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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 06 Oct 2013 :  13:19:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bhaal in the east makes perfect sense - he's been around for awhile. The Cyric mentions are a bit anachronistic (I find it weird that soon after his ascension, everyone on the planet not only hard of him, but were worshiping him with some zeal).

Regarding The Horde box, I have a feeling that was just a case of some designers who weren't overly familiar with FR lore writing something, and sticking little bits in just to provide a connection, without knowing the full history of those bits (in this case, Cyric). Bizarrely, they even had time to give him his own, local name (clearly the designer did not realize how recent Cyric ascended). This is what happens when someone reads the 2e box set and writes something, without having looked at the 1e boxed set (or intervening RSEs).

But as I said, Bhaal makes perfect sense.

Note that the Faerûnian gods - except for Chautee (called Chantee, IIRC) - do not appear in the Kara-Tur material dating from 1e. They do mention using the Vedic pantheon in the Malatra region... too bad the Horde designers didn't give us Kali instead of that dweeb Cyric in Sentinelspire (Fortress of the Old Man). My hat goes off to them for trying to blend the K-T and Faerûnian lore together, and they did a great job for the most part, but some bits were a little... off (IMHO).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2013 13:19:36
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Lord Bane
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Germany
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Posted - 06 Oct 2013 :  14:13:42  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It just dawned to me, of course those following Cyric could also be former followers of Bane since 2nd made the "switch" to Cyric from Bane,Bhaal and Myrkul before Kelemvor took the death aspect from Cyric. Now we would need further information when these groups started to venerate the entities.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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sleyvas
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USA
11163 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2013 :  16:29:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Uh-oh, 5 days, time for another bit of necromancy (this is Myrkul's scroll after all).

A bit off topic, but since we kept discussing all the Dark Three i hope sleyvas will forgive me.

I was going through The Horde looking for information on eastern Realms and Kara-Tur armies and stumbled in 3 references to Bhaal/Cyric:

1) Hollow Crown Mountains: there is a lost vale with the remnants of the evil people of the Kingdom of Guge. This Gugari fellows are thorougly evil and are split in two factions: necromancers on one side and priests of Bhaal (named Niynjushigampo) and Cyric (named Sirhivatizangpo) on the other side. The Gugari were always evil and were driven in the mountains by the Kao dinasty of Shou Lung (that lasted from -225 DR to 800 DR).
2) Punakha Dzong: a fortified monastery run by a deviant sect of the Path that worships Cyric (named Dhulvarisatta).
3) Sentinelspire: halfway up in a canyon sits the Fortress of the Old Man, a temple to Bhaal (no alias) and a training ground for an order of fanatic assassins led by the Old Man. This guys are so fanatically devoted to Bhaal that they didn't register his death in the ToT, make no mention of Cyric and just keep going on training as fighters/wizards/rangers/rogues/whatever suits their needs for particular styles of assassination.

1) + 2) + 3) Makes me believe the whole Dark Three thing started with Bhaal in the far east (Katakoro Platue, lost Kingdom of Guge), he then traveled a lot, came to Murghom and met Myrkul and then they met Bane somewhere else in Faerun.
I say this because except the nomads of the Endless Wastes (that worship the elemental gods and deities connected to natural phenomenons like Selune) the other nations/peoples/cultures have different faiths/religions/beliefs from the Faerunian and finding 3 reference to the same deity (and the deity that took his place) relatively close together but isolated from the rest of the pantheon suggest me that upon ascension Bhaal remembered of his original tribe/kingdom/people and went there to start his worship and have a powerbase outside Faerun proper (with all it's scheming and conflicting deities/pantheons).

This means that Bhaal had at least two back up plans: one to have a mean of resurrection (siring scores of heirs) and one to have a body of worshippers far from the conspiracies of the Faerunian pantheon.




You're always forgiven when you come up with good information.

To tell the truth, I had been wondering if all 3 of them had met in the East (by that I mean the unapproachable East & Old Empires headed Eastward).

On Hollow Crown Mountains

The Horde set does specifically point out that Cyric (named Sirhivatizangpo) is a replacement for Bhaal (named Niynjushigampo) for the Gugari and that there is now internal dissension in the priesthood. Specifically the two factions are split amongst those ruled by the descendants of the regents (the brothers of the mad king Kalon Doring) and descendants of the princes (the sons of the mad king Kalon Doring). The necromancers serve the princes and the Bhaal worshippers serve the regents.

I find it extremely interesting that yet again, Bhaal's worship is strongly tied to a bloodline story.... and that these rulers are degrading from inbreeding. In fact, their whole social status is related to how close in bloodline they are to Kalon Doring.

It should also be noted that the Gugari are NOT humans. They are spirit folk of the mountains.

Living in the valley are the spirit folk of Guge, the remnants of the old kingdom. These people (spirit folk as described in Oriental Adventures) were once the proud and haughty rulers of all the Katakoro Plateau. Cruel and ruthless oppressors of other races, the old kingdom of Guge was finally destroyed by the Kao Dynasty of Shou Lung. The last survivors of the kingdom retreated into the hidden valley of these mountains.
The Gugari are a smallish race of people with thick, blond hair. They are the descendants of mountain spirits. They are hardy, inured to cold and rain. The men are muscular and stocky, women are slender and fair.

