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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 03:54:54
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... here at Candlekeep.
This came up elsewhere, but I think the quoted post and my reply, warrant an entirely new scroll for this discussion. Thus:-
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ultimately, the views of the individual scribe on a particularly explosive topic like 4e, isn't something we can control with any real degree of certainty.
If we're talking in terms of certainty, you can be certain that whenever the subject is brought up, you're always going to see the same one or two scribes jump at the chance to post a hate-filled screed blasting the 4E Realms, which does this website no favors, turns fans of the Realms away and further encourages WotC staffers to tread here with caution, if they choose to at all.
Unfortunately, this is a state of affairs for most message boards.
What I dislike about this perceived notion that Candlekeep has a kind of anti-4e bias, is the lack of acknowledgement from many considerate scribes about just what we, as Moderators, can and cannot do in terms of trying to curb such difficult behaviour from those antagonists more inclined to agitate, than discuss the 4e Realms.
Some of the respect for this must, as always, fall back onto the shoulders of all scribes who use this, or any site, really. And I would ask, again, that any scribe with a [valid] claim about the anti-4e commentary that pops up here, try to appreciate that we simply cannot control all of what or how antagonistic scribes discuss here to any specific degree. We can only act within the terms of what's established by the site's Code of Conduct. The extent of our powers means we can suspend, and, when necessary, even cancel a difficult scribe's profile, but we can't prevent them from starting a new account and/or posting through a friend's, if that is their wish.
I really do find this argument rather tiresome. It does seem like some of of those who [rightly] feel disgruntled by the perceived anti-4e bias at Candlekeep, also tend to overlook the hard work Wooly and I, and Alaundo, too, perform in order to prevent such antagonisms from ever becoming too problematic. I find this lack of acknowledgement disappointing, because it almost translates into a situation whereupon we are being labelled as complacent in the perpetuation of this bias. And that's simply not the case. I don't really know how many more times I can say that.
Is there some core belief beyond these halls and among members that says myself, Wooly, or Alaundo are anti-4e? For myself, I can't ever recall saying that I have been -- at any time in past -- either here at Candlekeep, or elsewhere beyond this site.
So, I guess, I'm just looking for some clarification on all of this. Because it really feels like I'm being lumped together with those scribes who wish to use their time here as a platform for lamenting over the hated state of the 4e Realms.
quote:
Since this sort of behavior is allowed at Candlekeep, is it too much to ask that when Candlekeep 2.0 hits the web that an Ignore feature be included?
We've said, repeatedly, that an 'Ignore' function will be among the new features of Candlekeep 2, so...
Mod Edit: Removed scroll adhesive.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Aug 2013 11:08:13
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 04:19:12
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I have been hanging out here since 2005 and I can tell you it is not the moderators. You guys do a great job, keep it up. This is my unwind place after work and kids are in bed for the night, where I can check out of the real world for a few minutes each day. I have been lurking more than posting since 4e, due to some of what I will call nonsense in how many threads turn out, but again, it is not the moderators.
My 2 coppers worth  |
Edited by - scererar on 15 Jul 2013 04:25:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 04:45:18
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I will also note that while I personally do have a negative opinion of the 4E Realms, I have also gone out of my way to defend the rights of people to speak positively about the 4E Realms. I have repeatedly asked for discussions to remain civil, and I have repeatedly spoken against the random 4E-bashing that some people have been all too willing to engage in. I've also defended WotC more than once, and have frequently asked people not to make accusations unless they have proof.
My opinion is my own. It does not factor into how I moderate.
What I find endlessly frustrating is that no matter what I do to make sure that fans of all editions can speak freely, I have been repeatedly attacked for having my own opinion. It sometimes feels as if nothing I do matters to my detractors, because my opinion is not theirs. I have had many insults directed at me personally and at my moderation, simply because I disagree with someone on the 4E Realms.
I have told people that I personally agreed with to stop the pointless bashing and to let others have their say -- and this does not get acknowledged by a small and vocal few, because I don't agree with them. It's not enough to try to keep the place edition-neutral, I have to be pro-4E or say nothing at all; to do anything else is to invite attack.
