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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 20:41:25
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Alright folks, i know the title can be misinterpreted but that it's not what i'm talking about.
I'm asking about the fact it's said in Faiths & Pantheons and Faiths & Avatars that Selune spent some time as a deity subservient of Sune and just recently went her own way again.
Is there somewhere i can look for elaboration on this divine matter? When did it start/end (roughly)? How did Selune came under Sune's guidance and not Lathander/Amaunator/Chauntea/Ilmater's or any other good deity with which she has a friendly relationship? Is this past collaboration the reason why Sune snatched Sharess from Shar's clutches during the Time of Troubles?
Leaving divine dealings in their obscure mist, is there any trace in temples, faiths, heresies or specific clerical orders that reflect the past affiliation of Selune or her relationship with Sune?
Thanks everyone!
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 21:44:54
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| just wondering, can you provide the quotes or at least page numbers? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 02:42:07
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Selune is one of the most ancient, primordial gods of Realmspace - her being subservient to a 'love goddess' doesn't sound right at all.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Sharess? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2013 02:42:45 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 04:13:51
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I don't know the page but I know Selune was subservient to Sune. Forgotten realms wiki says Faiths and Pantheons page 66.
Selune used to be the goddess of beauty in Netheril so it makes sense they would have a relationship. I have never seen Sune's relationship with Selune fully explained. I have wondered if Sune was once a mortal who ascended to divinity or was somehow related to Selune in some other way? Selune's power waxes and wanes. Presumably this was at a low point in her power, strategically, or even emotionally (in so far s God's have emotions) Selune is a damaged goddess and may need relationships like that as time goes on. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 05:09:06
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Forgotten realms wiki is full of really weird local fanon.
Relationship with whom?
As to the gods of Netheril -
Selūne: Moon, moonlight, stars, dreams, purity, beauty, love, marriage, navigation, navigators, tracking, wanderers, seekers, diviners, good and neutral lycanthropes, autumn.
Sune: absent. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 10:44:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
just wondering, can you provide the quotes or at least page numbers?
Sure thing.
From Faiths & Avatars page 135, 4th paragraph of the initial description:
"Before the Time of Troubles, Selune had served Sune for some centuries after being indipendent for millennia. After the Godswar, she went her own way again. Her relationship with Sune and Lliira is still extremely friendly and cooperative."
From Faiths & Pantheons page 56, 2nd paragraph of the "History/Relationships" section:
"Selune's power seems to be on the rise. Prior to the Time of Troubles, her potency had ebbed to the point that she was a servitor of Sune Firehair. In the last decade, however, she has once again branched out on her own, forging new alliances in her eternal battle against her dark sister." |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 10:47:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Sharess?
Absolutely, i won't confuse Sharess with any other being. Ever.  |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 10:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Forgotten realms wiki is full of really weird local fanon.
It's in both Faiths & ... books, i don't consider those weird local fanon.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Relationship with whom?
Uh, maybe it's me translating poorly into english but i'm not impliyng a romance or anything like that (but that's not out of the picture even, considering the nature of both goddesses we are talking about) but more about a collaboration and cooperation related to their divine jobs.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
As to the gods of Netheril -
Selūne: Moon, moonlight, stars, dreams, purity, beauty, love, marriage, navigation, navigators, tracking, wanderers, seekers, diviners, good and neutral lycanthropes, autumn.
Sune: absent.
Yep, so we can exclude this "thing" started prior to the Fall of Netheril so we have a range of -339 DR --> 1358 DR. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 14:21:14
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| Hmmm, so maybe it was a case of Selune was sharing out her power to multiple pantheon's moon deities and thus had her power level adjusted by Ao (after all, there was the drow moon goddess, the elf moon goddess, the Mulhorandi moon deity, the Untheric Moon deity <who was dead at that time>, the dwarven moon deity, etc...). However, once it became faith-based after the ToT, the amount of faith energy flowing to Selune as opposed to other moon deities started "outshining" them. Especially since it states before the ToT and that its only changed "in the last decade". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 16:01:29
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We may be looking at things a bit too figuratively, because we are not gods and don't truly understand these types of relationships.
It could just be that the Netherse (mistakenly?) revered Selune as a goddess of beauty, and Selune made a pact with Sune to handle that stuff for her.