Just to add other relevant lore related to what you mention above:

Glacier of the Lost King
This glacier on the edge of the Hollow Crown Mountains is the place where Kalon Doring, the last king of the old kingdom of Guge, disappeared. Driven mad by the gods for challenging the armies of the Celestial Emperor, the king marched his army into the snowy mists of this glacier, seeking out the hosts of the Celestial Emperor.

The king, along with 10,000 men, disappeared forever. Some claim there was a great battle on the snowfield where the king and his
men were utterly destroyed. Others say the army of Guge still roams the glacier, searching for the enemy.

Game Information: Kalon Doring and his army still roam the glacier, much to the peril of any traveler foolish enough to cross it. They have been transformed into evil spirits, hating all the life of the “warmlanders.” This is their final punishment from the gods.


On Punakha Dzong

In reading its description, I tried to figure out which "aspect" of Cyric this group most seems to adhere to. They are outwardly trying to present themselves as a temple of devoted and misunderstood followers, meanwhile they're thoroughly evil. This to me doesn't scream any of the dark three, but rather Leira, as the original source god. I wish we could find something more to relate it, but it doesn't seem to fit without some pushing.

On Sentinelspire

The Old Man is actually "The Old Man of the Mountain" and this is on a volcano. The place where they live was essentially heaven on earth for assassins "wines flowed from rocks, trees bear fruit year round, beautiful houris and handsome slaves were plentiful, etc...". Then the avatar crisis happened and all the true assassins died and he was left with mostly thieves. He then started training outsiders that he brought in (rangers, thieves, wizards, priests of Bhaal, etc...).

I kind of wonder if most of the people that died were spirit folk related to the Gugari and perhaps this was an outlying training facility

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 06 Oct 2013 :  20:09:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe they met in a smoke-filled, dirty tavern during a poker game, somewhere in Murghôm or Semphar.

"I see your Staff of the Magi, and raise you The hand of Vecna."

"Well played sir, well played..."

Hell... it sure is a lot classier then bowling...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Mirtek
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595 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2013 :  19:12:42  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

(I find it weird that soon after his ascension, everyone on the planet not only hard of him, but were worshiping him with some zeal).
Everyone having heard of him isn't hard for a 2e greater deity to do. E.g. they could visit each and every of their followers in their sleep at once without breaking a sweat if they desired.

The zeal thing just indicates that these worshippers didn't really care for their former (or current or future) deities. They simply want to be in the good graces of whoever is in charge, no matter who it is or how he came to be there. Not much real faith among the followers of evil powers, much more opportunism.
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 07 Oct 2013 :  21:21:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe they met in a smoke-filled, dirty tavern during a poker game, somewhere in Murghôm or Semphar.

"I see your Staff of the Magi, and raise you The hand of Vecna."

"Well played sir, well played..."

Hell... it sure is a lot classier then bowling...



Yeah, I've always pictured that whole skull bowling and knucklebones games as some kind of hidden story. At the end of the story, we read "And Jergal merely smiled, for he had been delivered." So, everyone is always like "yeah, Jergal was just tired and gave up his power". I'm like "no, Jergal saw three people who were going to kill him and he was attempting to save his life". By offering to be their seneschal, he opened the path for himself to slowly steal power back from them and/or set them up to fail.

We are told that Jergal took the skulls of his "three most powerful liches" and gave them to the Dark Three, encouraging them to hurl them as far across the gray wastes as they could. That makes me wonder.... were these the skulls of some of his avatars? Was it necessary to destroy 3 of his avatars in order to split his portfolios? Or were these avatars of himself killed when the three were making their way to him? Could it be that he was attempting to escape the Dark Three by trying to get a portion of one of his avatars outside of their range or something?

Malar then shows up and starts chasing the skulls. Did Malar recognize the skulls as remnants of a divine shell of Jergal, and maybe by gathering them all... he could obtain Jergal's power?

We then see Jergal using his own knucklebones "to decide who is the winner". Perhaps he saw Malar closing in on him as well, and he figured better to split his power to these three and let them face off against Malar, while he ruled them behind the scenes???

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Bane
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Germany
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Posted - 07 Oct 2013 :  21:35:39  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I reread the entry for Ironfang Keep in Dragon and it mentions two humans waiting for the lost god inside his keep with an assassin coming up behind him. That means Bane and Myrkul were humans.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Mirtek
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595 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2013 :  21:41:27  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe they met in a smoke-filled, dirty tavern during a poker game, somewhere in Murghôm or Semphar.

"I see your Staff of the Magi, and raise you The hand of Vecna."

"Well played sir, well played..."

Hell... it sure is a lot classier then bowling...



