Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Asmodeus Realm?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 :  16:32:38  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only to add some info here: according with 2e "Guide to Hell", Asmodeus was a deity from the beginning, and a greater god. He hid it from everyone because he is the great liar, and he sustained his power from the faithless, or something like that (I'd have to read it to confirm exactly the meaning of this). Back there we had no primordials, but archfiends were around...

The point is that this lore was not linked directly to the FR, except if you consider that, back then, all the worlds were unified in a single Great Wheel cosmology. If so, maybe the death of Azuth would be the reason, or the excuse for Asmodeus to enter the Realms, maybe ignored by him until then.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 17 Feb 2014 16:33:19
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 :  21:07:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, so in light of this new/old info, I'll modify what I said above.

Asmodeus was always a deity (not according to the 3e books, but oh well), and he hides his nature from everyone, making them all believe he is just an arch-archfiend. He picks and chooses which worlds he wants to establish a foothold on - as all gods do (so as not to spread themeslves out to thinly). He has always wanted to get a toe-hold on Toril, but Ao's rules about interloping has prevented him... until now.

By absorbing Azuth, Asmodeus may now enter the Realms as a full fledged god, rather then just the lord of the arch-devils. In other words, having a piece of Azuth inside of him allows him to bypass Ao's safety measures.

I'd still say he is/was a primordial though, only because he existed before the godwar even happened. So if he wasn't some sort of super-powerful celestial (as 3e states), then he must have been something else - something older and wiser. 'Deities' at that early (primordial) time were in their infancy, and he is older then almost all of them.

Then again, it may be simplest just to say he is what he is... UNIQUE. He was a celestial, but the most powerful ever created (hence, the whole 'vanity' thing) - as powerful as a primordial. Come to think of, the LoP could fit into that category as well. Some sort of proto-pantheon of early beings that don't quite fit into the normal hierarchy.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2014 21:09:49
Go to Top of Page

Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 :  21:38:13  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I understand the Sage of Shadowdale series correctly, Azuth and Larloch are both tied to the blueflame ghost items. With Azuth effectively "dead" at this point, with his rebirth (if that happens), maybe what Asmodeus has of his divine essence will tear free and return to him. Whether this reverts him to arch-devil status or not I don't know.

I've never cared for Asmodeus as a full fledged god myself, so this is just my wishful thinking.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 :  22:33:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IF thats the case - that the piece of Azuth he absorbed allowed him to interlope into Toril (as a god), then it can go either way if they bring back Azuth. Ao may decide that if he has enough of a following that he should stay in The Realms, regardless of still having that bit of Azuth inside him.

And if I were a betting man, I'd say they are going to leave that particular plot-point open... which I would like, because that would let everyone spin it the way they want for their games (so no edition-wars side-taking there - everyone gets what they want... sort of).

Azmodeus WAS a god for a century or so, and now Azuth has been restored (or not), so the folk of the Realms are unsure of what Asmodeus is or isn't. I think we will know just as much as the people in-setting know, which isn't really much at all, at the end of the day.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2014 22:34:31
Go to Top of Page

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 :  01:22:23  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'd still say he is/was a primordial though, only because he existed before the godwar even happened.

Well, I read it more carefully, and although I'm not an expert in post-2e cosmology, I think the best description for Asmodeus - as for Jazirian - would be "primordial", since he was described as a greater power from the beggining of the multiverse that would have godlike powers, independently from worship like the other gods because "his existence predated the rule of faith". In 2e these kind of beings were seen as gods, just like the Elemental lords Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia and Kossuth, right?

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
Go to Top of Page

Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 :  21:36:45  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, so in light of this new/old info, I'll modify what I said above.

Asmodeus was always a deity (not according to the 3e books, but oh well), and he hides his nature from everyone, making them all believe he is just an arch-archfiend. He picks and chooses which worlds he wants to establish a foothold on - as all gods do (so as not to spread themeslves out to thinly). He has always wanted to get a toe-hold on Toril, but Ao's rules about interloping has prevented him... until now.

