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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I likewise follow that timeline. Sounds like a perfect double fake; eliminate all your own participants to make yourself look like the victim and gain popular support, then secretly manipulate events so a loser (red wizards) hires an assassin to take out the winner thus nullifying the result of the games and invalidating that method of succession.

Then when the king dies everyone thinks the banites should be in charge.

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Originally posted by Demzer

There is not much in canon to base the following on but connecting the sparse bits and pieces related to Mourktar I offer these speculations.

Bane's clergy in Mourktar around 1E and 2E amounts to almost 1/5 of the total population of the city, and that's just the clergy. King Theris and his most trusted advisors were staunch followes of Assuran, supported by a "strong" military, yet as soon as Theris disappeared, the faith in Assuran quickly declined and left space for the Banites.
The overall history of Threskel and the fact that King Theris was the last heir of the line of war leaders that won Mourktar its independence lead me to believe that the region had always strongly autarchic and independentists vibes, with indipendence from both Unther and Chessenta (at least the Chessenta united under Tchazzar) always fought for and a perpetual state of war readiness and a "siege syndrome" that fueled the veneration for war leaders and tyrants. This was obviously fertile soil for Banite worship, but the ancient ties of the royal family with the worship of Assuran (and the old dogma of supporting the Tyrant and not being the Tyrant of the Banites of old) kept the Banites in check and as a very strong but ancillary faith to the central power of Assuran, directly bound with the royal line of war leaders.

After the ToT, after the death of King Theris (last of the line of war leaders) and after all the upheaval inside the church of Bane (or "Bane"), the situation changed and Telthaug resolutely established the already predominant faith of Bane as the de-facto government of Mourktar.

Now, what has all this to do with the Dread Imperceptor's field commander?
As you noted, the Banites had no champion in the Games for the succession for King Theris, I think this was not because they were actively shut out by the King and his advisors (seems too antagonistic of an act to do to the largest faith in your city, unless you are fishing for civil war) and we know there were other champions directly related to other faiths (an Osirian paladin and a champion of Gilgeam among the favourites, the latter surely more despised by independent Mourktar than any champion born in Threskel could ever be, even if of the "wrong" faith).
The explanation I found dives into a bit of a paradox and is based on the rules of the tournament as reported in Old Empires (page 67): It is open to both human and half-elven men and women; women are forbidden to compete in boxing and wrestling and thus labor under a handicap.
These rules imply that women have no chance of winning (since without a score in 2 of the competition is practically impossible for them to get one of the two top scores) and that everyone that's not a human or an half-elf is banned. Now the paradox I was talking about, despite the evil and brutality of Bane's dogma I cant remember if it actually states anywhere that the Tyrant has to be human, thus the Banite church could be more egalitarian than most since it doesn't matter what race or ancestry you had, but if you were the strongest then you were the rightful Tyrant.
This long and convoluted way is to say that in my view the Church of Bane could not take part in the Games because their champion was not eligible and this opens open quite a few possibilities, going from basic to wacky:
- a female human or half-elf every bit as competent as the war heroes of the region (but this may sound like a rip-off of Scyllua Darkhope);
- an elf, half-orc or dwarven champion of dubious ancestry, taken in as an orphan by the Banites and developed into an utterly loyal weapon of conquest;
- a duergar or troll (or an half-) or half-drow from the Riders to the Sky Mountains personally raised by the Dread Imperceptor or bought as a slave after his/her raiding party was destroyed by the Banites patrols and later indoctrinated.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug's age

How old are scribes imagining Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug?

He was the high priest of the Black Lord's Cloak before the Time of Troubles, which means that in 1357-1358 DR, Imperceptor Kabarrath had amassed the personal power and learning of a 12th+ level priest, as well as the political influence, support and network of favours within the church of Bane to become the master of the largest, most powerful temple to the Black Lord in Faerun.

Of course, Imperceptor Kabarrath might have been the master of the Black Lord's Cloak for decades before claiming the title of Dread Imperceptor.

At minimum, I'd expect Kabarrath to be in his forties when he became the high priest of the Black Lord's Cloak. This means that at the absolute youngest, he could be 57-60 years old in 1373 DR. To me, that feels a little too young, but it's within the realm of possibility.

To take a more likely guess, if Kabarrath was in his mid-fifties when he became the master of the temple and he had held that position for a decade or two before the Time of Troubles, he'd be more than eighty in 1373 DR. I like that age, I think.

