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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2013 :  18:44:37  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm currently reworking some things I'm doing with the Old Empires in my Realms, particularly Unther. The critical piece of lore I'm working with involves Threskel and the city of Mourktar. I'm sharing my lore notes (which I organized and rewrote) here with everyone, in hopes of filling in anything I missed, or correcting anything I have wrong. I also would just like to have a wider discussion on the region as a whole, as I'm hoping that this will help generate some good ideas.

What follows is all the canon information I have been able to find involving Threskel (though mostly Mourktar) prior to 4th Edition. I've included references for the sake of convenience, and so that my work can be double checked.

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Threskel was a land that was claimed by both Unther and Chesenta, though in truth neither controlled it. They considered themselves an independent nation. (Third Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, pg. 183)

The nation was divided between two cities, both with their own kings. On the western edge of Threskel, at the north eastern edge of the Bay of Chessenta situated at the mouth of the Jade River was the city of Mordulkin. It was a wealthy city that was ruled by the powerful House Jedea; a house strongly linked with the study and practice of the Art. It's king, Hercubes Jedea was an aging monarch that was attempting to live long enough until there was a suitable heir to replace him. However, the odds of that happening didn't look good. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 72)

However, I want to primarily focus on the city of Mourktar, which was located on the eastern edge of Threskel, near the northern tip of the Alamber Sea. A smaller city than Mordulkin it was known for its aggressive trading and large port capable of handling most of Threskel's exports. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 72)

I believe most people assume that the largest and most powerful temple of Bane is either located in Zhentil Keep or in Mulmaster (which is usually considered to be the center of the faith). However, these assumptions would be wrong. The largest -AND- the most powerful temple of Bane is known as the Black Lords Cloak, and it is located in the city of Mourktar. It's name is derived from the artifact held within, a magical cloak that once was worn by Bane prior to his ascension to divinity, and it is now considered a holy relic.

The Black Lords Cloak was led by Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug, who - just days before the Time of Troubles - declared his independence from the standard Banite hierarchy, and named himself High Imperceptor - basically declaring himself the leader of the faith of Bane. Since this was days before the Time of Troubles, it wasn't long after this event that Bane was slain, which in turn threw the Moonsea Banites into complete and utter turmoil. The faith in that region became divided between those who moved on to worship Cyric and those that were attempting to embrace the Godson, Iyachtu Xvim.

This level of turmoil didn't take place among the faithful in Threskel. Unlike Fzoul and most of the faithful in the Moonsea region, High Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug remained true to Bane, even after his death. It isn't explicitly written, but I believe it is likely that Kabarrath either tortured or executed anyone who converted to Cyric or Xvim. The text makes it unclear how Kabarrath maintained his divine spellcasting ability after Bane's death. (However, it should be noted that Eric L. Boyd later suggested that the clerics there likely took the Servant of the Fallen feat from Lost Empires of Faerun pg. 9)

Kabarrath was an ambitious man to say the least, and had the power to back it up. He commanded scores of Banite clergy of significant rank and scores more lesser priests of the faith. On top of that he had his own military which was well equipped and highly "practiced in slaughter." Then on top of that Kabarrath and the other "priests of the Cloak" (as they are collectively called) oversaw several adventuring companies namely the Six Black Blades and the Crow Banners. The Crow Banners were rather large and active not just in Threskel, but as far out as Murghom, Mulhorand, and Var the Golden. They were tasked to seek out magic, wealth, and other supplies for the temple and the greater glory of Bane. This does not even speak to the rumored connections to the widely feared pirate fleet of Alkoth, which was said to also secretly bend the knee to the priests of the Cloak.

A man with all this power, especially one who has just declared himself independent from the rest of the greater Church of Bane by naming himself High Imperceptor, has every intention of using his accumulated power. And he did. He did this by rigging the tournament that was supposed to declare a worthy successor of King Theris of Mourktar in 1358 DR, and upon the King's death he declared himself the "Regent of Mourktar".

This was to be his first step toward even greater things. He had his eyes set to the south on Unther, and it is likely he would have made a move to conquer those lands had fate not thrown a wrench into his plans. (Faiths and Avatars, pg. 39)

You see, Threskel has an issue with dragons, and by issue I mean the entire region is full of them. Most of them seem to dwell in the Riders to the Sky Mountains, and this shouldn't be all that shocking considering the strength of the faith of Tiamat in the region.

