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Entromancer
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2013 :  01:38:23  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm reading The Last Threshold, and wanted to hear your opinions on Dahlia Sin'felle's character and characterization. By characterization, I mean how well Salvatore did or did not develop Dahlia as a believable character.

So let's hear them! I rather liked her in Gauntlgrym, don't remember much from Neverwinter (felt a bit like filler between Gauntlgrym and Charon's Claw), and also enjoyed her in Charon's Claw. As a sidenote, Herzgo Alegni reminds me a bit of Gregor Clegane (big ol brute who likes rape). Do you feel Dahlia's outlook toward Effron and attitude toward Drizzt and Entreri is plausible?

"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2013 :  22:10:25  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes.
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Renin
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2013 :  20:37:42  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel that her outlook is plausible.

Now, enjoyable to read? Nope to that, is my response!

While I wouldn't ever believe that she would a 'skipping in the meadows under a rainbow with bunnies and kittens' kind of gal, her last actions in the book still confuse the bloody hell out of me.

Then again, I believe too much of the book's ending was for convenience sake, but I'll end with this:

I believed in how Dahlia was healing, and progressing, and opening up to share. That didn't make her likeable, but at least relatable. But never enjoyable.
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2013 :  06:25:58  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really liked her until the end of Threshold. I feel her fight, particularly the outcome of the fight, cheapened any future character development and wonder if she'll ever learn the truth of what happened when Drizzt was left alone.

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2013 :  01:59:20  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Dahlia's a fantastic character, and I've never understood the extreme nature of the hatred toward her. Yes she's done evil things, but most RAS fans LOVED Artemis Entreri, long before RAS told us of the abusive childhood that drove him to be so heartless. Most RAS fans also loved Jarlaxle, even before he began his shift to being more neutral. For crying out loud, it was regularly argued that Jarlaxle was good, just because he wasn't as excessively cruel as other drow.

Don't get me wrong. I can see how Dahlia isn't everybody's cup of tea. But the vast majority of RAS fans HATE her, and it's been a strong level of hatred since she first appeared. There have been plenty of evil characters in RAS novels (since he writes about drow very often), and I haven't seen ONE bad/morally grey character receive the hate that Dahlia has. Also, the way she killed Herzgo Alegni was BEASTMODE.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2013 :  03:29:42  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess some see being emo as a male priveldge. Or maybe people didn't like her aking cattie-bries place.

Personally I liked the character and really enjoyed seeing her and her son reconcile.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2013 :  03:31:16  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also the subject of rape which is key to her back story makes people way more uncomfortable then murder and battle.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2013 :  04:14:12  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dahlia's past was terrible, and she is naturally emotionally scarred. I like scarred characters; several of my own have traumatic pasts, including rape. I actually liked Entreri more once his past was revealed in the Sellswords trilogy. However, Dahla's lusty attitude confuses me a bit because she was a rape victim. One would think she'd be afraid of sex, not trying to seduce practically every man she sees. Perhaps it is her way of erasing Quick's touch, but it doesn't make that much sense to me, personally.

I do not like the effect Dahlia had on Drizzt. I think she played on his heartache and weakness, turning him into a lust-filled character that he wasn't before. I mean, all they did was have sex and fight bad guys. That's not a healthy relationship, and I rolled my eyes more often than not.

I am one of those who do not like Dahlia. She drove me nuts, and I wouldn't shed any tears over her death.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2013 :  21:20:44  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Dahlia's past was terrible, and she is naturally emotionally scarred. I like scarred characters; several of my own have traumatic pasts, including rape. I actually liked Entreri more once his past was revealed in the Sellswords trilogy. However, Dahla's lusty attitude confuses me a bit because she was a rape victim. One would think she'd be afraid of sex, not trying to seduce practically every man she sees. Perhaps it is her way of erasing Quick's touch, but it doesn't make that much sense to me, personally.

I do not like the effect Dahlia had on Drizzt. I think she played on his heartache and weakness, turning him into a lust-filled character that he wasn't before. I mean, all they did was have sex and fight bad guys. That's not a healthy relationship, and I rolled my eyes more often than not.