The similarities in names does lead one to believe its a bit deeper then that, though. I tried to find a 'Greek connection' by looking into Selene and Aphrodite's affiliations (there aren't any), because as most of us know, Sune = Venus spelled backwards (minus the 'V'). The similarities between Selene and Selune doesn't really need to be pointed out.
One odd thing did occur to me while looking through some of that mythology - the Greeks also had two sun deities: Helios represented the sun itself, and Apollo came to represent its virtues. Sounds kind of similar to Aumanator and Lathander, no? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2013 16:02:18 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 16:17:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, so maybe it was a case of Selune was sharing out her power to multiple pantheon's moon deities and thus had her power level adjusted by Ao (after all, there was the drow moon goddess, the elf moon goddess, the Mulhorandi moon deity, the Untheric Moon deity <who was dead at that time>, the dwarven moon deity, etc...). However, once it became faith-based after the ToT, the amount of faith energy flowing to Selune as opposed to other moon deities started "outshining" them. Especially since it states before the ToT and that its only changed "in the last decade".
Uhm i don't know, as you say it may have been the only recorded case in canonical history of an actual change in deific power due to Ao's changing the rules (paraphrasing "You have to care for your worshippers now!"), so Selune, having a big worship-base, got a power bump and regained her indipendence.
There is still the problem of how she came to be in Sune's employ in the first place.
Maybe it's the infamous Dawn Cataclysm striking again (Lathander:" Hey Sune, whanna come to the party at Cynosure with me? No? What if i make Selune one of your servitors? Yeah i can do it, honest! Great! I'll pick you up at the gates of Brightwater in a few just let me finish this little experiment of mine ...")
Anyway, divine dealings are mysterious and all that jazz and i'm more interested in heresies, fringe faiths and strange affiliated orders, nothing like that in this case? |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 16:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It could just be that the Netherse (mistakenly?) revered Selune as a goddess of beauty, and Selune made a pact with Sune to handle that stuff for her.
Can be, Selune is the deity that epitomizes collaboration, tollerance and respect among faiths/races/genders, so it's the one most inclined to arrange things peacefully with other deities without stepping on anyone's toes. It still strikes me as odd that this thing dragged on until the Tot, i mean, as you previously said, Selune is one of the firsts (or THE first, with her evil twin sister) deities so even when striking a bargain i suppose she wouldn't be subservient to anyone without a really good reason, plus Sune doesn't strike me as the domineering sort.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One odd thing did occur to me while looking through some of that mythology - the Greeks also had two sun deities: Helios represented the sun itself, and Apollo came to represent its virtues. Sounds kind of similar to Aumanator and Lathander, no?
At least they had both, not just one every X years, plus Lathander is funnier than another Torm/Tyr/Helm clone wannabe, i mean you killed of two just to give us back another identical one? Sorry, i digress ... |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 17:42:30
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| I think this has to do with the Selūne's-power-waxing-and-waning-like-the-moon thing. So at one of the points where it was in its most wan she became a junior partner of Sune for awhile. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 17:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
At least they had both, not just one every X years, plus Lathander is funnier than another Torm/Tyr/Helm clone wannabe, i mean you killed of two just to give us back another identical one? Sorry, i digress ...
Well, yeah, RW mythology is way more realistic then most of the 'recent' lore we've gotten. LOL
Still, a good chunk of Selune's power probably still resides in Mystra, so it could be that she is not nearly as powerful as she was originally (unlike Shar, who's been slowly taking her power back over the milenia, and seems to have gotten the major portion of it back when Karsus cast his spell). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2013 17:55:37 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 19:13:02
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You are arguing whether this relationship exists or existed. It is canonical that it did. The original post wanted to know if there was more information on the subject. Unless Ed wrote about this specifically I doubt there was any such elaboration.
I believe there was a comic book related to this, however. I read it a long time ago and do not have access to it. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 05:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
From Faiths & Avatars page 135, 4th paragraph of the initial description:
"Before the Time of Troubles, Selune had served Sune for some centuries after being indipendent for millennia. After the Godswar, she went her own way again. Her relationship with Sune and Lliira is still extremely friendly and cooperative."
From Faiths & Pantheons page 56, 2nd paragraph of the "History/Relationships" section:
"Selune's power seems to be on the rise. Prior to the Time of Troubles, her potency had ebbed to the point that she was a servitor of Sune Firehair. In the last decade, however, she has once again branched out on her own, forging new alliances in her eternal battle against her dark sister."