The region - in fact all of Chessenta, Threskel, and Unther (collectively referred to as "Old Unther") - was claimed by Alasklerbanbastos, known as the Great Bone Wyrm. Alasklerbanbastos was an ancient enemy of Tchazzar and they battled for control of the lands of Old Unther. It was believed that Tchazzar had ascended to divinity in 1019 DR, and in desperation the Great Bone Wyrm turned to the Cult of the Dragon and became the first (and to date the most powerful) dracolich in the region. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 44-46)

The Cult of the Dragon had long operated out of Mourktar, and was considered rather dogmatic by the standards of the other cells of the Cult. They embraced the teachings of Algashon over the teachings of Sammaster, and to that end emphasized devotion to Bane. The Cult for some time functioned as a secret society among the Black Lords Cloak in Mourktar. However, it would be a mistake to assume that they only operated within Mourktar. Their influence extended throughout the entire region, and their base of operations was within the lair of Alasklerbanbastos - the ancient lava tubes and slave-dug tunnels within Dragonback Mountain. Most importantly, they had a strong operation in Messemprar the last remaining free city of Unther. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 55 & 56)

After the death of Tchazzar during the Time of Troubles (1358 DR) which led to the rebirth of Tiamat, Alasklerbanbastos felt more free to resume his plans to take over the lands of Old Unther. To this end he began to unite many of the dragons in the region under his rule. Then in 1365 DR he began rewarding his most loyal draconic servants with fiefdoms in Threskel and Chessenta. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 72)

This led to a problem for High Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug as the "Regent of Mourktar", as well as the rulers of Mordulkin. Jaxanaedegor, the greatest and most successful of the Great Bone Wyrm's Vassals, declared himself "Viceroy of Threskel" and demanded tribute from both Mourktar and Mordulkin in the name of Alasklerbanbastos. Both cities refused and largely ignored him, until he - along with several lesser dracoliches - launched a series of attacks against several major trade caravans entering and leaving both cities. As neither city was able to stand up to the combined might of so many dragons who had been united under Alasklerbanbastos, they were forced to give tribute. However, Kabarrath was not replaced. Instead he began to rule with a trio of juvenile blue dragons who served as councilors who ferried him around the region. They communicated to him the Great Bone Wyrm's concerns and desires. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 72)

This was problematic for the High Imperceptor, no doubt, but things took a turn for the worse for Alasklerbanbastos in the Year of Rogue Dragons (1373 DR). During this year Alasklerbanbastos made a failed attempt to completely unite the Cult of the Dragon - all the cells - under his control. He also forged an alliance with the Church of Tiamat, which caused a rift among the Cultists from Mourktar who followed him. To make matters worse, Tchazzar - his ancient and most hated enemy - returned and destroyed many of his draconic servants in Chessenta. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 44-46)

Things really started to look bad for Alasklerbanbastos after these events. Tchazzar had returned and once more enthroned himself as Sceptenar of Cimbar. He then began to plot and scheme to unite the cities of Chessenta under his rule again, and it seemed clear that once that took place he was going to turn his attention to Threskel and then Unther. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 37-39)

The alliance Alasklerbanbastos had forged with the Church of Tiamat in Unther, and in particular Messemprar was in danger as Tchazzar was the Chosen of Tiamat. It was quite clear that he could and would eventually begin undermining that fragile alliance. And that very alliance was also undermining Alasklerbanbastos with the Cult of the Dragon from Mourktar. Furthermore, due to Alasklerbanbastos's actions to try and take control of the Cult of the Dragon the other cells (and particularly the new Ruling Triumvirate) considered the Mourktar cell to be in full rebellion, and a schism formed. (Dragons of Faerun, pg. 55 & 56, 44-46)

The following year, 1374 DR, called the Year of Lightning Storms, the relationship between Alasklerbanbastos and High Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug seemed to grow stronger.

By this time Mulhorand had conquered all of Unther except for the city of Messemprar, and were planning to advance despite the dragons the Great Bone Wyrm had sent to defend the city against the advancing Mulhorandi forces. Before this could happen, however, Banite templars from the Black Lords Cloak (who were also receiving support from Thay in the form of magical weapons at cut-rate prices) marched south to defend Messemprar. (Power of Faerun, pg. 28)

In addition to this act, which may have been nothing more than shoring up a defensible last stand, a second event took place that could have shaken up the war. The people of Shussel - who disappeared in an event known as the Vanishing - reappeared as elite aasimar warriors. They called themselves the Legion of Nanna-Sin (Nanna-Sin is a former Untheric deity, and it is believed that Selune is using this as an alias). They opened up a new front in the war on the Mulhorandi armies rear flank. (Power of Faerun, pg. 28)

--------

It's at this point where the pre-4E lore begins to dry up, or at least all the lore that I can find.

I'm really interested in people's thoughts on Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug. He appears to be one of the most interesting characters in the region that never got much play or face time.