I am one of those who do not like Dahlia. She drove me nuts, and I wouldn't shed any tears over her death.



My interpretation of Dahlia's sexuality is that she has become like Alegni (her rapist). If you notice the relationships that were described in Gauntlgrym, she was domineering in both of them. And she kills all her lovers once she grows bored of them. She empowered herself physically so that she could be the one who uses sex as a weapon, just as it was used against her.

On the note of her death, it was made clear in Gauntlgrym that she WANTS to die. She chose Drizzt as a lover precisely because she knew she couldn't defeat him. Of course, she didn't expect him to refuse to fight back when she attacked him. She's tried all these extreme measures to bring herself peace and happiness, but she has given up by the time she met Drizzt.

Readers should keep in mind that Dahlia is barely a teenager by elf standards. Everyone keeps expecting her to react more maturely and rationally to the world around her, the way Drizzt, Entreri, or Jarlaxle would. But they are all MUCH older than her.

And that's not a jab at you. When reading Brimstone Angels, I kept getting frustrated with the main characters (17 year old tiefling twins). I had to constantly remind myself that Erin Evans was depicting the reaction of teenage girls to extraordinary circumstances. So of course they won't think like I would.
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Cpt420
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2013 :  23:54:18  Show Profile Send Cpt420 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes I enjoyed reading her as a character.
I particularly found it her dark past very interesting read and thought her actions toward sex & relationships spot on and accurate.
Much as you see girls with a heavy background of sexual abuse and activity in jobs and situations such as;
Strippers, prostitutes, porn stars and sometimes normal life but very promiscuous. You very often find that cases with this kind of abuse at an early age leads to hyper sexual activity, that the girls (and boys) even think they enjoy their sexuality.
Also the way she uses Drizzt, is again (IMHO) spot on.
As stated in Charon's claw (in sewers with snake/aboloth) she is looking to eventually be killed by one of her lovers. She does not gain pleasure from sex, to her it seems more a tool to be used to get what she wants, Drizzt's even muses over this many times. She finds powerful fighters, beds them to gain their assistance to kill her target, then kills them when they are no longer useful. That's classic textbook rape victim behavior.
Yes I enjoyed Dahlia, and hope to see/read more of her and her lovers.....Pwent I'm looking at you.
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2013 :  13:24:42  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't really care for her myself. One totally angst ridden character in a novel is quite enough for me. I understood her story and feelings etc and in a different novel i might have been into her more. However, i don't read the realms to be depressed.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2013 :  21:52:49  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Long story short, Salvatore was able to write a character who, in the first novel she appeared in, was far and away the worst character I had ever read outside of fan fiction, and over the course of three more novels turn her into someone I kind of liked but not very much. So, credit where it's due, I can't say that's not a success.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Kyrel
Learned Scribe

151 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  16:36:42  Show Profile  Visit Kyrel's Homepage Send Kyrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally I liked Dalia. I wasn't much fond of her staff, and I disliked her son and how the two "made up". As a character, however, I quite liked her. She had a depth to her, which I liked, and her pragmatic perspective on the world is much more along the lines of the type of character I prefer to play and read about. It's the same reason I actually prefer Artemis Entreri and Jarlaxle over Drizzt and the Companions of the Hall. Dalis is/was by no means a hero character in the traditional sense of the word, and that I found quite nice. I also liked the way that the character was fleshed out over the trilogy, though again, I'd have preferred another development between her and her son. Were I to choose between her and Catibrie, I'd pick Dalia.
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shorac
Acolyte

USA
29 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2014 :  04:39:11  Show Profile Send shorac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wanted drizzt to kill her sooo badly or entreri...

.......<creator>....
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Morgoloth
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2014 :  15:36:00  Show Profile Send Morgoloth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ugh, Dahlia's greatest achievement with me is that she became one of my most hated characters in the Realms in short order, though still levels below Elminster, of course. I basically groaned, rolled my eyes, or grumbled anytime I saw her on a page.