By absorbing Azuth, Asmodeus may now enter the Realms as a full fledged god, rather then just the lord of the arch-devils. In other words, having a piece of Azuth inside of him allows him to bypass Ao's safety measures.

I'd still say he is/was a primordial though, only because he existed before the godwar even happened. So if he wasn't some sort of super-powerful celestial (as 3e states), then he must have been something else - something older and wiser. 'Deities' at that early (primordial) time were in their infancy, and he is older then almost all of them.

Then again, it may be simplest just to say he is what he is... UNIQUE. He was a celestial, but the most powerful ever created (hence, the whole 'vanity' thing) - as powerful as a primordial. Come to think of, the LoP could fit into that category as well. Some sort of proto-pantheon of early beings that don't quite fit into the normal hierarchy.



With the exception the 2e GtH (the Asmo and Jazirian thing was never picked up except for that source), taken as a whole, the prior 2e and subsequent 3.x sources paint a fairly cohesive picture of Asmodeus as an originally LN outsider servitor of a primordial LN race prior to the origin of gods. He became corrupted by evil during the earliest iteration of the Blood War, and subsequently fell along with his followers to a per-existant Hell. In the process his followers became the first baatezu/devils and displaced the original natives of Hell, the ancient baatorians (creations of the NE baernaloths, who also created the obyriths who Asmodeus and his ilk had been fighting).

The 4e "primordial" nomenclature doesn't really work within the context of the mass of non-4e material on the topic IMO.

That said, Asmodeus was never a god because it made absolutely no sense for him to become one. It was a liability to become one, and within Hell he was more powerful than any deity to begin with. Gods were petty newcomers, and he had his sights on larger scale things.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.

Edited by - Shemmy on 18 Feb 2014 21:38:43
Go to Top of Page

Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 :  21:44:26  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


As an aside, I think the single worst thing that 4e did was have ALL the Tieflings be from devils... and Asmodeus to boot!




It was a complete contradiction of what tieflings were for their entire D&D history on multiple levels. I truly don't understand the reasoning whatsoever, and I really do hope that they rectify the situation in 5e.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 :  23:13:51  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Proper deity or not, Asmodeus does (theoretically) command the obedience of every baatezu in the cosmos. Certainly, any true deity can slay legions of baatezu with little effort. But the devils are numerous, perhaps nearly infinite, and they can attack a deity where it *really* hurts by destroying or corrupting mortal worshippers.

It has been said that Ao prevents gods of foreign worlds and pantheons from gaining divine status within his Realms. Imperfectly, of course, since Tyr and others apparently arrived uninvited to muscle their Realms faiths into existence ... but consistently enough that the many gods of Oerth, Krynn, etc, are largely kept away. If this is so, then perhaps old Asmodeus opportunistically consumed the power of a Realms godling to attune his power to the Realms, a way to (later?) establish his presence in the Realms without violating Ao‘s strictures.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  03:09:33  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Asmodeus has to have less worshippers, given his domain. "Sin" (rebellion against all the gods) was a poorly chosen portfolio to begin with. Shar's portfolio of "loss" gives her tons of worshippers. (...)


Asmodeus' dogma is one of cunning, ambition, and hedonism. It encourages people to achieve their potential, to strive to do better, to better their lot in life with the promise of great reward.

Shar's dogma is one of melancholy and stagnation. It forbids the faithful from trying to achieve anything. It's a faith of hopelessness with no motivating drive to it.

Now, maybe it's my inherent optimism, but my opinion of people in general tells me that given the two choices, people would flock to Asmodeus in droves.


With a lot of gothics, emos and the like around, I can see how 'loss' can atract a lot of people, maybe even more than a dogma based on motivation...



Never really thought about it, but Shar would be the Emo goddess wouldn't she? hahaha

Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  04:39:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Proper deity or not, Asmodeus does (theoretically) command the obedience of every baatezu in the cosmos. Certainly, any true deity can slay legions of baatezu with little effort. But the devils are numerous, perhaps nearly infinite, and they can attack a deity where it *really* hurts by destroying or corrupting mortal worshippers.

