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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 03:42:26
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Or even how do you go about choosing a hiding spot for your own? Can you hide it in a pocket plane with a preserved body waiting?
I have been thinking about this for awhile. The only novel based account I can think of regarding finding a high level Lich Phylactery is "resurrection".
Assume the Lich is a crafty SOB who has been around a long time. In Res, It was almost certain the Lichdrow would have hidden the phylactery in his own house. You never want the thing outside of your base of power.
But a lot of Liches may assume just that if they are ever in danger. What if they used a wish spell to create an unreachable pocket cave within a mountain or the underdark that only they know about and can only be reached by magical transportation? or, again, created their own little pocket plane to house the thing.
Permanent wards on the thing to prevent scrying it, etc
How do you go about finding a Lich like that's Phylactery to put him down for good?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 04:13:09
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Well bag of holding is something like a pocket plane, however both appear to offer problems. There is no thread of connection (that I am aware of) that permits a planer solution.
Clearly it needs to be assessable. It though can be almost any object, a gen a blade even a chest.
In many ways the smart lich would have many items near him protected and warded from detection. If foes are expected of course the false leads would become death traps far deadly.
To find one, either luck, contact higher plane, wish appear to be the best ways, however sometimes the PCs might just be wiser and figure out the most likely location.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 05:09:22
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Do you have access to the Ravenloft supplement Van Richten's Guide to Liches? In it, there's a bunch of information on phylacteries. Among other things, VR says:
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"The only way to destroy a lich completely and irrevocably is to destroy its phylactery. The lich is trapped in a curious predicament in the storing of its phylactery. If its body is destroyed, the spirit instantly becomes trapped (or secured) within the amulet and remains there until it is able to secure another body. If the lich hides the phylactery where it can never be discovered, then it risks eternal imprisonment. It is, therefore, in the lich's best interest to put the phylactery where it could potentially encounter a body to inhabit; the hiding place should be accessible at least to its minion undead, who can provide host bodies. On the other hand, if the lich selects a place where the phylactery might be found, the lich runs the risk of the phylactery being discovered and destroyed.
My opinion is that a phylactery will always remain within relatively easy reach of the lich who made it. If a person has a treasure of inexpressible value, the compulsion to keep it near at hand is almost irresistible. There may be a solid wall and a dozen traps between the phylactery and the rest of the lich's lair, but it will be there, I'm certain."
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 07:09:34
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This is something I've puzzled over too. I don't have a tidy answer to your questions, except to note that I like horcruxes, from Harry Potter. I really kinda like them a lot.
I think the idea of liches (or some of them, at least... the older and more powerful/persistent ones) fragmenting their spirits/souls/whatever among several visually unrelated but personally significant items presents better roleplaying opportunities than a single phylactery which in the interest of completing the adventure must be distinct and clearly significant... because if you hide the phylactery properly and make it impossible to notice (serving the lich's best interest) it's difficult to avoid the appearance of cheating the players out of defeating the villain... like you're keeping your pet around despite their best efforts. Granted, experienced and rational players wouldn't leap to that interpretation, but not all are experienced. Or rational, but I'm not trying to call names. 
I just think the story is better served by giving the players not just a villain to fight but a long and dark history to unravel, and a search that takes them, perhaps, around the world or even into other worlds, searching for items from the lich's past. They will likely face the lich multiple times, because they won't be able to find and destroy all the items before the lich rises again and lures them back to it by threatening their friends and home towns. Objectively, this isn't much different than preventing them from finding the classic lich's single phylactery until they've faced the thing 6 or 8 times, but it feels much different to the players because they have a path to discover and follow, and there is a potential for making definite progress.
Obviously, a bit of care must be taken to prevent your players groaning in unison "ohh man, another Voldemort." I would suggest making your dark lords nothing like the Dark Lord. However, it serves both the lore and your best interests as DM for your players to sink in their seats a bit when they get confirmation that the darkness they've been alternately stalking and fleeing for the last several adventures is in fact a lich... as they realize the enormity of the task before them. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 17 Sep 2013 07:13:37 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 07:58:52
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Eric Boyd came up with a spell for a fragmented phylactery in his write-up of Aumvor the Undying in "Champions of Ruin".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 10:11:37
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Demiliches use multiple phylacteries.