It would be cool to get the Word of the Demiurge on this, of course. 
But in my own interpretation:
Selune stepped back and let Sune be the spokeswoman for a loose alliance of CG-ish deities, after giving one of her domains, probably because Firehair's attractiveness and drive made her well fit for being the "face" of a team, and she needed promotion early on. Meanwhile, Selune herself had a whole army of planetars billeting on Prime and all that, but her activities were mostly reduced to the support roles.
Which also allowed her to dedicate more efforts and resources to opposing and limiting Shar - and given that the latter still managed to pull stunts like the one described in "Temptation of Elminster", the advantage of having someone watching for this should have been obvious for other interested parties as well. Speaking of which, the promotion of Sune did pay off - with saving Sharess.
Now she have to feed herself, but the same applies to Shar. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 07:23:38
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My take on it is that Suné is actually Selūne's daughter or a fragment of her, which is for all intents and purposes the same thing. If we check Selūne's portfolio in the Netheril Box Set, you can see that before the Fall of Netheril it included Beauty, Love and Marriage, but that today it no longer does, as she has passed them on to her daughter, Suné.
My chronology dates Suné's birth to sometime between -339 DR and 700 DR, which is roughly contemporaneous with the greater scope of the time period that comprises the Dawn Cataclysm. Suné arose in the Talfiric proto-pantheon originally, before the pantheon merged with several others to form the greater Faerūnean pantheon, a process which took place over centuries but had begun to shake out by the Fall of Myth Drannor.
Suné's fiery hair points strongly to her father being Lathander, also of the Talfiric pantheon. Selūne, as one of the original creator goddesses of Realmspace, is actually a trans-pantheonic deity, with a presence or at least knowledge of her, to some degree (though not necessarily the same name or form), in many, if not most pantheons and cultures of Toril.
I surmise that, after Amaunator "set," and Lathander "rose," Lathander began a relationship with Selūne, and they had at least the one daughter, Suné (possibly other children too.) I am not sure if Lathander and Selūne were formally wed. It could have been just a torrid affair. Lathander is known for starting things, but not so much for sticking with them. But for all I know, Selūne might have been Lathander's official Queen Consort in the Pre-Greater-Faerūnean, Talfiric pantheon. Regardless of how long their relationship or marriage or consortship lasted, in godly time, it still could have lasted for several decades or centuries even. Even short flings among gods can last the duration of several lifetimes for mortal beings.
Likewise, Suné probably had a prolonged divine infancy and childhood. She might have also remained a child for decades (or centuries) but I imagine her mother was very doting during this period. And probably her father too, for a time. It was only natural for her mother to gift her with the portfolios of Beauty and Love when she blossomed into womanhood. Although, I tend to think she got the portfolio of Passion from her father.
It is, ironically, I think, the loss of his Passion that signalled the end of Lathander's relationship with Selūne. I feel certain that Selūne consoled herself by devoting her energies towards nurturing her daughter.
The sources characterize this period as Selūne "serving" Suné; but I rather think of it as her mother stepping out of the limelight to let her daughter shine. She served Selūne only as a nursemaid, caring mother, counselor and helpmate. Selūne is an incredibly ancient entity. She has known great power, which has waned repeatedly and waxed again with time. As the goddess of the moon, she is comfortable with the cyclical nature of her light, and was content to let her daughter eclipse her for a time.
I feel that surely all these relationships and the myths and details surrounding the family were very well known during the heyday of the Talfiric pantheon. The stories surrounding Lathander and Selūne (by whatever name she was known to the Talfirs) meeting, falling in love, having a child (or children) and all the ups and downs and lurid details of their falling out, would have been as well known in the early centuries of Dale Reckoning as the tabloid stories of our celebrities are known to us today (longer, even, than our tabloid stories last in common memory). But with all the chaos and tumult of the Dawn Cataclysm, the disappearance of the Talfirs as a distinct group with their absorption into the Greater Faerūnean culture, and with the passing of the centuries, these particular myths and relationships seem to have lost their currency.
Of course, alternatively, these myths could just be such well known facts within the myths of those respective deities that it's taken as common knowledge and just never comes up in the lore we see. I don't know if the answer then is that the lore is merely forgotten, or so well known that it escapes mention. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 08:37:37
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| I LOVE IT!!! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 10:39:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
snipped for brevity
Great thoughts, as always.