Yeah, I've always pictured that whole skull bowling and knucklebones games as some kind of hidden story. At the end of the story, we read "And Jergal merely smiled, for he had been delivered." So, everyone is always like "yeah, Jergal was just tired and gave up his power". I'm like "no, Jergal saw three people who were going to kill him and he was attempting to save his life". By offering to be their seneschal, he opened the path for himself to slowly steal power back from them and/or set them up to fail.

We are told that Jergal took the skulls of his "three most powerful liches" and gave them to the Dark Three, encouraging them to hurl them as far across the gray wastes as they could. That makes me wonder.... were these the skulls of some of his avatars? Was it necessary to destroy 3 of his avatars in order to split his portfolios? Or were these avatars of himself killed when the three were making their way to him? Could it be that he was attempting to escape the Dark Three by trying to get a portion of one of his avatars outside of their range or something?

Malar then shows up and starts chasing the skulls. Did Malar recognize the skulls as remnants of a divine shell of Jergal, and maybe by gathering them all... he could obtain Jergal's power?

We then see Jergal using his own knucklebones "to decide who is the winner". Perhaps he saw Malar closing in on him as well, and he figured better to split his power to these three and let them face off against Malar, while he ruled them behind the scenes???

I seripusly doubt Jergal had any reason to be afraid of the Three mortals or little Malar. He was one of the most powerfull, if not the most powerfull, greater deities. Malar was no threat to him and the Dark Three wouldn't have reached him ever if he were not aiding them long before (e.g. it was his secret assistance that enabled to them defeat Borem).

I can buy the theory that he saw some calamity on the horizon and wanted to avoid it through laying low and needed three dupes to stand in the spotlight in his stead, but not that he was afraid of either them or Malar

Edited by - Mirtek on 07 Oct 2013 21:42:02
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 08 Oct 2013 :  00:12:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And Jergal could have just decided it was time for those three (liches) to become demi-liches. Nowhere does it say he (re)killed them - they could have still been liches when their heads were rolling.

Although it is an interesting theory that he had to destroy three avatars, because he would be 'downgrading' himself shortly after the contest (so lower DvR = less avatars available).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 08 Oct 2013 :  13:48:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And Jergal could have just decided it was time for those three (liches) to become demi-liches. Nowhere does it say he (re)killed them - they could have still been liches when their heads were rolling.

Although it is an interesting theory that he had to destroy three avatars, because he would be 'downgrading' himself shortly after the contest (so lower DvR = less avatars available).



hmmm, that's actually an interesting point too... could they have been demi-liches... which are still technically "liches". In that case, they could have still been entirely functional.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11163 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2013 :  13:49:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe they met in a smoke-filled, dirty tavern during a poker game, somewhere in Murghôm or Semphar.

"I see your Staff of the Magi, and raise you The hand of Vecna."

"Well played sir, well played..."

Hell... it sure is a lot classier then bowling...



Yeah, I've always pictured that whole skull bowling and knucklebones games as some kind of hidden story. At the end of the story, we read "And Jergal merely smiled, for he had been delivered." So, everyone is always like "yeah, Jergal was just tired and gave up his power". I'm like "no, Jergal saw three people who were going to kill him and he was attempting to save his life". By offering to be their seneschal, he opened the path for himself to slowly steal power back from them and/or set them up to fail.

We are told that Jergal took the skulls of his "three most powerful liches" and gave them to the Dark Three, encouraging them to hurl them as far across the gray wastes as they could. That makes me wonder.... were these the skulls of some of his avatars? Was it necessary to destroy 3 of his avatars in order to split his portfolios? Or were these avatars of himself killed when the three were making their way to him? Could it be that he was attempting to escape the Dark Three by trying to get a portion of one of his avatars outside of their range or something?

Malar then shows up and starts chasing the skulls. Did Malar recognize the skulls as remnants of a divine shell of Jergal, and maybe by gathering them all... he could obtain Jergal's power?

We then see Jergal using his own knucklebones "to decide who is the winner". Perhaps he saw Malar closing in on him as well, and he figured better to split his power to these three and let them face off against Malar, while he ruled them behind the scenes???

I seripusly doubt Jergal had any reason to be afraid of the Three mortals or little Malar. He was one of the most powerfull, if not the most powerfull, greater deities. Malar was no threat to him and the Dark Three wouldn't have reached him ever if he were not aiding them long before (e.g. it was his secret assistance that enabled to them defeat Borem).

I can buy the theory that he saw some calamity on the horizon and wanted to avoid it through laying low and needed three dupes to stand in the spotlight in his stead, but not that he was afraid of either them or Malar



another equally good possibility.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11163 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2013 :  13:50:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

I reread the entry for Ironfang Keep in Dragon and it mentions two humans waiting for the lost god inside his keep with an assassin coming up behind him. That means Bane and Myrkul were humans.



Just wondering, which issue #? I haven't kept up with 4e that closely, so I'm tending to find lore like this when people post it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Demzer
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834 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2013 :  16:10:17  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

I reread the entry for Ironfang Keep in Dragon and it mentions two humans waiting for the lost god inside his keep with an assassin coming up behind him. That means Bane and Myrkul were humans.



