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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 08:48:48
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Poll Question:
What form should the introductory 5E Forgotten Realms campaign sourcebook take, and why?
EDIT: If there's some feature you'd like to be a part of your preferred format (parchment color pages, tiny font, black and white drawings and not color, etc.) please mention it below.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 11 Aug 2013 09:34:10
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 09:08:15
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Myself, I'd like a boxed set.
Something a little deeper than the old grey box (OGB): closer to the Elminster's Ecologies boxed set in size.
In it I'd like maps: lots of maps. And I'm not talking only world maps or keyed maps to various Realms cities. Give me some dungeon maps that I can use to build adventures around (the maps to the two original adventures in the OGB would be a good start).
For books, I'd like either one hardcover (world guide) and one softcover (adventures; monsters; lots of images and artwork; information on online content with tiny urls or a CD attached to the back cover that's packed with useful-to-DMs content for running Realms games).
I don't know that I need any player handouts or other content like that, but some plastic, pre-painted Realms miniatures would be cool, as would dice numbered in Espruuar, Thorass or Dethek, (which language you get depends on the luck of the draw when you purchase the boxed set).
What better way to teach players to read Realms' alphabets (or at least the numbers) than to put the languages on the dice they use, hey?
On second thought, having a set of player handouts with words or phrases in other languages that players (and DMs) can use when roleplaying would be nice (along with Common tongue Realms phrases too), e.g. something a little more meaty than the sidebar found on page 4 of Brian Cortijo's Crowns and Mantles: The Ranks and Titles of Cormyr in Dragon 407, that has words for noble titles in Chondathan. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 11 Aug 2013 09:51:54 |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 10:26:49
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Jeremy I think I'd have to agree with most of what you have already put forth.
The themed dice with the various languages would be great, WotC could then sell as individual sets later on, because there will be those like me that would want them all not just the one random set.
A cd with useful content would be fantastic (DM note sheets, blank character sheets, generic b/w images that could be used for NPCs, handouts, etc.).
A useful selection of dungeon tiles and miniatures. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 10:51:53
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They should publish two formats, IMO. One should be a single hard (or even soft, idc tbh) cover book with a foldout map, for people who (like me) can't afford this kind of stuff for expensive prices. The other one could be some kind of deluxe/collector edition boxed set with all the kind of goodies Jeremy talks about.
This would only expand their customer base, as I see it. Personally, if I decided that the 5e FR were of my liking, then went to a bookstore and saw a 70-100$ price tag on what I was going to buy, I would surely refuse to purchase it (especially considering the format and font WotC are using for their books, offering less content for even higher price. On this note, I'd like to see a less ''diluted'' page structure). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 11:27:43
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| Box set full of goodies maps NPC card item cards etc.. |
Yan
Playtester |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 12:29:04
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My first thought was for a boxed set, but then I thought about it...
I'd prefer a BIG CG and also a Player's Guide - I'd rather see all the campaign-specific crunchy bits in the PG. I want both books to be FAT, or at the very least, the CG to be uber-thick.
But here's the thing - I don't care if the PG comes out right away - that can actually wait (and perhaps work as an errata after the initial fallout). So I voted for just a big campaign guide. Thats of the utmost importance to me, and should be a work of art (on all levels).
Then, after the PG comes out, they can do a 'deluxe box edition', with the two books together, and a set of deluxe maps, and maybe some other goodies (an adventure, etc). Those can even be soft-cover. That should appeal to everyone, and it will also have a lot of us re-buying the books a year or more later (ours should be getting pretty raggedy by then, if the do the job they are supposed to). It will also provide a convenient, one-purchase solution to folks feeling like they are already 'falling behind' (and the idea is, a year or two after the initial release, EVERYONE should be wanting to find out what this 'New Realms' is all about).
As for the cover art for that box... well, I'm thinking Elminster (although it could be {gag} Drizzt) staring out a castle window, and in the middle distance we see a lone rider on a horse - the exact scene form the first box. That is a great homage to the original, without going the cheesy, reprint route.