Yet, i'm not convinced, probably because of my own pre-conceptions about Faerunian gods and pantheons or something like that.
Some of the points that don't sound right to me (this is purely personal speculation):
- Sune as a young deity: we have enough "less than 2000 years old deities", putting more and more of them in this category cheapens the Dark Three history and that's something i dislike, why? Because the Dark Three did all that they did after their ascension because they were upstart power-hungry ascended mortals new to godhood, so they butted heads with other deities, conspired to ruin Ao's weekend and so on and so forth. Putting more deities in their "new, young and experimentig" category cheapens their actions turning them into "3 of many" whereas they deserve to be "THE divine Trio" of myth and legend.;
- Sune as the daughter of deities: adding to the above, i think the fact that the human/main Faerunian Pantheon hasn't a lot of "daughter of this, son of that, grandpa of the uncle's sister's cousin's son" ecc... it's an interesting and appropriate twist of the different divine takes we see in mythology or other fantasy settings. Furthermore the impression i got from the FR Pantheon is that there is some sort of "non proliferation" rule probably enforced by Ao or the council of Greater deities or something, that forbids the conception and birth of purely and fully divine beings (meaning that if a deity wants to toy with his/her/its favorite mortals he/she/it can do so and make the offspring a Chosen/Exarch/Demipower/Quasideity/Immortal or whatever flavor of the lesser divine ranks suits you, but more than that and the Uber Divine Ban Hammer of Doom descends on the heads of the guilties to smite the newborn and maybe the parents too). In my view this would be an interesting twist, fits nicely with the whole "more Pantheons merging together, we can't have 2 of the same" and the kindred argument "1 portfolio element for 1 deity only, no clones/copies/replicants" thus preventing deities from just going on a rampage and flooding the planes with their easily manipulated toddlers. To add a bit of canonical hint of this: why Talos should provide convoluted ways for mortals to ascend to godhood and then exploit them if he can just mate with/rape Auril/Umberlee (just to stay comfortably at home, he could do the same to other deities but that will cause divine uproar probably) and exploit the newborn in the same way (or even feed on his essence at birth or crude, vile things like that)? Because then Ao would smite him with the Uber Divine Ban Hammer of Doom, obviously (to me).
Now, on to the portfolios conundrum: i caught myself in error more than one time thinking that since we have full access only to the Netherese pantheon (with portfolio elements and rough estimates of its "lifetime") then just checking that against the ones in Faiths & Avatars and Faiths & Pantheons would give me all the insight needed to judge divinely matters. The misconception here is thinking that the other pantheons (Talfiric/Rus/Chondatan ecc...) did nothing when things got mixed up after the Fall of Netheril and populations started merging together, so by this misconception Sune got the portfolio elements directly from Selune, while now i think the closer to truth possibility is that both had common portfolio elements and they settled their dispute peacefully (whereas Gargus/Garagos and Tempus clashed, Amaunator was phased out of worship by Lathander, Kyputitto and Talona killed off two cities to triumph, ecc...).
Chasing the portfolio elements down the rabbit hole, Shar (from Netheril) either gave birth to lots of deities (some alone, like Leira and Mask, some with someone else like Bhaal and Bane) or those deities came out on top in the multi-power-struggle that went on for some time during the years of pantheon merging upheaval.
Furthermore Jergal would've been "father" of Bane with Shar (hatred) and Kozah(!! strife) as the other parents, of Bhaal with Shar (murder) and of Myrkul with Selune (autumn) and Moander (!!!!!! parasites, corruption, decay). Now, without going ahead with the weird and stomach-turning imagery of an insectoid mating with a decaying rotting blob of unidentified matter under the moonlight, i think it's way better for everyone if the portfolios shake up is attributed to divine struggles and not divine mating (i'm still excluding the chance of both due to my view of divine birth, see above). This has the interesting side effect of letting our imagination run wild with divine battlefields on the Outer Planes and Jergal guiding the Dark Three on a wild scavenger trophy hunt to snatch power and portfolio elements from the dead or weakened deities (something that gets on well with the opportunistic nature of the Dark Three and with what little we know of Jergal: smart fellow, calculating, dark humor, bored and with scores to settle with all other divine beings that were stealing "his" souls). That's why the Dark Three have portfolio elements of other deities beside Jergal (Shar, Moander, Kozah, Selune) and that's why there are a lot of alliances/friendships and enmities among the gods that so far we have attributed to "human" feelings and relationships but may very well be born of the struggles of the Great Merging Times: so those that settled things peacefully stayed close and friendly (Sune and Selune for example), those that warred hate each other (Tempus and Garagos) and those that teamed up against the big boys/girls got on well for a time (Bane, Bhaal, Leira and Mask all got something from Shar and their ALLIES lists from Faiths & Avatars reflect this [for Bane: Bhaal and Mask among others; for Bhaal: Bane and Mask among others; for Leira: just Mask; for Mask: Bane, Bhaal, Leira and a few others]).