Not only did he command the largest and most powerful temple to Bane in Faerun, he had the balls to break with the hierarchy and declare himself High Imperceptor - effectively the leader of the faith. Then when Bane died during the Time of Troubles, so many other ran to Cyric or later to Xvim. Not Kabarrath. He stood strong with the Black Hand even as others like Fzoul faltered. When the Great Bone Wyrm placed him in a position that he couldn't fight his way out of he accepted that he had to give tribute, but effectively turned the trio of dragons that were supposed to co-rule with him into "advisers" and a glorified ferry service.

It seems to me that Kabarrath is now effectively holding all the cards in his relationship with Alasklerbanbastos, and both would have a shared interest in keeping Threskel out of the hands of Tchazzar.

Kabarrath takes center stage with my plans for Unther and Threskel, and I'd like to know if there is any more official information on him or the church of Bane in the region.

Also! I should point out that I'm aware that after 2nd Edition the temple to Bane in Mourktar was named the "Black Lord's Altar". However, this is incorrect and is basically a typo. The Black Lord's Altar is located in Mulmaster (which is considered to be the center of the Banite faith) according to Faiths and Avatars on page 39. So, in my write up above I just made the correction.

BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
335 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2013 :  03:25:10  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love your write-up of events there, it gives a lot of flavour and action to the disparate appearances of the region, and makes Telthaug look pretty awesome.

However, you may have missed the fundamental source, Old Empires, which lays the groundwork for the region and details Mourktar under King Theris, and not a whiff of Bane or Telthaug. It also details the athletic contest for the crown and the key players. There's a frustrating gap in the history though: we don't know who won the games (Helyos came runner-up, mentioned in Gold & Glory) and was briefly king of Mourktar before they were assassinated. However, one of those contestants was an assassin — Sorn, servant of Zulkir Lauzoril of Thay. There's the question of whether Laurozil was assisting Telthaug or whether Telthaug's plot preempted Laurozil's, and saved Threskel from Thay (or both!).

Powers & Pantheons details the temple of Hoar/Assuran from when he was dominant god in Mourktar, and by extension, the legal system in Mourktar (trial by combat). I can see the Assuran faithful nursing a grudge against those of Bane, for pushing them out of power and ruining Theris's and Assuran's plans for Mourktar.

The Grand History of the Realms takes the history of the region up to 1379 DR, but only to mention that Messemprar has fallen and Threskel is consolidated under Mourktar and Alasklerbanbastos (Ha! Spelled it first time right without looking!).

Curiously, Threskel's past is hinted at in the computer games Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide.
http://www.gamebanshee.com/showshot.php?/icewinddale/equipment/images/gauntletsofweaponexpertise.jpg
http://www.gamebanshee.com/showshot.php?/neverwinternights/equipment/images/eyesofcharming.jpg
A royal family, perhaps that of Mourktar, once ruled all of Threskel

I don't see Mordulkin as having much to do with Threskel though. All its history and politics is focused on Chessenta. Threskel is usually just Chessenta's backyard.

I researched all of Threskel a few years ago for my Chessenta game, and may have my PCs passing through it soon. The Thulbanian Games have been restarted, though moved to Mordulkin to avoid the dragons. Unfortunately, the Games have been marred by Untherite terrorists/Tiamat fanatics and their dragonspawn monsters in the colours of the Olympic Rings. :) The Mourktar team are carrying around banners of Bane's holy symbol, in a form suspiciously similar to the Nazi swastika.

One of my personal bugbears about the 4th edition changes was that parts of Chessenta and Threskel were being taken over by dragons, half-dragons were showing up, and the place was ripe for a dragonborn warrior culture to arise — only for one from another planet to land on neighbouring Unther instead. :(

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki

Edited by - BadCatMan on 02 Jun 2013 10:34:07
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1614 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2013 :  09:28:43  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You've pretty much summed up the total official lore on the area. All I can add is an idea. In the south of Chessenta is a bandit army led by a LE warrior named Furifax (although in my homebrew he has been replaced). The group is a bit far off but you may want to consider finding a way to bring them into any conflicts you may create.

In my homebrew one of our PCs (a female half-elf Ftr/Rog/Wiz) took over the leadership of the group by rite of combat. I originally styled this group similar to the army found in the movie The Postman with Kevin Costner. Leadership could be challenged by combat by any member at anytime (in the movie). In my homebrew, the bandits had a long-standing tradition in which leadership could be challenged by any member during the winter months (when the group was least active)...usually toward the end of the winter.

