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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 05:14:59
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We also have Ed's response to a speculation from myself:
quote:
To Wooly Rupert: when you post sentences like this one: “And though I can't think of any evidence to support it, it's not impossible that part of what Larloch is doing is containing something...” be aware that you are (ahem) VERY perceptive.
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sagechan
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 05:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Might as well have Larloch "repair" the Weave. Or maybe that's what's he's going to do (with the help of Mystra's remaining Chosen) in preparation for 5E?
Spoilers: I think?
[
With Elminster's accumulation and leaking of enough Silver fire to bring Mystra back more fully in 1479 (Elminster Enraged) and the scene in The Companions, also in 1479, where Catti-brie "sees" a web encricling Toril and magic changes again and the Spellscars no longer work, seems to symbolize Mystra's rebirth reformed the Weave] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 05:51:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sagechan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Might as well have Larloch "repair" the Weave. Or maybe that's what's he's going to do (with the help of Mystra's remaining Chosen) in preparation for 5E?
Spoilers: I think?
[
With Elminster's accumulation and leaking of enough Silver fire to bring Mystra back more fully in 1479 (Elminster Enraged) and the scene in The Companions, also in 1479, where Catti-brie "sees" a web encricling Toril and magic changes again and the Spellscars no longer work, seems to symbolize Mystra's rebirth reformed the Weave]
Perhaps this was the intended outcome from creating the blueflame items |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 14:24:42
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The 'thing' Larloch may have been trying to contain was Abeir itself (or, at least, the primordials there 'breaking free').
Think about it - he was trying to control the Road of Stars and Shadows: Thats sounds to me like something that could override the veil that kept Toril and Abeir apart. Larloch has some sort of 'great task', one he either gave himself, or was assigned to him. He may have been a Chosen of a former goddess of magic, and he witnessed first-hand what happens when one of those dies.
And if the Blue Flame items were not designed to stop the conjunction, then they were probably designed to mitigate the circumstances (and un-do any damage that was done). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Oct 2013 14:27:18 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 08:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
No, not in my homebrew...in his actions. He is ancient, yet no where near falling to the passage of time.
My guess is that he essentially "feeds" on the other liches under his control and maintains himself this way. He has reached a state of being somewhat beyond undeath and yet not truly godlike.
But because he has no need of worshipers for his power, he is even beyond the gods in his base of power: immortal without need of worshipers.
Well not "falling to the passage of time" is the thing of every undead. He has no need to do anything special to maintain himself and there are beings far older then him.
Maybe he feeds on his liches for power, maybe not, but he his nowhere near the power gods wield, so saying he his beyond the gods because he needs no worshippers would be like saying every wizards is beyond the gods because they don't need worshippers neither  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 08:55:24
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"Beyond the gods" is probably stretching it, but then, any god would pause, think twice, thrice, before messing with him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 10:31:05
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| So are the blueflame items larloch's atempt in restoring mystra, himself if he is by any chance destroyed or do you think he has some other secret use in store for them? Like helping him with these portal enchantments that have been giving him troubles over the years? Or as was mentioned before to help him contain something? |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 14:54:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
"Beyond the gods" is probably stretching it, but then, any god would pause, think twice, thrice, before messing with him.
Yeah I would think so too, because they can't mess with him directly (at least if he doesn't visit their plane or htey meet on another plane outside the material plane) and it could be very costly for them if he gets angry about them and kills their powerfull followers. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 15:48:59
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Gods squabble among themselves. They are natural enemies of each other. If they dare to mess with an archmage with Larloch's caliber, while it is unlikely they would be killed, they can still be weakened enough for their enemies to swoop in and "feast" on them like crows feast on dead / near-dead meat. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 10:08:31
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I would assume that only a handful of entities in Realms space could take him out, when at home. Spell pools, Circle magic, Vampire Lords, Demi liches and a host of other "lesser" undead. Plus we could assume some altered, manipulated, corrupted mythallar/mythal constantly emanating negative energy...
Whatever he is "containing" within his fortress I bet it’s nasty, and would make even the heartiest of adventures squeal
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 14:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Gods squabble among themselves. They are natural enemies of each other. If they dare to mess with an archmage with Larloch's caliber, while it is unlikely they would be killed, they can still be weakened enough for their enemies to swoop in and "feast" on them like crows feast on dead / near-dead meat.
Errr. You have a bit of an exaggerated idea on what non-divine beings can do. At most, Larloch would be annoying to them. He might be a tough challenge for a demigod, but a fully divine being would eat him for breakfast.