I hated that the first two books felt like they were hammering that somehow, I should take this teenage elf to be as credible a, if not a better, fighter than Drizzt or Entreri. Sorry, nope. You want to say Athrogate or Bruenor? Sure. These are fighters who have lived and fought for centuries. Dahlia shouldn't even be in that bracket and we are constantly bludgeoned by Bob that she is at least as good as them.

Then there was the craptastic effect she had on Drizzt. Somehow Drizzt, who's moral clarity has always been to the core of the character, who has endured centuries of trials and tribulations, including life in Menzoberranzan, can have his morale be shaken and questioned by Dahlia? Suddenly Drizzt is unable to think with anything but the scimitar between his legs? I can't take it seriously when Dahlia's one sided response to any argument is "stuff is tough so she have to be rough."

And then of course, there is her constant woe is me crud. Dahlia acts as if no one in the Realms has suffered what she has. News flash but unfortunately, rape in the Realms is not an uncommon thing. And I am not trying to trivialize her tragedy, but when Dahlia constantly has to bash her opinion in on the premise of "boo too, I suffered, now I hate everything," it is hard not to loathe her after a while. Hell, Entreri even tells her that life in Menzo is worse than anything she went through and she actually snorts. No Dahlia, guess what? It is.

To hell with Dahlia and I hope she is swiftly killed, or at the very least, put in her place. That is my main grief. That she never gets set straight or given her come uppance. If anything, her defeat of Drizzt just makes it all the more unsatisfying as a reader.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2014 :  17:18:31  Show Profile Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Dahlia's a fantastic character, and I've never understood the extreme nature of the hatred toward her. Yes she's done evil things, but most RAS fans LOVED Artemis Entreri, long before RAS told us of the abusive childhood that drove him to be so heartless. Most RAS fans also loved Jarlaxle, even before he began his shift to being more neutral. For crying out loud, it was regularly argued that Jarlaxle was good, just because he wasn't as excessively cruel as other drow.

Don't get me wrong. I can see how Dahlia isn't everybody's cup of tea. But the vast majority of RAS fans HATE her, and it's been a strong level of hatred since she first appeared. There have been plenty of evil characters in RAS novels (since he writes about drow very often), and I haven't seen ONE bad/morally grey character receive the hate that Dahlia has. Also, the way she killed Herzgo Alegni was BEASTMODE.



Dahlia is far too emo for me. It is the same reason I do not like that psionicist that is addicted to the Mythal of Sakkors. I just cannot view drug addict characters in a postive light.

Not only is Dahlia evil she is an EMO villain. It makes me hate her all the more. I am hoping not to see her appear, or if she does that the other companions drive her off.

She did cool things, but she did not work with Drizzt. I was very pleased to see her not appear in the companions.

Hopefully Bruenor would tell her to get over herself, cry it out in the corner, or face his axe.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2014 :  17:19:26  Show Profile Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Morgoloth

Ugh, Dahlia's greatest achievement with me is that she became one of my most hated characters in the Realms in short order, though still levels below Elminster, of course. I basically groaned, rolled my eyes, or grumbled anytime I saw her on a page.

I hated that the first two books felt like they were hammering that somehow, I should take this teenage elf to be as credible a, if not a better, fighter than Drizzt or Entreri. Sorry, nope. You want to say Athrogate or Bruenor? Sure. These are fighters who have lived and fought for centuries. Dahlia shouldn't even be in that bracket and we are constantly bludgeoned by Bob that she is at least as good as them.

Then there was the craptastic effect she had on Drizzt. Somehow Drizzt, who's moral clarity has always been to the core of the character, who has endured centuries of trials and tribulations, including life in Menzoberranzan, can have his morale be shaken and questioned by Dahlia? Suddenly Drizzt is unable to think with anything but the scimitar between his legs? I can't take it seriously when Dahlia's one sided response to any argument is "stuff is tough so she have to be rough."