It has been said that Ao prevents gods of foreign worlds and pantheons from gaining divine status within his Realms. Imperfectly, of course, since Tyr and others apparently arrived uninvited to muscle their Realms faiths into existence ... but consistently enough that the many gods of Oerth, Krynn, etc, are largely kept away. If this is so, then perhaps old Asmodeus opportunistically consumed the power of a Realms godling to attune his power to the Realms, a way to (later?) establish his presence in the Realms without violating Ao‘s strictures.



That method does work... But it still begs the question of why he would want to do that.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  11:43:58  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
With the exception the 2e GtH (the Asmo and Jazirian thing was never picked up except for that source), taken as a whole, the prior 2e and subsequent 3.x sources paint a fairly cohesive picture of Asmodeus ...

That's true, and I'm not sure of what to do with both "deities"/primordials/whatever. But I must remember this is the ONLY source that reveals Asmodeus' stats and role in 2e, since most PlaneScape material - or previous 2e books - avoids it. Not that it is a bad thing, to keep his role and powers open to interpretation or beyond game stats (maybe that's why they chose to make him a god of sorts).

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 19 Feb 2014 13:10:28
Go to Top of Page

Marc
Senior Scribe

657 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  16:01:38  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Planescape powers are based on Earth mythology, guess that means Asmodeus is just a fiend, unless he's Ahriman in disguise.

.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  17:35:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the same token, you could say, "Midnight is just a wizard, after all".

Which wouldn't be true. What you start out as in 'the great scheme of things' isn't what you can become, especially in D&D.

Suppose Shaitan was an archangel/Celestial, and was charged with the imprisoning of enemies during the Godwar (which is laid-out in the 3e books). This would be at a VERY early time (maybe even 'before time'), and possibly before the formation of the Great Wheel itself.

Several possibilities present themselves - that Ahriman (the primordial/god) sought an instrument for his own vengeance/whatever, and found the vain Shaitan to his liking. A deal was struck, and Shaitan became Asmodeus, an (exarch-level?) underling of Ahriman. When Ahriman formed the great wheel with Jazirian, the Hells were formed and Asmodeus was set as its ruler. On the other hand, The Great Wheel could have already been formed (and may have even been the reason for the initial conflict) - it really doesn't matter though.

Either Ahriman absorbed Shaitan and created the combined being (Aspect) known as Asmodeus, or Shaitan (under the guise of Asmodeus) is still just a vassal of Ahriman... albeit an extremely powerful one. The time-frame doesn't really matter that much - either before or after the forming of the Great Wheel. Also, we really don't need to know if Asmodeus is a separate being, or even still a 'willing henchman' of Ahriman. For all we know, Ahriman may have gone 'the way of the Great Serpent' (and may even BE the World Serpent!), and has gone into a semi-comatose dormant state, leaving Asmodeus pretty-much in charge.

Now, if it were my campaign, I would say that it was Asmodeus himself who set the wheels in-motion to cause the fracturing of the World serpent/coma of Ahriman, because that would be something he WOULD do: Betray his 'boss' and take his place. He may or may not have started-out with that in-mind, but my bet would be on him having planned that all along (just as I am equally sure Ahriman planned to betray him). I picture Ahriman trying to stir every few centuries, causing massive upheaval in The Nine Hells.... but thats just part of the 'fun' of hell, eh? Then Asmodeus would have to expend a lot of time and energy 'soothing' the sleeping primordial god... a time during which the other archfiends would try to set all of their plans in motion (this is when the Hells get 'shaken up' every so often, quite literally).

