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Knightfall
Learned Scribe
Canada
148 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 07:05:58
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One of the deities I'm resurrecting for my homebrewed PA-Realms is the time god Chronos. However, there doesn't seem to be much about him online (that I have found).
All I knw so far is what is written on the FR wiki, as well as a snippet on Wikipedia.
So, what is Chronos' canonical history? Was he super-powerful or more obscure?
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 07:16:25
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| most lore states is that Labelos used the name during the tot iirc...... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 07:27:23
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There's pretty much no canon history about Chronos. The most is from the Four From Cormyr module (freely available online). He was worshipped in the small kingdom of Orva before it was lost beneath the Vast Swamp. A shrine to him and a statue are shown. Norrin Blackgrove of Thentia is apparently is sole living worshipper in whenever the module was set.
Demihuman Deities gives a bit more, saying that "Chronos, Karonis, or Kronus" was a long-forgotten aspect of Labelas Enoreth, the elven god of time.
There's a tomb and a ruin in eastern Cormyr bearing the name "Chonis", which some fans have theorised is another name for Chronos. These are briefly described in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave and marked on a map in Volo's Guide to Cormyr.
Obviously Chronos was the personification of time in Greek mythology. He's actually unrelated to the titan Kronus, but this is a common misconception and conflation of the two.
Given the small amount of info on him, I'd go with obscure, an interloper deity, a small god with a local following (like Melith, Poseidon, Isakkhu, Khass and other such obscure gods of the Realms), who died with Orva. Perhaps his portfolio or surviving followers were picked up by Labelas, and now he's known only to sages and lone, eccentric worshippers. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 17:23:43
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| Think we call those throw away story details. Used once for the purpose of what is needed and then never touched again. |
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Knightfall
Learned Scribe
Canada
148 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 19:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
There's pretty much no canon history about Chronos. The most is from the Four From Cormyr module (freely available online). He was worshipped in the small kingdom of Orva before it was lost beneath the Vast Swamp. A shrine to him and a statue are shown. Norrin Blackgrove of Thentia is apparently is sole living worshipper in whenever the module was set.
Demihuman Deities gives a bit more, saying that "Chronos, Karonis, or Kronus" was a long-forgotten aspect of Labelas Enoreth, the elven god of time.
There's a tomb and a ruin in eastern Cormyr bearing the name "Chonis", which some fans have theorised is another name for Chronos. These are briefly described in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave and marked on a map in Volo's Guide to Cormyr.
Obviously Chronos was the personification of time in Greek mythology. He's actually unrelated to the titan Kronus, but this is a common misconception and conflation of the two.
Thanks for this info... very informative. I'll take a look through Four From Cormyr. (I'm fairly certain that I have the PDF on my computer.)
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Given the small amount of info on him, I'd go with obscure, an interloper deity, a small god with a local following (like Melith, Poseidon, Isakkhu, Khass and other such obscure gods of the Realms), who died with Orva. Perhaps his portfolio or surviving followers were picked up by Labelas, and now he's known only to sages and lone, eccentric worshippers.
Hmm, I wasn't aware that there were other, obscure deities for the Realms. Is there a list of those deities? |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 02:23:49
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Not that I know off hand, but I recall some work years ago on developing the old pantheons of the Realms that would have listed them. I know most of these myself after discovering them. I play a freelance priestess (pantheist, but takes Waukeen as her matron) and theologist who likes to cultivate these small gods as a faith-based business investment. :)
Isakkhu and Khass were mentioned in The Complete Barbarian's Handbook. I wikied them here:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Isakkhu
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Khass
In Old Empires, Melith apparently holds the sphere of creativity in Chessenta, rather than Lathander.
There are a few priests of Poseidon in the Impilturan navy in Sarshel, according to The Bloodstone Lands.
The Desert of Desolation series gives us a few in the Raurin, before and after its inclusion in the Realms. A ruined spider-infested temple of Eilish (I like to think an older, misnamed or masculine aspect of Eilistraee); intolerant, one god Anu, worshiped by Durpari (presumably those who don't follow the Adama); and Amun-Re, surely of the Mulhorandi pantheon.
Core stuff tacked onto the Realms and incompletely edited tends to produce these odd references.
Spellbound gives us the Yuirwood pantheon: Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Zandilar the Dancer, and Elikarashae, later ascribed to the elven gods again.