And then of course, there is her constant woe is me crud. Dahlia acts as if no one in the Realms has suffered what she has. News flash but unfortunately, rape in the Realms is not an uncommon thing. And I am not trying to trivialize her tragedy, but when Dahlia constantly has to bash her opinion in on the premise of "boo too, I suffered, now I hate everything," it is hard not to loathe her after a while. Hell, Entreri even tells her that life in Menzo is worse than anything she went through and she actually snorts. No Dahlia, guess what? It is.

To hell with Dahlia and I hope she is swiftly killed, or at the very least, put in her place. That is my main grief. That she never gets set straight or given her come uppance. If anything, her defeat of Drizzt just makes it all the more unsatisfying as a reader.



+1


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2014 :  17:52:38  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The entire Neverwinter quadrilogy was a tad too emo for me. That and the whole marketing direction those books took for the Neverwinter 'campaign setting' turned me off on many occasions. That said, I did find Dahlia's character interesting. The whole 'sleeping with the enemy' vibe worked on a couple different levels and you just knew that no matter how hard he tried, no matter what progress he made, Drizzt's attempts to heal her would ultimately fail. She was just such an irrevocably damaged individual and it was nice to see Drizzt try, and more importantly, fail to cope with that. I hope it leaves a permanent mark on his character so that he no longer sees things in such black and white terms and stops whining about being in love with a short-lived human woman or whether it'd be prudent to have children or not.

I don't expect her to be a recurring character in future novels (though I could easily be wrong), though I'd like to see Ambergris and Afafrenfere come back minus Dahlia and Entreri. What I don't want to see is a psychologically happy Dahlia living contentedly with Effron and Entreri. I expect however, that we haven't seen the last of Entreri and he might still be hanging out with them.

As for Dahlia's promiscuity, several psychological studies show that it is a common long-term aftereffect of abuse in humans, though I guess it might seem unusual in an elf - although saying that, with elven reverie, any aftereffects of abuse could become more pronounced. Just look at Ellifain for an example: didn't realise how crazy she was until after she died.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Entromancer
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2014 :  03:50:39  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't mind Dahlia defeating Drizzt; it put me in the mind of The Pirate King, which was my favorite Drizzt novel until The Companions. Anyway, thanks for the detailed responses.

@Morgoloth: That does sound a bit dehumanizing, the "boo hoo" bit. I can appreciate and respect that you didn't care for her killing Drizzt, but that bit about her rape is too much. I do think that your friends have a big influence on you. Drizzt might not turn into a morally ambiguous character permanently, but having his viewpoints challenged is a nice development. It makes his moral core all the stronger if he succeeds.


"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2014 :  03:54:26  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Morgoloth

I hated that the first two books felt like they were hammering that somehow, I should take this teenage elf to be as credible a, if not a better, fighter than Drizzt or Entreri. Sorry, nope. You want to say Athrogate or Bruenor? Sure. These are fighters who have lived and fought for centuries. Dahlia shouldn't even be in that bracket and we are constantly bludgeoned by Bob that she is at least as good as them.

They only hammered home that various characters thought she was very proficient. Arthrogate exagerrated her relative ability, comparing her to the arch-fighters, but he exagerrates all the time. That brings up the familiar problem of unreliable narrator.

Maybe Bob wanted to sew some seeds of doubt in our minds. I don't know. But I definitely notice that he only had characters tell us as much, while never actually using the third-person omniscient god's-eye-view narrator voice to tell it to us.

It is possible that some closeted sexist, would-be enlightened male characters were supremely surprised by her fighting ability (maybe in part due to low opinions of women in the first place?), but in some misguided effort to convince themselves and others of their respect for females, they might've overestimated and overstated her ability. Perhaps they were grading her on a curve, or overcompensating, so to speak?

quote:
Then there was the craptastic effect she had on Drizzt. Somehow Drizzt, who's moral clarity has always been to the core of the character, who has endured centuries of trials and tribulations, including life in Menzoberranzan, can have his morale be shaken and questioned by Dahlia? Suddenly Drizzt is unable to think with anything but the scimitar between his legs?