This site has been accused of an anti-4E bias. But what about the bias some people feel against people who prefer earlier editions? The vitriol that has been spewed about in the edition wars is far from one-sided, yet the accusations of bias remain. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Jul 2013 04:57:48 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 06:54:13
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I will say that I was one of those people who had an issue with Wooly expressing his own opinion on the 4E "issue". At first, to me, it seemed to color his judgments and I believed at the time that a moderator shouldn't toss out their opinion on an issue that highly charged. Over time though I have seen that Wooly can separate his position and his opinion and I have changed my own opinion on that issue. It is not the moderators that make this place appear to be anti 4E.
I think, if anything, it truly does feel like whenever 4E is brought up at least one or two people (not necessarily always the same people) will chime in with some supremely negative statement about it. Now, obviously that doesn't always happen, but it can feel that way sometimes. And then you get a thread like the one that spawned this that is literally asking for that type of response, and of course it was answered. At least one response is filled to the brim with assumptions and hyperbole and serves no constructive purpose that I can tell (to be clear, there's nothing inherently wrong with that). The problem is even if I, as someone who has no real problems with 4E were inclined to respond in kind, why would I ever want to attack pre 4E with that kind of blind hatred?
So, while the vitriol can definitely go both ways, as I have unfortunately decided to give into emotions and prove a time or two, the pro 4E vitriol, at least to me, appears to be aimed at the idea of complete non-acceptance of 4E and not so much at the idea that pre 4E is bad. This leads to the pro 4E side appearing to attack individual people vs the anti-4E crowd attacking the entire system, and by extension, they are perceived to be attacking anyone who likes the new system. I know in my personal experience in the times I lowered myself to attacking someone else it was over the idea of accepting the 4E Realms as part of the whole and had nothing to do with attacking pre 4E Realms.
In my opinion, this is part of where the view that this site is anti 4E comes from. The anti 4E side appears to have a more unified overall message ("we hate 4E and everything it has ever touched, likely including everyone who had any input whatsoever into it and we aren't afraid to call them out by name for ruining "our' setting") whereas the other side is basically (in most cases) saying something far less sensational ("can't we all just get along", though sometimes it is put more like "If you can't accept what I like, then the hell with you"). I guess I just see it as the anti 4E crowd has an easier target and appears to have far less trouble being vocal about it. I know that pro 4E folks can get every bit as dirty, I am just saying why I believe the perception is so one sided. I could be wrong though. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 09:39:18
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| Sage, please see my PM. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 14:14:42
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Personally that is not an impression that I get from this site. Yes, there those that have preferences that are against 4e, and yet, as a scroll that I once posted indicates, there are plenty of individuals that have issues with three and three point five editions as well. If I were relatively new to the site I might come to the same conclusion. As moderators I find that the three of you have done an excellent job trying to maintain civility within a discussion, ensure that the site can be as much an enjoyable place for miners as well as adults, and be generally helpful to the users. Given what the Sage has posted though, I feel that while having an ignore function might be useful, the truth of the matter is that any forum for discussion has the potential of eliciting strong reactions. Individuals like to have their positions heard and given a platform to do so, will voice those opinions. Whenever I go to a scroll related to 4e, I expect some of those reactions. I should note, that those responses are hardly exclusive to this site, I can’t go to my local hobby shop without hearing one, and the requisite amount of bashing on the subject. Given this, whenever I deal with such a topic I take such elements as part of the nature of the topic. Indeed, a few friends have stated that they actually find discussions on the topic here far more civil than what can be found elsewhere. At any rate, I fear that given the fact that Candlekeep also hosts discussions with such influential individuals within the larger creation of the Realms, that it is highly probable that it might be held to somewhat unrealistically high expectations on what should and should not appear here.