I recall a nameless dead god buried deep beneath a certain mound somewhere up the Sword Coast, but can't recall where I read that. It sounds pretty Lovecraftian. ;)
And that's just in Faerun among the humans, not including racial gods or those of the Utter East, Kara-Tur, or Zakhara. Also not including aliases for various known gods that were surely older, smaller deities absorbed by the big ones: Zionil (Gond), Ayuruk (Ilmater), and so on. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 12:08:29
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BadCatMan, nice post, I've never noticed the Realms references in the Complete Barbarian deities. Besides, the entity with a Lovecraftian name buried in a mound in the Savage North is actually a demon/tanar'ri, named Zukothoth. It would be a fiend (one of the most powerful varieties of demon - a nalfeshnee), but definitely not a god. Of course, being a powerful demon it could have been worshipped by someone, but I haven't seen any references that could lead us to believe it happened in this specific case.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 22 Jul 2013 12:10:07 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 12:44:35
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| Aah! Where is that written? |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 17:07:00
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It was originally in 1e The Savage Frontier, and then it was copied in the 2e boxed set The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier. The 1e reference calls the nalfeshnee a "type IV demon", by the way.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 01:43:50
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| Huh. Thanks, but I don't think that was it. I could swear it was a temple or tomb to a dead or sleeping unnamed god. Maybe I was misremembering the One Stone (where a god jammed a huge rock into the earth to block a passage to the Nine Hells) in The North, but I'm still doubtful. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 03:24:57
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There was also an unknown dead or sleeping 'sea god' south of Aglarond - some of us theorized it could be yet another Yuir Totem, and I even thought it may have been a reference to Umberlee; at some point in history she may have been 'bound' somehow.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 04:16:27
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That reminds me of another: Murdane, goddess of reason and pragmatism, possibly a deity of Jhaamdath, until she was drowned by Umberlee:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Murdane |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 09:13:27
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Bending the world to my will.... I do cast Superior Thread Necromancy
Hey, Badcatman, I see Seker as another god in the old Desert of Desolation, so I'm kind of going "died during the orcgate war" maybe? He wasn't a sun god... but since Utu and Ra also died that year, having a god of light ALSO get killed makes one wonder if there weren't some darkness powers pulling strings (especially since the Sun also eclipsed). Its on page 82 of the rerelease of the gathered collection when it was converted to FR.
However, I was wondering about your reference to Anu in Desert of Desolation. Any idea where?
BTW, here we do have a part where people COULD say a portion of Greyhawk "copied" over to Toril or vice versa.
Hmmmmm, damned juicy... page 95
The voice of Martek came clear and cold across the battleground, saying "Fires that cleanse surround thee, Khalitharius, at my command. Fires of Ra, of Apollo, of Heimdal, snuff the burning hate. Fire of Justice, which burns in the hearts of the true, quench thee, Khalitharius, NOW."
So, we do officially have mention of Apollo and Heimdal... which I might blow off, except that they turn around and mention an Shrine of Balder on the same page. There is also mentioned a temple of Prometheus. Then in the temple of Balder on page 104 it mentions Odin, Loki, Frigg, the blind god Hod, the Norns.
Page 102 mentions ruined temples to the Greek goddess Tyche, Celtic god Dunatis (god of mountains and peaks), Finnish god Untamo (god of sleep and dreams), and Osiris
Man, I remember reading this when I was 15 (31 years ago), but with everything that's come later, I never went back (primarily because I knew they shoehorned this into the realms). However, it is technically canon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Oct 2017 09:42:08 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 10:33:58
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Anu is mentioned in both the original Desert of Desolation and the later collected Realms-fitted module, in relation to the Durpari and Bralizzar, such as on page 5 and his temple on page 16 of the collected module. He's worshipped by Durpari with an extremely puritanical and monotheistic bent. Which contradicts completely the more established Adama faith, so I imagine these Durpari are a separate people dwelling in the Raurin, outside the Shining Lands, dating back to before the Adama was introduced. He's probably an exile of the Untheric pantheon.
I think the crumbling of Imaskar and the rise of the Mulan and their gods, as well as visiting pre-Adama Durpari and pre-Enlightenment Zakharans produced all these odd little places in the Raurin, to explain the mixed Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Arabic influences. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 13:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Anu is mentioned in both the original Desert of Desolation and the later collected Realms-fitted module, in relation to the Durpari and Bralizzar, such as on page 5 and his temple on page 16 of the collected module. He's worshipped by Durpari with an extremely puritanical and monotheistic bent. Which contradicts completely the more established Adama faith, so I imagine these Durpari are a separate people dwelling in the Raurin, outside the Shining Lands, dating back to before the Adama was introduced. He's probably an exile of the Untheric pantheon.