But I have another question towards this. Is it anywhere specified in the D&D rules that lich needs to take another body after his old one got destroyed and he is in his phylactery or is this left open?
Because I allways liked the solution more where he magically grows a new body. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 12:04:50
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| It all depends on which version of the game you're playing OR which version of the lich you've favored. The early forms of the lich needed a body, but the phylactery could be anywhere. The later forms didn't need a body, but they needed their phylactery very near (meaning they can't hole it up in another dimension and they can't go gallivanting all over the world without bringing it with them). In my viewpoint, this made the later ones easier to kill, because they're pretty much going to have to haul around their phylacteries with them. In 2nd edition, I created a spell ... I know I had a cool name, but lets just call it phylactery compass for now because I can't think of it... and its purpose was simply to provide a guiding light in the direction of any spirit material entrapped in a vessel (so magic jars, gem-entrapped souls, phylacteries, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 15:08:46
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Dagnabbit sleyvas...me want details on that spell!
@Firestorm: I usually hide phylacteries in inaccessible places (on the same plane). The spirit should be able to pass through solid matter so no worries there. Within the chamber (which will certainly have traps and/or guardians within) will be magically preserved bodies, a copy of the lich's spellbooks (at least his most useful/favored spells), and some magical equipment for emergencies (including a quick means of egress, if necessary). Also, I usually place this chamber somewhere rather far from the lich's lair (the spirit should not be limited by distance).
Because of how I normally handle them, lich's are rather rare in my campaigns. I play them as geniuses (I still require them to be very high level per 1/2e, not the 11th level versions you find in 3e [and I don't play 4e] so they are also very powerful...and she be handled as such). Bringing down a lich should be a monumental task, unless the lich is 'fading' and/or weakened for some reason.
Regarding a phylactery being on a demiplane. This is actually workable as well, if you want it. All you really need is a permanent portal to the demiplane (or full plane, or even an alternate reality/Prime Plane, for that matter). There's nothing that says a portal MUST be door-sized so it could be a 'mouse hole' instead (and very well hidden too). Now the spirit has an means of travel to the phylactery and the PCs are left in a quandary even if they discover the miniature portal (which could be hidden at the top of a very large cavern in the Underdark or something).
Lich's will find ways around the rules. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 18:38:59
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Here's a thought... There are a lot of common materials in the Realms that have interesting magical properties. What if there is a substance, like a gemstone or something, that reacts in the presence of disembodied souls? Perhaps it has to be "activated" first, with a specific spell, but then it glows or vibrates in the presence of ghosts and occupied phylacteries.
That wouldn't allow characters to easily pinpoint the location of a phylactery, nor would it allow them to overcome any of its defenses, but it would certainly give them a chance to find it.
I once suggested a lich could use magic to simply embed its phylactery in solid stone (such as the wall of his tower), use more magic to hide its aura, and then leave a well-protected decoy phylactery for PCs to find. The person I suggested this to assured me it would never work, because his PCs, despite not having any reason to suspect that the phylactery they destroyed was fake, would still smash apart random walls to find the real one.  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 19:18:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Dagnabbit sleyvas...me want details on that spell!
@Firestorm: I usually hide phylacteries in inaccessible places (on the same plane). The spirit should be able to pass through solid matter so no worries there. Within the chamber (which will certainly have traps and/or guardians within) will be magically preserved bodies, a copy of the lich's spellbooks (at least his most useful/favored spells), and some magical equipment for emergencies (including a quick means of egress, if necessary). Also, I usually place this chamber somewhere rather far from the lich's lair (the spirit should not be limited by distance).
Because of how I normally handle them, lich's are rather rare in my campaigns. I play them as geniuses (I still require them to be very high level per 1/2e, not the 11th level versions you find in 3e [and I don't play 4e] so they are also very powerful...and she be handled as such). Bringing down a lich should be a monumental task, unless the lich is 'fading' and/or weakened for some reason.
Regarding a phylactery being on a demiplane. This is actually workable as well, if you want it. All you really need is a permanent portal to the demiplane (or full plane, or even an alternate reality/Prime Plane, for that matter). There's nothing that says a portal MUST be door-sized so it could be a 'mouse hole' instead (and very well hidden too). Now the spirit has an means of travel to the phylactery and the PCs are left in a quandary even if they discover the miniature portal (which could be hidden at the top of a very large cavern in the Underdark or something).
Lich's will find ways around the rules.