Any thoughts?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Depends on what race he actually is. You are assuming human. He could be several hundred years old for all we know.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug's age

How old are scribes imagining Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug?

He was the high priest of the Black Lord's Cloak before the Time of Troubles, which means that in 1357-1358 DR, Imperceptor Kabarrath had amassed the personal power and learning of a 12th+ level priest, as well as the political influence, support and network of favours within the church of Bane to become the master of the largest, most powerful temple to the Black Lord in Faerun.

Of course, Imperceptor Kabarrath might have been the master of the Black Lord's Cloak for decades before claiming the title of Dread Imperceptor.

At minimum, I'd expect Kabarrath to be in his forties when he became the high priest of the Black Lord's Cloak. This means that at the absolute youngest, he could be 57-60 years old in 1373 DR. To me, that feels a little too young, but it's within the realm of possibility.

To take a more likely guess, if Kabarrath was in his mid-fifties when he became the master of the temple and he had held that position for a decade or two before the Time of Troubles, he'd be more than eighty in 1373 DR. I like that age, I think.

Any thoughts?

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Depends on what race he actually is. You are assuming human. He could be several hundred years old for all we know.

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I'm assuming human because Faiths & Avatars p. 20 states, for non-human clergy, priests & followers, that if non-human clergy are allowed, it would be specifically mentioned in the individual deity write-ups. Bane contains no such mentions.

The text then further suggests that the player and GM communicate clearly about their needs and desires, how to make both persons happy without introducing silly characters, plot elements or SpecialSnowflakeRainbowUnicorns of Fashionable Faith into the Realms. Which, if everyone affected is cool with, is just fine.

But it leads pretty firmly to the interpretation that a priest of a human deity is human, unless otherwise specified. And the more politically influential a priest is, the better the odds on him being ethnically, culturally and racially acceptable to the majority of the devout.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

FRC1 Ruins of Adventure

The temple is currently under the sway of Mace, a half-orc who is also a 4th level cleric of Bane. He has a substantial following of orcs who consider him to be divinely guided and who obey him slavishly.

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Originally posted by Icelander

For a real-world analogy, look at the Roman Catholic church.

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Originally posted by Demzer

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Originally posted by Icelander

For a real-world analogy, look at the Roman Catholic church.

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Assuming real world religions as analogies for the Realms is a recipe for disaster, in this case because the Pope gets elected (and there are countless ways in which this election can and has been manipulated) while we have no clue what's the process of selection for most of the churches of the Realms.
In the case of the Banite church, the titular head of the church (their "Pope") was directly indicated by Bane himself and we don't know what ways it took to ascend the various ranks.
An election of any kind seems completely out of the style of Banite practices so I would avoid any analogy with elective offices.

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Originally posted by Icelander

I expect that to be the practical reality for many faiths in the Realms, regardless of what the process is called.

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Originally posted by Icelander

From what I could tell from the power struggles in Zhentil Keep and Mulmaster between 1300-1372 DR, the church politics of the Black Lord's Altar and the wider church of Bane were actually very analogous to High Medieval to Renaissance church politics.

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Originally posted by Demzer

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Originally posted by Icelander

I expect that to be the practical reality for many faiths in the Realms, regardless of what the process is called.

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Why would that be? All Churches of the Realms were explicitly designed to be different from real world churches, so why do you assume they should follow the same (or similar) routes?
This is why I'm warning you about making analogies, it may work for your games but it's a way of seeing the churches of the Realms which is biased at the start by you implying any connection with the real world while we know that the creator of the Realms designed the faiths to be different (beside the simple fact of the proved existence and power of the various gods in a fantasy setting, which in itself shapes the world in a completely different way).

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Originally posted by Demzer

Care to quote or point me to any relevant material?

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Originally posted by Demzer

In the Realms we have examples of deities directly appointing people or duels, conflicts and general backstabbing as promotions into higher positions. There have been a couple of examples of lenght of service or seniority that pretty much disregarded actual divine power wielded by the individuals (meaning clerical or analogous levels, judged by access to more powerful spells and like abilities).