The PC joined the group, received their mark on her left shoulder, and eventually became the leader's lover. After obtaining his secrets she forged the groundwork for her takeover (it wasnt required, but it was usually good business to have the support of prominent members). Furifax was secretly under the control of illithids and the PC exposed it. She then challenged Furifax and won...and began to 'legitimize' the band by having them side with the group she represented (an adventuring/mercenary company called The Dragonheart).

The full story gets a bit complex. One member joined some pirates on the Sea of Fallen Stars and became a prominent leader among them, another joined the Enclave, and yes, one became the leader of Mourktar in my campaign, and their large mercenary army joined what became known as the War of Red Tears as the three major factions in Chessenta came to blows, followed by the invasion of Mourktar by the Black Lord's Cloak, and then the unrest in Unther, and the other events you've already noted with the Church of Tiamat and Tchazzar's Return...among other things. It was a wild campaign.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2013 :  11:11:58  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys. I'm aware that I left Old Empires out, mostly because it didn't contain a lot of relevant information and everything was dated pre-Time of Troubles. Also, since the main focus of the narrative was on Mourktar and in particular the Church of the Black Lord's Cloak and it's leader, and neither the church nor Kabarrath were mentioned in Old Empires...

However, I did go back over Old Empires with a fine tooth comb, and managed to salvage some interesting pre-Time of Troubles lore. Also, I started taking some notes from Dreams of the Red Wizards and the Unapproachable East - all dealing with Banites in Thay. There are some interesting things panning out in that area that may be relevant.

I'm currently organizing all of that and more, and hope to have some additional lore and interesting possibilities involving the Red Wizards in a future post. I still need to go through Grand History and Powers and Pantheons as BadCatMan suggested, but I've already gathered the information involving Helyos and the Renegades from Gold & Glory - some of which also appears in the Old Empires.

Hopefully, I'll have it all put together soon in an easy to follow format.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2013 :  11:19:54  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I should also note that I used the map in Dragons of Faerun on page 71 to get a good estimate of the size of Threskel. Based on my measurements it covers roughly 41,400 Square Miles. For a better visualization that's about the size of Ohio or Switzerland.

I also estimated that the travel time from Mourktar to Escalant to be roughly 3 to 5 days by ship, depending on travel speed.
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
335 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2013 :  12:43:08  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, I had the impression you wanted more about Threskel and Mourktar in general. They're useful for background anyway. I get the impression that Mourktar was once solidly an Assuran-worshipping city, and that Telthaug and the Banites made a lightning-fast rise to power. (My analogy of Banites is always fascism, dictatorships, and Nazis.)

I can confirm that The Shadow Stone and Maiden of Pain say nothing the region. The Alabaster Staff in The Rogues series seems to cover Banites making in-roads into Unther, though bizarrely by the Zhentarim.

I didn't do much with the Mourktar Banites, bar this one odd bit in my notes to explain the change of name of the temple: "The temple used to be known as the Black Lord's Cloak for its only relic, an animated black cloak once worn by Bane himself that became a sentient monster that enveloped people from time to time and sucked them dry of all blood. The Cloak has since gone missing under mysterious circumstances, and the people of Mourktar are always very careful to check their linen cupboards and wardrobes." :D

An interesting possibility is Shurrupak, Gilgeam's rogue epic psychopath executioner. Local powers like the Red Wizards and the church of Tiamat have tried to get him on their side with no success. Kabarrath would certainly have a go, and could be the man to do it.

A possible correction: Kabarrath declared himself "Dread Imperceptor", not "High Imperceptor", which isn't quite the same as naming himself head of the faith.

What did you make of the last paragraph of the entry in Faiths & Avatars? Kabarrath is starting to go a bit mad, the Mourktar Banites changed their colours to green, and the suggestion that Cyric or Xvim is supporting them?

One theory of mine is that, with the missing cloak and the colour change anticipating Bane's new symbol, that Kabarrath and the Mourktar Banites kept Bane alive and helped along his resurrection in 1372 DR. Maybe Kabarrath wasn't mad, Bane was just hiding out in him or in the Cloak and whispering in his ear. :)

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2013 :  23:57:15  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Sorry, I had the impression you wanted more about Threskel and Mourktar in general.


I do - it's just that my primary focus is on Mourktar, because Kabarrath and the Banites focus heavily on what I'm doing with the region in my Realms. Since I'm not importing Tymanther from Abeir, but I am moving the time line forward 100+ years I need to work out what happens to Unther, Chessenta, Threskel, Mulhorand, and Thay.

I already had a decent outline, and some things are already firmed up. For example, I used the Thayan civil war but changed the outcome, a New Zulkirate was established, and they ultimately conquered the lands of Mulhorand and Murghom.