If you really want to get folks riled-up (and talking), have Guenhyvar lying at Elminster's feet - there's a homage to Drizzt without actually having to stick him on the damn cover. You'll have people climbing the walls to figure out what THAT is all about (which shouldn't be anything more then a great piece of artwork). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2013 12:30:48 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 12:29:30
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| Pesonally, I'm a fan of one GIANT book like the FRCS (3E). I'd like ALL the information pushed into it's folds that way I only need to reference that book alone. But my gut tells me that WotC doesn't make as much money selling TONS of info in 1 book where they can span it over 3 and thus, milk it for more money. I can't blame them but I don't necessarily like the idea. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 14:55:18
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I've always wanted a Players Guide with a difference for the Realms. When I say difference, I mean a book that gives nitty gritty details so that you can really root your character into a particular region, organisation, race etc. and make them different. Details such as language, dress, armor and weaponry, general attitudes/beliefs should be set out, backed by crunch in the form of how that information can best be used in gaming terms (skills, feats, racial abilities, etc.). I'd like to see the Realms move away from cookie cutter PCs and move into unique and distinguishable backgrounds and starting points for players as well as milestones as players in particular areas rise in power (how they might be treated locally, opportunities to move into the governing apparatus of any given area etc.). A PC from Waterdeep should be readily discernable from a PC in Cormyr. This has been tried before but to my mind, hasn't been given enough detail or options.
As for the Campaign Guide, it simply has to be filled to the brim with at least 80% new lore and 20% old/recycled stuff. There should be a recent timeline (say the last 20 years), a suggested 'start-point' date, current clack across the Realms, unique spells and magic items, detailed geography, organisations, NPCs (with the one-line FRA stat standard), and details, details, details. Make the setting unique again - give us currencies, herbs, poisons, flora, strange magic, books, food, drink, mercantile information, weather, unique metals/woods/minerals, localised secret societies/cabals, temple and religion information, etc etc. etc.
Simply, the punter has to pick up these books, say "Wow" and think that they'll need to read them cover to cover about a dozen times for it all to soak in.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 11 Aug 2013 14:56:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 15:35:15
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I'm voting for the replica OGB -- but I want it following Krash's idea. 
That said, I expect a hardcover campaign book with a pullout map, and a separate player's guide.
I like the idea of a Ptolus-type book, but I think that would be cost-prohibitive and wouldn't be the best move for marketing... Heck, even the pdf of that book was expensive, save for when it was recently on sale. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Aug 2013 15:37:23 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 16:19:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm voting for the replica OGB -- but I want it following Krash's idea.
That said, I expect a hardcover campaign book with a pullout map, and a separate player's guide.
I like the idea of a Ptolus-type book, but I think that would be cost-prohibitive and wouldn't be the best move for marketing... Heck, even the pdf of that book was expensive, save for when it was recently on sale.
Ditto this, save that I prefer hardcover books. It's only by sheer luck that I still have an actual grey box for my Old Grey Box, and that only the top needs a bit of tape...books are a semi-sacred item in my house, and game books are no different. That said, I would also expect it to be just that, a hardcover book.
- OMH |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 16:40:29
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| To further add, what I DON'T want is a lot of mechanics in them, espically whenthey refute or change the base rules. The setting books should be about the setting and about applying the existing D&DN mechanics to the setting. A few things that are mechanical, such as a few spells or feats or maybe sub-class options are fine but not 70% of the book. I dont think we need a chapter of FR-specific spells. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 17:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm voting for the replica OGB -- but I want it following Krash's idea.
That said, I expect a hardcover campaign book with a pullout map, and a separate player's guide.
I like the idea of a Ptolus-type book, but I think that would be cost-prohibitive and wouldn't be the best move for marketing... Heck, even the pdf of that book was expensive, save for when it was recently on sale.
Ditto this, save that I prefer hardcover books. It's only by sheer luck that I still have an actual grey box for my Old Grey Box, and that only the top needs a bit of tape...books are a semi-sacred item in my house, and game books are no different. That said, I would also expect it to be just that, a hardcover book.
- OMH
My dad was, for a while, married to someone who was death on D&D. I quickly discovered that I could leave books out, as long as they were disguised -- so I put the contents of boxed sets into folders, and the folders could be out in the open.