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Originally posted by Demzer

Even a rigged oligarchic election is a moment in which several notables/high ranking elements of the church/organization congregate and collegially decide who gets to rule/lead. To my knowledge there is nothing even remotely similar to that ever reported for any faith of Faerun (although I expect some of the more goodly faith to have something like that), and I'm pretty sure it's not the case for the Church of Bane that actually doesn't recognize at any point any kind of collegial or shared responsibility.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I do love your realism take on the realms as it closely matches how I portray mine.

The only comment that may be off is about warfare not being a viable option. There were a number of wars in the moonsea region (although they got little mention) I think zhentil keeps entire navy was destroyed 3 times in 30 years. While the overt reason for war may not have been religious in nature, the side that attained victory may well have gained an upper hand in the struggle for religious dominance.

I do fully intend to visit the church of Bane fracturing from a more humanist point of view as it is really interesting and drives political feuds for the foreseeable future.

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Originally posted by Icelander

See the Curse of the Azure Bonds and Ruins of Zhentil Keep. Bane doesn't step in to directly appoint the head of the Orthodox or Transformed Churches to lead his faith and the strife between them takes the form of legalistic wrangling, politics, intrigue and propaganda to convince the important people within the church to follow them.

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Originally posted by Icelander

The strife between High Imperceptor Szchulan Darkoon, High Inquisitor Ginali and Imperceptor Fzoul Chembryl was in many ways similar to the Popes of Avignon and Rome, not to mention the strife for the papacy between the de Borja/Borgia family and the Della Rovere family, or the Orsini and Colonna families. Not to mention that the First and Second Banedeaths, as well as the inquisitions after the return of Bane, had plenty of parallels to real history, which probably don't need to be spelled out.

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Originally posted by Icelander

It doesn't really matter whether the organisation recognises collegial responsibility, the fact is that in order for any one person to exercise authority over a large organisation, he or she needs the tacit acceptance of the established order. All the indispensable bureaucrats, middle managers and every other cog in the organisation have to decide to support the new master, or at least not to actively resist him. Otherwise, any title, divinely granted or not, would be empty.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Besides, from what I can tell, Bane selects his High Imperceptor from those who can already muster support from a lot of clergy and lay worshippers. Bane didn't select some holy child of pure faith, he selected the veteran victor of about a century of religious strife and office politics in the Moonsea, even if there were extremely legitimate concerns about his loyalty.

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Originally posted by Icelander

That being said, Bane has only directly selected his High Imperceptor and then only when he returned from the death.

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Originally posted by Icelander

All other titles within the faith are self-bestowed, as long as the prospective candidate can convince a higher-ranking priest to recognise the title.

That suggests to me that becoming the master of a Banite temple upon the death of the last high priest usually involved getting the approval of the sitting High Imperceptor or of one or more of the nearest Baneliches who were former High Imperceptors. As there was only one High Imperceptor and 35 Baneliches, I think that that method was more common.

Steven Schend made sure that not all 35 Baneliches were destroyed in the Tyrantfog, as it stretched from Zhentil Keep to Starmantle and the Sunset Mountains to Tsurlagol, with a second area of fog appeared between Mintar and Saradush. That leaves the area around the Black Lord's Cloak wide open and I would tend to assume that at least one and probably several Baneliches are associated with that temple.

The most probable way that Kabarrath Telthaug became the high priest of the temple is through acceptance by these Baneliches, which, in turn, was heavily dependent on their appraisal of his political support within the church, as they have no interest in a tyrant who cannot lead his own temple.

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Originally posted by Demzer

Of course Bane doesn't step in, the Orthodox church already had a head at that point, from Ruins of Zhentil Keep we know that Szchulan Darkoon, 8th High Imperceptor rose to the seat in or shortly after 1224 DR (death of Brist, 7th High Imperceptor). It was probably a mistery to contemporary Banites while Fzoul was allowed his open defiance but we have the benefit of knowing that he was destined to great things (and the spiel about "strife is good" which I personally find distasteful but fits with the old Banite dogma) and Bane didn't care about "appointing" the head of the Transformed Church (or maybe he implicitly did allowing Fzoul's rise to power, but that's beside the point) because he already had a living head of his church. We will never know if Bane would have done something in a direct showdown because wisely both contendents avoided that and preferred the political maneuvering that you outlined.

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Originally posted by Demzer

In which ways was it similar to the Avignon Papacy? The real world historical events were dictated by the influence of the dangerous situation in Rome and the high pressures from Philip IV of France, threatening a much greater schism. Fzoul decided of his own volition to disregard the authority of the High Imperceptor and actually split the church.