I think the crumbling of Imaskar and the rise of the Mulan and their gods, as well as visiting pre-Adama Durpari and pre-Enlightenment Zakharans produced all these odd little places in the Raurin, to explain the mixed Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Arabic influences.
Ah, thank you. I knew that Powers and Pantheons had equated him and Enlil, but its nice to see a second source, and to also note that source as in the area near Raurin and Durpar (and thus close to the Shaar).
What surprised me though was the Greek (Prometheus), Norse (Balder), Finnish (Untamo), and Celtic (Dunatis) temples.
According to FR16 Shining South
Ulgarth was settled by the great empire of Raurin, in the height of its power. When the empire was destroyed, it endured centuries of barbarism. Warchiefs united the country several times during this period. They fought many skirmishes with other barbarians, particularly those in Durpar and Var the Golden. In DR 202, the barbarian tribes were nearly wiped out by the forces of Mulhorand.
So, maybe in DR 202 is when these religions totally died out?
Hmmm.... and interesting to note. The 4e map doesn't extend far enough to show Ulgarth, BUT it does show "Var the Golden" as "Var the drowned". So, in theory, IF a bunch of these places that "drowned" or disappeared in fact went to Abeir, we have another whole area here that we can play with having transferred and possibly coming back with a mix of Norse, Greek, Celt, and Finnish deities of our choosing (not necessarily a pantheon, but a collection of what we'd like to see).
Popular temples, Tymora (replacement for Tyche), Torm, and Lathander (replacement for Apollo), and apparently Tyr.
I know someone had said previously that this far eastern area looked to be a good Viking area (think it was Markustay), but there's a lot of good fits. A general is named Sinveri Trollkin who is a "renegade female elf from Dambrath who is one-quarter drow and a devout worshipper of Tyr, god of war and justice". So I'm picturing elf from Ulgarth, Crintri from Dambrath parentage. However, that would be in 2e.... updating to 3e, I'd change that parentage to be a hagspawn from Ulgarth and a Crintri, with the resulting child being kidnapped by the father and raised in Ulgarth.... and make "Trollkin" a last name given to bastards born of ugly humanoids (orcs, ogres, trolls, hags, etc....).
So, I don't see Ulgarth on the 4e map, and the only reference I see in 4e is to them being "lumped in by others with the beastlands". So possibly a portion of the country stayed and a portion transferred (because we know the spellplague didn't adhere to country lines).
Why do I care? This could add an additional region to the Unther/Mulhorand/Chessenta/eastern Shaar that I had pictured while in Abeir. Now if Ulgarth has bad relations with Unther and Mulhorand.... that doesn't mean they'd have bad relations with the newly forming Tharch of Peleveran, and the two could be trade partners. Hmmm, any other references to Ulgarth in 4e other than that one sentence? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 14:14:23
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Well, Powers & Pantheons does describe how several human cultures came from a planet almost certain to be Earth. The first two are Ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian. The next two I've estimated to be Ancient Greek and Roman, no doubt bringing the Greek gods like Poseidon, Prometheus, Tyche, and Chronos. The last I found to be Celtic/Irish (the dozen-king god is the Dagda), which brings Dunatis. The Finnish are also a possibility, what with Loviatar, Mielikki, and Kiputytto (though Ilmater is more likely to be a coincidence).
We can only confirm the Egyptian and Mesopotamians to have been brought over by the Imaskari, but it's possible they weren't the only ones. That all these other cultures have leftover representatives in the Raurin strongly implies they weren't. (The real reason of course is that these old modules use a random grab-bag of cultural elements and gods, which are then shoehorned into the Realms.)
I agree, these isolated cultures were probably eventually wiped out by the Mulhorandi and probably Untheric Empires, as well as by the dying land of the Raurin Desert, leaving only these mysterious ruins.
The Norse-like elements in the Utter East arrived much later, with Moonshaes Ffolk and Northmen colonisation.
Ulgarth is an odd duck to my mind. It should have an eastern theme, producing the Padhra and caught between Durpar and the Utter East, but it has this swerve to a western Faerûnian culture and gods. But consider how the land was settled by outlaws of Mulhorand in 348 DR. A small band of outlaws do not change a whole culture. But a large number of refugees driven out for cultural or religious differences could. It's hard to say who they might have been however.
For Sinveri Trollkin, there's an odd link: the English words "drow" and "troll" both derive from the same Norse word "troll". Her name only makes sense in the medieval Scottish of the Orkney and Shetland Islands. More likely in the Realms, Ulgarthans pronounce "drow" weirdly. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 19:41:10
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Ahhhh, the Utter East (of which we usually only hear about Ulgarth). One of my favorite 'pet areas' in The Realms. 
