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 How many genocides were committed by Elves in FR?
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carbos
Acolyte

14 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  18:21:59  Show Profile Send carbos a Private Message  Delete Topic
I know about Dark Disaster, Dracorage Mythal, Jhaamdath and The Sundering. Is that complete list or there is more of them?

Edited by - carbos on 09 Jun 2013 18:25:03

Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  19:25:22  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message
I've always found it hypocritical that a) the elves are considered a "goodly" race, and b) humans are pegged as the ones who get corrupted by power and use magic irresponsibly. The elves are single handedly more responsible for causing trouble than orcs, bugbears, beholders, or other creatures that get killed on sight. And those are just the NICE elves. When you factor in the drow and fey'ri, maybe the Northmen have it right with their wariness of elves.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3051 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  19:27:06  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message
^Drow and Fey'ri are no worse than many 'standard elves'. At least they are honest about their intentions...

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2219 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  19:41:19  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message
here we go again.

but most of the time when elves did something it was to their own or to get someone off their back.

Jhaamdath had it coming, just becuase some of them were innocent well you do know what the old saying about guilty by association and that its evil enough when good people do nothing? not to mention taht Jhaamdath likely started it....

the sundering one.... not too sure on that one....

the dark disaster that left that one elven city a lost ghost town. elf against elf

well as for the draco rage mythal, it was merely to topple the empire at the time, and you have to admit the dragon in that short tale had it coming.


and yeah the drow and feyre may be more honest in their intentions, but their crimes are equally heinous.


as for the humans.

Karsus and the weave incident

old imaskar and their incident including and likely not limited too interplanar abductions.

the orcgate wars created by the red wizards of thay

the current state of affairs in that due to the insanity of sass tam

the orc gate issue that happened down in unther and mulohaund

the empire clashings between unther and mulohaund

the I want a trade empire and colonization issues of Waterdeep and Amn over in the Matzaca.

the tugian horse... I think

and this doesnt even cover the ones that are on the tip of my tongue or the ones in kara tur that I'd need to go look up in the grand history of the realms...

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  20:13:42  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message
Elves are good aligned because they're pretty. It's almost always the case in D&D that those who are "pretty" are good, while those that are "ugly" are evil and "monstrous". Use this as a general guideline, and you'll almost never go wrong when it comes to guessing somethings alignment.

Judging elves on their actions alone, they are no more good or evil than humans.


Edited by - Aldrick on 09 Jun 2013 20:24:47
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carbos
Acolyte

14 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  20:41:39  Show Profile Send carbos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragonKarsus and the weave incident

I can't agree that killing one person is morally worse than mass murder.

I also find it fascinating that people always use Karsus folly to criticize Netheril when much worse things were done by Netherese and weren't essentially actions of one man.

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragonJhaamdath had it coming, just becuase some of them were innocent well you do know what the old saying about guilty by association and that its evil enough when good people do nothing?

Are you sure you want to use this argument? Because it can be used to justify nearly any atrocity that ever happened. And to start many more. Oh and by this logic Mystra totally deserved her death at hands of Karsus because she didn't stop phaerimms from wrecking Netheril.

Also I posted this thread here because I hoped I would actually get some information before it inevitably gets derailed.

Edited by - carbos on 09 Jun 2013 20:45:11
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Venger
Learned Scribe

USA
268 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  21:10:17  Show Profile Send Venger a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Elves are good aligned because they're pretty. It's almost always the case in D&D that those who are "pretty" are good, while those that are "ugly" are evil and "monstrous". Use this as a general guideline, and you'll almost never go wrong when it comes to guessing somethings alignment.

Judging elves on their actions alone, they are no more good or evil than humans.
That was one of the interesting things about the backstory of the Birthright setting, in that when the time came for the followers of the good gods to go to war against the followers of the evil gods, the elves were on the side of evil along with the orogs and goblins. They hated humans for their encroachment on their lands and wanted to genocide them. Of course, they just had to ruin that by having the elves switch sides at the last minute, but still, it was nice while it lasted.

"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power."
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4373 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  21:15:27  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon



the dark disaster that left that one elven city a lost ghost town. elf against elf





As to this one nation was killed for the most part.

Associated with the Crown wars clearly many deaths resulted from the forest fire designed to wipe out Orishaar because of their support of Aryvandaar.