Now, as for Wooly Rupert, I am fully aware that he doesn’t like fourth edition, and many of his reasons for disliking it. His arguments are logical, and in all the cases where I’ve encountered them, not the least bit rude. I don’t personally feel that moderators against posting their opinions on a matter. If the Sage for instance, really hated orcs, I’d acknowledge it and move, knowing that his opinion wouldn’t color any of my interactions with him. If he stated that he felt something was, or had posted was not appropriate for the site, I’d know that he’d have good grounds for doing so (hope you don’t mind me using you Sage as an example). On the whole, my interactions here have been extremely positive, more so than just about any other site I’ve been to thus far. Believe me when I say that you guys have been extremely helpful in a variety of ways, and as a user of this site I am grateful. Naturally, this is merely my opinion, but I felt it was necessary to provide it given the nature of this scroll, respectfully, Sightless.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 17:21:58
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It must be said that it is a two way street. Over the past 5 years, I've seen as many people flip out over someone else's negative opinion as I have naysayers complaining about 4th in the first place. The argumentative factions of both camps bare equal responsibility for the negativity that hangs over 4th on every D&D related site.
Candlekeep (although it had it's rough patches,) is one of the more amiable sites on the net regarding 4th ed. The moderators here have done an excellent job on keeping things civil and they are entitled to a personal opinion as long as its expressed within the same rules as the rest of us. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 15 Jul 2013 17:22:45 |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 21:18:18
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Let me second Sightless and BlackAce here.
We all - or most of us, at least - have seen that the growth of the other main non-Wizards forums (no point in naming them) has always been spawning tougher and tougher editions bashing, to the point that often the Mods of those forums were compelled to use a stronger arm than I remember being used here. And though I've been posting here only lately, I've been lurking here and elsewhere since the beginning, albeit discontinuously.
I think that one of the reasons for this is that Candlekeep has never been "just a D&D site" - rather, being a FR-focused community, it allowed to put the love for the Realms above the love for the game in itself. This allows for some detachment from the rules, and keeps a low level of edition war threads.
In support to this, for instance, the number of character build threads here has always been lower than lore-focused ones, which is not common elsewhere.
Finally, if it seems that there is a relevant number of players partial to previous editions here, it should be remembered that most users grew up and learned to love the Realms with 1E and 2E, and those are the prevalent ones here. Of course some may embrace new editions, but feeling faithful to the game rules one grew up with is just a comprehensible attitude.
In my mind, only this prevalence of pre-4E fans is the main reason for the unavoidable anti-4E reply to the threads as the one we are talking about.
To summarize, it looks to me that it's just a question of numbers, not of negative attitude. On the contrary, the general attitude here is helpful and open-minded, and I am sure that this site may help even the most prejudiced people to approach 4E, thanks to the focus on lore. I myself am an example of this.
I hope I made my points clear enough, as this is an important topic for me.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 23:26:35
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Are the mods here anti-4e? No (with the exception of Wooly, who is, but doesn't let it color his judgement). Is there a lot of anti-4e sentiment? Yes. The reason is simple: 4e was a radical change from what had come before. Note I didn't say good or bad; I think everyone on all sides on the issue can agree that there were a great deal of changes, most of them not small. Radical changes are almost always polarizing.
It's one reason I don't post in 4e threads anymore. I, personally, think 4e flat-out killed the Realms. I refuse to buy any 4e products, including novels, and unless 5e undoes the changes and gets back to the original Realms, I will refuse to buy any 5e products as well. Since the changes are long since over and done, and no new sourcebooks at least means no additional wounds to cut us. But for me at least, there's no point in reopening those wounds again and again. I also don't post because, as a consequence of my not reading any 4e material, I don't know it well, and I have a problem with people who spout mindless opinions. I refuse to be one of them. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 01:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
It must be said that it is a two way street. Over the past 5 years, I've seen as many people flip out over someone else's negative opinion as I have naysayers complaining about 4th in the first place. The argumentative factions of both camps bare equal responsibility for the negativity that hangs over 4th on every D&D related site.
Candlekeep (although it had it's rough patches,) is one of the more amiable sites on the net regarding 4th ed. The moderators here have done an excellent job on keeping things civil and they are entitled to a personal opinion as long as its expressed within the same rules as the rest of us.