I think Drizzt's attitude had a lot more to do with the loss of his Companions than it did with the presence of Dahlia. His core and moral clarity were undermined by the loss of the very people whom his core and clarity were meant to serve and protect. Dahlia simply took advantage of him during his time of weakness.

Throw in the temptation to heroicly try to fix (What?! I said "FIX"--What'd you think I said? ) her, and Drizzt couldn't help but be hooked.

It wasn't so "sudden", as you make it out to be. Drizzt lost Wulf in 1372 DR (The Orc King) and again in 1377 DR (The Pirate King), and then lost contact with him altogether; then lost Cat & Reg in 1385 DR (The Ghost King); and then began decades' worth of blind, fruitless exploring with Bruenor to find motivation and inspiration (Gauntlgrym); only to lose Pwent and Bruenor in 1462 DR (Gaunt.). So it took time to wear him down.

Enter Dahlia...

quote:
I can't take it seriously when Dahlia's one sided response to any argument is "stuff is tough so she have to be rough."

And then of course, there is her constant woe is me crud. Dahlia acts as if no one in the Realms has suffered what she has. News flash but unfortunately, rape in the Realms is not an uncommon thing. And I am not trying to trivialize her tragedy, but when Dahlia constantly has to bash her opinion in on the premise of "boo too, I suffered, now I hate everything," it is hard not to loathe her after a while. Hell, Entreri even tells her that life in Menzo is worse than anything she went through and she actually snorts. No Dahlia, guess what? It is.

She's young and immature, and also traumatized. Apparently, she never got to experience enough of life in a healthy way to be able to attain a decent perspective of her place in the world. She's stuck in a childish mindset, except with a huge chip on her shoulder, and I presume a bunch of Thayan courtly empowerment and encouragement for her to act out on her anger. She was never provided a truly nurturing environment to get through her grief and suffering, but instead was exploited and turned into a sexual and violent weapon.

It's not likeable. But guess what? It happens.

quote:
To hell with Dahlia and I hope she is swiftly killed, or at the very least, put in her place. That is my main grief. That she never gets set straight or given her come uppance. If anything, her defeat of Drizzt just makes it all the more unsatisfying as a reader.


There was a time when I wanted her to be mercifully put out of her misery. The wounded elf needed to be put down, and the people around her needed to be protected from her as an ongoing liability.

But after she completely forsook Drizzt's affection and whacked him like that (The Last Threshold), now I want her to hurt some more before she dies a deliciously horrific death.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe

USA
108 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2014 :  04:46:53  Show Profile Send charger_ss24 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Morgoloth

I hated that the first two books felt like they were hammering that somehow, I should take this teenage elf to be as credible a, if not a better, fighter than Drizzt or Entreri. Sorry, nope. You want to say Athrogate or Bruenor? Sure. These are fighters who have lived and fought for centuries. Dahlia shouldn't even be in that bracket and we are constantly bludgeoned by Bob that she is at least as good as them.

They only hammered home that various characters thought she was very proficient. Arthrogate exagerrated her relative ability, comparing her to the arch-fighters, but he exagerrates all the time. That brings up the familiar problem of unreliable narrator.

Maybe Bob wanted to sew some seeds of doubt in our minds. I don't know. But I definitely notice that he only had characters tell us as much, while never actually using the third-person omniscient god's-eye-view narrator voice to tell it to us.

It is possible that some closeted sexist, would-be enlightened male characters were supremely surprised by her fighting ability (maybe in part due to low opinions of women in the first place?), but in some misguided effort to convince themselves and others of their respect for females, they might've overestimated and overstated her ability. Perhaps they were grading her on a curve, or overcompensating, so to speak?

quote:
Then there was the craptastic effect she had on Drizzt. Somehow Drizzt, who's moral clarity has always been to the core of the character, who has endured centuries of trials and tribulations, including life in Menzoberranzan, can have his morale be shaken and questioned by Dahlia? Suddenly Drizzt is unable to think with anything but the scimitar between his legs?