On the idea of the demiplane, its not so much being "blocked" so much as it is that there is a now "infinite" distance between the lich and their phylactery (in 1st and 2nd ed. not a problem... becomes a problem for 3rd edition). Just because YOU know that you can walk through a mousehole sized portal doesn't mean that your magic has that kind of intelligence built into it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 20:38:46
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I see your point, it's just that I handle them a bit differently in my homebrew. The lich becomes a disembodied spirit with a connection to it's phylactery (I guess it could be similar to an astral cord but I've never thought of it as such). Anyway, the lich can't affect anything but still has its intellect and is able to travel to its phylactery provided it has the means to do so. So, as a spirit, it may travel through solid stone and can traverse great distances if need be.
As to my demiplane idea, it would come down to whether or not the portal can be traversed by the lich-ghost which, as far as I'm concerned, the lich would create itself and ensure that it can travel through it. Heck, it may even make the portal usable only to non-living creatures (including its spiritform) as an added means of security. The lich-ghost would know where it needs to travel to access the portal.
If you go with the idea that the magic connection to the phlactery automatically 'snaps' the lich's soul into it (I do not use this idea) then you are correct...the lich may not be able to travel to the demiplane because the connection lacks an independent intellect.
Now, about that spell... |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 21:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's a thought... There are a lot of common materials in the Realms that have interesting magical properties. What if there is a substance, like a gemstone or something, that reacts in the presence of disembodied souls? Perhaps it has to be "activated" first, with a specific spell, but then it glows or vibrates in the presence of ghosts and occupied phylacteries.
I like this, but I would make it a more difficult thing to obtain, rather than something adventurers are likely to have on hand. This is a phylactery we're talking about, after all. Plus, I'm kind of a jerk.
The crystal, normally transparent, could be physically altered by being touched to an active phylactery. The affected edge of the crystal would discolor and turn opaque, kinda like paper does just before it combusts when touched to a hot enough surface. If pulled away immediately, the stone stops changing, and large crystals might be used one or two more times, but if it remains in contact with the phylactery the entire stone changes to a dull opaque crumbly (and worthless) rock within a few rounds.
Wooly's a nice guy; his idea lets you just be in the vicinity of the phylactery. I'd make you actually touch it with the crystal.
It might be activated by a consecration ceremony, and perhaps the ceremony needs to be performed by a priest or direct/extraplanar servant of Lathander (the dawn being thematically opposed to undeath).
Perhaps a detect phylactery spell exists in your game, or maybe not, but the point of the stone would be that even those who don't have the spell, or can't cast spells at all, can still verify that an object is in fact a phylactery, and that there is a spirit present in it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 22:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's a thought... There are a lot of common materials in the Realms that have interesting magical properties. What if there is a substance, like a gemstone or something, that reacts in the presence of disembodied souls? Perhaps it has to be "activated" first, with a specific spell, but then it glows or vibrates in the presence of ghosts and occupied phylacteries.
I like this, but I would make it a more difficult thing to obtain, rather than something adventurers are likely to have on hand. This is a phylactery we're talking about, after all. Plus, I'm kind of a jerk.
The crystal, normally transparent, could be physically altered by being touched to an active phylactery. The affected edge of the crystal would discolor and turn opaque, kinda like paper does just before it combusts when touched to a hot enough surface. If pulled away immediately, the stone stops changing, and large crystals might be used one or two more times, but if it remains in contact with the phylactery the entire stone changes to a dull opaque crumbly (and worthless) rock within a few rounds.
Wooly's a nice guy; his idea lets you just be in the vicinity of the phylactery. I'd make you actually touch it with the crystal.
It might be activated by a consecration ceremony, and perhaps the ceremony needs to be performed by a priest or direct/extraplanar servant of Lathander (the dawn being thematically opposed to undeath).
Perhaps a detect phylactery spell exists in your game, or maybe not, but the point of the stone would be that even those who don't have the spell, or can't cast spells at all, can still verify that an object is in fact a phylactery, and that there is a spirit present in it.
I wouldn't go so far as requiring a touch to find it -- it means the PCs could be thwarted by a simple sheet of parchment wrapped around the phylactery. It also means that my theoretical lich, with his phylactery magically shrouded and hidden in a stone wall, would be assured that his phylactery could never be found with such a device.
