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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2013 :  04:31:43  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So I know this is another blackpit of oh noes!!

But I know folks that the greater gods had a realm that included some of the lesser gods and exarchs sharing the space with them, even if alignment did not match up, including malar being in a good gods realm.


WHere does Asmodeus fit along the path of things sharing a realm with him?

Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2013 :  04:52:19  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The other 8 archdevils are his exarchs. They all have some minor level of divinity within their layers. With his new god status, and all the powerful minions he has, he's up there with Shar and Bane as the most powerful evil deities. And I guess Lolth is up there too, since she owns the drow and commands lots of demons.
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jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2013 :  05:47:09  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of coarse LADY LOLTH is up there! Her webs encompass all...and the world is her PREY!

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2013 :  10:40:01  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Asmodeus is not on the same level as Shar or Bane when it comes to power. Asmodeus has his Lords of the Layers, that´s it as far as "exarchs" go.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2013 :  13:31:35  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He does not share his layer, Nessus, with anyone. Other gods have realms only in upper layers of Hell, e.g. Tiamat, Druaga, Set, Innana, Hecate etc.
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jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2013 :  20:36:07  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shar and bane have followers on multiple worlds in forgotten realms setting. Asmodeus has followers on multiple worlds and multiple game settings.each layer of baator is a World unto it self and all layers bow to the rule of asmodeus....so how could he NOT be the equal of share or bane? Asmodeus is even older than most of the realms gods.even older than the planet of toril itself. Only thing he was lacking was the spark of divinity to condense his resources and worship into a viable source of power...

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  10:02:09  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We speak of Toril which is one world. In this world, Shar and Bane have far greater numbers of followers. If we now go into the debate that followers mean power to a god, publicly accepted fact, then we can rightfully assume that Asmodeus is not on the same power level than Shar or Bane.
Asmodeus may have more followers on let´s say Oerth or what ever other sphere he may feel himself busy with, but in the sphere of influence that is Toril, his power due to the lack of worshippers, is NOT comparable with Shar or Bane.
You are free to disagree with me but i will never see Asmodeus as "equal" to those two, especially not after they jumped him to a greater deity without any good explanation in 4e and i percieve it as a simple agenda move of WOTC forced onto the realms to promote the new setting.
I have nothing against Asmodeus aside the fact that he is better off in the Nine Hells and not on Toril.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  12:10:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I thought it has been fairly established that each greater deity is far more superior than any archfiend, Asmodeus included. Mystra pretty much toyed with Azzy in Elminster in Hell. And she could have annihilated whatever layer of the Nine Hells if she put her mind to it, only she would never dare, as the consequence would be to rip the fabric of reality itself. The negative energies of the Nine Hells would have spilled into Toril, and she would never let that happen.

Every beginning has an end.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  13:07:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way I look at it, deities are not true gods, just insanely powerful beings, who are like exarchs to the true gods (who start at the Overgod level and go on from there). Its just another tier in the celestial hierarchy, is all. In a corporate setting, its like 'middle-management'.

Looking at it this way, I assume that fiend-lords and arch-angels(celestials) are of equivalent stature. Within that tier, Asmodeus would be the power-equivalent of an intermediate or greater deity, and the other hellords would be the equivalent of Michael or Gabriel (of the Christian mythos), who would be either demi- or lesser powers.

The reason I think this way is BECAUSE oF FR - I'd prefer gods to more distant and aloof. However, if I am going to get a face-full of petty misfit munchkins walking around the world, then I am not going to think very highly of them (from a meta-gaming perspective). Maybe Eberron has 'true gods', but NOT The Realms.

Didn't Szass Tam summon Bane? And I recall Elminster summoning Eldath.. sounds like archfiends to me. Mortals shouldn't be able to force real gods to their bidding.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Aug 2013 13:08:07
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  14:40:29  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm fine with Asmo being a god, I just want better lore surrounding his rise in power...ESPECIALLY since they made him a greater deity (and I'm sick of these HUGE power jumps btw, it's the same thing they did with Kelemvor and Cyric. I don't really count Midnight as there is canon lore that suggests she was no ordinary mortal to begin with).