Just wondering, which issue #? I haven't kept up with 4e that closely, so I'm tending to find lore like this when people post it.



Dragon Magazine 361 (Realmslore article) or here: https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a

It first says that Haask saw two grim looking humans and later says that "... the three humans quickly imprisoned the abomination ...". So this would mean that either Batrachi lack True Seeing (and Haask wasn't using/hadn't memorized it) or that the Dark Three were humans or at least so human-like in appearance that there isn't really any difference (thus no 4 arms for Myrkul nor horns or other obviously fiendish features for Bhaal).
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sleyvas
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USA
11163 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2013 :  18:18:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

I reread the entry for Ironfang Keep in Dragon and it mentions two humans waiting for the lost god inside his keep with an assassin coming up behind him. That means Bane and Myrkul were humans.



Just wondering, which issue #? I haven't kept up with 4e that closely, so I'm tending to find lore like this when people post it.



Dragon Magazine 361 (Realmslore article) or here: https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a

It first says that Haask saw two grim looking humans and later says that "... the three humans quickly imprisoned the abomination ...". So this would mean that either Batrachi lack True Seeing (and Haask wasn't using/hadn't memorized it) or that the Dark Three were humans or at least so human-like in appearance that there isn't really any difference (thus no 4 arms for Myrkul nor horns or other obviously fiendish features for Bhaal).




Interesting... we were talking about Myrkul possibly having 4 arms on his avatar because he grafted them on. This is from that Ironfang Keep article as well. Makes me wonder if Haask didn't have some lore on the creator races and grafting and Myrkul may have gotten some of it (in addition to what they were doing at Ironfang Keep with Hargut and Haask).


Inside, the priest-king was stunned to discover two grim looking humans sitting nonchalantly upon his giant-crafted throne. Before Haask could react, a third assassin appeared behind the priest-king, driving a simple iron blade through his back and into his heart. As his life energy pumped into the enchanted dagger, Haask’s form began to shift revealing his true nature as a batrachi-doppelganger.

Sanctum of the Eviscerated
Suspected by some for decades, the present inhabitants of Ironfang Keep are priests of a beast cult whose members venerate obscure elder powers and experiment on creatures whom they abduct from the nearby
mountains. The disturbed cultists believe in a dogma in which one can achieve physical perfection only through the use of grafts (Fiend Folio), a grisy ritual in which the cult member willingly allows a monstrous limb or other flesh to be magically attached to their bodies.

With grim purpose these surgeries are performed in the bowels of Ironfang Keep in a chamber known as the Sanctum of the Eviscerated. But grafts are not the only bizarre rite performed in these halls.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 08 Oct 2013 :  21:27:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, so we've thrown out a lot of ideas on this thread. I was thinking that at least for Myrkul, I'll regather the hypotheses and state them out and see if any of this "reshaking" comes up with any more fruit. Since the relevant references can be found throughout this thread, I won't restate them.

So far, I think we've come up with several ideas that seem to be of interest by most of us

Canon Facts:
A) First, Myrkul was a crown prince of Murghom
B) Myrkul created the crown of horns
C) The crown of horns existed at least prior to -2267 DR
D) at some point around -2267 DR the crown of horns fell into the hands of a Netherese Archmage who studied it for 30 years until it killed him.
E) Myrkul's avatar has 4 skeletal arms and a skeletal chest, and it mentioned his skin was scaly, but it also says his lower half is all sinews and wasted flesh... so, I assume his face alone is kind of scaly... which could just mean dried
Suppositions we've raised from this:
1) Murghom prior to -2267 DR was possibly briefly held by Mulan kings (noting Murghom was not part of the Imaskari empire according to map in GHotR) leading their people out of ruined Imaskar.
2) Myrkul was a descendant in the line of one of the god-kings. He would have become an incarnation of a mulan deity upon becoming king. We never decided which, but both Set and Nergal seemed viable and believable options. It could also have been a manifestation who didn't like the fact that Myrkul was studying old Imaskari lore, and he was cast our of favor for doing so (hmmm, as I state this, I kind of like this option... both Re and Osiris would seem to make good options here).
3) Something happened and Myrkul was forced to abdicate his claim to the throne and flee to the old Imaskari island city of Bhaluin in lake Ghor Nor. While there he began studying Imaskari lore further.
4) Myrkul lost the crown of horns, which was his royal crown. It was recovered by Trebbe the Netherese archmage (noting here, it might have been that Trebbe may have even had some involvement with Myrkul's fleeing). Myrkul had placed certain powerful contingencies upon the item to prevent anyone else from wearing his crown. Eventually, Trebbe accidentally released said magic, resulting in his death.
5) Myrkul used the crown of horns as something akin to a phylactery, storing much of his personal power within it. It may have been one of several though. Possibly through these items he stopped his own aging and/or became undead.
6) Thayd (an anima-mage member of the Theurgian Society from Tome of Magic) is freed from an imprisonment spell by a member of the Theurgian Society who came to Toril seeking him after reading of him in the Theurgist's Library. (homebrew lore). The portal to the Theurgist's Library exited in the fallen city of Bhaluin. Myrkul and Thayd meet. (This very well could be changed to Myrkul freeing Thayd and possibly discovering the portal to the Theurgist Library). Thayd learns of the fall of Imaskar and vows vengeance upon the Mulan people.
7) Myrkul helps found Pholzubbalt, the mausoleum city (aka the boneyard) and draws necromancers there to study.
8) around the same time that Pholzubbalt is established, Thayd begins gathering a society that becomes known as the Theurgist Adepts (binders, wizards, necromancers of various types, etc...) who resent the God-Kings preventing users of non-divine magic from studying as they wish. Myrkul and the necromancers from Pholzubbalt join the Theurgist Adepts.
9) Thayd falls (my homebrew lore, he becomes a vestige... see the previously provided link), but Myrkul survives. The Orcgate wars start, and Myrkul and a handful of remaining Theurgist Adepts secretly work with the Orcs against the Mulan deities. Many of the Untheric deities are killed, but few of the Mulhorandi deities fall.
10) (note I made some suppositions in another thread about Entropy's involvement with the death of the manifestations through the Theurgist Adepts and some portals).
11) Myrkul and the other members of the Dark Three meet after the Orcgate Wars or during them.
12) Myrkul studies lore of grafting body parts, and at some point he grafts the skeletal arms of some other being to himself (who this being was, we haven't uncovered as yet). Possibly this is after he visits Ironfang Keep, or possibly he himself brought such lore there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  16:18:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I am doing a bunch of research for my home 5e campaign (starts TODAY!!!), and I came across something VERY interesting about Myrkul:
quote:
From the Mere of Dead Men series in Dungeon #73
"...the power of Myrkul always waxed when an infrequent and relatively unknown astronomical phenomena known as The Eye of Myrkul appeared in the night sky. This event involving the passage of a new moon through a certain ring of seven stars associated with an old symbol of Mystra."