That's why I favor something that lets the characters know there is a disembodied soul in the area. It just lets them know something is around -- nothing else. They may be able to get clever and do a bit of triangulation, but that still wouldn't grant them physical access to the item or get past its defenses. It wouldn't even reveal the defenses...
And if the range was limited to 20 or even 50 feet, then a crafty lich could still keep his phylactery hidden by doing something like burying it 60 feet below the lowest part of his lair. Alternatively, he could bind some ghosts to various points, giving the PCs a lot of false positives on their "phylactery detector." Or even create a decoy phylactery that would trigger a reaction from the device, perhaps by binding a ghost to it.
I don't believe in making things impossible for PCs, but that also doesn't mean that an intelligent foe would make things easy.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Sep 2013 22:20:39 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 23:07:08
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I think it can work either way... a short-range detector device for a "single" phylactery which might be buried in the rock walls, or a contact detector for a partial phylactery "hidden in plain sight." I like the idea of requiring the PCs to either (1) deduce the proper item through play or high-DC skill checks, or (2) rely on the hunt-and-peck method and come in direct contact with dozens or hundreds of items, each of which is potentially booby-trapped. It's just a matter of personal taste; I'd rather attach the difficulty to the planning rather than the physical acquisition of the item.
Regardless of which way you go, one point that I haven't seen here yet is that the phylactery might be (1) constructed of a material that the PCs don't have the means to destroy, and (2) too big/heavy to move through muscle or magic. Maybe the phylactery isn't just buried in the walls... it *is* the walls, and floor, and ceiling, of this 200 ft diameter cavern. Or, for another layer of wtfbbqpwn, the phylactery is a gigantic geode, in the Lowerdark somewhere, and the lich has filled most of it in with wall of stone spells, leaving only a 50 foot diameter hollow with some minor treasures and a trap-laden fake phylactery or three. Then what?
Then I imagine the players mutiny. But we can still daydream. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 23:13:29
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quote:
_Jarlaxle_
Demiliches use multiple phylacteries.
My understanding, as of 2E lore, is that demiliches are an evolution beyond the need of phylacteries, indeed, beyond the world and mortal comprehensions entirely. They are poorly understood and all that anchors them to their previous existence (as mere liches) are fragments of their old bodies, typically their rune-encrusted skull and a mouthful of magical gem-teeth.
Why would a demilich, which hardly exists in the worlds of the living and unliving, require a phylactery? |
[/Ayrik] |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 13:42:03
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Well this may have changed with the edtion too, but in 3rd Edition demiliches have, additionaly to their normaly phylactery, 8 soul gems they need to create and integrate into their bodies. To destroy the demilich you have to destroy all soul gems and his phylactery.
Also there is supposed to be a spell Aumvor's fragmented phylactery in Lost Empires of Faerun. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 15:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Or even how do you go about choosing a hiding spot for your own? Can you hide it in a pocket plane with a preserved body waiting?
I have been thinking about this for awhile. The only novel based account I can think of regarding finding a high level Lich Phylactery is "resurrection".
In The Pirate King, it was revealed that Arklem Greeth had created a pocket plane accessible only through a portal in the graveyard in Old Illusk. Few people would ever venture into the wicked host of undead, there, to go looking for his phylactery.
But despite having gone to all that trouble earlier in his living reign and undeath, later in undeath Greeth's spirit went veritably insane, as did that of his consort and fellow lich Valindra Shadowmantle. When Dahlia the elf and Dor'crae the vampire came upon Valindra in Gauntlgrym, Valindra eagerly pointed out the phylacteries for Greeth and herself to them, like some slobbering idiot.
In Promise of the Witch-King, Jarlaxle stumbled across a minor lich's phylactery while fumbling through a book of creation for a magical tower. The skull gem was hidden inside the tome. Upon taking said phylactery and defeating said human lich, Jarlaxle then had a model upon which to seek out the dracolich Urshula's phyalactery inside the re-risen Castle Perilous.
Zhengyi planned revenge upon the people of the Bloodstone Lands by implanting bits and pieces of his undead magic and essence within numerous phylacteries, which he then had planted all over the realm, in the hopes that one day people would stumble across these items and unleash whatever necromantic tomfoolery he had programmed into each.
So I suppose you could hope to find a really, really generous lich like those in RAS's novels?  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 18 Sep 2013 15:29:23 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 18:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Or even how do you go about choosing a hiding spot for your own? Can you hide it in a pocket plane with a preserved body waiting?