So while I do have several boxes from boxed sets, and I try to keep them in good shape, I'm not over concerned with the boxes themselves. I keep the contents handy, but the boxes are stored where they are not in my way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 17:15:05
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| Personally I'm kind of torn between a single large book, and a boxed set akin to the old "grey box". Ultimately I'd prefer a single large book, preferably with a large fold-out map of the Realms (a loose map, not something that's "a part of" the book!). As a follow-up I'd really like to see regional books concerned solely with a specific region, and containing maps of the major cities and a more detailed map of the specific region. As for content I'd value setting descriptions over game mechanics. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 17:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
To further add, what I DON'T want is a lot of mechanics in them, espically whenthey refute or change the base rules. The setting books should be about the setting and about applying the existing D&DN mechanics to the setting. A few things that are mechanical, such as a few spells or feats or maybe sub-class options are fine but not 70% of the book.
This part, I agree with. I was one of those who was, in the 3E era, most vocal about my displeasure with all the often-pointless crunch, and particularly the wasted space dedicated to page-long stat blocks.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I dont think we need a chapter of FR-specific spells.
This part I will disagree with. Part of the appeal, for me, of the Realms was always the magic. When I get new FR material, the new spells and new magical items are some of the first things I look at.
The Realms are a highly magical place, and showing us the magic is one of the best ways to show that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 17:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My first thought was for a boxed set, but then I thought about it...
I'd prefer a BIG CG and also a Player's Guide - I'd rather see all the campaign-specific crunchy bits in the PG. I want both books to be FAT, or at the very least, the CG to be uber-thick.
But here's the thing - I don't care if the PG comes out right away - that can actually wait (and perhaps work as an errata after the initial fallout). So I voted for just a big campaign guide. Thats of the utmost importance to me, and should be a work of art (on all levels).
Then, after the PG comes out, they can do a 'deluxe box edition', with the two books together, and a set of deluxe maps, and maybe some other goodies (an adventure, etc). Those can even be soft-cover. That should appeal to everyone, and it will also have a lot of us re-buying the books a year or more later (ours should be getting pretty raggedy by then, if the do the job they are supposed to). It will also provide a convenient, one-purchase solution to folks feeling like they are already 'falling behind' (and the idea is, a year or two after the initial release, EVERYONE should be wanting to find out what this 'New Realms' is all about).
Pretty much this, except I'd release them at the same time. I'd want the boxed set to come in softcover, and have more maps, whereas the Hardcover individual copies only have a map of Faerun. (The Campaign Setting having a big geographical map, and the PG having a map outlining the different Character Regions or something like that.) |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 17:32:38
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There's too much to fit in one book, unless you go the Ptolus route and then (as has already been pointed out) it's too expensive. And with a huge book it's more difficult to find stuff, the index would be crazylong... oh, nevermind, WotC doesn't really do indices.  (being a little sarcastic; I did appreciate the effort put into the 3e FRCS index.)
For nostalgia's sake, I love the idea of an updated Grey Box. However, that would kinda break the unifying theme of 5e since there's nothing nostalgic about boxed sets for the new fans. Boxed sets are also automatically more expensive than books; apparently for some reason the cardboard is superexpensive or something.
I have a few caveats about my vote for two hardcovers.
- Keep the Campaign Guide and Player's Guide to less than $30 apiece; preferably around $25 each. Maybe you're made of money, but we're not. Impossible? Nope, there are lots of ways to lower cost.
- Softcover is fine for the purpose of lowering cost.
- No to a cd. Extra goodies would be awesome, but it would add to the cost without adding much to the quality. Little gimmicks like the character generator are just that: gimmicks. They're like the toys in a happy meal. A cd is also not a great idea for a softcover book.
- Plain offwhite pages. No watermarks, no weird mottlings like the books in the OGB (and many other 1e and 2e books).
- Minimal margins. Yes, really. Friggin tiny margins.
- Font size: err on the side of smaller. It doesn't have to be 6-point, but no larger than 10-point.
- No interior artwork. Given WotC's chequered history of art choices (watercolors, questionable quality or maybe just rushing the artist, b/w, too small or dark to see the details) the art adds nothing and often detracts from the overall quality and enjoyment of the book. Exterior artwork is completely optional; we're not going to spend any significant time looking at the covers anyway. Omitting artwork should also lower the cost of the books.
- Raise the pagecount. Each edition of the Realms should present a larger as well as more refined body of information.
- Remove all crunch. Seriously, I expect >95% fluff in a campaign setting book. Zero stat blocks; armor class and hit points are totally irrelevant when you're describing the setting. Prestige classes and feats and skills and mechanics-related stuff can go in the Players' Guide. Focus the Campaign Guide entirely on Realmslore.