New MOON?
Also, that second sentence seems clunky... almost truncated (edited?)

Anyhow, any thoughts? The 1st thing my mind jumps to is that this 'moon' can't have always been Myrkul's, given that we know Myrkul hasn't been around 'since the beginning', which means I think it would be associated with death/shadows/necrotic energies instead.

And now I've come back to my 'dark moon' (hidden black moon) theory I use to toy with a lot.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2014 16:20:13
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  17:44:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So I am doing a bunch of research for my home 5e campaign (starts TODAY!!!), and I came across something VERY interesting about Myrkul:
quote:
From the Mere of Dead Men series in Dungeon #73
"...the power of Myrkul always waxed when an infrequent and relatively unknown astronomical phenomena known as The Eye of Myrkul appeared in the night sky. This event involving the passage of a new moon through a certain ring of seven stars associated with an old symbol of Mystra."


New MOON?
Also, that second sentence seems clunky... almost truncated (edited?)

Anyhow, any thoughts? The 1st thing my mind jumps to is that this 'moon' can't have always been Myrkul's, given that we know Myrkul hasn't been around 'since the beginning', which means I think it would be associated with death/shadows/necrotic energies instead.

And now I've come back to my 'dark moon' (hidden black moon) theory I use to toy with a lot.



Hmmm, I'm thinking they mean "new moon" "full moon" "quarter moon" type of moon. That being said, the symbolism there could be very interesting.... the new moon is equated to Selune's rebirth. The idea that the "Night of Myrkul's Eye" is when Selune passes THROUGH an old Symbol of Mystra..... it almost sounds like Selune being hurled through Shar and spinning off Mystra. On the idea of a dark moon, it would be interesting if there were such a moon, and its out of phase with Toril (its actually in the plane of shadow), but on this night it comes back into phase with Toril and in line between Selune and the constellation of Mystra.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  18:37:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Shar's symbol is a 'dark moon', and Cyric is known as the 'Dark Sun' (and the similarities of his symbol with Shar's are pointed-out in the RotAW trilogy).

And the Tears of Selune are symbolic of something - something 'lost'.

Sometimes I think I am so close to something i can almost taste it. The 'Sun, Moon, & Stars' thing is so prominent in ALL FR lore.

Anyone know if Cyric's parentage was ever alluded to?

EDIT: And BTW, if anyone wants to 'downplay' that lore because it was something 'just written for a dungeon adventure', think again - it was written by Eric Boyd. If anyone would know some of FR's 'deeper secrets', it would be HIM. In fact, I highly recommend reading that entire adventure series - lots of great lore in there, and also a bunch more about Myrkul in that final adventure (aptly named "The Eye of Myrkul"). Apparently, some of him tried to reform after his power/essence was dispersed across the coast during the ToT.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2014 21:11:09
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  19:17:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So I am doing a bunch of research for my home 5e campaign (starts TODAY!!!), and I came across something VERY interesting about Myrkul:
quote:
From the Mere of Dead Men series in Dungeon #73
"...the power of Myrkul always waxed when an infrequent and relatively unknown astronomical phenomena known as The Eye of Myrkul appeared in the night sky. This event involving the passage of a new moon through a certain ring of seven stars associated with an old symbol of Mystra."