I have been thinking about this for awhile. The only novel based account I can think of regarding finding a high level Lich Phylactery is "resurrection".
In The Pirate King, it was revealed that Arklem Greeth had created a pocket plane accessible only through a portal in the graveyard in Old Illusk. Few people would ever venture into the wicked host of undead, there, to go looking for his phylactery.
But despite having gone to all that trouble earlier in his living reign and undeath, later in undeath Greeth's spirit went veritably insane, as did that of his consort and fellow lich Valindra Shadowmantle. When Dahlia the elf and Dor'crae the vampire came upon Valindra in Gauntlgrym, Valindra eagerly pointed out the phylacteries for Greeth and herself to them, like some slobbering idiot.
In Promise of the Witch-King, Jarlaxle stumbled across a minor lich's phylactery while fumbling through a book of creation for a magical tower. The skull gem was hidden inside the tome. Upon taking said phylactery and defeating said human lich, Jarlaxle then had a model upon which to seek out the dracolich Urshula's phyalactery inside the re-risen Castle Perilous.
Zhengyi planned revenge upon the people of the Bloodstone Lands by implanting bits and pieces of his undead magic and essence within numerous phylacteries, which he then had planted all over the realm, in the hopes that one day people would stumble across these items and unleash whatever necromantic tomfoolery he had programmed into each.
So I suppose you could hope to find a really, really generous lich like those in RAS's novels?
Yeah, his portrayal of liches are not usually typical and tend to be portraying them on the weak/unintelligent side |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 02:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In 2nd edition, I created a spell ... I know I had a cool name, but lets just call it phylactery compass for now because I can't think of it... and its purpose was simply to provide a guiding light in the direction of any spirit material entrapped in a vessel (so magic jars, gem-entrapped souls, phylacteries, etc...).
I thought of another solution: a divination that would track (in either direction) lifeforce links - such as wizard with familiar, dryad with her tree, hamatree caster with the target tree, one elven spirit-link participant with another, cursed/bound item with the owner, lich with phylactery.
Maybe touch-ranged.
Of course, there are ways to circumvent "touch range" limitation, but it still makes things non-trivial, doesn't it? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 03:47:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In 2nd edition, I created a spell ... I know I had a cool name, but lets just call it phylactery compass for now because I can't think of it... and its purpose was simply to provide a guiding light in the direction of any spirit material entrapped in a vessel (so magic jars, gem-entrapped souls, phylacteries, etc...).
I thought of another solution: a divination that would track (in either direction) lifeforce links - such as wizard with familiar, dryad with her tree, hamatree caster with the target tree, one elven spirit-link participant with another, cursed/bound item with the owner, lich with phylactery.
Maybe touch-ranged.
Of course, there are ways to circumvent "touch range" limitation, but it still makes things non-trivial, doesn't it?
But most liches would heavily enchant their phylacteries against Divination |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 13:21:17
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I REALLY like that - a spell that can 'see' spirit-links. I'm going to have to use that somewhere - GREAT idea. Going on past lore, it should look like a thin silver cord (so this would be related to 'astral sight' or some-such). The idea that it could be used to track a dryad back to her tree is positively devilish.
Hmmmm... that just gave me another idea - maybe this 'spell' is based on a psionic ability, and maybe thats why Jhaamdath got itself in so much hot-water with Elves (and maybe other fey-types). There could be a good story in there, based on this one idea.
As for an anti-divination enchantment, I would think it would come down to how powerful the diviner is vs the lich (so in most cases, the divination would fail... but not always). I'm thinking of some sort of opposing checks, based on spells used and caster levels.
Taking this a step further, that means someone like 'Joe Shmoe the enchater' would fail miserably, but someone like Elminster would just walk in, look around, and point to precisely where the phylactory is. In fact, I would guess that Chosen (and other beings with a 'divine spark') should have this power/magic functioning constantly. Gods SHOULD be able to do this automatically, and can you just picture an archfiend 'reeling someone in' by their silver cord? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 18:17:19
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There's no reason why it would prefer one direction, so it does "find where X fell into a pit" part too. Also, it can discern familiars or bound homunculi from random weird critters and reliably identify (e.g. for legal purpose) their masters. Lots of applications.