First, with some of my musings here over the years, I postulated that the Imasakri (who I now believe may have been spirit-folk, or at least Fey-blooded) did MASSIVE amounts of research over the years on deities of other worlds, before moving ahead with the Godwall. They had access to many worlds, and could study such beings, and I even hypothesize they may have had psuedo-temples to many of these pantheons (including some we've never even heard of), in order to further their studies (I picture their 'school of translocation' being an immense college facility, with multiple buildings, and one ginormous one just dedicated to the study of cultures and their gods). They probably had a little trouble early on, bringing in some folks from elsewhere (I also assume there were MANY such attempts, all with different cultures, and probably not all from Earth, because P&P hints at that, as BadCatMan describes above), when enough of the folk with the same worship practices came through, sometimes a 'god' would follow along. They would want to prevent that, otherwise it could lead to disaster, hence, the Godwall. If you subscribe to my theory about the Dathites (that they were proto-Romans), that could be a very good reason they let a large number of them go ("Oh, hey... so you're Tyche? Nice to me you! Oh, these guys over here? We were just about to let them go... we, errrr... wanted to spread your faith to Toril because we thought you were so cool. The chains? Oh, those were for their own protection... removing them now... no hard feelings, eh?")
You can see how after the first few 'got through' (Tyche, Heimdal {Helm}, Goibniu {Gond}, Oghma, etc), they would have decided they need some type of barrier to prevent it from happening again.
As for the Finnish pantheon - they're are too many of them. I just assume the Finnish pantheon is native to Abeir-Toril (that the Finnish myths actually took place ON Toril, and Earth got them from FR).*
Secondly, I tried to fix Ulgarth, in part, with my one CKC article. I went into how a group of 'lost ships' from the Moonshaes (Both Ffolk and Northmen, passed through a terrible storm, which turned out to be Umberlee's Fist, and they were displaced in both time & space, off the shore of the Utter East (Konigheim has a very 'Norse' flavor, and the others a bit of a Celtic/Moonshae vibe going on, which is completely odd giving the region and their neighbors). In fact, I think somewhere (canon) it actually says Ulgarth was settled by Ffolk and Norsemen of the Moonshaes, which gave me the original idea, so I just used the storm to explain the weirdness of why they'd be colonizing so damn far away.
And if you work out the dates I give in the article, I have an 'Easter egg' hidden therein - it was 1400 DR when that fleet (two fleets, actually) got 'misplaced', which is............ "The Year of Lost Ships". 
Of course, that's before all the spellplague nonsense happened, but that shouldn't really affect the (homebrew) lore. In fact, if anything, 'magical chaos' just helps the story along.
*EDIT:
That a group of Gur must have 'come over' from FR, and became Earth's Finno-Ugric people. If you happen to be Finnish and reading this, sorry, but you're an illegal alien on this planet. 
And being Estonian myself, that can't be construed as 'racist'. LOL |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2017 19:51:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 20:16:14
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I believe you may have meant 'Trow' in place of the second "troll" below.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
For Sinveri Trollkin, there's an odd link: the English words "drow" and "troll" both derive from the same Norse word "troll". Her name only makes sense in the medieval Scottish of the Orkney and Shetland Islands. More likely in the Realms, Ulgarthans pronounce "drow" weirdly.
I believe I created the Treggi Jungle (in the uE) as a home for Trow. In fact, I think on the earliest renditions of my uE map, I had it as the 'Trow Jungle', or some-such (not sure where 'Treggi' came from Nvmd - figured it out: 'Trow' + 'Skeggi' from WH).
I put the Loxo kingdom of Sragadha in the plains just to the west of that (basically, Babar & Co.). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2017 20:19:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 20:23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
That reminds me of another: Murdane, goddess of reason and pragmatism, possibly a deity of Jhaamdath, until she was drowned by Umberlee:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Murdane
This makes me think she was only a demipower (Exarch), and thus only had a single aspect on the Prime Material (in Jhaamdath).
Which further makes me think she may have been an ascended Jhaadathan (the first archpsion?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2017 20:23:49 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2017 : 07:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ahhhh, the Utter East (of which we usually only hear about Ulgarth). One of my favorite 'pet areas' in The Realms.
It is one of the perennial topics of FR forums. I think we started something when we began exploring the place. I've slowly been compiling and integrating the lore for the wiki. I even cited you as the source of the colonisation story.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You can see how after the first few 'got through' (Tyche, Heimdal {Helm}, Goibniu {Gond}, Oghma, etc), they would have decided they need some type of barrier to prevent it from happening again.