New MOON?
Also, that second sentence seems clunky... almost truncated (edited?)

Anyhow, any thoughts? The 1st thing my mind jumps to is that this 'moon' can't have always been Myrkul's, given that we know Myrkul hasn't been around 'since the beginning', which means I think it would be associated with death/shadows/necrotic energies instead.

And now I've come back to my 'dark moon' (hidden black moon) theory I use to toy with a lot.



Hmmm, I'm thinking they mean "new moon" "full moon" "quarter moon" type of moon. That being said, the symbolism there could be very interesting.... the new moon is equated to Selune's rebirth. The idea that the "Night of Myrkul's Eye" is when Selune passes THROUGH an old Symbol of Mystra..... it almost sounds like Selune being hurled through Shar and spinning off Mystra. On the idea of a dark moon, it would be interesting if there were such a moon, and its out of phase with Toril (its actually in the plane of shadow), but on this night it comes back into phase with Toril and in line between Selune and the constellation of Mystra.



I concur. The new moon is simply a phase of the existing lunar cycle, not the presence (unremarked on elsewhere) of a previously unknown celestial body.

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Markustay
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Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  21:12:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep - I meant to agree with him after he pointed that out. I forgot that 'new' is used in the cycle terminology. I thought that part was weird... my bad.

Still there is plenty of other good lore in there.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
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Posted - 28 Sep 2014 :  03:38:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, Shar's symbol is a 'dark moon', and Cyric is known as the 'Dark Sun' (and the similarities of his symbol with Shar's are pointed-out in the RotAW trilogy).

And the Tears of Selune are symbolic of something - something 'lost'.

Sometimes I think I am so close to something i can almost taste it. The 'Sun, Moon, & Stars' thing is so prominent in ALL FR lore.

Anyone know if Cyric's parentage was ever alluded to?

EDIT: And BTW, if anyone wants to 'downplay' that lore because it was something 'just written for a dungeon adventure', think again - it was written by Eric Boyd. If anyone would know some of FR's 'deeper secrets', it would be HIM. In fact, I highly recommend reading that entire adventure series - lots of great lore in there, and also a bunch more about Myrkul in that final adventure (aptly named "The Eye of Myrkul"). Apparently, some of him tried to reform after his power/essence was dispersed across the coast during the ToT.



Yeah, I kind of like the idea of there being another moon representative of Shar, though having it be existing in the shadowfell. This of course brings up the idea ..... are there "planets" in the shadowfell? That could help explain many a thing, like why birthright's plane of shadow and Faerun's shadowfell can both be the same plane. They're simply dark mirrors of entire planets in the same plane. Thus, Shar would be just ONE dark moon throughout the plane.

Anyway, having this dark moon phase in during the night of Myrkul's Eye and in line with Selune and Mystra's constellation would definitely have connotations related to the supposed formation of Mystryl through Selune hurling a bit of herself through Shar. However, why would this be a sacred night of Myrkul's?

We do know that during the fight between the two, "Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff
out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere." So, from this, it sounds like Shar was the one destroying the sun and not the night serpent. It also sounds like Shar was also against heat, and thus was also Auril. Therefore, I posit that perhaps "Shar" didn't exist back then, but rather some other entity who was split out.

Then there's the whole "ice moon named Zotha" that was hurled down during the tearfall by "Asgorath the world shaper" something like . This is supposedly where the tears of Selune came from. During this, the sarrukh noted the "changing of the stars". Could it be that this was when Mystryl's constellation appeared? Was Shar actually Zotha? Or was Zotha another entity that was split/shattered and Shar and Auril (or someone else)were split from her, with Shar gaining a "shadow moon" and the other's essence falling to earth ?

Of course, nearly 4000+ years separates these two instances (i.e. the shadow epoch, during which a sun came forth and was destroyed, and the tearfall). Could it have taken this length of time for the supposed events of Selune "hurling a bit of herself" into Shar to actually occur?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 28 Sep 2014 :  20:04:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, on that idea of Shar being a split of an earlier deity.... and that being Shar and Auril (aka Aurilanduir aka The Queen of Air and Darkness) coming from the same entity.... could Dendar, the Night Serpent also be somehow tied in there as well?

Along these same lines, we know that Ubtao was a primordial that is protecting the world from Dendar. We also know that Shar was possessing a fragment of Ubtao in the form of Eshowdow. What exactly was Ubtao's role in things when he turned on the Primordials?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Markustay
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Posted - 29 Sep 2014 :  16:12:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my homebrewed musings, I have it where Shar is the daughter of Erebus (because 'shadow' is but a child of Light & Dark). I also have it where The QoA&D (now Auril) was the mother of Auraushnee (Lolth)... but I have been rethinking that, now that we know the Queen of Air & Darkness = Auril. It would be kinda weird, with them NOT interacting at all on Toril. To add to that, both Gruumsh and Corellon are 'twins' (paternal, with different fathers) and children of Titania, thus making them Lolth's cousins (and before you give me an 'ewwww' noise... that sort of thing goes on all the time amongst elves and gods). I've woven all the pantheons together that way (both D&D and RW gods).