- The Campaign Guide doesn't have to go into details about much of anything. That's what books about particular realms are for. The Campaign Guide should simply establish the flavor of every sovereign realm and city-state from Tuern to the Utter East and from Nimbral to Sossal. No stats or even NPC names are necessary... just give us a couplefew paragraphs outlining each place. All the places!
- A complete index and errata should be readily available online, and not hidden behind a pay-for-access thing.
- A few outtakes should be available online too; let each contributing author choose a location or historical era or artifact/relic or even a god, and wax loquacious. And put it online for everyone. It's not like you have limited hard drive space. This "bonus material" helps us to feel like we're getting a bigger book than what fits between the covers; it feels good and we appreciate it. And then we write things like "the Taj Mahal of gaming books" when we review your Campaign Guide, and it makes you feel good too. Do it.
- A general timeline beginning at
1357 1479 and going up to the current year. I'd like to say 1357, but covering the 100 year jump is problematic and even if it's done properly it would eat up space and require additional explanation elsewhere. We don't need to see the Days of Thunder or the Crown Wars in the Campaign Guide. The complete timeline which has taken shape over the years is awesome and those who've worked on it definitely deserve the kudos, but it needs its own book (like the Grand History) rather than being tweaked and clipped down to fit into a Campaign Guide which should present the world as it is now. There will be other books for historical exploration.
- A general overview of the gods. Names, portfolios, and personalities. Cut out the stat blocks and unnecessary information, and keep the descriptions light. Instead of a page each, for half the gods, give us a couple light paragraphs about every god on the list. And of course it goes without saying that you should give us every deity that has appeared in the Faerunian pantheon between 1e and 4e... be inclusive rather than exclusive. The racial pantheons aren't appropriate for the Campaign Guide since there will be another book (like Demihuman Deities) for them.
- I have a heretical idea regarding maps... sell them separately. This raises the cost of the complete setting, which sucks, but it enables us to expect high quality... so deliver that. Remember the Trail Maps from 1e? Yea. Give us Faerun on four durable poster maps, plus "detail maps" of the Heartlands from Waterdeep to Bezantur or something like that, and sell it as a Trail Map. It's vital that you go back to multiple maps; 3e proved that the Realms cannot and should not be scrunched down to one poster. More map is good; less map is very bad. Price the Trail Map at less than $10 or you'll have some really peeved customers. We're not buying another book here... it's a map that's pretty necessary to making use of the Campaign Guide, so keep the price low. This enables you to have a separate budget for the maps, rather than trying to fit it into the Campaign Guide budget. The good thing about this for customers is that we can buy multiple versions of the map if we want to put one on the wall and have one for play... so you should make sure the maps you give us look good enough to frame. It also enables us to easily replace maps that get damaged during play. This means: keep producing these trail maps; don't let them go out of print.
I agree very strongly with George about the Player's Guide... this book should fire our imaginations like cannons, for every region in the Realms. I also agree about the currencies, flora, weather and so forth for the Campaign Guide. I would just rather put NPCs, spells, magic items, and other crunchy stuff in other books.
And I guess I'm on a different page from Jeremy and probably others... I really love all the details of the Realms like dungeons and so forth, but I don't want them in the Campaign Guide. Especially not the sample adventures that have appeared in the 3e FRCS and maybe other books too; even if they're good adventures, they don't belong in the Campaign Guide. They take up space that can be better used to give birds-eye views of more places in the Realms. Plus it's hard to remember where to find them when I want to use them later, because they're in a counterintuitive place. I want those details to have their own modules/sourcebooks, which have the pagecount to really delve into them. For example a "book of dungeons" that presents significant physical and historical details of 20 different dungeons (in a 192 page book like the 3e sourcebooks, that's 9 pages per dungeon, so there's room for a map and lots of information). I cringe when I see a Player's Handbook 2, but I would love a Book of Dungeons 2 and 3 and 4.
Eh, enough backseat driving from me for now. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 11 Aug 2013 18:37:29 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 17:52:35
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I voted for the two hardcovers as I think it's the best route to go. I'm not going to get into huge details about what I want except to say that I mostly diddo George Krashos and Markustay. While I like the idea of (and miss) boxed sets, the fact is that they aren't as portable or durable as hardbacks.