This debate all gets back to my problem with emphasizing the gods in novels over mortals. Just how DO you take a (supposedly) unbelievably powerful entity, make them a primary character in a novel, and make them both interesting and believable (i.e., make the reader truly believe said being is VERY powerful without projecting mortal limitations on them). As I see it, the gods have become the FR 'supers' and, IMHO, have become LESS interesting and LESS believable as a consequence.

I'm with Markustay on this one. The way the FR gods are portrayed, they don't seem all that powerful. And, honestly, if you take a look at their write-ups in F&P, the greater gods don't seem TOO much stronger than say Mystra's Chosen and their avatars are a complete joke methinks. (This is why their avatars are only lesser aspects in my campaign, while the 'real' god is an avatar. No mortal, no matter how powerful, would stand even a remote chance against the more powerful gods in a fight in my homebrew).

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  16:44:18  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I thought it has been fairly established that each greater deity is far more superior than any archfiend, Asmodeus included. Mystra pretty much toyed with Azzy in Elminster in Hell. And she could have annihilated whatever layer of the Nine Hells if she put her mind to it, only she would never dare...



It depends on the source, that novel is extremely FR-centric, Mystra is the author's favorite, even more powerful than all other greater gods. I don't remember that she could destroy the layer, her attack appeared hit and run.

In other sources Asmodeus rules nine universes, has established the the outer planes structure, and could handle easily any typical FR half-a-continent god. His killing of Azuth seems more about gaining access to a club (pantheon) for some unknown purpose, than about increasing power directly.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  16:46:56  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage  Send Shemmy an AOL message  Send Shemmy an ICQ Message Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I thought it has been fairly established that each greater deity is far more superior than any archfiend, Asmodeus included. Mystra pretty much toyed with Azzy in Elminster in Hell. And she could have annihilated whatever layer of the Nine Hells if she put her mind to it, only she would never dare, as the consequence would be to rip the fabric of reality itself. The negative energies of the Nine Hells would have spilled into Toril, and she would never let that happen.



Depends entirely on what source you look at. Various 2e and 3e sources make it quite clear that within their own native planes, archfiends essentially have home field advantage when it comes to their respective power level versus gods. Demon lords and the Lords of the 9 are at a basic level the same as their respective planar layer, it being something of an extension of themselves, and any deity also on that layer is to an extent there as a guest.

There was discussion of Prince Levistus actually causing Set's deific domain in Hell to shrink as a result of his displeasure, the obyrith Pale Night being able to teleport within Lolth's deific domain in the Abyss despite Lolth's active ban on such at the time, various gods being within Hell at Asmodeus's sufferance, deities taking no active role in the Blood War as a direct result of fiendish intervention against them and their worshipers, etc.

Outside of their own respective native planes, archfiends are rather lesser than gods. They're not the same thing, and it's a very subjective comparison.

But of course, some sources also take a completely different perspective and treat archfiends as just big monsters for deities to kick around. I find the greatest support across the more detailed lore on the subject to say rather otherwise personally.

Additionally, EiH was rather more nuanced on the topic. Mystra obliterated tons of standard fiends, but never came into conflict with any of the diabolic nobility. Those lesser fiends were inconsequential really, but her presence within Hell would have caused severe repercussions on Toril had she stayed, and she actively limited her time there. The most we saw was a greater deity causing a momentary lapse in Asmodeus's concentration, so I wouldn't personally read too much into that to support the gods>archfiends position.

As far as Asmodeus gaining godhood in 4e FR, and the way in which he gained it. It didn't make sense whatsoever when taken in context with prior lore: it seemed to me a case of 4e core with its own very different cosmological assumptions being imposed on 4e FR. Asmo had neither a need nor a reason to gain divinity to be honest. For something as old as him, godhood would have been a liability.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.