Now, as I typed that first sentence, something you posted above struck me... HARD.

What if we have it all wrong? (Ed, you old devil! have you been laughing at us this whole time?!) If Shar is indeed 'Shadow', then she was created from both Light & Darkness! The power that became Mystra wasn't created when Selune's energy ripped through Shar - thats a misinterpretation of the events!

What if she was a split deity - What was once Shar(?) is now Shar + Mystrya(Mytryl)? Two halves that are needed to make a whole - a being similar to Hel (her pic in the old Deities & demigods tome - half black/half white). What was once a single, primordial goddess of magic (time, death, etc) is now Sundered.

I think I may have been approaching this problem from the wrong angle - we know Shar wanted Mystra's power (her OWN power back), but we assumed Shar was the full being. I am really taken with this idea that they are much more like Beshaba and Tymora!

Could the 'Tears of Selune' be the missing pieces need to pull them back together? Is that why we have so many 'tear-falls' over the years? Was it Shar's doing? Elves seem infatuated with the magical properties of 'star silver' - maybe its magic in its purest form.

EDIT: Went looking for an illustration of Hel and thought on this more - the original being (Shar?) would have been 'Shadow', but the Shar we have now is pure darkness, stripped of her 'light'. The light is Mystra - thats what she needs back to become whole again.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Sep 2014 12:44:34
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sleyvas
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Posted - 30 Sep 2014 :  03:28:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In my homebrewed musings, I have it where Shar is the daughter of Erebus (because 'shadow' is but a child of Light & Dark). I also have it where The QoA&D (now Auril) was the mother of Auraushnee (Lolth)... but I have been rethinking that, now that we know the Queen of Air & Darkness = Auril. It would be kinda weird, with them NOT interacting at all on Toril. To add to that, both Gruumsh and Corellon are 'twins' (paternal, with different fathers) and children of Titania, thus making them Lolth's cousins (and before you give me an 'ewwww' noise... that sort of thing goes on all the time amongst elves and gods). I've woven all the pantheons together that way (both D&D and RW gods).

Now, as I typed that first sentence, something you posted above struck me... HARD.

What if we have it all wrong? (Ed, you old devil! have you been laughing at us this whole time?!) If Shar is indeed 'Shadow', then she was created from both Light & Darkness! The power that became Mystra wasn't created when Selune's energy ripped through Shar - thats a misinterpretation of the events!

What if she was a split deity - What was once Shar(?) is now Shar + Mystrya(Mytryl)? Two halves that are needed to make a whole - a being similar to Hel (her pic in the old Deities & demigods tome - half black/half white). What was once a single, primordial goddess of magic (time, death, etc) is now Sundered.

I think I may have been approaching this problem from the wrong angle - we know Shar wanted Mystra's power (her OWN power back), but we assumed Shar was the full being. I am really taken with this idea that they are much more like Beshaba and Tymora!

Could the 'Tears of Selune' be the missing pieces need to pull them back together? Is that why we have so many tear-falls' over the years? Was it Shar's doing? Elves seem infatuated with the magical properties of 'star silver' - maybe its magic in its purest form.

EDIT: Went looking for an illustration of Hel and thought on this more - the original being (Shar?) would have been 'Shadow', but the Shar we have now is pure darkness, stripped of her 'light'. The light is Mystra - thats what she needs back to become whole again.






Interesting take.... So, what you would have is that the original "sister goddess" of Selune was a goddess of shadows. Then Selune split this being into Mystryl and Shar... weave and shadow weave.

The main problem with this theory is that "Shar" and Selune were fighting because "Shar" wanted to extinguish all light and heat in the crystal sphere. If she was a goddess of "light and darkness" as you propose, she'd be hurting herself. That being said, we know that we have two "beings" which supposedly "destroyed the sun". The first is the "night serpent" and the second is "Asgorath the world shaper". The first is from a couple references, but I think the most recent was the 4e campaign guide. The second came from the 1e draconomicon. I propose that these two separate entities are one and the same, and I further propose that the sages who believe that Ubtao is blocking the fire peaks from Dendar the Night Serpent have gotten it confused..... they assume there's only one Night Serpent. I also propose that there is some linkage between the Tearfall and the Shadow Epoch based upon the references of Asgorath destroying the sun then using its crystal sun energy to birth dragons into the world (maybe the dragon eggs were captured into the ice moon zotha... and when it was destroyed the eggs were realeased?).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 30 Sep 2014 :  12:53:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But Selune is split as well. Hmmmm.... we are still missing some pieces.

Selune rips Shar in-half, but in so doing, also loses half of herself (which is why she isn't the 'ancient primordial power' she once was).