I want both books to be BIG, with details, details, details, and when they run out of details...add more details. I want the great artwork (what I refer to as polished...dunno if anyone knows what I mean by that). And I want beautiful and detailed maps (I rather hate cities/towns missing from areas that I know they exist).
Speaking of maps. I wouldn't mind a MAP PACK. I'm talking just as beautiful and richly detailed as above...but include maps of various scales (not just the 90 and 30 mile standard). I'm talking good maps down to the 15-20 mile scale so as to add even more details...and I'm talking for the ENTIRE REALMS here. Not just the main/core areas, but also the outlying cultures. I'm also talking of various world map designs (mercatur, mollweide, etc) and maps that show climatology, elevation, and so much more.
I've been starving for good Realms material and I think WotC needs to REALLY deliver on this to make their 5e products successful. IT NEEDS TO SHINE FOLKS. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 18:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
To further add, what I DON'T want is a lot of mechanics in them, espically whenthey refute or change the base rules. The setting books should be about the setting and about applying the existing D&DN mechanics to the setting. A few things that are mechanical, such as a few spells or feats or maybe sub-class options are fine but not 70% of the book.
This part, I agree with. I was one of those who was, in the 3E era, most vocal about my displeasure with all the often-pointless crunch, and particularly the wasted space dedicated to page-long stat blocks.
Agreed. Not that I don't love crunch, because I really do and lots,of it but in setting books, it's seems more appropriate to have lore and stuff in them than random mechanics or mechanics that aren't fueled by the setting (like a random feat for dwarves or a generic prestige class). And let's hope we keep away from page-long NPC stats *shudders*.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I dont think we need a chapter of FR-specific spells.
This part I will disagree with. Part of the appeal, for me, of the Realms was always the magic. When I get new FR material, the new spells and new magical items are some of the first things I look at.
The Realms are a highly magical place, and showing us the magic is one of the best ways to show that.
I'm not opposed to FR-spells being created, just the amount and their placement. The 5e FRCS doesn't need a huge chapter dedicated to FR spells for clerics, druids, paladin's, rangers, and wizards. A few famous one or ones that showcase the setting, sure but leave the plethora of spells to their own book, like Magic of Faerūn. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 18:05:50
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Addendum: I do like what Jeremy suggests as far as dice and a glossary, but the issue I have with it being packaged with the Campaign Guide is that everyone who plays in the Realms is going to want a Player's Guide and everyone who DMs is going to want a Campaign Guide... the dice and other "gimmicks" as I so condescendingly and dismissively  labeled them are great for teaching new players but many-if-not-most new players aren't going to be buying their own books... until later when they're no longer brand-new players.
I also strongly support teaching kids how to role-play, and from what I've seen kids love interesting/unusual stuff like dice with funny numbers and more than 6 sides... but again it's not going to be something that every player/DM needs or wants. Which means, as much as I hate to admit it from my usual "those big corps are always sucking money out of us" perspective, I support the idea of a separate package for introducing the Realms to young players. I think that's where these things should go, in the interest of using the entire budget of the campaign setting books on the setting itself.
And that may sound like pushing the extra expense off on parents or DMs who want to include younger players, but I don't mean it that way at all. I would happily pitch in to buy one of these packages for the children of a gamer in my group; split amongst all the players (who would be similarly eager to help build the imaginations of kids, or else they probably wouldn't find a welcome in my group) a boxed set full of neat stuff would be inexpensive.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 18:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Speaking of maps. I wouldn't mind a MAP PACK. I'm talking just as beautiful and richly detailed as above...but include maps of various scales (not just the 90 and 30 mile standard). I'm talking good maps down to the 15-20 mile scale so as to add even more details...and I'm talking for the ENTIRE REALMS here. Not just the main/core areas, but also the outlying cultures. I'm also talking of various world map designs (mercatur, mollweide, etc) and maps that show climatology, elevation, and so much more.
A new electronic atlas would address all of these concerns and more. Not just an update of the existing one, because that one absolutely stunk. They need to do a new one, with layers that can be selectively turned on/off, a good zoom feature, a functional index/search, and ideally with the ability for us to manually add settlements and alternative names if we wish. And a great user manual and help file. The old atlas had some of this, but the level of detail was horrible and it's not exactly the most user-friendly piece of software ever written. It also needs to be periodically patched with freely available downloadable updates... forever.