Is it a perfect solution? Probably not... but it does marry all the disparate bits of edition-lore together in a neat little package, and thats something we GREATLY need to do in 5e. Everything must work - if you start tossing anything out, you will loose fans. There are things I would LOVE to simply dump, but thats not the right way to repair the rift that has become D&D (and FR).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2014 17:39:53
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  18:24:21  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markus, I seem to recall seeing in another thread (or two) that you have/were doing some kind of work for TSR/Wizbro (mapping I think it was). Have you ever just tried to get on the payroll? Seriously, the way you thread the bits and pieces of disparate lore together is what they need over there. That, and someone who TRULY loves the Realms for its own sake.

I sometimes make connections the way you do (well, back when I was more inclined to read the lore in the 2e days) but you are on an entirely different level than I am. I wish the guys at the company would look at what you, Demzer, Dazzler, GK and a few others do with the lore and take notes.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  19:02:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have been used in an 'advisory' capacity a couple of times, and have gotten to see certain things that aren't so... public, which is pay-enough, for me.

A couple of things I have done have made it into canon, as well.

As for being 'a professional', well... lets just say I have THREE current commissions, and only one of them is map-related.

Sadly... none are FR-related....................... YET.

As an aside, I think anyone who has been a DM - or even a player - for as long as I have (and not even that long) has it in them - the 'creative spark' - to be a designer/writer. What are we doing every time we play, if not 'creating'? That sense of accomplishment when your players get caught-up in the story; that sense of wonder they get when they finally unveil some 'hidden secret'. Thats what its all about - when the story just flows from your table into your imaginations... and beyond. When you can do that, its not a very far leap to writing it all down.

EDIT: Oh... and thanks for the High praise.
It means a lot.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2014 19:04:22
Go to Top of Page

Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  20:33:57  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

taken as a whole, the prior 2e and subsequent 3.x sources paint a fairly cohesive picture of Asmodeus as an originally LN outsider servitor of a primordial LN race prior to the origin of gods.
Did they? AFAIK that "servant of the original LNs nonsense" was only ever mentioned in the 3.x books
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

That said, Asmodeus was never a god because it made absolutely no sense for him to become one. It was a liability to become one, and within Hell he was more powerful than any deity to begin with. Gods were petty newcomers, and he had his sights on larger scale things.
Well, in 1e it was stated that all archfiends are lesser deities on their home planes and Ed wrote how he moved Bane to Acheron to avoid running into why, as a greater deity, he had not long ago dominated the lesser deities that are the LotN
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

It was a complete contradiction of what tieflings were for their entire D&D history on multiple levels. I truly don't understand the reasoning whatsoever, and I really do hope that they rectify the situation in 5e.
At least for FR they explained it. The tieflings weren't just retconned as "they were always that way" but the 4e tieflings are a result of a divine curse laid by Asmodeus through some willing participants upon the entire tiefling races.

They are no longer what they once were, because they were actively changed from that by ingame events

Edited by - Mirtek on 19 Feb 2014 20:37:34
Go to Top of Page

Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  21:37:59  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Did they? AFAIK that "servant of the original LNs nonsense" was only ever mentioned in the 3.x books


To an extent it's a synthesis on my part, but the 2e Planescape material, 3e MotP, 3e BotD I and II, and various bits of early planar history in Dragon and Dungeon magazine during the 3.x period fit together very nicely to paint the above picture I mentioned (a lot of the 3.x material explicitly and intentionally built off of the Planescape timeslines from Hellbound, details from Faces of Evil, etc).

And the fallen LN paragon fits nicely with the 3.x evolution of the Blood War to integrate the Queen of Chaos versus the Wind Dukes mythology that first appeared in 1e and then stuck out like a sore thumb during 2e as the planes and their history exploded in detail and didn't really address them properly.

