" as the goatfolk are then seemingly just one form of their creations

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 13:04:14

Mutations and combined creatures seems to be a common occurence in the lands around the Moonsea.

Maybe Hargut had been active in the area for quite a long time before his banishment or imprisonment beneath Ironfang Keep that Haask sought to reverse.

Markustay
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Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 16:09:27

I connect 'Goatmen' to Runequest, not WH.

Not really loving that reference to the Ibixian in that manner - it means no-one can ever use them for anything else.

Ancient depictions of Fomorians often have them with goat-heads, unlike the 'melted' look D&D gave them. Considering the high occurrence of Fey in that region, you could possibly connect that as well. Interestingly, whilst looking for a good illustration of that, I came across THIS, which is a minotaur, but apparently part of a 'Fomorian army' for that game. Might be worth looking into and borrowing from.

EDIT: Thinking further on all of that...
Awhile back I had concluded that there are (at least) two 'tiers' in giantdom, one planer, and one terrestrial (Prime Material). We have examples of greater and lesser Titans, Cyclops, and Fomorians, and folklore regarding some others (Frost and Fire) would make them appear to be on-par with gods, even.

So what if the modern (Torillian) Fomorians are descendents of the ancient planer ones, but mixed with all that 'beastman' blood? That fomorians living on the material plane are all misshapen cross-breeds? That would also help expalin why they are so different from setting-to-setting. The ancient 'Fomorian kings' were more like archfey, and they use their 'seed' to empower their minions (much as dragons do, come to think of it).

So instead of Ibixian being some form of human/goat crossbreed, or even an empowered Saytr (like those WoW ones), what if they are the result of (greater) Fomorians mixing with humans, elves, etc? Or they could even be the result of Fomorians mixing with Saytrs (although I like to think the horns may have come from the Fomorians - I have to check the 4e sources to see what they did with them).

EDIT2: Okay, just checked - the 4e ones are just bigger versions of the melted ones {sigh}. Opportunity missed, and all that. I find it interesting that Fomorians are not listed with the other giants - they have their own entry (which should signify that the 4e designers hadn't considered them part of the 'giants' group, I guess for mechanical purposes). What I found even more interesting is that 4e did indeed create TWO TIERS of each giant - a 'normal' version, and then the 'titan' version. The more I look into 4e lore, the more I realize its very similar to my own homebrew. Not sure how I feel about that......

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 01 Apr 2014 23:05:08

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 16:36:19

Oh dear, i dread that day coming. If i ever create anything that resembles 4e i shall have to perform a self lobotomy just to make sure the idea never infects the real world.

That being said, im sure its just a coincidence Markus.

Although i never did fancy the idea of unnecessary complexity. I prefer to just rewrite giant history so they only exist once (and to get the date of Ulutiu's death right -25500 DR not -2550 DR)

Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe

496 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 17:08:26

@markustay:
Goatmen i totally agree, they were the "bruu" in runequest, right?

For me the beastmen are basically human bodies covered in fur eventually with hooves and sporting different animal heads.

Markustay
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Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 18:56:31

I think it was spelled 'Broo', but yeah, I always liked those guys. I loved old runequest lore and creatures, and how all 'creatures of chaos' got one (or more) chaotic ability. Come to think of it, Runequest invented 'Spellscarred' long before AD&D ever came around (except it was 'marked by chaos', but the same idea).

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Oh dear, i dread that day coming. If i ever create anything that resembles 4e i shall have to perform a self lobotomy just to make sure the idea never infects the real world.

That being said, im sure its just a coincidence Markus.

Actually, going by stuff I've been hearing elsewhere (from people who actually enjoy 4e), a lot of its problem was with presentation, which I always surmised. When I read particular bits of 4e lore, I'm like, "thats not so bad", but the way its just shoveled at us, with different terminology (Eladrin) and with little to no connection to past lore, it all became very jarring. Had things been done differently (a kinder, gentler approach, rather the 'the sledgehammer of doom' we got), things might have gone very differently with us and 4e.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Although I never did fancy the idea of unnecessary complexity. I prefer to just rewrite giant history so they only exist once (and to get the date of Ulutiu's death right -25500 DR not -2550 DR)

Yeah, the giant lore is pretty bad, as-is. It needs a complete overhaul. Perhaps this time they can get someone to write FR stuff that isn't just writing something about their personal homebrew, and then forcing it into FR without absolutely any knowledge of FR or its glorious past?

And why is that man writing a Sundering novel?

5eFR is the perfect opportunity to get rid of all the crap that didn't belong in FR in the first place. By leaving it all in, whether it be 1e, 2e, 3e, or 4e, they are just compounding all the errors. I want a clean slate, not a dirty one.

And the giant-lore is the first place they need to start - its a confusing mess. We need some details about the Dragon/Giant wars, and how the elves and dwarves tie-into all that. I actually like some of RAS's ideas regarding the giants - too bad he doesn't do design work anymore. Then again, the giants would all be named something like Shnampfoozle or some-such.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2014 18:57:45

Markustay
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Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 20:48:19

Not sure if I missed it earlier in the thread, but you guys are aware of the article on Thar by Rich Baker, correct?

I am only thinking about this now because I am currently re-reading the article myself (more map-stuff).

I had forgotten that 4e turned Ogre Magi into the Wang-Liang (K-T MM) - a type of tiefling Ogre - which makes perfect sense. In fact, I had done just that in the old K-T thread over at WotC, before 4e was even announced. I wonder what Oni were doing that far west? I guess demons will be demons, after all. Also, IIRC, Flinds are fiend-augmented gnolls (probably Rakshasa blood), so it seems fiends have had a long history in this region.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 21:17:19

Yeah I mined that article first, then moved onto the elminsters ecologies, then found the Maram article in dragon and then tried to put it all together.

Cant say I'm fond of any of the 4e creature lore, they just mush stuff up without any rhyme or reason from what I can see

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 22:11:23

What I mean is why does anything have to be anything else because of a new religion.

Why are elves now eladrin from another plane

Why are ogre magi now demons

Why are gods really other gods in disguise.

Ogres are ogres, ogre magi are like ogres but with spellcasting ability. There is no need to mess with thing unnecessarily.

That being said, ogres consorting with demons to gain spellcasting ability kind of makes a bit of sense. But then isn't Vaprak a bit demonic?

Markustay
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Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 02:06:03

Well, the Ogre-magi of D&D were based on the Orienatl Wang-Liang, which were Oni (demon) crossbreeds; its just that D&D hadn't bothered to play that aspect up until 4e.

In the Oriental material, they didn't have different types of giants, and in fact, it almost seems as if their one type of giant was more of larger, more advanced ogre (more like huge human savages then the typical bestial brute). Thus, if the Oni were breeding with them (they seem similar to the Icespire Ogres in some ways), it would make sense that they created a superior, magic-using ogre.

Think of it as 'new information learned' then an actual change, because unlike many other things (Eladrin), it makes perfect sense in retrospect.

Also, the Ulutiuns (of the Great Glacier) are actually a tribe of Issacortae (from northern K-T) that wandered across the top of the world and settled there, so it makes some sense that they brought their Oriental traditions (and monsters) with them.

I agree that a lot of the 4e material (and what we've seen of the D&Dnext material) has that 'kitchen sink' feel, like they just toss as much in as they can, just because they can. I think I understand the reasoning behind it (keep the players guessing/surprised, which = fun), but from a lore/fan-setting perspective, it looks a bit haphazard. Hopefully that will all work itself out by the time we see the new sourcebooks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2014 02:08:33

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