Anyway, that's what i think on the divine, for me things work better like this but that's not to discount the obvious merits of your insightful thoughts, Gray Richardson.
Back on topic: someone said something about a comic? Where? When? How? Any reference you can give, MrHedgehog? Anyone knows what he's talking about?
Thanks everyone for the great discussion thus far. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 13:20:14
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My own theory is a bit different then Gray's, but it could shoe-horn with his because of the very nature of gods.
I think Selune split into Sune and Hanali Celanil (probably due to a mortal rising to the ranks of Exarch, and her granting them some portfolios, just as Gray surmised). At that level of power, there is no difference between 'giving birth' and creating whole-cloth from one's own essence (mythology is full of strange 'births').
Now, this means those two are separate beings, and yet are part of a greater whole (which also helps explain some of the 4e weirdness).
The funny thing is, this ties in directly to some of my etymology musing, where I have 'El' being the ancient fey word for Elf (literally, 'offspring'). 'Eld' would be the plural form (thus, Eldar/Elder/etc). So if Selune removed her 'elfy' bits, she may have literally removed the 'el' from her name and created Sune, and Hanali would have been that 'el' part.
Post-Spellplague, when magic was running amok, many of these self-aware aspects may have been forcibly re-joined for a time.
Just another theory, mind you. As I said, it could shoe-horn with Gray's, simply because deific procreation is very different (and varied) from how mortals handle such things. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2013 13:22:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 19:37:58
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I agree that making Sune a "newborn deity" seems to lessen the actions of the Dark Three. However, I also note that Faiths and Avatars states
"One power, Tyche, split into two deities, Beshaba and Tymora, and this occurrence has had precedent. When necessary, powers seem to be able to carve themselves into at least
two separate pieces, with at least one of the parts becoming an entirely different being."
Perhaps the original moon deity split herself into Selune and Sune. When this happened, perhaps her aspect that was into love was more powerful and protected her other astrological aspect. When might this have occurred? That would require research. Why might this have occurred? That's a good question, and the answer would revolve around whether the split was on purpose or as the result of interaction with another deity. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 19:59:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
"One power, Tyche, split into two deities, When necessary, powers seem to be able to carve themselves into at least
two separate pieces,
I always assumed this part from F&A was meant to refer to the tri-partite sun god of dawn, highsun and dusk, it never occured to me to consider Selune and Sune as part of this process (hmm off to ponder!)
Personally I much prefer Gray's previous post regarding Sune being a daughter of Selune and Latahander, and Selune 'serving' Sune by stepping asides whilst Selune was waxing into the full moon of her divinity.
Excellent thread this!
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 21:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I agree that making Sune a "newborn deity" seems to lessen the actions of the Dark Three. However, I also note that Faiths and Avatars states
"One power, Tyche, split into two deities, Beshaba and Tymora, and this occurrence has had precedent. When necessary, powers seem to be able to carve themselves into at least
two separate pieces, with at least one of the parts becoming an entirely different being."
Perhaps the original moon deity split herself into Selune and Sune. When this happened, perhaps her aspect that was into love was more powerful and protected her other astrological aspect. When might this have occurred? That would require research. Why might this have occurred? That's a good question, and the answer would revolve around whether the split was on purpose or as the result of interaction with another deity.
Eh, if i remember correctly it was Selune herself that split Tyche, upon detecting Moander's corruption of her (it's somewhere on the sourcebooks but i can't remember where i read it: Selune, Lathander and Azuth were all waiting for Tyche's return in her home plane, Selune detected Moander's presence and split Tyche with a bolt of energy).
The fact Selune was serving Sune "for some centuries" before 1358 DR seems to imply it was something that lasted way less than a thousand years.