Additionally the fallen LN paragon fits perfectly with the BotD I and Dragon/Dungeon reworking of the 2e yugoloth Heart of Darkness mythology to include obyriths and ancient baatorians seeded into the primordial Abyss and Baator, prior to the arrival of the baatezu in the latter case.


quote:
Well, in 1e it was stated that all archfiends are lesser deities on their home planes and Ed wrote how he moved Bane to Acheron to avoid running into why, as a greater deity, he had not long ago dominated the lesser deities that are the LotN


1e never exactly went into any real detail about planar history (Ed's early material on the Hells were really the most we got till 2e), and the relationship between gods and archdevils changes radically almost book by book. Are they gods? Are they big monsters? Are they both gods and big monsters? The power difference was almost there as more of a game rules perspective than a 'does this relationship fit within the in-game universe in a cohesive, realistic way'. Greenwood moving Bane to Acheron was one way to handle it, but it wasn't till 2e that McComb and others tried to genuinely explain why both gods and archfiends coexisted and one of them didn't make the others their slaves.

Unfortunately it's the scattershot representation of the precise nature of gods versus archfiends through D&D's history that has really been a problem time and again as new sets of designers favor one or the other, swapping position depending on who wrote which book.

Within the Great Wheel I'm very much in favor of the approach taken by McComb/Jacobs/Mona on the topic (and yes I accept the irony that the latter two then went a somewhat different route with gods and planar powers in Golarion, but there its been a cohesive direction from the start unlike in D&D wrt the Great Wheel)

quote:
At least for FR they explained it. The tieflings weren't just retconned as "they were always that way" but the 4e tieflings are a result of a divine curse laid by Asmodeus through some willing participants upon the entire tiefling races.

They are no longer what they once were, because they were actively changed from that by ingame events


Explained and explained well with respect to the previous material are very different things unfortunately.

That being said, on a more conciliatory note, for 5e I would actually accept him altering the appearance of devil-blooded tieflings to their 4e nature, but not demon/'loth/rakshasa/obyrith/demodand/etc tieflings. The kludgy imposition of core 4e tieflings into tieflings in general in other settings really puts me off them given the very different nature of tieflings in 2e, 3e, and while a different game technically, in PF.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  22:54:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suspect we were all led astray back in olde AD&D1E, where
1) game stats were given to all the gods/archfiends/etc, and
2) some were published in Deities&Demigods, others published in the monster books.

There might be little argument about Asmodeus if he had appeared in a Fiends chapter of Deities&Demigods. While there might be endless debate over, say, Cthulhu, if he had appeared in the Fiend Folio. I suspect that Gygax arbitrarily lumped devils and demons (and their archfiend overlords) into the monster books so that players had implicit “permission“ to kill them but not to worship them.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2014 :  23:16:30  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Wooly Blue Hamster
quote:
Ayrik
It has been said that Ao prevents gods of foreign worlds and pantheons from gaining divine status within his Realms. Imperfectly, of course, since Tyr and others apparently arrived uninvited to muscle their Realms faiths into existence ... but consistently enough that the many gods of Oerth, Krynn, etc, are largely kept away. If this is so, then perhaps old Asmodeus opportunistically consumed the power of a Realms godling to attune his power to the Realms, a way to (later?) establish his presence in the Realms without violating Ao‘s strictures.
That method does work... But it still begs the question of why he would want to do that.
Just speculating, but if Asmodeus *is* already a deity of any sort, then he would need Ao-spiced divinity to gain access (as a deity) to the Realms. If Asmodeus *is not* already a deity, then he of course gains a divinity template to add to his personal power portfolio. Although I am inclined to agree with Shemmy, Asmodeus has so much going for him that adding the requisite dependencies of divinity may burden him with more liability than asset - unless he plans to leverage the advantage to so purpose.

Does Asmodeus plan to kill/absorb other (and perhaps greater) deities? Does he plan to expand into mortal worlds such as the Realms? I don‘t know, and I doubt it‘s primarily intended to help win the Blood War (which has already been waged over half of eternity with little change in strategy, objective, or victor). The only thing of fiendishly cosmic import which Realmslore has “recently“ changed is the balance of power available to ambitious Mephistopheles ... this suggests that Asmodeus might have an interest in using the Realms as a tool to assert his dominance in their rivalry.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  00:13:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

IF thats the case - that the piece of Azuth he absorbed allowed him to interlope into Toril (as a god), then it can go either way if they bring back Azuth. Ao may decide that if he has enough of a following that he should stay in The Realms, regardless of still having that bit of Azuth inside him.