I think Drizzt's attitude had a lot more to do with the loss of his Companions than it did with the presence of Dahlia. His core and moral clarity were undermined by the loss of the very people whom his core and clarity were meant to serve and protect. Dahlia simply took advantage of him during his time of weakness.

Throw in the temptation to heroicly try to fix (What?! I said "FIX"--What'd you think I said? ) her, and Drizzt couldn't help but be hooked.

It wasn't so "sudden", as you make it out to be. Drizzt lost Wulf in 1372 DR (The Orc King) and again in 1377 DR (The Pirate King), and then lost contact with him altogether; then lost Cat & Reg in 1385 DR (The Ghost King); and then began decades' worth of blind, fruitless exploring with Bruenor to find motivation and inspiration (Gauntlgrym); only to lose Pwent and Bruenor in 1462 DR (Gaunt.). So it took time to wear him down.

Enter Dahlia...

quote:
I can't take it seriously when Dahlia's one sided response to any argument is "stuff is tough so she have to be rough."

And then of course, there is her constant woe is me crud. Dahlia acts as if no one in the Realms has suffered what she has. News flash but unfortunately, rape in the Realms is not an uncommon thing. And I am not trying to trivialize her tragedy, but when Dahlia constantly has to bash her opinion in on the premise of "boo too, I suffered, now I hate everything," it is hard not to loathe her after a while. Hell, Entreri even tells her that life in Menzo is worse than anything she went through and she actually snorts. No Dahlia, guess what? It is.

She's young and immature, and also traumatized. Apparently, she never got to experience enough of life in a healthy way to be able to attain a decent perspective of her place in the world. She's stuck in a childish mindset, except with a huge chip on her shoulder, and I presume a bunch of Thayan courtly empowerment and encouragement for her to act out on her anger. She was never provided a truly nurturing environment to get through her grief and suffering, but instead was exploited and turned into a sexual and violent weapon.

It's not likeable. But guess what? It happens.

quote:
To hell with Dahlia and I hope she is swiftly killed, or at the very least, put in her place. That is my main grief. That she never gets set straight or given her come uppance. If anything, her defeat of Drizzt just makes it all the more unsatisfying as a reader.


There was a time when I wanted her to be mercifully put out of her misery. The wounded elf needed to be put down, and the people around her needed to be protected from her as an ongoing liability.

But after she completely forsook Drizzt's affection and whacked him like that (The Last Threshold), now I want her to hurt some more before she dies a deliciously horrific death.



I'm still holding out hope that Jaralaxle and/or Artemis will see to that request.

I'm not expecting it though.
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Tamsar
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
141 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2014 :  17:43:04  Show Profile Send Tamsar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Night of the Hunter Spoiler:























She has a different surname now :)

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  20:48:44  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After reading "Night of the Hunter", a lot of fans will owe RAS an apology. His use of Dahlia is brilliant; we just had to be patient.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2014 :  13:48:11  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm I did not plan to read that as I frankly did not care much for the Neverwinter books or for Dahlia but now you have made me curious.
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yurilowell
Acolyte

28 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2014 :  14:39:11  Show Profile Send yurilowell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I still don't know how I feel about what has become of her. Just a bit to out of place for me. None the less, pretty crazy twist and certainly has some MAJOR implications.

Wonder if Bob had this planned all along or if while he was writing for her in the last couple books her story led itself to this.

"It's a Drizzit!!!"

“Get him, ser, get him, get him, he's right there!!!”

Edited by - yurilowell on 13 Mar 2014 14:43:10
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Schreckstoff
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2015 :  21:58:41  Show Profile Send Schreckstoff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I loved her, she was just what Drizzt needed at the time. Knowing full well the relationship would get nowhere it was great until the whole Entreri ordeal started, I didn't mind the cheating but I hated how their relationship came to be. The mind share Drizzt blocked himself off to by giving in to the Hunter felt like a weak reason to introduce a love triangle.

Well I did get a real kick out of how Drizzt ended the love triangle so nonchalantly.