This could be considered genocide attempt as well.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe

USA
206 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  04:40:03  Show Profile  Visit Emma Drake's Homepage Send Emma Drake a Private Message
Holocaust and Genocide Studies is what I do for a living, so forgive me if I'm splitting hairs...

Mass murder is not genocide. The terms are being used somewhat interchangeably and they're not the same thing.

OP - Are you looking for examples of elves killing large numbers of people (mass murder) or are you looking for examples of elves deliberately and systematically seeking to destroy racial/cultural groups (which CAN include other groups of elves who may differ in racial subtype/culture) (genocide)? It's not clear.

For example, you point to The Sundering as an example of genocide. In reading what is written about The Sundering in The Grand History of the Realms, it was not a deliberate and systematic attempt to destroy a specific group (or groups) of people. It was a magical ritual meant to bring into existence Evermeet. In the process of that ritual, many people died. That's not genocide.

On the other hand, you also point to the creation of the Dracorage Mythal. Looking at the summary in The Grand History of the Realms (though the entry doesn't explore intent and this could have also been an unintended consequence, I suppose), this would qualify as a genocidal act. It was a deliberate attempt to destroy the dragons. The fact that it causes dragons to not just endanger themselves but also turn against each other and their young is a particularly strong reason to call it genocide.

So could you clarify what you're looking for?

"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."

- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall)

Edited by - Emma Drake on 11 Jun 2013 05:09:49
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1852 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  07:14:04  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I've always found it hypocritical that a) the elves are considered a "goodly" race, and b) humans are pegged as the ones who get corrupted by power and use magic irresponsibly.
Well, obviously. Remember that fun with the druid from High Moors? Also, from whom the Netherese learned before Golden Skins?.. Oh, right...
quote:
The elves are single handedly more responsible for causing trouble than orcs, bugbears, beholders, or other creatures that get killed on sight. And those are just the NICE elves. When you factor in the drow and fey'ri, maybe the Northmen have it right with their wariness of elves.
Fey'ri are crazy, plain and simple. House Dlardrageth were in the first place (just look over the list of "with what they have mated"), the rest from being buried alive for centuries.
The rest mostly hinges on what they think they can afford.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Elves are good aligned because they're pretty. It's almost always the case in D&D that those who are "pretty" are good, while those that are "ugly" are evil and "monstrous". Use this as a general guideline, and you'll almost never go wrong when it comes to guessing somethings alignment.

In 3e it's a part of game mechanics. You know the difference between "Magical Beast" and "Aberration", right? Other than using two different variants of "it can see in the dark"?

Back to the original question - history of Ravens Bluff. Back when the elves suddenly noticed they aren't really in control of the gates anymore and planewalkers didn't see why the sharp-eared variety of local gets to speak for everyone, and, uh... The interesting part is that you may notice that there are shapeshifters, drow, an owlbear... But contrary to what one could expect - it was not exactly Sigil, but hey, still a major "trade port" - barely any planetouched around there now. Strange, isn't it?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  13:19:27  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I've always found it hypocritical that a) the elves are considered a "goodly" race, and b) humans are pegged as the ones who get corrupted by power and use magic irresponsibly. The elves are single handedly more responsible for causing trouble than orcs, bugbears, beholders, or other creatures that get killed on sight. And those are just the NICE elves. When you factor in the drow and fey'ri, maybe the Northmen have it right with their wariness of elves.


Have elves committed acts of genocide? I think the answer to that question is yes, however we cannot stigmatize the entire race based on the actions of a few and especially when most of these incidents took place in the distant past.
Also if we look at humanities past and indeed present behavior in the realms, well lets just say that its nothing to be overly proud off, especially from a moral standpoint.
As for monsters such as orcs, sure some of them since the time of Obould have started to become more civilized but please remember that all earlier wars with orcs were genocidal in nature. They sought to exterminate their enemies to the last man, woman and child and even if they bothered to take prisoners in the first place their treatment of them was less than humane.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  13:32:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

The elves need to learn from necromancers: everything has its uses, even the remains of the smallest insect. Why commit genocide when you can put to use that certain race you so vehemently discriminate? And I have to agree with Emma here. Genocide and mass murder are two different beasts, though you can call them “cousins.”

Emma: I’m not sure if you’ve read The Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy yet, but yes, it was indeed a genocidal act from the part of the elves. The Rage was a pesticide meant to exterminate the giant lizards.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 11 Jun 2013 13:47:26
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  13:47:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Sadly, we only find out about the ones with survivors.