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
But most liches would heavily enchant their phylacteries against Divination
Aye. Nondetection and other such effects is the reason why it should be touch-ranged. A plain "Locate Object/Creature" with target defined through link to a known object/creature can be defeated in the same straightforward way by "translocation access denied" effects. Thus, to circumvent this one could start with an existing access path ("you already hold a half of it") and work from the other half, rather than to it. I.e. it's an indirect variant of a navigation spell - it determines the location, only not the caster's own, but extending via the link first.
Perhaps a weirdstone or a similar effect could foil this, if it interferes with keying to a spot in space as such, it may just make readings useless - "that's in a strange place, which is... oops, it's a different strange place now... oops..." and so on. And probably subject to disorientation effects (speaking of fey) if the far side happens to be within AoE of one.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... that just gave me another idea - maybe this 'spell' is based on a psionic ability
Not as such, but why not. In 2e terms, a psionic counterpart to the above would be a power with prerequisites of Know Location and Aura Sight and/or Contact. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 21:35:15
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
There's no reason why it would prefer one direction, so it does "find where X fell into a pit" part too. Also, it can discern familiars or bound homunculi from random weird critters and reliably identify (e.g. for legal purpose) their masters. Lots of applications.
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
But most liches would heavily enchant their phylacteries against Divination
Aye. Nondetection and other such effects is the reason why it should be touch-ranged. A plain "Locate Object/Creature" with target defined through link to a known object/creature can be defeated in the same straightforward way by "translocation access denied" effects. Thus, to circumvent this one could start with an existing access path ("you already hold a half of it") and work from the other half, rather than to it. I.e. it's an indirect variant of a navigation spell - it determines the location, only not the caster's own, but extending via the link first.
Perhaps a weirdstone or a similar effect could foil this, if it interferes with keying to a spot in space as such, it may just make readings useless - "that's in a strange place, which is... oops, it's a different strange place now... oops..." and so on. And probably subject to disorientation effects (speaking of fey) if the far side happens to be within AoE of one.
I disagree. A non-detection effect should counter touch detection as well as ranged, and any kind of touch-based detection could be so easily defeated as to make the attempt pointless. Touch-based detection could be thwarted by a thick piece of parchment. You'd be better off not even bothering with it -- why waste a spell or equipment slot on something that could be accidentally defeated by a piece of cloth?
If I'm going to give PCs a tool, I'm not going to to handicap it. You might as well give them a +5 longsword made out of rubber.
A ranged detection method could be defeated, but it would take more effort than just giftwrapping the phylactery. False positives, locating the phylactery beyond the range of the spell, non-detection... All of those would counter ranged detection, and an intelligent foe could be reasonably expected to come up with any of them.
If PCs can overcome the phylactery's anti-location protections, they shouldn't then be thwarted by something so trivial as a lack of direct contact.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 01:10:30
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I know it's off-topic, but this discussion makes me wonder how PCs would ever find an amulet of proof against detection and location ... a precious trinket which radiates non-detection, it would probably be liquidated at the closest merchant NPC after PCs cast detect magic to pull the good stuff out of their loot pile.
More on-topic, liches are acutely aware of how much of a liability their phylactery can be. In fact, they probably studied a little anti-lich psychology back in their living days if they acquired their archmastery of magic through adventure. They might fashion their phylactery as a precious magical item, even perhaps a jewel-encrusted tome filled with their mightiest spells. Realms canon includes a dracolich whose phylactery is a gemstone set within the pommel of a powerful intelligent dragonslaying blade, thus assuring a body will eventually become available if the previous one was slain by mighty adventurers.
Personally, I think a smarter lich would present attackers with a false phylactery. Few PCs would worry much about a vengeful lich after bypassing the traps, defeating the guardians, and finally blasting the "cleverly-hidden" and "well-protected" glowing necromantic soul orb thing they found in the secret panel behind a lich's favourite shelf of spellbooks. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 01:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I know it's off-topic, but this discussion makes me wonder how PCs would ever find an amulet of proof against detection and location ... a precious trinket which radiates non-detection, it would probably be liquidated at the closest merchant NPC after PCs cast detect magic to pull the good stuff out of their loot pile.