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Originally posted by Demzer

In which ways was it similar to the power struggles of the Borgia, Della Rovere, Orsini and Colonna families? All of these families were already powerful noble families with extensive holdings and connections to other noble families and royalty all over Europe, something that was automatic in the society at the time with the second male child of every catholic noble family sent into the ranks of the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church actually being it's own kingdom (with the added benefit of the Pope interfering with the affairs of foreign kingdoms on "moral grounds", albeit at his own peril). No kingdom in the Realms has such extensive connections between a single church and the nobility (even in the Old Empires it was the other way around with priests automatically being pushed up the social ladder, not nobility falling into the church as a backup because they would not inherit) and it isn't said anywhere that either Fzoul or Szchulan (... which have mighty similar names now that I wrote them one next to the other, at least in the way I think they should be pronounced ...) were of noble birth, not them nor any other High Imperceptor.

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Originally posted by Demzer

If the head of the organization can casually smite to death with his divinely granted powers the opposition than you have to be sure to be as powerful as them (without counting your own divine power, in case it gets taken from you since you are going against your godly appointed leader) before opposing them. The analogy would be with a Prime Minister with power of life and death over the members of Parliament from his own political party. Or in other words, a tyranny.

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Originally posted by Demzer

That's why Telthaug did his own thing unopposed, he was mighty powerful by himself and probably favored by Bane in the same way as Fzoul but he didn't push the issue with the High Imperceptor and minded his own business so there wasn't much open strife between Mourktar and Mulmaster (geographical distance helping the High Imperceptor in overlooking Telthaug exception).

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Originally posted by Demzer

Which doesn't imply anything regarding royalty, nobility or being deeply invested in the political power of the region. Most of the High Imperceptors of the past are remembered because of the expansion of the Church in territories where the open worship is deeply disliked (if not persecuted) and the killing of their enemies. They are remembered not because they were attending banquets and balls and signing treaties with rulers but because they were creating plagues and killing Harpers.

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Originally posted by Demzer

Wrong. Bane did indeed only select the High Imperceptor, but before the ToT, after his Return it was only Fzoul, Chosen Tyrant of Bane (you can find it in Faiths & Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons).

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Originally posted by The Ruins of Zhentil Keep

The High Imperceptor is selected from among all the Imperceptors at a special council called in Mulmaster when the previous High Imperceptor enters the afterlife or retires.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

So, given that Bane is willing to have a half-orc, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a half-dragon or a half-fiend as a priest in his service (or even a fiendish half-dragon or half-dragon tielfling.... for I can easily see an alu-fiend or tiefling and a dragon pairing just as much as I can see a dragon and a human pairing... and Unther is known for their tiefling population). So, if we accept that, then Kabbarrath Telthaug could be centuries old.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Throw into this factor that I can't see a temple of Bane existing in Threskel while Gilgeam ruled. I also kind of don't see one during the reign of Tchazzar as ruler of Chessenta in human form, unless it were Bane that helped raise Tchazzar to godhood initially.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ironically, in the original Draconomicon, it says that there's a "Banespear" which is separated into parts that can kill Gilgeam, and its known to Maldraedior, the Millenium dragon beneath Dalath in Unther. It kind of makes me think maybe Tchazzar had this weapon, and this is why Gilgeam was afraid to face him (possibly this weapon is another artifact of Bane's like the Black Lord's Cloak). Maybe after Tchazzar's death is when the spear was separated into pieces (perhaps Gilgeam's worshippers even took one portion and worshippers of Bane have the other).

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Anyway, IF Kabbarath Telthaug is say a half-dragon, he could be old enough that perhaps he FOUNDED the temple of the Black Lord's Cloak (noting not all half-dragons have lizard heads... some just have reptilian eyes, exaggerated teeth, bits of scaley skin. He might even be a half-dragon dracolich/banelich with the Black Lord's Cloak serving as his phylactery.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Maybe he's slowly gained political power over time, and only in the mid 1300's did the Black Lord's Cloak grow as big as it did.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I do like the idea as well that maybe he got the Black Lord's Cloak off of Algashon following the fight with Tuelhalva Drakewings, and having this artifact may have helped him form the temple... maybe even with some of the Cult of the Dragon members who came down to destroy Peleveran supporting him.