Uhm, it can be that Selune had to weaken herself to expand in the Durpari region with the rising of her Lucha aspect in the Adama (either -256 when the belief started to see public recognition or -112 when it became state religion in Var the Golden). This meant that when her power waned (that may have had something to do with the Eye of Myrkul's phenomenon, a thing about which we know too little but i would love to know more) she was too weak to fend off her dark sister's attacks and protect her clergy and sought shelter in Sune's embrace. She recouped the losses and then some when Ao established that number of worshippers = power and got the boost from the durpari followers she had "invested in" so long ago.
I think cutting it too clearly and saying she was under Sune's guidance from -256 or -112 DR to 1358 DR is a bit too much, so something else had to happen to "force" her in a subordinate position. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 21:19:18
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What if Sune is an aspect of Selune left over after the Dawn Cataclysm? A portion of Sune's power lost in the tumult of that event as Selune, via her love for the Realms, tried to keep creation (or just Aumanator/Lathander) from falling apart.
Selune's time after wasn't spent under Sune so much as time recovering and time guiding this new aspect of herself into full godhood.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 21:22:35
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| For those concerned with timeline and cheapening the Dark Three...who's to say when Sune would have been born? We do know that Selune and Shar are two of the most ancient deities in the Forgotten Realms...Selune created the first and second sun along with all of the stars...in a manner of speaking she would have had a hand in creating Amaunator and Lathander (or at least aiding to their arrival in the Realms)...so who is to say that following the War of Light and Darkness Selune wasn't taken by the newly arrived Lathander and the result was Sune...and with Lathander being a part of the Talfiric pantheon then so became Sune...and so what Gray put forth is completely plausible given that time for gods (primordials) is much different... |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 22:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
For those concerned with timeline and cheapening the Dark Three...who's to say when Sune would have been born? We do know that Selune and Shar are two of the most ancient deities in the Forgotten Realms...Selune created the first and second sun along with all of the stars...in a manner of speaking she would have had a hand in creating Amaunator and Lathander (or at least aiding to their arrival in the Realms)...so who is to say that following the War of Light and Darkness Selune wasn't taken by the newly arrived Lathander and the result was Sune...and with Lathander being a part of the Talfiric pantheon then so became Sune...and so what Gray put forth is completely plausible given that time for gods (primordials) is much different...
Sigh ... please spare me the "time is different" argument, please. Fact is, it's NOT! When we have dates (down to months or days in some cases) for when gods die, rise, get butchered en masse and so on and so forth, when we have a lot of definitive correlations between this supposedly imperscrutable "divine time" and ... uh ... "mortal time" or whatever you want to call it, well, with all this data points we know that "divine time" either doesn't exist or for all intents and purposes it's the same as "mortal time" for what concerns sourcebooks.
So, when a sourcebook says that something divine happened "for some centuries" and then stopped and changed in a precise, fixed point in time (1358 DR) we can say with confidence that it happened between 359 DR and 1358 DR. Pending personal definitions of "some" each of us can try to narrow it down further, but without other informations it's just speculation.
Back to the topic at hand, this means that, for the birth and development of Sune to have had a meaningful impact on Selune power/station/influence and be the "relationship" we are looking for, it had to happen somewhen after ... oh ... 200 - 300 DR? Thus meaning Sune is a relatively young power.
What Gray put forth is completely plausible and sound, my own thoughts and ponderings are different but i'm not trying to shot down anyone else ideas since we're speculating here.
Sorry if this seems an angry rant, and apologies ksu_bond if i'm being too abrasive but i intensely dislike vague references to false "facts" being thrown around and feel that such cheap arguments only add useless noise to any discussion.
Sigh, that's probably too confrontational, i find it hard to translate emotions in writing and i don't want anyone to think i'm angry, just slightly annoyed. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 23:54:57
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Thats fine...give me the canon date for the War of Light & Darkness occured and when Sune became a deity and I'll stop being vague and concede that my "facts" are indeed false...
Until then...I respectfully disagree and politely refrain from replying to your post in a like manner.
Though I will point out that through the eyes of an elf "time IS different" than through the eyes of a human...so why wouldn't time be different when seen through the eyes of incredibly powerful immortal...and it is at this point that I will point out that I said "time for gods (primordials) is much different", nowhere did I claim that they somehow operate outside of time, on a different timeline, or that their events somehow contradict the linear timeline of the Realms...