More on-topic, liches are acutely aware of how much of a liability their phylactery can be. In fact, they probably studied a little anti-lich psychology back in their living days if they acquired their archmastery of magic through adventure. They might fashion their phylactery as a precious magical item, even perhaps a jewel-encrusted tome filled with their mightiest spells. Realms canon includes a dracolich whose phylactery is a gemstone set within the pommel of a powerful intelligent dragonslaying blade, thus assuring a body will eventually become available if the previous one was slain by mighty adventurers.
Personally, I think a smarter lich would present attackers with a false phylactery. Few PCs would worry much about a vengeful lich after bypassing the traps, defeating the guardians, and finally blasting the "cleverly-hidden" and "well-protected" glowing necromantic soul orb thing they found in the secret panel behind a lich's favourite shelf of spellbooks.
If I was creating a lich, he'd definitely do the well-protected decoy trick, with the real one very well hidden indeed.
Dretchroyaster's trick with the sword is an excellent one. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 06:38:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Touch-based detection could be thwarted by a thick piece of parchment. You'd be better off not even bothering with it -- why waste a spell or equipment slot on something that could be accidentally defeated by a piece of cloth?
The whole point (in this context) being the ability to circumvent unbeatable immunities to detection via conventional methods?..
quote:
A ranged detection method could be defeated, but it would take more effort than just giftwrapping the phylactery.
Exactly the point..? Uh, did you read it? Or re-read what you wrote here? 
The idea is that if it's not detection-type ("where's X?") effect, but the opposite ("I'm here, now where's everything else?"), thus protections blocking specifically "where's X?" forms of location are simply not appliable - it requires blocking navigation-type effects (including True Compass spell, psionic Know Location, etc) or another superset ("any Divination magic", "all Weave spells up to 9 level") in the remote target's area.
Of course, requiring access to the remote object via a backdoor means that whatever/whoever carries the local end of that link must be affected (fail resistance and saving throw) first before the spell may reach through the link and "look out of" the remote part. But that's a reasonable level of inconvenience, IMHO, for a method both bypassing nondetection effects and ambiguity/decoys ("there are 30 trinkets exactly like this in circulation, which one you have located?" - it was specifically noted in the description of drow House Insignia). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 12:27:10
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| Maybe the spell could work like displaying the link between the caster and the object as some kind of shimering band only visible to the caster for the duration of the spell. This way he would have to follow it until he finds the other end and if the other end is protected by some anti-devination magic the band will end somewhere in the air as if the protection creates some kind of bubble around the object and you know at least the rough location of it. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 20 Sep 2013 12:27:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 13:38:42
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Touch-based detection could be thwarted by a thick piece of parchment. You'd be better off not even bothering with it -- why waste a spell or equipment slot on something that could be accidentally defeated by a piece of cloth?
The whole point (in this context) being the ability to circumvent unbeatable immunities to detection via conventional methods?..
quote:
A ranged detection method could be defeated, but it would take more effort than just giftwrapping the phylactery.
Exactly the point..? Uh, did you read it? Or re-read what you wrote here?
The idea is that if it's not detection-type ("where's X?") effect, but the opposite ("I'm here, now where's everything else?"), thus protections blocking specifically "where's X?" forms of location are simply not appliable - it requires blocking navigation-type effects (including True Compass spell, psionic Know Location, etc) or another superset ("any Divination magic", "all Weave spells up to 9 level") in the remote target's area.
Of course, requiring access to the remote object via a backdoor means that whatever/whoever carries the local end of that link must be affected (fail resistance and saving throw) first before the spell may reach through the link and "look out of" the remote part. But that's a reasonable level of inconvenience, IMHO, for a method both bypassing nondetection effects and ambiguity/decoys ("there are 30 trinkets exactly like this in circulation, which one you have located?" - it was specifically noted in the description of drow House Insignia).
My point is that physical detection methods could be defeated by the simplest, most trivial mundane means. A toddler could unintentionally defeat touch-based detection by simply dropping something over the phylactery. If a detection method could be accidentally defeated by a piece of paper, what's the point of it?
Stashing something under your pillow shouldn't be just as effective as putting it in Fort Knox.
Ranged-based detection could also be thwarted, but it requires deliberate effort. The anti-detection could still be overcome by crafty PCs, but this would require creativity and work on their part.
Touch-based detection could be defeated by something as simple as a ceramic coating or gold plating -- so the only way the PCs could defeat that would be to hack up everything they find. If they don't make a point of destroying every single piece of furniture, art object, or stone in a lich's lair, they may never be able to find the phylactery.