Perfectly said! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 10:31:14
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| It's wrong to say that whole 4e sucks, but there are parts of older edition FR that deserve similar criticism and sometimes they do, I've rarely seen anyone complain about that. Some 4e players think they are special and should be protected from any negative opinion, a piece of bad design should be criticized no matter the edition. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 12:51:13
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I've been a naysayer of 4E, but my main issue with the edition has always been a rules-minded issue. I didn't like the time-jump and all that, but I can live with it, mostly because the realms I enjoy playing in is somewhere between the Time of Troubles and the Return of Shade.
I know that my voice has been, in the past, one that has left others feeling unwelcome and I apologize for that. In fact, it's one of the reasons I switched from posting a lot to lurking a lot, so I can let others talk. No matter what, though, this place has never been one to "take a side" and I'm grateful for that. I find that most that feel these forums have taken a side are people that don't understand why people (and moderators) aren't all on their side. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 16:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Are the mods here anti-4e? No (with the exception of Wooly, who is, but doesn't let it color his judgement). Is there a lot of anti-4e sentiment? Yes. The reason is simple: 4e was a radical change from what had come before. Note I didn't say good or bad; I think everyone on all sides on the issue can agree that there were a great deal of changes, most of them not small. Radical changes are almost always polarizing.
It's one reason I don't post in 4e threads anymore. I, personally, think 4e flat-out killed the Realms. I refuse to buy any 4e products, including novels, and unless 5e undoes the changes and gets back to the original Realms, I will refuse to buy any 5e products as well. Since the changes are long since over and done, and no new sourcebooks at least means no additional wounds to cut us. But for me at least, there's no point in reopening those wounds again and again. I also don't post because, as a consequence of my not reading any 4e material, I don't know it well, and I have a problem with people who spout mindless opinions. I refuse to be one of them.
Like Hoondatha, I have been avoiding scrolls about the 4e Realms for the past few years because I know that it often gets my blood boiling. And I disagree Tyrant's assessment that Wooly's opinions color his judgement. They did at the beginning of 4e, but they colored all of our judgments back then. Since then, he has done a great job of getting off of his soapbox when moderating. I would like to note that the pro-4e camp also drove off some scribes who used to provide great content as well (Rinonalyrna Fathomlin comes to mind). Just like all other RW issues, we must ALL learn to be tolerant of others opinions and beliefs. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 18:10:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
And I disagree Tyrant's assessment that Wooly's opinions color his judgment.
Just to be clear, I meant that I thought that at one point and I no longer believe that. Wooly, and his ability to express an opinion, are okay in my book and I believe he and Sage do a good job here. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 23:50:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
And I disagree Tyrant's assessment that Wooly's opinions color his judgment.
Just to be clear, I meant that I thought that at one point and I no longer believe that. Wooly, and his ability to express an opinion, are okay in my book and I believe he and Sage do a good job here.
Ok. Sorry that I misinterpreted what you said. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 05:18:35
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Aside from the initial reveal of 4E Realms, much of the humdrum has died down. Candlekeep is no more or less anti-4E than any other site out there of similar activity and audience. It's probably as positive a place towards 4E Realms as any open forum, short of some forum-wide mandate or a site that selectively and actively caters to the setting.
Just because 4E Realms exists, does not mean it is automatically exempt from criticism by policy or otherwise. No era of the Realms, (or anything really) is beyond criticism and naysayers, especially on the internet. The 1E/2E/3E Realms were and are criticized and harped on constantly. If you think this is bad, take a gander at any forum discussion that compares Greyhawk vs the Realms or Eberron vs the Realms, on the WotC site, EnWorld, RPG.net or anywhere really. Realms fans can't get a word in compared to the onslaught of naysayers determined to drag every iota of negativity they have ever experienced into the discussion or otherwise echo some fourth party hearsay ad nauseum. That WotC broke the setting even more in order to fix it curried no favors with that particular crowd.