That said, she and the slew of the companions where a tool to show Drizzt that Cattie-Brie is his one true love and that he can't make any makeshift troupe his companions to be content with. (Ambergris and Afafenfere are awesome btw)

Dahlia's self contained story is pretty cliché and her weapon and combat style never made particular sense, not to mention her hairstyle.

Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check

Edited by - Schreckstoff on 13 Mar 2015 22:10:15
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BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
382 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2015 :  01:32:11  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really like the Dahlia + Entreri relationship; much more interesting than Drizzt + Cat. If she has any chance of redemption (and I hope she does), it will be due to Entreri. He will succeed where Drizzt utterly failed.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2015 :  05:09:30  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't WANT to see her redeemed, though.

She smacked Drizzt in the head.

I just want her killed to death.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Schreckstoff
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2015 :  10:37:29  Show Profile Send Schreckstoff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

I really like the Dahlia + Entreri relationship; much more interesting than Drizzt + Cat. If she has any chance of redemption (and I hope she does), it will be due to Entreri. He will succeed where Drizzt utterly failed.



What exactly is better about it? Dahlia already had her chance, Drizzt didn't fail Dahlia did.

I've never been much of antihero Entreri fan, I liked antagonist Entreri, and I don't really care about the one upping anymore, which has long been concluded.

Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check
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BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
382 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2015 :  13:45:29  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff

quote:
Originally posted by BenN

I really like the Dahlia + Entreri relationship; much more interesting than Drizzt + Cat. If she has any chance of redemption (and I hope she does), it will be due to Entreri. He will succeed where Drizzt utterly failed.



What exactly is better about it? Dahlia already had her chance, Drizzt didn't fail Dahlia did.

Entreri & Dahlia are more complex, and thus interesting characters compared to Drizzt & Cat, IMO. I think E&D are in some ways kindred spirits; Dahlia is the first person that Entreri opens up to about his past, so presumably he feels the same way too. For my tastes, Drizzt is too one-dimensional & goodie-two-shoes. Dahlia failing is part of what makes her interesting, for me anyway. Drizzt was rather callous in turning his back on her IMO.
quote:
I've never been much of antihero Entreri fan, I liked antagonist Entreri, and I don't really care about the one upping anymore, which has long been concluded.


For me, Entreri became much more interesting when he started becoming more complex; it's now easier to empathize with him to some extent.
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Schreckstoff
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2015 :  19:29:39  Show Profile Send Schreckstoff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff

quote:
Originally posted by BenN

I really like the Dahlia + Entreri relationship; much more interesting than Drizzt + Cat. If she has any chance of redemption (and I hope she does), it will be due to Entreri. He will succeed where Drizzt utterly failed.



What exactly is better about it? Dahlia already had her chance, Drizzt didn't fail Dahlia did.

Entreri & Dahlia are more complex, and thus interesting characters compared to Drizzt & Cat, IMO. I think E&D are in some ways kindred spirits; Dahlia is the first person that Entreri opens up to about his past, so presumably he feels the same way too. For my tastes, Drizzt is too one-dimensional & goodie-two-shoes. Dahlia failing is part of what makes her interesting, for me anyway. Drizzt was rather callous in turning his back on her IMO.
quote:
I've never been much of antihero Entreri fan, I liked antagonist Entreri, and I don't really care about the one upping anymore, which has long been concluded.


For me, Entreri became much more interesting when he started becoming more complex; it's now easier to empathize with him to some extent.



Dahlia isn't complex, she's entirely cliché. A rapevictim that has become man- and selfhating on her way to redeem herself.

If Drizzt is a one dimensional goodie two shoes so is Entreri a one dimensional antihero.

For the record, I don't think either is one dimensional.

Entreri and Dahlia aren't kindred spirits and they didn't open up to each other, their story was forced upon each other. Not to mention that Entreri isn't any different to when they first traveled together and she wanted nothing more than to kill him at the time.
Drizzt also didn't turn his back on her, should he have pitybanged her?
Also if what you think about Entreri and Dahlia is true then Drizzt pushed her in the direction.

Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check

Edited by - Schreckstoff on 14 Mar 2015 19:30:32
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