Granted, fully divine Gods are not allowed to interfere directly on the prime anymore. But it has happened in the past that a god sent an avatar to smite a superpowerful wizard before Ao's restrictions. It pretty much takes little of their attention off whatever they are doing, but overall, it would be like me listening to hear if the washer is done while cleaning the apartment, as they can do dozens of things in different places at a time. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 14:30:10
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| A diety with Supreme Initiative and Undead Mastery could just destroy or control him as it sees fit |
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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 16:56:03
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| Well if larloch has created items that can restore mystra to power than i am inclined to imagine that the man himself could be more than a mere annoyance to a god, i am not saying that he could openly challange one though... we'll just have to wait and see what he is capable of |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11702 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 17:07:10
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| Kind of off-topic, but one of the things I've always wondered that involved Larloch was this: During the time of troubles, the gods descended to earth as avatars and took over mortal beings who were particularly powerful representatives of their faith. Larloch has a LOT of liches. Just where did Mellifleur go? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 19:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
A diety with Supreme Initiative and Undead Mastery could just destroy or control him as it sees fit
Going by what Ed has writte he's around level 46, so I think its save to assume, that hes quite difficult to command/controle. He would have turn resistance, very high saves, absorbtion and well direct immunity against a lot of spells and effects... oh yeah perfect spell reflection! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 20:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
A diety with Supreme Initiative and Undead Mastery could just destroy or control him as it sees fit
Except that the only deities with Undead Mastery are Kelemvor and Lathander and both lack Supreme Initiative. Of the others:
- among those likely to have it of the Faerunian Pantheon on Deities and Demigods Nephthys doesn't have it and Osiris has it but lacks Supreme Initiative;
- among those without listed stats and with sufficient power to have both we have only Beshaba, Ubtao and some racial pantheon gods that probably don't give a copper coin about Larloch (except maybe Sehanine and Urdlen).
Seems like no deity in Realmspace has the "attributes" to just show up and humble Larloch in less than a round. |
Edited by - Demzer on 15 Oct 2013 20:27:51 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 20:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Going by what Ed has writte he's around level 46, so I think its save to assume, that hes quite difficult to command/controle. He would have turn resistance, very high saves, absorbtion and well direct immunity against a lot of spells and effects... oh yeah perfect spell reflection!
Except that it doesn't allow a save or anything like it, it just does what it says
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Except that the only deities with Undead Mastery are Kelemvor and Lathander and both lack Supreme Initiative. Of the others:
- among those likely to have it of the Faerunian Pantheon on Deities and Demigods Nephthys doesn't have it and Osiris has it but lacks Supreme Initiative;
- among those without listed stats and with sufficient power to have both we have only Beshaba, Ubtao and some racial pantheon gods that probably don't give a copper coin about Larloch (except maybe Sehanine and Urdlen).
Seems like no deity in Realmspace has the "attributes" to just show up and humble Larloch in less than a round.
Even without Supreme Initiative I guess this wouldn't be a big problem.
Anyways it was just an example to show that the gods play with diffrent rules as the rest. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 22:41:18
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Am I understanding this wrong?
How do you activate this Undead Mastery feat? To me it works for when rebuking undead? And to command someone you still have to be twice there HD. So if Larloch is HD 46 (+ turn resistance) well that deity have to be at least level 92 for determining Turn undead. It might grant you x10 your level in HD, but that only total HD affected not how high that HD limit goes... if you understand! Not many deities in Faith and Pantheons have more that 20 level of cleric... and no where near 92.
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 15 Oct 2013 23:23:22 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 23:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Gods squabble among themselves. They are natural enemies of each other. If they dare to mess with an archmage with Larloch's caliber, while it is unlikely they would be killed, they can still be weakened enough for their enemies to swoop in and "feast" on them like crows feast on dead / near-dead meat.
Errr. You have a bit of an exaggerated idea on what non-divine beings can do. At most, Larloch would be annoying to them. He might be a tough challenge for a demigod, but a fully divine being would eat him for breakfast.
Granted, fully divine Gods are not allowed to interfere directly on the prime anymore. But it has happened in the past that a god sent an avatar to smite a superpowerful wizard before Ao's restrictions. It pretty much takes little of their attention off whatever they are doing, but overall, it would be like me listening to hear if the washer is done while cleaning the apartment, as they can do dozens of things in different places at a time.
And you overestimate gods. They're nothing but naughty, undisciplined, stinky children who just happen to be given toy guns by their Big Daddy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 00:03:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Am I understanding this wrong?
How do you activate this Undead Mastery feat? To me it works for when rebuking undead? And to command someone you still have to be twice there HD. So if Larloch is HD 46 (+ turn resistance) well that deity have to be at least level 92 for determining Turn undead. It might grant you x10 your level in HD, but that only total HD affected not how high that HD limit goes... if you understand! Not many deities in Faith and Pantheons have more that 20 level of cleric... and no where near 92.
Those stats are for avatars, physical manifestations of divine entities and in no way represent the limits of their power. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 01:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Gods squabble among themselves. They are natural enemies of each other. If they dare to mess with an archmage with Larloch's caliber, while it is unlikely they would be killed, they can still be weakened enough for their enemies to swoop in and "feast" on them like crows feast on dead / near-dead meat.
Errr. You have a bit of an exaggerated idea on what non-divine beings can do. At most, Larloch would be annoying to them. He might be a tough challenge for a demigod, but a fully divine being would eat him for breakfast.
Granted, fully divine Gods are not allowed to interfere directly on the prime anymore. But it has happened in the past that a god sent an avatar to smite a superpowerful wizard before Ao's restrictions. It pretty much takes little of their attention off whatever they are doing, but overall, it would be like me listening to hear if the washer is done while cleaning the apartment, as they can do dozens of things in different places at a time.