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Originally posted by Icelander

My interpretation of these events is that it was no mystery to contemporary Banites. This kind of political maneuvering has always been a part of the Banite church, just as the office of High Imperceptor has been.

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Originally posted by Icelander

The situation in the Moonsea and the military tension, if not wars, between Zhentil Keep and Mulmaster, allowed Fzoul Chembryl to operate for almost century without the High Imperceptor being able to rein him in.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Fzoul Chembryl is from a noble family in Zhentil Keep. I've always assumed that Szchulan Darkoon was, as well, albeit probably from a Mulmastran family.

Note that in early Realms material, surnames were only possessed by those of gentle birth. Commoners had only one name, with possibly a nickname or appelation related to their profession or date of birth. So anyone listed with two actual names in 2e Realms material, like the Ruins of Zhentil Keep, is clearly of the upper classes.

Tomar of Bane and Brist of Bane, therefore, are not identifiably noble, but were probably raised within the faith, perhaps with parents in high positions within the hierarchy. Strife, as the ward of a High Imperceptor, raised as her heir, is obviously effectively aristocracy, in much the same way as the Pope's 'nephews and nieces' were accounted aristocracy in the historical Papal States. The rest of the High Imperceptors seem to be of noble families.

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Originally posted by Icelander

It's important to recognise that the theoretical power to execute anyone who displeases you doesn't really translate into the ability to rule through daily executions. If nothing else, it means that before long, nobody in your service knows where things are in the pantry, not to mention no one having the institutional memory to exert effective control outside the direct visual range of the tyrant.

From G. Julius Caesar on, the rulers of Rome were technically 'tyrants', in that they had the ability to have people executed, whether through the position of the Dictator, like Caesar, or the combination of proconsular powers and the tribunican powers, like future Emperors. Yet this did not free them from the necessity of political maneuvering, building consensus, maintaining the support of their underlings and worrying about public opinion.

To take a modern example, Putin certainly doesn't appear to shy away from murdering political opponents, but anyone who studies the political situation in Russia cannot help but notice how much work he has to do on placating various entrenched interests, building a consensus and catering to oligarchs and apparatchiks.

Broadly speaking, there is a wide range between active revolution against a tyrant and simply not doing enough to enable that tyrant to rule effectively and if a tyrant has no public support, no connections and no political base, he'll find that his authority is effectively limited to people within his direct line of sight, because no one tells him the truth about anything that is happening further away.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Sure, geographical distance helped, but with the Transformed Church of Bane, the Orthodox Church of Bane, the Risen Cult of Bane, the True Church of Bane, the Old Church of Bane and so on, one does get the feeling that schism and strife was more the rule than the exception within Bane's church, even before the Time of Troubles.

Bane seems to have encouraged his servants to strive for position and not interfered in the political maneuverings that resulted.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Dread Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug was not indulging in an atypical act when he claimed the self-bestowed title of 'Dread' Imperceptor, he was doing what most senior servants of Bane have done. Once a priest of Bane gets a whole temple listening to him, it's a pretty short path from there to him thinking that his path represents the true faith of Bane.

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Originally posted by Icelander

The church of Bane has had a position in the power structure of Zhentil Keep and Mulmaster pretty comparable to the Catholic Church in the Papal States for a long time. We don't know how long it has had a similar position in Mourktar, but it has it now, at any rate, along with Mintarn and a growing number of other places.

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by Demzer

Wrong. Bane did indeed only select the High Imperceptor, but before the ToT, after his Return it was only Fzoul, Chosen Tyrant of Bane (you can find it in Faiths & Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons).

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Originally posted by The Ruins of Zhentil Keep

The High Imperceptor is selected from among all the Imperceptors at a special council called in Mulmaster when the previous High Imperceptor enters the afterlife or retires.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Good call on the surname thing for commoners

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Old Grey Box

General guidelines on naming
are as follows.
Common Humanity. The greater bulk
of humanity takes a single name, such
as "Doust" or "Mourngrym", with a secondary
name added if there is confusion,
either from profession ("Doust the
Fighter"), location ("Doust of Shadowdale
"), or lineage (the latter in particular
if some legendary figure was in the
family line, such as "Doust, Grandson of
Miniber the Sage").
[...]
Human Nobles and Gentry. These
individuals tend to retain the "family
name", a name usually derived from the
individual who established the family's
fame, position, or prowess. Such names
are retained even after the nobility has
fallen from grace or power.

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