Also consider why criticism persists to the extent it has. Perhaps it highlights the innate characteristics of the 4E Realms. Let's ignore considerations of "quality" for a moment and examine what 4E Realms was engineered to do. It was designed to break from the old and bring in the new. That inherently rubs a lot of people the wrong way. It also creates an unavoidable gap between eras of the setting and a natural breaking point. The ToT was a small scale model of this outcome, the 4E Realms is just a greatly magnified version of the same.
Perhaps more importantly, the divisive selling points used by the foolhardy marketing folks at WotC at the onset of 4E essentially fomented the sentiments necessary for different eras of the setting to compete against each other. All the Realms suffered for it, not only the 4E Realms.
Companies usually deride the products of competitors (if at all), rarely their own products. Doing so usually nets a result similar to what we've seen with 4E and the new Realms, a divided market, and with further mismanagement, left openings for actual competitors to grab some market share.
I think some of the thoughts that sparked this discussion thread noted in the OP are unfounded fears. The drastic change did no favors for the Realms and that reflected on this site, WotC’s own Realms forum, and others. Fans have already turned away (at the coming of 4E), and not just 4E fans mind you. Fans of the 4E Realms do not comprise the totality of Realms fans.
WotC’s tread here has always been light. The authors, designers, and contributors who frequent these boards do so mostly of their own accord. WotC doesn’t tread here, they observe. What do they see? In years past I would give an optimistic answer. I’m afraid the only answer I can come up with given the last several years activities on their part is they see what they want to see. They saw in the normal discussions and arguments of fandom, over the internet nonetheless, portents of a dying setting. They took drastic action and ended up fulfilling their own fears.
Oh, we can argue about the popularity and success of the 4E Realms, but it’s evident it did nothing to alleviate the “vocal minority” of detractors. It may have made it worse. We’ve no guarantee this voice wouldn’t have emerged without the 4E Realms events, but the situation is what it is and temporal and contextual correlation is a bit close to be coincidence. You know what? A vocal fanbase is better than one that goes silent. Fans are rarely if ever quiet. A quiet fanbase means they just don’t care anymore and aren’t there anymore.
WotC can decide to ignore this site and any others like it, but they do so at their own peril. They took a selective sampling on their previous survey of their fans and it got them into a tough bind. They are lucky anyone cares enough about the setting to voice concerns and criticisms. It’s harder to achieve such a following than most realize. The fanbase could just as easily dwindle in silence (move on to other settings and games or continue using and self-developing the old setting) without WotC knowing what the heck happened. Here at least they can take measure of who is paying attention and consider the potential directions they can go. |
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Joebing
Learned Scribe
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 05:37:16
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While I have made a few comments against 4e (The Spellplague, some iconic characters living another 100 years, Returned Abeil, etc), I haven't seen too many moderator problems. I try to keep it all at a minimum, and anxiously await the outcome of The Sundering to see 5e Realms.
That said, I do believe that Candlekeep, being the best Realms site out there, has done a fine job treating all editions of the Realms equally and fairly. While most people (including myself) still play AD&D2 and 3.x, we have learned to adapt things to our home games. I too believe that WotC does realize that the changes with each edition have never been as fought about so much as 4e, and are taking careful steps towards 5e, first by the massive playtest known as D&DNext (and along with it the surveys, which myself and every member of my gaming party have faithfully filled out), then by being involved at outside forums, such as this one. They ask for feedback, and I believe they are listening. The information we have heard from those "In-The-Know" leans towards a return to the world originally envisioned by Ed Greenwood, and the world we all fell in love with, pre Time of Troubles, only 110 years later. We might lose a few iconic characters, but as time goes on, everyone has to die (except LeShay), and new iconic characters will take their place (hopefully better than the attempts made in the Dragonlance world). Plus, we always have the 100 year gap of the Spellplague-era between 3.5 and 4e to set our campaigns in, with minor tweaking (I have already set into motion a plan to AVOID the Spellplague in my home campaign).