Imaskari Artificer: "We're going to build a Wall! And we're going to make the gods build it!" 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And if you work out the dates I give in the article, I have an 'Easter egg' hidden therein - it was 1400 DR when that fleet (two fleets, actually) got 'misplaced', which is............ "The Year of Lost Ships".
It was the Year of Nineteen Swords, 621 DR.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I believe you may have meant 'Trow' in place of the second "troll" below.
Nah, I just skipped a step: troll -> trow -> drow is the real-world shift in pronunciation. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2017 : 12:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Well, Powers & Pantheons does describe how several human cultures came from a planet almost certain to be Earth. The first two are Ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian. The next two I've estimated to be Ancient Greek and Roman, no doubt bringing the Greek gods like Poseidon, Prometheus, Tyche, and Chronos. The last I found to be Celtic/Irish (the dozen-king god is the Dagda), which brings Dunatis. The Finnish are also a possibility, what with Loviatar, Mielikki, and Kiputytto (though Ilmater is more likely to be a coincidence).
We can only confirm the Egyptian and Mesopotamians to have been brought over by the Imaskari, but it's possible they weren't the only ones. That all these other cultures have leftover representatives in the Raurin strongly implies they weren't. (The real reason of course is that these old modules use a random grab-bag of cultural elements and gods, which are then shoehorned into the Realms.)
I agree, these isolated cultures were probably eventually wiped out by the Mulhorandi and probably Untheric Empires, as well as by the dying land of the Raurin Desert, leaving only these mysterious ruins.
The Norse-like elements in the Utter East arrived much later, with Moonshaes Ffolk and Northmen colonisation.
Ulgarth is an odd duck to my mind. It should have an eastern theme, producing the Padhra and caught between Durpar and the Utter East, but it has this swerve to a western Faerûnian culture and gods. But consider how the land was settled by outlaws of Mulhorand in 348 DR. A small band of outlaws do not change a whole culture. But a large number of refugees driven out for cultural or religious differences could. It's hard to say who they might have been however.
For Sinveri Trollkin, there's an odd link: the English words "drow" and "troll" both derive from the same Norse word "troll". Her name only makes sense in the medieval Scottish of the Orkney and Shetland Islands. More likely in the Realms, Ulgarthans pronounce "drow" weirdly.
Agreed on the shoehorning... effectively they took a module written for elsewhere and stuck it in the realms. They did so more effectively with the bloodstone stuff, but given lemons (and also given the fact that though I never played through the modules, I enjoyed the read way back when).
After I wrote up what I had written, I started also thinking about the folks that came in 348 DR
In 348 DR, a group of outlaws, fleeing the justice of the priest-kings of Mulhorand, came to Ulgarth.
Nothing truly says these guys are Mulhorandi, so I started thinking about the other cultures in the area, and the Shaar is populated with Arkaiun. Since the Arkaiun were made from Nar refugees of Shandalaur (so basically like Rashemi/Raumathari) and Illuskans from Ruathym, and they were outlaws bugging Mulhorand, I'd half be it was these Arkaiuns that fled to Ulgarth.
Gonna take the rest of this conversation to the other thread I made.... because I'm so bad about sidetracking these threads. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2017 : 13:51:03
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I like this Phillip. Good connection.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 04:33:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed on the shoehorning... effectively they took a module written for elsewhere and stuck it in the realms. They did so more effectively with the bloodstone stuff, but given lemons (and also given the fact that though I never played through the modules, I enjoyed the read way back when).
People bag out Old Empires and the introduction of the Egyptian and Mesopotamian gods and cultures, but I suspect Scott Bennie was doing his best to integrate Desert of Desolation into the existing Realms and remove its wrinkles. He took the immortal god-kings of Mulhorand and Unther mentioned in the Old Gray Box and linked them to these stray gods of the Raurin – the Egyptian pharaohs and gods are an obvious fit, and Greenwood had already used priestesses of Set in his Realms – and made them ascended humans, not interloper gods. In his story, "Legends speak of a great war in which powerful humans fought against the gods to wrest away their power. The humans won and became god-kings, but the war destroyed their kingdoms. These god-kings, Re and Enlil, led the shattered remnants of their peoples into Mulhorand and Unther." Which is subtly different from the story of the Imaskari importing these peoples from Earth and the arrival of their gods that came later. TBH, I think I prefer Bennie's version. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 05:22:28
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| Since I started to read Old Empires, I always wondered why the introductory story was different. So, the stuff of the Imaskari bringing peoples from other worlds was a retcon, then? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 07:40:30
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It seems so. While Imaskar was mentioned briefly in some books as just an ancient, fallen empire, with some vague link to Mulhorand and Unther, it was a long time before this was actually detailed and nothing seems to have contradicted the Old Empires account.