Think of how many 'successful' genocides they may have completed.

It was hinted at somewhere (maybe in Elaine's Evermeet novel) that when the Elves performed the ritual that created Evermeet, it "reached backwards and Forwards in time" (to the Sundering?), and 'changed the world forever'. They basically ripped apart the main continent with their magic, causing unheard of (even during the Spellplague) upheaval.

What that means is, entire races and civilizations may have been obliterated that no-one will never know about, simply because they were 'erased from time'. I think it is a far greater crime to make it so something never existed, then to just wipe it out. Its a crime on a cosmic scale.
quote:
Ed Greenwood from The Annotated Elminster
"Elves ARE monsters."

That pretty-much sums up my opinion of them right there.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jun 2013 13:49:24
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  14:06:13  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis



The Rage was a pesticide meant to exterminate the giant lizards.



And the dragons exterminated the Aeree...

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



What that means is, entire races and civilizations may have been obliterated that no-one will never know about, simply because they were 'erased from time'. I think it is a far greater crime to make it so something never existed, then to just wipe it out. Its a crime on a cosmic scale.




These civilizations could be on Abeir.
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe

USA
206 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  16:07:21  Show Profile  Visit Emma Drake's Homepage Send Emma Drake a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Emma: I’m not sure if you’ve read The Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy yet, but yes, it was indeed a genocidal act from the part of the elves. The Rage was a pesticide meant to exterminate the giant lizards.



I thought that it might be explored in those books. I have not read them quite yet. Our home campaign takes place right before that time and I don't want to "spoil" myself. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Quale


And the dragons exterminated the Aeree...



Whether or not the dragons did horrible things (like exterminating the aearee) doesn't change whether what the elves did to them was genocide or not.

"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."

- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall)
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe

USA
206 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  16:09:12  Show Profile  Visit Emma Drake's Homepage Send Emma Drake a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


It was hinted at somewhere (maybe in Elaine's Evermeet novel) that when the Elves performed the ritual that created Evermeet, it "reached backwards and Forwards in time" (to the Sundering?), and 'changed the world forever'. They basically ripped apart the main continent with their magic, causing unheard of (even during the Spellplague) upheaval.



The "forward and backward in time" is also described in The Grand History of the Realms.

"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."

- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall)
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  17:06:18  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I've always found it hypocritical that a) the elves are considered a "goodly" race, and b) humans are pegged as the ones who get corrupted by power and use magic irresponsibly.
Well, obviously. Remember that fun with the druid from High Moors? Also, from whom the Netherese learned before Golden Skins?.. Oh, right...
quote:
The elves are single handedly more responsible for causing trouble than orcs, bugbears, beholders, or other creatures that get killed on sight. And those are just the NICE elves. When you factor in the drow and fey'ri, maybe the Northmen have it right with their wariness of elves.
Fey'ri are crazy, plain and simple. House Dlardrageth were in the first place (just look over the list of "with what they have mated"), the rest from being buried alive for centuries.
The rest mostly hinges on what they think they can afford.
Not to be trite, but there's nothing "plain and simple" about insanity. Yes, the fey'ri are crazy, but they're crazy in a very specific way. They don't just go around talking to inanimate objects all day. Their mania manifests in wanting to "perfect" themselves over all other living creatures (even/particularly other elves), which they think it's only logical to do through mixing with demonic bloodlines. Fey'ri who have grown up *outside* the collective Daemonfey house don't necessarily share this particular insane idea, but are just as vulnerable to psychopathy as Fey'ri who are totally on board. Being part demon does make for some mental and emotional instability.

And Sarya's plan for the furtherance of the fey'ri race would definitely have got around to genocide eventually. She was already working on breeding out non-fey'ri elven bloodlines.

But that's a digression. Continue with the fascinating subject!