And if I were a betting man, I'd say they are going to leave that particular plot-point open... which I would like, because that would let everyone spin it the way they want for their games (so no edition-wars side-taking there - everyone gets what they want... sort of).

Azmodeus WAS a god for a century or so, and now Azuth has been restored (or not), so the folk of the Realms are unsure of what Asmodeus is or isn't. I think we will know just as much as the people in-setting know, which isn't really much at all, at the end of the day.



Personally, if they leave Asmodeus in they should also bring back Gargauth. Gargauth was always plotting a way to create a tenth layer of hell, so he wasn't a lackey of Asmodeus' (at least not as much as the other lords of hell). Let this play out, with both religions vying for worshippers even though both have similar views/portfolios. Hell, let there even be in-fighting between the two devil sects.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  00:17:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Proper deity or not, Asmodeus does (theoretically) command the obedience of every baatezu in the cosmos. Certainly, any true deity can slay legions of baatezu with little effort. But the devils are numerous, perhaps nearly infinite, and they can attack a deity where it *really* hurts by destroying or corrupting mortal worshippers.

It has been said that Ao prevents gods of foreign worlds and pantheons from gaining divine status within his Realms. Imperfectly, of course, since Tyr and others apparently arrived uninvited to muscle their Realms faiths into existence ... but consistently enough that the many gods of Oerth, Krynn, etc, are largely kept away. If this is so, then perhaps old Asmodeus opportunistically consumed the power of a Realms godling to attune his power to the Realms, a way to (later?) establish his presence in the Realms without violating Ao‘s strictures.



We don't know that Tyr and Heimdall/Helm didn't perhaps come from Anchorome or whereever the northmen came from. We know that Tyr as himself is first mentioned as Tyr showing up in the GHotR, but there's also anachtyr, for which we don't have a start date.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Milith holder of HB8
Seeker

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  05:59:59  Show Profile  Visit Milith holder of HB8's Homepage Send Milith holder of HB8 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The way I look at it, deities are not true gods, just insanely powerful beings, who are like exarchs to the true gods (who start at the Overgod level and go on from there). Its just another tier in the celestial hierarchy, is all. In a corporate setting, its like 'middle-management'.


...Being a god does not require you to be omnipotent, or any sort of 'oni' really. That's a very narrow view from a Abrahamic POV. The Greater Powers are true deities, which in reality starts from lesser powers and ranks upwards. The demipowers are perhaps not 'true deities', but only because they hold a small spark of divinity.

Nor is that even remotely true within FR. We see that the powers are upper management. In fact, they seemingly have total authority within their portfolios, even in spite of superior powers. Only Ao seems to be beyond such a thing and he's been repeatedly established as the most powerful entity within Realmspace. The only known being above him is the Supreme God, who seems to be the DM/Wizards of the Coast/Ed Greenwood.

quote:
Looking at it this way, I assume that fiend-lords and arch-angels(celestials) are of equivalent stature. Within that tier, Asmodeus would be the power-equivalent of an intermediate or greater deity, and the other hellords would be the equivalent of Michael or Gabriel (of the Christian mythos), who would be either demi- or lesser powers.


It is most assuredly NOT that way in FR. Angels and devils, even archangels and archdevils, appear to derive their power from a deity or through absorbing soul essence (as is the case of devils or fallen angels it seems).

quote:
The reason I think this way is BECAUSE oF FR - I'd prefer gods to more distant and aloof. However, if I am going to get a face-full of petty misfit munchkins walking around the world, then I am not going to think very highly of them (from a meta-gaming perspective). Maybe Eberron has 'true gods', but NOT The Realms.