In fact, following the threads... Pirates of the Fallen Stars (1992) introduced an artifact, the Beacon of Light, associated with Mulhorand, but no history attached. Volo's Guide to All Things Magical by Ed Greenwood and Eric L Boyd (1996) expanded on the Beacon of Light, telling that "Ptah led the avatar of Re and his descendants to Realmspace aboard the Matet (the great boat of the sun), he steered them through the dark depths of space by the light of a golden cube. After disembarking, Re kept the magical beacon in order to summon Ptah if his family ever needed Ptah's services again." That's where the Egyptian gods were first introduced, or in light of Desert of Desolation, re-introduced, to the Realms, partially retconning Old Empires. However, it doesn't say anything about where the Mulan came from or why the gods came.
Then Eric L Boyd's Powers & Pantheons (1997) expanded on this, the Imaskari, the kidnapping of the slaves from Earth, the arrival of the Egyptian and Mesopotamian gods. This is where the Old Empires account is fully retconned. It even retcons the Galley of the Gods, an artifact-level ocean-going ship in Old Empires, to a spelljamming vessel.
Powers & Pantheons was published in September 1997, Stargate SG-1 first aired on 27th July 1997. Actually, the two-month gap might be too short to claim inspiration, but the Stargate movie came out in 1994, which is more than enough time.
I suspect they needed to develop the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons as full gods, to fill/justify the second gods book after Faiths & Avatars. I might be overselling this theory, however; Old Empires certainly isn't shy about treating its ascended god-kings as full-fledged gods, so it could all have been based on a misunderstanding or misreading of it. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
Edited by - BadCatMan on 27 Oct 2017 10:16:36 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 10:06:20
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The Imaskari and the bringing of ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians to the Realms was the brainchild of Eric Boyd who put together all of the sources BadCatMan notes above. I'm sure it started with the Beacon of Light and then snowballed from there - as Eric's projects often do.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 11:58:38
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed on the shoehorning... effectively they took a module written for elsewhere and stuck it in the realms. They did so more effectively with the bloodstone stuff, but given lemons (and also given the fact that though I never played through the modules, I enjoyed the read way back when).
People bag out Old Empires and the introduction of the Egyptian and Mesopotamian gods and cultures, but I suspect Scott Bennie was doing his best to integrate Desert of Desolation into the existing Realms and remove its wrinkles. He took the immortal god-kings of Mulhorand and Unther mentioned in the Old Gray Box and linked them to these stray gods of the Raurin – the Egyptian pharaohs and gods are an obvious fit, and Greenwood had already used priestesses of Set in his Realms – and made them ascended humans, not interloper gods. In his story, "Legends speak of a great war in which powerful humans fought against the gods to wrest away their power. The humans won and became god-kings, but the war destroyed their kingdoms. These god-kings, Re and Enlil, led the shattered remnants of their peoples into Mulhorand and Unther." Which is subtly different from the story of the Imaskari importing these peoples from Earth and the arrival of their gods that came later. TBH, I think I prefer Bennie's version.
Oh, I love Old Empires. I understand when people say that they felt Maztica was too derivative, but Old Empires didn't have that particular feel to me. Granted, that may be because at that time, my Egyptian and Babylonian knowledge was limited to what I'd seen on TV shows and cartoons...
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 12:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
It seems so. While Imaskar was mentioned briefly in some books as just an ancient, fallen empire, with some vague link to Mulhorand and Unther, it was a long time before this was actually detailed and nothing seems to have contradicted the Old Empires account.
In fact, following the threads... Pirates of the Fallen Stars (1992) introduced an artifact, the Beacon of Light, associated with Mulhorand, but no history attached. Volo's Guide to All Things Magical by Ed Greenwood and Eric L Boyd (1996) expanded on the Beacon of Light, telling that "Ptah led the avatar of Re and his descendants to Realmspace aboard the Matet (the great boat of the sun), he steered them through the dark depths of space by the light of a golden cube. After disembarking, Re kept the magical beacon in order to summon Ptah if his family ever needed Ptah's services again." That's where the Egyptian gods were first introduced, or in light of Desert of Desolation, re-introduced, to the Realms, partially retconning Old Empires. However, it doesn't say anything about where the Mulan came from or why the gods came.