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 11 Jun 2013 17:07:34
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2219 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  23:02:46  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message
and don't forget that the Ilthiri were already corrupted by the time of the DArk Disaster. and the Illthiri ceased to be elves at that point and then became drow.

the crown wars were put at the blame on the feet of arvyandaar.

are elves homicidal maniacs? well yes, but which branches of the family and how many of them were responsible.

are elves genocidal ? well they can be to some degree, the elves that created the dragonrage mythal were not the entire race, just a few that did NOT want to be ruled over by a dragon. the dragons may have or may not have had it coming, and that particular gold dragon in that one tale was not the example of LG like his kind are notably supposed to be either even more so since it never said that the mothers of that dragon's sons were in fact willing, only that elf mage said that they were when he was talking to that elven renegade.

he said she said it said.

long term unforeseen consequences....


the sundering with Evermeet. well okay this could be considered genocide


the elves are a bit more murderous than genocidal imo.

a case of elven stupid, but also noted: the crimes of the humans in the realms are no better.........








































( I really hate these topics)

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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carbos
Acolyte

14 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2013 :  23:07:34  Show Profile Send carbos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Emma DrakeOP - Are you looking for examples of elves killing large numbers of people (mass murder) or are you looking for examples of elves deliberately and systematically seeking to destroy racial/cultural groups (which CAN include other groups of elves who may differ in racial subtype/culture) (genocide)? It's not clear.

Both albeit I'm more interested in genocides.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  00:49:43  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message
quote:
the elves are a bit more murderous than genocidal imo.

a case of elven stupid, but also noted: the crimes of the humans in the realms are no better.


I don't think the intent by anyone is to say that humans are better than Elves. I think it's firmly established that humans are bastards by nature. The issue with Elves is that they're viewed to lean heavily toward chaotic good as a species. A species that has a tendency toward mass murder and genocide does not generally fall into the good aligned category.

Thus, the argument I made previously, that many Elves are considered good aligned simply because they're also deemed pretty. If they were more ugly most people would probably consider them on par with humans at best if not evil at worst. (Because the opposite of pretty = good is ugly = evil.)
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2219 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  06:16:29  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message
and does that mean that all elves as a whole are homicidal and genocidal maniacs? Now come on, they're not all peaceful tree hugging hippies either, but lets face it, only the gnomes would be considered good save they're deceitful.....


thats the impression I get each time one of these threads starts up and what I get from reading markustay's posts on the matter......

( no offense markustay...)

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3051 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  09:42:44  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

and don't forget that the Ilthiri were already corrupted by the time of the DArk Disaster. and the Illthiri ceased to be elves at that point and then became drow.




I find it really hard to believe that the common 'Ilythiiri' (you know, farmers, normal citizens and so on) were corrupted. Sure, many of their wizards, clergy and leaders were (and it showed in what they did and led their people to do), but not common people. Besides the Dark Disaster didn't destroy Ilythiir but Miyeritar, which was a peaceful, acceptive Sehanine/Eilistraee worshiping kingdom dedicated to the development of arts, culture...

Also the Ilythiir were dark elves, not drow. They became so when Corellon fueled the magic for a curse that afflicted a whole race (even the innocents, the children and the ones not yet born...) just because he was mad that they picked his wife over him (I see no reason other than this for why the sun elven leaders were punished, while ALL the dark elves were indiscriminately cursed).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jun 2013 09:46:53
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carbos
Acolyte

14 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  10:23:46  Show Profile Send carbos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by IrennanAlso the Ilythiir were dark elves, not drow. They became so when Corellon fueled the magic for a curse that afflicted a whole race (even the innocents, the children and the ones not yet born...) just because he was mad that they picked his wife over him (I see no reason other than this for why the sun elven leaders were punished, while ALL the dark elves were indiscriminately cursed).


Morality of FR deities is whole new can of worms.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3051 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  10:36:09  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by carbos

quote:
Originally posted by IrennanAlso the Ilythiir were dark elves, not drow. They became so when Corellon fueled the magic for a curse that afflicted a whole race (even the innocents, the children and the ones not yet born...) just because he was mad that they picked his wife over him (I see no reason other than this for why the sun elven leaders were punished, while ALL the dark elves were indiscriminately cursed).


Morality of FR deities is whole new can of worms.



True, it's OT; my apologies about it. My point is that the Dark Disaster was not at all a defense from 'evil' drow.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jun 2013 10:36:46
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  11:52:25  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message
Plain and simple, nobody, neither Elves nor Humans or dwarves,halflings, gnomes or what ever race there may be (except those incapable of independant thought and driven by primal instincts) are free of blame and they all have skeletons in their closet (no pun intended towards Necromancers).

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.

Edited by - Lord Bane on 12 Jun 2013 11:56:20
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1114 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  12:00:56  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message
Corellon was always a vengeful deity, punishing before thinking. Very out of character for a supposedly Chaotic Good god.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

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