Edited by - Shemmy on 08 Aug 2013 16:49:52
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  18:37:47  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
<-< , I would like to put the halt on why he became a god, for this thread please. We have had several threads already cover this, on this month alone. Just wanted to know what all lived in his realm and such .
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

508 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  21:34:12  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DennisI thought it has been fairly established that each greater deity is far more superior than any archfiend, Asmodeus included. Mystra pretty much toyed with Azzy in Elminster in Hell.
But at this point in time Asmodeus wasn't a greater deity himself.
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  21:47:19  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AT that point he wasn't also consider, El and his goddess were only at the 1st layer called Avernus, which is a leeway point much like other realms to other stuff. Portals and that sort of thing, so while it is part of the lord of sin's realm it is also the most traversed, if she went deeper I imagine her power would be mroe highly challenged.

Also consider in relative terms, she NEVER faced anyone of real power, she faced the equivalent of the hells mortals, although it did show pit fiends dieing quickly and such by her chosen and the various outcast who are powerful but no way in control of Avernus like a lord of hell would have. I think in retrospect, it would have been more interesting if the first lord of hell, Bel; had been involved somehow.
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jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  21:59:26  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I agree with shemmy.and remember several of the nine were angels" even solars" before they fell.asmodeus makes it a habit of slaying any angel that comes in his reach even before his apotheosis. Asmodeus and all the lords of hell gain power from the souls residing in the nine hells asomodeus has now went a step further and gains power from LIVING souls now too! He already had the raw power of a deity.he just needed a catalyse to allow him to wield those powers at full strength outside of hell. By the way, saz tam and elminster didn't summon those gods.they summoned the avatar of those gods. Big difference. Powerful priest have the spells to do it too!elven highmages also have the rituals to summon godly avatars and bind them (moander) or kill the god(takes a lot of life-force energy, thousands of hit points worth).notice it's says in lolths write up that SHE can be forced to appear,so I assume that is why the elves dnt use this ritual on her. Probaly had to find out the hard way that it won't work on her.lol

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2013 :  22:24:16  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lolth is an odd mix, she is "sorta" still a demon, depending on which edition you take your info from, you could also bind tiamat in such fashion.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2013 :  12:55:28  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I remember Cale and Riven found it impossible to summon shadows in Cania and Mephistopheles said it’s because even shadows (the supposed property of their patron, Mask [shared with Shar, of course]) answer only to him in his own domain. Mephistopheles is below Asmodeus in power level, and Cale and Riven, while powerful priests at the time, were no gods. But this example perhaps illustrates how an archfiend can have almost all the advantage in his own layer. Outside their turf, however, they’re just another “big bad monster.” If Telamont could render an archfiend immobile and unable to use his power in Toril (which he did to Mephistopheles), what more can a greater deity do?

Every beginning has an end.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2013 :  18:49:14  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I remember Cale and Riven found it impossible to summon shadows in Cania and Mephistopheles said it’s because even shadows (the supposed property of their patron, Mask [shared with Shar, of course]) answer only to him in his own domain. Mephistopheles is below Asmodeus in power level, and Cale and Riven, while powerful priests at the time, were no gods. But this example perhaps illustrates how an archfiend can have almost all the advantage in his own layer. Outside their turf, however, they’re just another “big bad monster.” If Telamont could render an archfiend immobile and unable to use his power in Toril (which he did to Mephistopheles), what more can a greater deity do?



It's worth noting that Telamont summoned and ambushed Mephistopheles, with 5 other archmages working in concert. They bound him with some kind of shadow chains and shackles, which may have required a ritual to prepare. And though the shadow magic suppressed his powers, Mephistopheles was still able to rock the entire Shade Enclave while struggling to escape.