The PCs could go thru all the effort of beating the lich, they could spend weeks trying to find the phylactery, and never accomplish this goal because of a thin layer of balsa wood. That's not challenging PCs -- that's torturing and frustrating them.
I'm not saying that the phylactery should be unprotected or easy to find -- I'm just saying that the best efforts of the PCs shouldn't be rendered absolutely pointless by the simplest, most mundane method. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 14:06:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My point is that physical detection methods could be defeated by the simplest, most trivial mundane means. A toddler could unintentionally defeat touch-based detection by simply dropping something over the phylactery.
You still did not read. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 14:19:58
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In this kind of situation is very important how the DM handles the interaction between divination and illusion spells.
Personally i hate spells that have absolute results ("this spell prevents all divinations" or "this spell reveals everything") so outside level 8 and 9 spells all the other illusion spells work flawlessly against lower and same level spells and force a caster level check against higher level spells with a bonus equal to spell level except for very specialized spells (undetectable alignment beats all the detect alignment spells, Nystul's magic aura beats identify but only forces a caster level check against analyze dweomer).
With this house rule in mind finding a lich's phylactery isn't completely impossible even if the lich has done is homework and has used all known (Players Handbook) illusion spells. With a bit of luck, time and perseverance an appropriate level party should be able to figure things out with spells. The problem here is of course the time it takes to find the phylactery.
Personally, if at the moment of the lich's death someone in the party is using detect magic, detect evil or arcane sight (greater) i make them see the faint trace of the soul of the evil spellcaster drifting away, and this can give the party an hint of the direction to follow.
A resourcefull party may even employ zone of truth and similar spells together with speak with dead to question the former body of the lich itself.
Spells like commune, contact other planes, divination, legend lore and vision can all be used to get a better idea of where a lich may have hidden his phylactery without bouncing against illusions or protection spells.
Once on the site spells like analyze dweomer, arcane sight (greater) and the one that creates the flying eyeballs with true seeing can help scout it quickly, even speak with ... spells may be used to question vermins/rats/snakes/bats/plants/undead servitors or whatever is whitin the lair to learn where the lich routinely cast spells and narrow the search field.
It's important to remember that Nystul's magic aura and similar spells can't completely shield powerfull auras and (depending on the level of the lich) the soul of evil liches may very well still radiate an aura faint enough to be picked up by the detect ... spells.
If the party is positive they're in the right lair they may use less precise and more quick methods like blasting everything with low level damaging spells and see what survives the blasts and later commune or contact other planes to be sure they destroyed the right gem studded gold goblet covered in runes and resistant to fire.
On the other side of the fence the most important thing for a lich is to protect its phylactery long enough to form/possess a new body so the best defense for a phylactery isn't always magical but geographical.
The lich may decide to fly for months and make it's phylactery's lair on an unnamed mountain peak or in a series of submerged sea caves far off from trade routes and fishing villages.
Stuffing the lair with a bunch of preserved corpses, a spell book or two, some magic items and then filling the place with symbol ... spells is the norm.
The lair may even be filled with traps not intended to hurt the adventurers too much but to halt their progress (causing collapses, cave ins, forest fires, floods, etc...).
Another weapon in a lich arsenal is of course deception, like wearing an ostentatious rune covered amulet or ring enspelled with a contingency spell that teleports it away in a conveniently easier to locate but difficult to ge to lair when your body is going to die.
The adventurers will probably search for the amulet first since they saw it and familiarity with items helps divination magic, and this will give the lich precious time as long as they search for the fake.
Or better, they will destroy the fake during the fight then kill you and go home thinking their work is over and you were a particularly stupid lich.
Another trick is to use your treasure pile as a decoy and to gain time: while the adventurers fight against your mimics to claim your hoard, argue about how to take with them magic resistant huge solid gold statues or run to priests to remove all the cursed gear they just looted and equipped, you, the lich, get one step closer to showing up again for a rematch. |
Edited by - Demzer on 20 Sep 2013 14:55:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 14:50:11
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My point is that physical detection methods could be defeated by the simplest, most trivial mundane means. A toddler could unintentionally defeat touch-based detection by simply dropping something over the phylactery.
You still did not read.
No, I read it. And I still don't see why a DM would offer a detection method that he knew would never work. |
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How do you find a Lich Phylactery?