It's not impossible, and it's not necessarily expensive. There are multiple people on this forum and probably on the WotC site as well who would be eager to participate. Some of us even have a background in GIS or geography. And the key is that we're fans of the Realms and we're going to be keen on making accurate maps, plus we're not just in it for the money, unlike some independent studio of questionable skill. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 22:39:09
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I like the idea of a new atlas (esp. being able to add your own settlement!!!). But, I still want my beautifully printed (professional) maps to hang on me wall. Both as a visual aid during play and because I'm a total nerd and map w***e!  If I were a 'coin-lass' I would do it for the maps! |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 22:55:10
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I want to diddo something Wooly said above about spells. They are actually a major selling point for many buyers so they need to be in the book. Not ALL of them, but many of the more famous ones to be sure.
Perhaps a bit off-topic but one of the things about the game that somewhat aggravates me is the plethora of spells...or more precisely, the plethora of spells spread out across multiple source books. It makes it difficult to find some spells that you want to include in a given adventure. Actually, this also applies to other things (like new monsters, for instance). So I've an idea about it. A few months to a year after releasing a new version of a spell, put them up on the web for ease of access. I would even buy a subscription to DnD Insider for access to something like this (I know I'm about to be pelted by rocks and garbage for that comment...but hey, it's just me opinion). Bottom line, a single access point would be IMMENSELY helpful for gameplay. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 00:08:19
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I'm sure some spells and NPC stats and magical items and a whole bunch of other crunch will go in the Campaign Guide. Because the designers will believe that it's a non-negotiable requirement. And it'll be a weakness of the book. Not trying to be a jerk, but it absolutely will be a con rather than a pro. And part of the reason is in your second paragraph.
Putting spells in the Campaign Guide is a bad call, because you're not going to put all of them in there (they wouldn't all fit) and therefore it will always create a situation where things are spread out over several books. Rinse and repeat logic for NPC stats, magic items, feats, prestige classes, and monsters. Also, crunch is edition-dependent so the portion of the Campaign Guide that's taken up by any of those things becomes useless as soon as the rules change (whether a new edition comes out or the group simply decides to use a different ruleset), while the geography and culture parts of the book retain full value.
So 0% crunch is an optimal situation, for making the Campaign Guide as valuable as possible. Every word of crunch that gets inserted lowers the short- and long-term value of the book.
An overview of the entire setting belongs in the Campaign Guide, and there aren't any other books where it's appropriate. In contrast, there will always be other books for crunch. Putting rules-related stuff in the Campaign Guide is messy design and makes things frustrating for DMs and players, as well as decreasing the pagecount available for the stuff that actually belongs in there.
And that's why I disagree with this "requirement." Nobody will refuse to buy a FR Campaign Guide upon noticing that it lacks any spells or stat blocks or other crunch. It's the Realms in one book. It will be bought for its strengths, and (the biggest) one of those strengths should be spending a paragraph or two on every place in Faerun. If 5e has a Spell Compendium we'll buy that, and all the spells had better be in there... not all the spells except the ones that were put in the Campaign Guide... that would be dumb. So putting them in the Campaign Guide results in reprints, which is the epitome of wasting space. And the Campaign Guide is the #1 worst place to waste space.
I also agree with Wooly in that I love new spells and magical items and artifacts... the Campaign Guide just happens to be the one book where none of that belongs.
I know a lot of you, if not all of you, disagree with me, and the designers are going to side with you, which is probably rational. Just beating a dead horse I guess. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 12 Aug 2013 00:12:56 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 00:26:15
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| I agree that the campaign setting guide should be crunch free, but that means it needs a very good and full forgotten realms player's handbook to be released at the same time. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 03:19:51
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As much as I'm a fan of boxed sets, having started during D&D 2E when they were more or less the standard for big releases (campaign settings, major expansions, mega-adventure), I'm not sure they're (economically) feasible for today's market. Generally they are more expensive than a hardcover book to produce. Either the cost is passed on to the customer or the company eats the cost. Neither is conductive to improving the appeal of the setting (either use as a default setting or as a toolbox). Also, boxed sets are shrink wrapped and prevent browsing at the book/gamestore.