Rather I was more inferring that Sune could have been "born" post War of Light and Darkness, joined the the Talfiric pantheon as a fledgling (immature, child, etc) goddess of love and beauty, and blossomed (increased in power, became a woman/adult, etc.) following the Dawn Cataclysm...given this timeline however, that would have made Sune a child for quite sometime...hence my comment that "time for gods (primordials) is much different"... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 10:22:05
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It could just as easily be something like under some other pantheon Selune's name got shortened to Sune over the years... and thus she was an interloper in multiple pantheons. That aspect named "Sune" in the other pantheon was only over love/beauty. Then, there was a merger between the "other" pantheon and the Netherese pantheon. At that point, perhaps Selune decided to divide herself into two aspects for security's sake (maybe she felt she had too much power.... maybe she was worried that if she were killed like Mystryl was, then all love would leave the world).
I just find it too coincidental that two deities whose names are so similar AND at least one of them held the portfolios of the other AND one served the other... that they weren't somehow the same being. The only other option I see would be Sune being a usurper capitalizing on the similarities of names to steal portfolios from Selune, but that doesn't generally seem her modus operandi. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 11:03:34
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PM sent to ksu_bond (i failed to see a way to check if a PM is received, is there any?)
Just to clarify what i meant with my tirade on time: even if gods/primordials or even elves (that have a greater lifespan than humans) see the passing of time as different, whatever happens in 1300 DR and lasts until 1303 DR lasted 3 years for all parties involved. That may be the blink of an eye for the deities, a small interlude for an elf and 1/20 or 1/30 of the full lifetime of a human, but nonetheless it lasted 3 years.
Thus when something that lasted "some centuries" ends in 1358 DR, it had to begin at most 999 years prior to 1358 DR. That's what i was saying.
To get some more "datas" out here, i found a reference to Sune i a place where i hadn't thought there would be any, from Champions of Ruin, page 43, under the "Lore" section for the Gray Portrait it says:
"Long ago, almost two millennia in the past, a vain and selfish chaotic neutral follower of Sune named Belarian the Beautiful sought any means available to sustain and enhance his beauty. Firehair's creed teaches that beauty it's not just skin deep, but Belarian only cared about his appearance."
Meaning that around -600 DR Sune was already established as a deity with followers and a clear central dogma.
Another reference is in Power of Faerun, page 55, in the first paragraph of "The House of Firehair"'s write up it says:
"The House of Firehair is older than the city of Daerlun; in fact, the city grew from the small village that sprang up to serve the temple's inhabitants"
But i don't know what's the official date of Daerlun's founding, if we even have such knowledge somewhere or what are the earliest historical references to Daerlun. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 11:52:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
PM sent to ksu_bond (i failed to see a way to check if a PM is received, is there any?)
I believe it remains in your outbox as unread until received, then it gets flagged as read.
Though if you go and read message you sent and also will be flagged read even if not received by user it was sent to. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 14:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
PM sent to ksu_bond (i failed to see a way to check if a PM is received, is there any?)
Just to clarify what i meant with my tirade on time: even if gods/primordials or even elves (that have a greater lifespan than humans) see the passing of time as different, whatever happens in 1300 DR and lasts until 1303 DR lasted 3 years for all parties involved. That may be the blink of an eye for the deities, a small interlude for an elf and 1/20 or 1/30 of the full lifetime of a human, but nonetheless it lasted 3 years.
Thus when something that lasted "some centuries" ends in 1358 DR, it had to begin at most 999 years prior to 1358 DR. That's what i was saying.
To get some more "datas" out here, i found a reference to Sune i a place where i hadn't thought there would be any, from Champions of Ruin, page 43, under the "Lore" section for the Gray Portrait it says:
"Long ago, almost two millennia in the past, a vain and selfish chaotic neutral follower of Sune named Belarian the Beautiful sought any means available to sustain and enhance his beauty. Firehair's creed teaches that beauty it's not just skin deep, but Belarian only cared about his appearance."
Meaning that around -600 DR Sune was already established as a deity with followers and a clear central dogma.
Good find. So, IF we were to go with the idea that Selune and Sune were already the same being (or a split of the same being), just a slight variation in name, then said split would have been prior to roughly -600 DR. I'd imagine that whatever culture Sune and this Belarian was in favored red hair. This pretty much throws out any dawn cataclysm convergence for the split.
Just wondering, do we have a pantheon listing of any sort for Jhaamdath and/or the Talfir people? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Selune's time under Sune