The new being created - Mystryl - is half of the light and half of Shar's darkness. Something is not adding up - the 'new shar' should be less then her former self, and yet the original seemed to be pure darkness, and the post-WoL&D version only 'a mere shadow of her former self'.

The story of what happened is not making sense - if anything, Selune's light should have stayed with Shar and caused her to go from darkness to shadow. She isn't 'lessened', she's 'polluted'.

I need to think more on this - all of that I just said makes sense... except for then we don't have an explanation for Mystra.

Could Selune and Shar have been two halves of a whole? Two aspects of some primordial 'goddess of magic'? No one theory explains everything.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 30 Sep 2014 :  14:18:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see any issues with the official, published story, and I'm not seeing a need to rethink it. It's not the story I would have spun, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

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Markustay
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Posted - 30 Sep 2014 :  15:52:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're absolutely right.

Why discuss the Realms at all?

Thank you for reminding me why I stopped coming around here for awhile.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Sep 2014 15:57:20
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 30 Sep 2014 :  19:07:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You're absolutely right.

Why discuss the Realms at all?

Thank you for reminding me why I stopped coming around here for awhile.



Oh, come on, now. Because I find no need to try to rewrite a particular bit of canon, I don't want to discuss anything at all? That is a huge over-reaction and a gross misinterpretation of what I said.

It is possible to discuss the Realms without trying to rewrite every single aspect of it.

You stated that the story we had did not make sense. I stated that I did not agree. I don't see how that merits such a reaction from you.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Sep 2014 19:08:44
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Delwa
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Posted - 30 Sep 2014 :  20:30:01  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But Selune is split as well. Hmmmm.... we are still missing some pieces.

Selune rips Shar in-half, but in so doing, also loses half of herself (which is why she isn't the 'ancient primordial power' she once was).

The new being created - Mystryl - is half of the light and half of Shar's darkness. Something is not adding up - the 'new shar' should be less then her former self, and yet the original seemed to be pure darkness, and the post-WoL&D version only 'a mere shadow of her former self'.

The story of what happened is not making sense - if anything, Selune's light should have stayed with Shar and caused her to go from darkness to shadow. She isn't 'lessened', she's 'polluted'.

I need to think more on this - all of that I just said makes sense... except for then we don't have an explanation for Mystra.

Could Selune and Shar have been two halves of a whole? Two aspects of some primordial 'goddess of magic'? No one theory explains everything.



If Selune cast a part of herself at Shar, and that hit left Shar a diminished version of herself, then wouldn't Selune also be diminished?
Selune's current essence is the moon/moonlight, which - aside from any Realmslore I'm unaware of - is reflected sunlight. If Shar were once pure darkness and is now Shadow, wouldn't it stand to reason that Selune was once a deity of Light, perhaps a predecessor to Lathander or Aumunator? Or is the analogy simply breaking down?

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Edited by - Delwa on 30 Sep 2014 20:30:56
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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Oct 2014 :  00:26:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But Selune is split as well. Hmmmm.... we are still missing some pieces.

Selune rips Shar in-half, but in so doing, also loses half of herself (which is why she isn't the 'ancient primordial power' she once was).

The new being created - Mystryl - is half of the light and half of Shar's darkness. Something is not adding up - the 'new shar' should be less then her former self, and yet the original seemed to be pure darkness, and the post-WoL&D version only 'a mere shadow of her former self'.

The story of what happened is not making sense - if anything, Selune's light should have stayed with Shar and caused her to go from darkness to shadow. She isn't 'lessened', she's 'polluted'.

I need to think more on this - all of that I just said makes sense... except for then we don't have an explanation for Mystra.

Could Selune and Shar have been two halves of a whole? Two aspects of some primordial 'goddess of magic'? No one theory explains everything.



If Selune cast a part of herself at Shar, and that hit left Shar a diminished version of herself, then wouldn't Selune also be diminished?
Selune's current essence is the moon/moonlight, which - aside from any Realmslore I'm unaware of - is reflected sunlight. If Shar were once pure darkness and is now Shadow, wouldn't it stand to reason that Selune was once a deity of Light, perhaps a predecessor to Lathander or Aumunator? Or is the analogy simply breaking down?



Actually, that hits on something I've had on that backburner of my mind for a while. Selune isn't really a goddess of light. She's a goddess of reflected light. She's a "light in the shadows" to steal a bit from Eilistraee (sp?). The "brighter" things are, the brighter and hotter she gets. So, when she brought in the sun and its heat, she became a reflection of this sun and heat.... or a reflection of its life-giving properties. Not really sure where to take this, but did this make her less like Shar, and thus jealousy started to take over? Correspondingly, did the light weaken and/or sicken Shar?

Anyway, still figuring the night serpent and Asgorath the World Shaper definitely have some kind of linkage, as both are linked to the sun's destruction.... and I figure both have a linkage to Shar whether as allies or alias' since Shar sought to "extinguish all light and heat in the crystal sphere". Of course, they could all 3 be separate primordial as well, and Asgorath got most of the credit from the dragons... the night serpent was given the credit by some others... Shar was given the credit by her church, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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