There's only a few reasons to have them, either as all-in-one 'beginner sets' (PF Beginner Box, Dragon AGE, or D&D 4E Red Box, or old Basic D&D Red Box for that matter) or as a some sort of deluxe collectors item with loads of extra goodies (OD&D wooden box, or the Collector's Edition of video games with maps, OST, artbook, etc.) or board games (Lords of Waterdeep, Dungeon Command). Each of those has their uses, but none fits the requirements of a FR campaign setting/guide. At most I could see a slipcase edition with a set of themed dice or some inserts, poster map, or art print (The One Ring RPG, PF Rise of the Runelords Deluxe Collector's Edition [also not economically feasible, but an example nonetheless]).
For the same reason a massive tome like Ptolus is also problematic. The cost of it is a deterrent for gamers to pick it up with their regular gaming budget. It ends up being a special purchase. This works well enough for a smaller company like Malhavoc, but not as the flagship setting for the flagship tabletop fantasy RPG.
This doesn't mean we can't have a meaty tome to work with and I think a good solid volume is the way to go for the main FRCS book. The FRCG 4E is not bad at 288 pages, but larger font size. The FRCS 3E is 320 pages with denser text (but probably more crunchy bits, albeit flavorful crunch in my opinion). Interestingly, Golarion's Inner Sea World Guide is also 320 pages. The number is probably due to binding. I've heard around 300 pages is okay (thus 320), and even up to under 400 is okay, but beyond that the costs accrue. That doesn't stop some books from being bigger, Freeport's new PF book will be 512 pages, Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition is 420 pages, Razor Coast is 544 pages. The cost just rises (game material (writing, editing, playtesting) and book material concerns (paper, binding, shipping & storage)).
Seems 320 pages is the sweet spot, good number of pages (especially if used well) and the costs is within a reasonable budget. Another thing Paizo does is sell the Inner Sea World Guide PDF for ten dollars. This is less expensive than most of their other books (aside from the Core Rulebooks for obvious reasons). The price is set low to increase adaptation of the setting by gaming groups. Once they're playing your game in your primary setting, you can sell people supplements. Some will only ever buy the main book (if at all), but they're still playing the setting and it grows the fanbase.
The player guides (like what George Krashos described) could be broken up into smaller, individual books specific to region, nation/kingdom, or even city. Not limited to that, PFRPG has smaller setting supplements on organizations, races, religions, etc. People can pick up what they want and keep at the gaming table only the books relevant to their current game. Even at 32 pages per region/nation, as a collective they will be far more pages than even a 320 page or 400+ page hardback. The end result offers more specific coverage of a specific area or setting concept. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 08:07:06
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| <=< Am sort of partial to the 3.5 edit style, that you see in Lords of Madness. I want that formatting, with maps. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 12:14:41
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| OGB replica Circa 1489. Full of Ed of The Greenwood goodness! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 07:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
OGB replica Circa 1489. Full of Ed of The Greenwood goodness!
For those that still have their OGB, how is it and its contents holding up?
Pretty much all the maps I have from my OGB sets have fallen apart, but the softcover books are still going strong, with no binding issues or other problems.
This includes one set that's had enough water and soda spilled on it to fill a small bucket. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Knightfall
Learned Scribe
Canada
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 07:51:59
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| While I voted for the Ptolus-style set, a more reasonable alternative would be two hardcovers -- one for the player and one for the DM. (That was the good idea that they had for 4E.) However, I want them to be stuffed with lots of Realmsian goodness. And, no, I don't want all the fluff to be in the DM book. There should be a good balance between the two. In a perfect world, %e will start with the standard PHB, DMG, MM, and a FR Player's Handbook and a FR Campaign Guide, and if WotC adds in dedicated monster book for the Realms, I wouldn't mind. But no thin book. I want a "detailed" monster book for the Realms including all the classic Realmsian monsters. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 09:20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
For those that still have their OGB, how is it and its contents holding up?
The box is a little battered, but everything inside is in pretty much pristine condition, maps inclusive. This also includes six modules (such as Moonshae, Dreams of the Red Wizards, and so forth). Probably due to the fact that that was a period of annoying (non-gaming) issues as well as time in the military, and the box was shoved onto a shelf at my father's house and ignored (my father doesn't understand gaming in the slightest, but he kept my stuff safe).
- OMH |
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What form should the 5E Realms Campaign Book take?