Except they're not nor is that required to be a god. Nor are they exactly "petty misfits". They are occasionally portrayed poorly by Wizards or certain writers who just happen to miss the mark. But they are also portrayed as being wise, incredibly powerful, and far different some simply overpowered wizards.

quote:
Didn't Szass Tam summon Bane? And I recall Elminster summoning Eldath.. sounds like archfiends to me. Mortals shouldn't be able to force real gods to their bidding.



Szass Tam summoned Bane's avatar. And his summon was more like a polite invitation, not him dragging the Lord of Tyranny dragging and screaming to lick his boot.


As to comparing Asmodeus to Shar and Bane, I think such a comparisons need to take into account the massive difference in the three. First, Bane has a fair collection of subservient deities; Loviatar (Intermediate Power), Fzoul (demipower), Haor (demipower), Hruggek (demipower), Maglubiyet (demipower), Tiamat (lesser power), Abbathor (demipower). That's five demipowers, a Lesser Power, and an Intermediate Power. Asmodeus has his eight Archdevils, whose power are roughly on par with demipowers. Shar on the other hand, seems to have Zehir (likely a lesser power), Talona (Lesser Power), and Sseth (either Intermediate/Lesser Power--I'm guessing the later most likely).

Asmodeus has the most subservient deities, but they're all roughly of demipower status. Bane has the second most, with one being a lesser power and another being an Intermediate power. Shar has the least, but all three are of at least Lesser Power status. And unlike Asmodeus's lot, they're accepted as proper gods.

I would also say that while Shar and Bane have had proper churches on Toril for centuries longer, that proves nothing. Cyric and Kelemvor were nobodies before they ascended, yet they were able to produce churches that sustained their worship.

There is no real way of saying which deity is more powerful. It also doesn't come down to sheer power--divine political connections is another matter. And Asmodeus has access to the armies of hell, who have constantly been waging the Blood War solely against the Abyss and have been holding their own for countless centuries. And if the pre-Spellplague indicated anything, it was that he was the go-to for divine muscle. Even Cyric during his reign as Lord of the Dead seemed to have a contract to support him summoning a hundred Pit Fiends to sick on Torm.


Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood.

Edited by - Milith holder of HB8 on 20 Feb 2014 06:25:10
Go to Top of Page

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  12:04:44  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I suspect that Gygax arbitrarily lumped devils and demons (and their archfiend overlords) into the monster books so that players had implicit “permission“ to kill them but not to worship them.


It makes a lot of sense. And reading GtH once again, it says that Asmodeus IS Ahriman, who "reinvented himself as the Lord of Baator" and "confused matters further by changing his name", so "his powers and agenda remained obscure". The book says that he and Jazirian "predate the rule of belief in the planes. They neither gain power from the adoration of mortals, nor lose it from lack of worship", althoug this rule was imposed by lord Ao for every deity in Realmspace after the Time of Troubles, IIRC.

At least in GtH, law was represented by a LG cosmic serpent, that was Jazirian, and a LE serpent, Ahriman (he would be evil from the beginning, and both would represent different sides of law). And Ahriman/Asmodeus could hide his identity or status because he would be a power of lies, even being one of the ultimate powers of law in the multiverse (both being not necessarily contradictory).

But then, this is 2e cosmology. I think now he would be someting else, especially after the arrival of many other fiends and concepts. And let's consider it is non-FR material.

EDIT: format and clarifications

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 20 Feb 2014 12:12:07
Go to Top of Page

silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2014 :  16:09:28  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What if it was all a lie. He never really became a god and really has azuth trapped like wukeen was? Using him as a siphon to be worshipped and does not truly have a downsides og Goodwood?
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  00:09:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I must again agree with Shemmy.

The 2E Planescape Guide to Hell did present this legend about Asmodeus‘s origins (and powers). But this lore is not at all referenced in any other Planescape product outside of this one book. Surprisingly, it is contraindicated in other Planescape lore. Unsurprisingly, it is blatantly overwritten in 3E and 4E lore.