Then Eric L Boyd's Powers & Pantheons (1997) expanded on this, the Imaskari, the kidnapping of the slaves from Earth, the arrival of the Egyptian and Mesopotamian gods. This is where the Old Empires account is fully retconned. It even retcons the Galley of the Gods, an artifact-level ocean-going ship in Old Empires, to a spelljamming vessel.
Powers & Pantheons was published in September 1997, Stargate SG-1 first aired on 27th July 1997. Actually, the two-month gap might be too short to claim inspiration, but the Stargate movie came out in 1994, which is more than enough time.
I suspect they needed to develop the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons as full gods, to fill/justify the second gods book after Faiths & Avatars. I might be overselling this theory, however; Old Empires certainly isn't shy about treating its ascended god-kings as full-fledged gods, so it could all have been based on a misunderstanding or misreading of it.
Hmmmmmm, Honestly I had never thought much about the beacon of light..... but as I think on Mulhorand's "shifting" of its people and the happenings with Abeir.... this could be useful from a plot perspective.... thank you BadCatMan.
I'd been talking about some great ritual of dream magic that "transfers" the moon to Abeir (which may be just transferring the ILLUSION of the moon to Abeir, and the people who live under said illusion) being performed as cooperative dream magic by the spellcasters that transfer over. Then later I was going to have them perform a form of cooperative dream magic which makes them all see their own personal deity interacting with the sun in the way that their stories say while on Abeir (i.e. gods pulling the sun via chariot... slowing it down with vines to make the day last longer, etc...). It would be interesting if the beacon of light was used as part of this ritual.... drawing the attention of Ptah AND Anubis... guardian of dead gods. Also, if the "ship of the gods" island also transferred to Abeir.... possibilities story wise.
If the beacon of light were "plugged into" some portion of an active volcano which is special to Geb (i.e. the ship of the gods).... and just to note that Geb is not a manifestation known in the Mulhorandi pantheon and therefore might be considered a Primordial.... maybe this opens a "pathway" of sorts to the place where the actual "souls" of dead gods lay.... Maybe the ship of the gods and this beacon of light is one area of the realms that the gods themselves are standing guard over while in Abeir.... and maybe Leira is helping hide it from the Primordials... It effectively becomes a beachhead, possibly with mortals being drawn there to take on the spirit of a god, as a "weakened avatar", to then go out into the world and try to rebirth themselves with faith energy provided by the mortals that turn to their worship? In addition to the light and its ties to Ra and the sun... maybe this is also why Lathander goes over, because as a deity of rebirth, he is obligated to help rebirth these dead deities (possibly supplying them with some of his own divine essence in the process.... sacrificing of himself to "reseed" a new generation of gods). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Oct 2017 12:37:12 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 13:41:37
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HMMMMMMM.... beacon of light.... Spellplague in 1385.... Sundering starting in 1485 with the Great Rain and proceeded over the next 4 or so years somewhat "gently"
Suggested means of Destruction of the "Beacon of Light"
The Beacon of Light must be wrapped in the cloak of Shar.
The Beacon must be enveloped in a pack of skriaxits led by a great skriax for one full century.
The Beacon will shatter if the avatars of Horus-Re and Anhur ever come to blows.
While I don't see the last happening...... A great skriax MIGHT be termed as a Primordial of Hot Desert-like Winds.....or even a "deity" like Talos.... and
Not sure where to take this, but the beacon of light shattering AND the power of Ptah himself... if using the above... could be he aided the Sundering?
Hmmm, and also in VGtatM, there's the artifact called "The Blood of Lathander" and it says
Curse. If handled or moved by someone not of the Morninglord#146;s faith, the Blood of Lathander pulses in extremely bright, irregular flashes (brighter than a continual light spell) designed to make its carrier release it or to draw attention to its presence. If it is carried about by such a being, the bearer#146;s dreams are haunted by images of slowly dripping blood ---- #151;drops of blood that turn to fire and blaze away before they strike the ground. If a nonworshiper of Lathander continues to carry it for more than three days, it begins blazing with a bright light and heating up like metal affected by a heat metal spell; however, once it reaches searing heat in the third round, it stays that hot until discarded by the unauthorized bearer, whereupon it returns to ambient temperature in three rounds.
So, what if a follower of as aspect of Talos (say Bhaelros, or Khass the rain god in the Shaar).... or even a converted "good" follower of Talos.... or even say a "weakened avatar" of Tyr.... who is defended by a "weakened avatar of Helm/Heimdahl"?.... who is immune to fire somehow (by racial means or some other method) brings the beacon of light AND the blood of Lathander to the ship of the gods on Abeir. I say that because the means of destruction of the blood of Lathander is
If the amber is broken, the divine blood blazes away into nothingness instantly. It cannot be captured by a wizard or alchemist.