You may be able to answer a question that always puzzled me. Remember when a human with devilish eyes (who seemed to be Mephistopheles) gave that crazy girl the other half of the book needed to summon the Shadowstorm? How was Mephistopheles able to manifest on the Prime Material Plane without being summoned?
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2013 :  09:59:57  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

We speak of Toril which is one world. In this world, Shar and Bane have far greater numbers of followers. If we now go into the debate that followers mean power to a god, publicly accepted fact, then we can rightfully assume that Asmodeus is not on the same power level than Shar or Bane.
Asmodeus may have more followers on let´s say Oerth or what ever other sphere he may feel himself busy with, but in the sphere of influence that is Toril, his power due to the lack of worshippers, is NOT comparable with Shar or Bane.
You are free to disagree with me but i will never see Asmodeus as "equal" to those two, especially not after they jumped him to a greater deity without any good explanation in 4e and i percieve it as a simple agenda move of WOTC forced onto the realms to promote the new setting.
I have nothing against Asmodeus aside the fact that he is better off in the Nine Hells and not on Toril.



Who says Asmodeus has fewer worshipers than Bane or Shar on Toril? As a greater god he'd have to have comparable followings. I'd be surprised if he didn't have significantly more, at least more than Shar; Asmodeus' cult is considerably more appealing than hers.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2013 :  12:15:09  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I say that he has fewer worshipers on Toril. I direct again to my statement on the forced agenda move for his divinity. 4e made him a deity, timeline wise that happened less than 100 years in the realms ago. Shar on the other hand for example has been a deity for millenia which means her workings have had a greater impact towards her divine power as she has gathered more followers over the course of time.
Asmodeus may have his cults but they are dwarved in comparison to the sharran faith before the Spellplague hit and once 4e made him a deity, the time passed does not warranted for him to be on the same level of power as a deity older and more powerful. We speak of the sphere of Toril, not the Nine Hells or another World. He is a newcomer god in the realms, newly established deities have to build up a following over time. Him being moved right away to greater deity, as we have debated in on other Scrolls before, is a bad design move caused by 4e concept of CORE DND being forced onto the realms.
You are free to disagree with me, but i stand by my statement.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2013 :  17:43:21  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

We speak of Toril which is one world. In this world, Shar and Bane have far greater numbers of followers. If we now go into the debate that followers mean power to a god, publicly accepted fact, then we can rightfully assume that Asmodeus is not on the same power level than Shar or Bane.
Asmodeus may have more followers on let´s say Oerth or what ever other sphere he may feel himself busy with, but in the sphere of influence that is Toril, his power due to the lack of worshippers, is NOT comparable with Shar or Bane.
You are free to disagree with me but i will never see Asmodeus as "equal" to those two, especially not after they jumped him to a greater deity without any good explanation in 4e and i percieve it as a simple agenda move of WOTC forced onto the realms to promote the new setting.
I have nothing against Asmodeus aside the fact that he is better off in the Nine Hells and not on Toril.



Who says Asmodeus has fewer worshipers than Bane or Shar on Toril? As a greater god he'd have to have comparable followings. I'd be surprised if he didn't have significantly more, at least more than Shar; Asmodeus' cult is considerably more appealing than hers.



Asmodeus has to have less worshippers, given his domain. "Sin" (rebellion against all the gods) was a poorly chosen portfolio to begin with. Shar's portfolio of "loss" gives her tons of worshippers. The Twilight War novels and "Mistress of the Night" (Priests series) do an excellent job of showing how Shar suckers people who feel hopeless into embracing her faith. Anyone can get caught in Shar's web, but devil worship isn't something everyone will be open to trying.