Bottom Line: WotC LISTENS to US, the fans of The Realms. They know what we want to see and what we don't. They haven't been totally ostracized here, let's just keep things at the state they are now and they never will be. The mods are doing a great job avoiding most personal feelings without objectivity. All of you are well informed, you have made your personal choices and feelings known, but for the most part, you still help in a factual manner, not allowing your personal feelings to intervene. Great job mods. This is why I return to Candlekeep daily. |
Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.
http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames
First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros |
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Learned Scribe
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 13:36:15
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Matt James said it best:
quote:
...this site is decidedly anti-4e. It's best to decide if you want to pick up some of the content, read it for yourself, and figure out if you like it or not.
Wooly Rupert is a horrible moderator. His bias against any scribe who posts in favor of the the full continuum of the Realms' development is repugnant.
The Sages' "moderation" is nearly as poor, and perhaps more-so, as his moderation is a more pernicious form of full-continuum-of-Realms-development-hate: any scribe who offers any type of pro-4e discussion is met with vast vitriolic back-lash from the "scribes" here, The Sage then, in an attempt to maintain "civility", undermines/denigrates/or bans the scribe who had the audacity to say something nice about the current state of Realms development. In a nut-shell, The Sage is as anti-4e as the worst scribes of Candlekeep, as he can always be relied upon to "arm the mob" against any who would dare speak well of the designers and staff who are in charge of the setting we claim to love.
There is, of course, a very easy solution to the mess that is the moderation at Candlekeep...
Make Jeremy Grenemyer or Diffan a moderator, and require a unanimous decision before banning a scribe. |
Edited by - Learned Scribe on 23 Jul 2013 23:01:48 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 13:40:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Learned Scribe
Matt James said is best:
quote:
...this site is decidedly anti-4e. It's best to decide if you want to pick up some of the content, read it for yourself, and figure out if you like it or not.
Wooly Rupert is a horrible moderator. His bias against any scribe who posts in favor of the the full continuum of the Realms' development is repugnant.
The Sages' "moderation" is nearly as poor, and perhaps more-so, as his moderation is a more pernicious form of full-continuum-of-Realms-development-hate: any scribe who offers any type of pro-4e discussion is met with vast vitriolic back-lash from the "scribes" here, The Sage then, in an attempt to maintain "civility", undermines/denigrates/or bans the scribe who had the audacity to say something nice about the current state of Realms development. In a nut-shell, The Sage is as anti-4e as the worst scribes of Candlekeep, as he can always be relied upon to "arm the mob" against any who would dare speak well of the designers and staff who are in charge of the setting we claim to love.
There is, of course, a very easy solution to the mess that is the moderation at Candlekeep...
Make Jeremy Grenemyer or Diffan a moderator, and require a unanimous decision before banning a scribe.
Let's see... You have 1 post and come on here to complain. Buddy, if I were a moderator here, you'd be banned quicker than you could say "FastJack". |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Learned Scribe
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 13:41:03
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| Classic Ashe Ravenheart... |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 15:15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Let's see... You have 1 post and come on here to complain. Buddy, if I were a moderator here, you'd be banned quicker than you could say "FastJack".
New name, same bs as always. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 23 Jul 2013 15:15:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 15:18:17
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Ah, the Hidden Brace returns!
And he quite nicely proves what I was saying earlier. I have spoken out in defense of WotC more than once, most recently in the thread about Bruce Cordell. I have repeatedly asked for an end to random anti-4E sniping; often, my only contribution to a pro-4E thread is to ask that people don't bash 4E.
There are many pro-4E scribes, most notably Diffan, whom I have not clashed with at all, because even though I don't agree with them, they respect my opinion and the opinion of others.
But of course, that doesn't matter, because I don't share the opinions of "the Learned Scribe". My opinion is not his, so the verifiable facts are not important, and I must be attacked.
Oh, and with the exception of spammers, there is always a unanimous consensus before someone is banned. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Jul 2013 15:27:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 15:22:32
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Here's a related bit of curiosity...
I don't care for the Erevis Cale books, and I have stated that before. Yet I've never been accused of being biased against Mr. Kemp or his fans.