** The amber must be crushed in the jaws of the eldest surviving dracolich of the Realms.
** The amber must be placed within a dead magic area for 99 years, whereupon it disintegrates.
** The amber must be crushed beneath the boot of an avatar of Talos or in the fist of the reigning god of the dead.
The ship of the gods area itself might be magic dead in the form of the weave not being there, but more ancient "divine" magics are. Maybe when it disintegrates, the blood rejuvenates Mystra. I say this because, what we know of the blood of Lathander is
Blood of Lathander
This unique minor artifact of Lathander consists of four drops of an
avatar of the gods blood imprisoned in an oval, fist-sized piece of
amber.
Centuries ago Mystra selected the archmage Sammaster as one of her Chosen. Overwhelmed by the power invested in him, he developed delusions of godhood and set himself up as a seer. His teachings that "dead dragons shall rule the world entire" started the Cult of the Dragon. Sammaster and the cultists then set out to fulfill this prophecy by creating dracoliches and serving them by bringing them treasure.
The Harpers tracked down the corrupted archmage and destroyed many of his followers. Unable to defeat one of Mystra's Chosen, Harper priests of the Morninglord called upon their god. An avatar of Lathander appeared and challenged Mystra#146;'s fallen Chosen to battle, outraged by the thought of the unchanging eternity of tyranny the archmage promised. The Morninglord's avatar destroyed Sammaster, but not before the wizard delivered a severe wound. (Sammaster was capable of attacking the deity successfully due to his investiture with some of Mystra's divine essence.)
Which all could come back to.... did Savras advise Mystra to turn Sammaster into a Chosen? Did he know something of the coming Spellplague (he obviously did since he made Halruaa aware)?
So, I'm picturing this on Abeir.... a blind mortal holding the weakened avatar of Tyr holding the Blood of Lathander in his one remaining hand. He's leaning on a mortal holding the weakened avatar of Savras who is controlling dozens of beholder eyeballs (or maybe just magical eyes flitting about). He has keyed these eyes to a mortal holding the weakened avatar of Helm/Heimdahl. Meanwhile a mortal holding the weakened avatar of Leira is working magic to keep them hidden. Meanwhile, a mortal holding a weakened avatar of Lathander is holding the beacon of light.... shining the light of truth that's leading them to the ship of the gods.
When they arrive at the Ship of the Gods, they find a mortal who is a weakened avatar of Horus-Re (actually the Pharaoh Horustep III) and a weakened avatar of Ningal (actually the NPC Ningal from the 3e FR campaign setting) who is a goddess of dreams AND mortal from Ulgarth who is a weakened avatar of Untamo (Finnish dream god) AND a mortal from Turmish who is a weakened avatar of Auppenser. The four drops of Lathander's blood are broken apart, and the follower of Tyr keeps one, and one is given to "Ningal", "Untamo", and "Auppenser". Thus begins the dream casting ritual to awaken the sun as the dream casting is begun. The 4 individuals holding the blood of Lathander droplets all drop into a sleep that if filled with visions caused by the "curse" of this item of drops of blood that turn to fire and blaze away before they strike the ground. Meanwhile, the 4 drops of blood all begin blazing away creating the equivalent light of a sun because they're being held by followers who don't follow a sun god.
Then "Lathander" and "Horus-Re", in the light of this artificial sun, both plug in the beacon of light, summoning Ptah and Anubis, and the pathway for dead gods is opened.
Then Talos, who is the only deity who (for some reason) is the only primordial entity able to detect this action at the Ship of the Gods, summons a great storm and begins to try and assault it. For the next century, the Ship of the Gods is under assault. Maybe even as a part of all this, Talos is himself "sundered" back into various entities such as Bhaelros, Khass, Kozah, and Talos... and maybe even other sky gods like Enlil, Anu, etc...
Over time, mortals "weather the storm" to come to the island that is the "ship of the gods", and they accept a god's essence to bring back into the world. Some of them die. Some live.
Is it just me, or is this actually starting to fall together into a good story? I have to be missing something. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Oct 2017 14:16:43 |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 19:09:03
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Thanks a lot guys, now I have to go and read this one again!
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2017 : 03:23:47
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| Kronus is really someone trying to annoy the titan of the same name. The Olympian Pantheon think this unknown deity is either very brave or very stupid. |
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Tell me about Chronos