I‘m inclined to treat this legend as exactly that: possibly true (at least in part), possibly false (at least in part), possibly perpetuated (and probably given some elaboration, exaggeration, and fabrication) by lying and manipulating old Asmodeus himself. Other 2E sourcebooks (such as the Draconomicon, Complete Books of Elves and Dwarves, and Monster Mythology) authoritatively provide conflicting versions of other great legends, it seems that nobody can really agree on their myths and facts ... this one is likely no different.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Feb 2014 00:15:06
Go to Top of Page

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  12:08:25  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I‘m inclined to treat this legend as exactly that: possibly true (at least in part), possibly false (at least in part), possibly perpetuated (and probably given some elaboration, exaggeration, and fabrication) by lying and manipulating old Asmodeus himself. Other 2E sourcebooks (such as the Draconomicon, Complete Books of Elves and Dwarves, and Monster Mythology) authoritatively provide conflicting versions of other great legends, it seems that nobody can really agree on their myths and facts ... this one is likely no different.


I totally agree, especially considering that IMHO gods and extra-powerful planars HAVE to be mysterious and to have their origins, powers and status unknown to mortals (and so, what about a power which presides over LIES?). Most of these definitions will not change the immortal's agenda significantly, at least in the way he or she deals with mortals. Of course, I think it is nice to bring the elements of this published lore to our discussion, but at least for me as a DM, the truth in these maters is irrelevant.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2014 :  22:49:26  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You would think Asmodeus would‘ve been more inclined to consume Cyric‘s divinity than Azuth‘s. He‘s good at lies, not so good at wizards.

I expect devil-bound illusionists and spellbooks full of lies! Oooh, and pointy wizard hats decorated with hideous infernal glyphs instead of silly little stars, planets, and lucky charms. And maybe a little bargaining with devils to gain access to magic.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

jordanz
Senior Scribe

553 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2014 :  04:42:24  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I thought it has been fairly established that each greater deity is far more superior than any archfiend, Asmodeus included. Mystra pretty much toyed with Azzy in Elminster in Hell. And she could have annihilated whatever layer of the Nine Hells if she put her mind to it, only she would never dare, as the consequence would be to rip the fabric of reality itself. The negative energies of the Nine Hells would have spilled into Toril, and she would never let that happen.


It's been a while since I read Elminister in Hell but I reocall Mystra beating a hasty retreat after invading the Hells. Not sure why that was but when did she toy with Asmodeus?
Go to Top of Page

Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2014 :  18:36:03  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Milith holder of HB8

Szass Tam summoned Bane's avatar. And his summon was more like a polite invitation, not him dragging the Lord of Tyranny dragging and screaming to lick his boot.
Unfortunately not. As much as I hated this part of the book and like to think that it was only an aspect or avatar that was dragged down against his will, it was never stated as such in the book. It was only called Bane. And he was very much dragged from his realm against his explicit will. In fact the first demand he made of Tamm was to release the wards holding him since he had no time to loiter on the material plane but was needed in his realm instead.

I agree that it's utmost stupidity of Tamm being able to drag one of the most powerful greater deities down against his will and bind it on the material plane to such a degree that the deity can't just casually shatter these bonds and this scene really ruined the trilogy for me, that is what's actually written in that novel (and nevermind how ill it fits with how even demigods are portrayed the Cale novels)

And to think that Tamm's demand, after his magic just kidnapped and bound a greater deity, was to demand that said deity tell him how to "fix his magic" is even more stupid.

Really, I hope that some time somewhere it will state that Tamm did this to an aspect of Bane, that would really be the only way to make sense out of it.



Edited by - Mirtek on 22 Feb 2014 18:38:44
Go to Top of Page

Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1093 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2014 :  23:23:46  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wast't asmodeus supposed to be like the embodyment of evil and draw on evil in itself for power? Worshippers of no worshippers, when all that is evil in the multivers somehow feeds your with their thougt, feelins etc. you have quite the power... Think of him as the entire darkside of the force. Or am I off as usual?

Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 23 Feb 2014 09:02:41
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000