I've more than once said that while I have great respect for Ed as a world-builder, I don't care for his fiction. I've been accused of being an Ed fanboi, but I've never been accused of being biased against him or his fans.
Yet I express a dislike of 4E, and for that I am attacked and accused of bias... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 15:38:55
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Every edition has to withstand complaining people, no edition is perfect, no edition is the ultimate one everyone else has to pledge their votes to. Nonetheless among all the editions out there, 4e is the one which deserves the most finger pointing in a negative way. It was an attempt to change things from the foundation but this change was badly executed in terms that the fanbase got divided in those who loved the change and those who think it ruined the setting they learned to love over the years. WotC failed to bring the ones disgruntled with the change back into the fold, hence there is such a strong anti-4e sentiment and hopes that 5e will remedy some of the issues. It has nothing to do with Wooly or Sage driving an "anti-4e agenda". They are people like everyone else and have a right to voice their own opinion. They may be ones of moderating powers but that does not make them always right and you are free to disagree with them, if you don´t break the rules then you have nothing to fear.
Attacking them for their dislike of 4e paints you in a light of a pro-4e agenda yourself and one may claim that you are biased aswell, i do not think you would like that unless you state yourself that you are biased.
I dislike 4e, i like 3e the most, yet i do not swing around with the mighty "down with every edition that is not 3e" hammer or attack people over liking another edition. I voice my opinions, people are free to disagree and things move on but claiming Candlekeep is a haven for anti-4e sentiment due to moderators disliking the edition is driving it too far and you paint every who is not in favor of 4e in a light that screams "biased" disregarding if they may have their own reasons for disliking it or not.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 15:47:37
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Hmmmmm... what employee of WotC suddenly has too much time on his hands... 
I guess Candlekeep is getting blamed for 'nuking' 4e in someone's eyes. The sad part is, we are a teeny, tiny community - not even a speck of dust on the thing that is the internet. If 4e had been the 'godsend' some folks seem to think it was, nothing any of US thought would have mattered at all.
On the bright side, this new attack gives me even more hope for 5e. 
I would have to agree that this site has been (in the past) "decidedly anti-4e", but now that 5e is on its way to fix things most of us are singing a different tune. However, blaming us for hating 4e is like blaming soda-drinkers for not liking 'New Coke'. You know why Heroes went from being the hottest thing on TV to being cancelled in just one season? Because season 2 SUCKED; I am sure the writers of that show blame the fans as well (I guess we are all a bunch of 'tasteless morons' who don't really 'get' the Emperor's new clothes).
And it appears the only people who are still trying to keep the 'edition wars' alive are those that 'dost protest too much' in the past. Funny how things change when the shoe is on the other foot. None of us have any idea what 5e will be like, and already the pot is getting stirred. Take some Xanax and chill out. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2013 15:48:42 |
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Learned Scribe
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 15:48:31
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And you have quite nicely proven my point Chris...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, the Hidden Brace returns!
And he quite nicely proves what I was saying earlier. I have spoken out in defense of WotC more than once, most recently in the thread about Bruce Cordell. I have repeatedly asked for an end to random anti-4E sniping; often, my only contribution to a pro-4E thread is to ask that people don't bash 4E.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 16:09:32
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| Idk why you even bother to reply to this guy, since he blatantly is a wannabe troll... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 23:10:57
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| Please do not feed the pests. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 23:14:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess Candlekeep is getting blamed for 'nuking' 4e in someone's eyes. The sad part is, we are a teeny, tiny community - not even a speck of dust on the thing that is the internet.
I believe I posted more objections about 4th edition on the WotC forum then I ever did here. I certainly have issues with design and classes, however also have issues with some aspects of 3rd Edition. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Learned Scribe
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 23:25:07
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"Look, someone with a legitimate position that is different from the majority! Let's all call him a troll!"
Classic Candlekeep... |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 23:34:15
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| No one is forcing you to be here, if you have so many problems with the site. |
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A State of Affairs for discussing the 4e Realms...