And you overestimate gods. They're nothing but naughty, undisciplined, stinky children who just happen to be given toy guns by their Big Daddy.
Hahaha. Maybe. But the avatars of gods are pretty ugh.
Ill just pick a random. Azuth since he comes up first. Intermediate divine rank 10, middle of the pack kinda guy. Wizard 20, Archmage 5, Arcane Devotee 5, Loremaster 10, Cleric 20. Cr somewhere near like 60+
Then you factor in all his divine spell like abilities, Salient divine abilities, Divine immunities, spontaneous casting and that they can cast wish and miracle without real loss instantly, etc. Spell resistance of 32 + divine rank , Immune to polymorph, petrify, or anything that transmutes form, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, and more(Evocations = useless), disease, poison, paralysis, death spells, disintegrate, banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, repulsion,....
Hell, as I read, it looks like they are immune to everything but fire, which they have resistance of 20 + divine rank haha. So many free actions a round
More powerful deities always get maximize applied to spells, and their armor bonus is disgusting.
Azuth has a quarterstaff that gives +52melee/+47spells
When I read which spells he had stored as spell like abilities used as a free action, I gaped.
The more I read, the more I realize why Lathander's avatar was able to appear and swat Sammaster like a fly. These guys were never meant to be fought by players hahaha |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 06:39:41
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Meh. I read Paul's reply to your query. And I agree. Stats are anathema to good storytelling. Nothing is certain--mortals and immortals alike change (power-wise) almost every second. So . . . |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 07:05:17
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Well Larloch has the following immunities:
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
I've also read somewhere that he has perfect spell relection but I cant find that right now.
I would also amagine, that he had other immunities and protection contingencies to go off in battle... Maybe even some epic protection spells!
So he's not a pushover in any way... |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 16 Oct 2013 07:07:08 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 09:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Am I understanding this wrong?
How do you activate this Undead Mastery feat? To me it works for when rebuking undead? And to command someone you still have to be twice there HD. So if Larloch is HD 46 (+ turn resistance) well that deity have to be at least level 92 for determining Turn undead. It might grant you x10 your level in HD, but that only total HD affected not how high that HD limit goes... if you understand! Not many deities in Faith and Pantheons have more that 20 level of cleric... and no where near 92.
As I said gods play by diffrent rules
quote:
Benefit: The deity can automatically command or destroy any
undead creature, as desired, as a free action, though this counts
against the normal limit of free actions per round. The deity can do
this as often as desired, but it can command no more than one
undead creature per divine rank (regardless of the creatures’ Hit
Dice) at any one time.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Stats are anathema to good storytelling. Nothing is certain--mortals and immortals alike change (power-wise) almost every second. So . . .
I agree but if you want to talk about who is more powerfull then the other you have to take into regard what those entities are capable of instead of personel preferences. Of course would something like this happen in a story a lot of other foctors come into play and in the end the one who suits the plot wins (like drizzt beheading a balor). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 09:29:52
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That is why powerful is a very subjective word. No stats can ever define it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Oct 2013 10:06:52 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 09:48:36
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Faiths & Pantheons gives the stats of both the deities themselves (first big statblock) and of their avatars (second smaller statblock). Going strictly by those, no deity's avatar can have Undead Mastery since it requires Divine Rank 14 and avatars have at max half the divine rank of the related deity (max 9 for Shar, Mystra, Chauntea, the elemental lords and someone i'm forgetting right now). So no avatar can destroy or control any undead without a check, if we start using the true gods (first statblocks) that opens up a pocket dimension full of cans of endless worms.
Anyway, i don't think any deity or avatar will go against Larloch because they have better things to do than try to kill one of the most accomplished spellcasters ever and one without deity affiliations to booth. If we don't see Shar, Bane, Cyric and others actively trying to kill Elminster and the other Chosens of Mystra with their own (or their avatars) hands, then i don't think any other mortal/non-deific-being is at risk of attracting too much unwanted divine attention just because he/she/it exists. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 10:09:26
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The thing that brought us to this discussion was wether he has surpassed the gods in power or not and I think its pretty clear that he has not  |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 11:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
The thing that brought us to this discussion was wether he has surpassed the gods in power or not and I think its pretty clear that he has not
Fair enough.
Talking about sheer power he is behind most full deities, what makes him "better" is the relative freedom to act as he pleases on Toril (if he ever feels the needs to act). |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 11:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Meh. I read Paul's reply to your query. And I agree. Stats are anathema to good storytelling. Nothing is certain--mortals and immortals alike change (power-wise) almost every second. So . . .
Sure. But that reply was in relation to a quasi deity. A real deity is hundreds of times more powerful.
It might be anathema to good storytelling to stat characters you are using in a fight, but anyone using a true God in a fight vs a non-divine being is going to show it just like canon showed lathander wiping his butt with Sammaster. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 11:54:15
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Just like Bane being "caged" by Szass Tam. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Larloch