Worship of Asmodeus calls for rejection of ALL gods, which very few in Faerun are willing to do. Also, Shar and Bane both have powerful nations completely under their thumbs. Cults of Asmodeus aren't openly accepted anywhere (as far as I'm aware). Also, in addition to having a great portfolio (not many democracies in Faerun), Bane has the worship of goblins, evil dragons who worshipped Tiamat, and all of Loviatar's followers. No way Asmodeus can equal that (especially when he must compete for devil worshippers with Mephistopheles, Mammon, Levistus, etc).
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2013 :  18:11:02  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

I say that he has fewer worshipers on Toril. I direct again to my statement on the forced agenda move for his divinity. 4e made him a deity, timeline wise that happened less than 100 years in the realms ago. Shar on the other hand for example has been a deity for millenia which means her workings have had a greater impact towards her divine power as she has gathered more followers over the course of time.
Asmodeus may have his cults but they are dwarved in comparison to the sharran faith before the Spellplague hit and once 4e made him a deity, the time passed does not warranted for him to be on the same level of power as a deity older and more powerful. We speak of the sphere of Toril, not the Nine Hells or another World. He is a newcomer god in the realms, newly established deities have to build up a following over time. Him being moved right away to greater deity, as we have debated in on other Scrolls before, is a bad design move caused by 4e concept of CORE DND being forced onto the realms.
You are free to disagree with me, but i stand by my statement.



In my view, there was a better way to give Asmodeus divinity than the one WOTC used. Having Azuth fall into the Nine Hells half dead and get eaten was a badly executed story.

They should have had him become a god through creating a ton of new infernal pacts. The Weave collapsed, making magic difficult to learn and dangerous to access. 4e mentions that this caused an increase in warlock pacts (of which infernal pacts are the most common). With a sharp increase in mortals being open to warlock pacts, Asmodeus could have used his cunning to set the other archdevils against each other while he sponsored thousands of new warlock pacts on the Prime Material Plane.

Also, the death of many gods, the depowering of other gods, and the increasing danger of a world beset by enemies, would have caused people to become even more open to infernal pacts. Asmodeus could have seduced away the confused, grief stricken followers of gods the Spellplague eliminated. He could have corrupted good people who became discouraged by a world gone mad.

In short, it would have made for a compelling story if Asmodeus used his cleverness to benefit from the chaos the Spellplague created. Watching him establish a new order of devil worship on Faerun, and achieving divinity within the process, would have been more interesting than watching him become a god through blind luck.
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jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2013 :  01:12:13  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In lesser evil it is said that asmodeus is god of the tiefling race as a hole,regardless of the fiendish origin of the tiefling.

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

508 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2013 :  03:29:48  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I remember Cale and Riven found it impossible to summon shadows in Cania and Mephistopheles said it’s because even shadows (the supposed property of their patron, Mask [shared with Shar, of course]) answer only to him in his own domain. Mephistopheles is below Asmodeus in power level, and Cale and Riven, while powerful priests at the time, were no gods. But this example perhaps illustrates how an archfiend can have almost all the advantage in his own layer. Outside their turf, however, they’re just another “big bad monster.” If Telamont could render an archfiend immobile and unable to use his power in Toril (which he did to Mephistopheles), what more can a greater deity do?
However that scene was really inconsistent with his freaking out over a sliver of the least piece of divinity later in the series (he immediately shouts "tremple Asmodeus" after obtaing that little piece of divinity).

If a third of the power of a quasideity means so much to him, then one would assume that he better thinks twice about talking s##t to an intermediate deity who could crush him like an ant.
quote:
Originally posted by LilianviatenYou may be able to answer a question that always puzzled me. Remember when a human with devilish eyes (who seemed to be Mephistopheles) gave that crazy girl the other half of the book needed to summon the Shadowstorm? How was Mephistopheles able to manifest on the Prime Material Plane without being summoned?
I don't think this was Mephi, but rather an manifestation of Shar or Kesson Rel or some other of Shar's servants

Edited by - Mirtek on 11 Aug 2013 03:33:49
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
214 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2013 :  04:57:35  Show Profile Send ksu_bond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure who the human with devilish eyes was, but when looked at from the author's perspective this vague description who to some seemed to be Mephistopheles, Shar or one of her servants provides a tie/plot hook should it be needed at some later point. And if the author never addresses this vagueness it allows the DM something to grab onto and do a bit of plot building themselves.

So for me, at the moment and with the way things are looking in 5e I could see this as a tie for Mephistopheles and the increased conflict/interaction to come.
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