I originally had things set up so that the Church of the Black Lord's Cloak eventually conquered the lands of occupied Unther, and established a powerful Banite theocracy in the region. They were to serve as a counter balance to Thay's continued expansion westward toward Chessenta.

However, I was responding to someone else on the forums in a side discussion about what should happen with the Old Empires - Mulhorand and Unther in particular during 5E - and I was making a suggestion that was more likely to fit with the canon lore of post Sundering.

As I was writing my response and giving an explanation, I started to realize a few holes in my plan. It was nothing insurmountable or that I couldn't explain away, but I decided to go back to the lore to try and iron things out. My goal is to iron all the canon stuff out, so that I can then shift toward creating a non-canon timeline for my Realms and a logical explanation for what took place with Kabarrath and the Black Lord's Cloak.

Hence this thread and the gathering of canon lore for the region.


quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

I get the impression that Mourktar was once solidly an Assuran-worshipping city, and that Telthaug and the Banites made a lightning-fast rise to power. (My analogy of Banites is always fascism, dictatorships, and Nazis.)


I can see how someone would come to that conclusion, but my take is somewhat different. I believe both the lore for Assuran and Bane were inserted after Old Empires was printed. Just as Old Empires doesn't really mention anything about the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak it also doesn't mention anything about the Amphitheater of the First Thunder. I actually find that problematic, because it seems like the Tournament SHOULD HAVE been held there rather than at the base of Mount Thulbane. However, this is easy enough to explain away by saying that there needed to be neutral ground for the competition, as well as more space.

My feeling is that the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak is ancient, and was likely one of the first temples built to Bane outside of the Moonsea.

I've found it VERY difficult to date the year of the ascension of the Dark Three. However, it has to be prior to 106 DR, the Year of the Adamantine Spiral. By this time Myrkul had already established a church which was located in "Castle Al'hanar" which destroyed a dracolich that was guarding the demon lord Eltab... which they freed in exchange for 99 years of service. The demon helped them seize the city of Shandaular in the Council Hills and establish the theocracy of Eltabranar, which encompassed most of the Eastern Shaar.

The Council Hills are immediately south of Unther, and with a theocracy that large it is certain that the worship of Bane - if not already in the region - was certain to follow.

We also know, from Grand History of the Realms, that the Dark Shrine, the first Temple of Bane in Zhentil Keep wasn't established until 753 DR, the Year of Strife by the warrior-priest of Bane known as Brest.

Bane, however, was active in the Realms before this because in 710 DR - Year of the Toppled Throne - is the first time Iyachtu Xvim showed up in the Realms. He appeared and seized the throne of Westgate.

Sammaster was born in 800 DR, and this is important because we know the Cult of the Dragon cell in Mourktar follows the teachings of Algashon Nathaire, the Banite Priest who corrupted Sammaster. This either means one of two things - either the Cult of the Dragon established the Temple in Mourktar or that it already existed prior to the formation of the Cult of the Dragon.

We know for a fact that the cell in Mourktar was active in 1018 DR because that is when they transformed Alasklerbanbastos into a dracolich. Thus, we know - at the very least - that the Banite faith has been active in Mourktar since that time.

It should be noted that Mourktar declared independence from Unther in 823 DR, the Year of the Floating Petals. This is BEFORE the formation of the Cult of the Dragon.

We also know that Mourktar likely existed around -150 DR or -135 DR. It is named directly in Old Empires, along with Delthuntle and Laothkund, as suffering under oppressive taxes as wealth was flowing through them from the ruined kingdoms of Narfell and Raumathar. Those nations fell in their great battle in -150 DR, and Unther began expanding northward in -135 DR.

Thus, it's my feeling that Mourktar dates itself as older than -150 DR, and it was certainly a place of influence by 823 DR, as that was the year it declared its independence. This was BEFORE Thay existed - Thay wasn't independent until 922 DR, nearly 100 years later.

Based on the lore I've looked over regarding Thay and the Banite's there - it's my belief that the Church of the Black Lord's Cloak was active AT LEAST around 106 DR - the same year the clergy of Myrkul from Castle Al'hanar freed Eltab from his imprisonment and seized the city of Shandaular to form the theocracy of Eltabranar in the Council Hills.

My reasoning behind this is that I think the Church of the Black Lord's Cloak is responsible for the spread of Bane's faith in Thay. This is the reason the distance from Mourktar to Escalant is important, as according to the Unapproachable East post-ToT Escalant has the largest Temple to Bane in Thay. (Things get a bit more complicated when we go to Dreams of the Red Wizards... but this is something I'm still working out.)

It's my belief that both the Amphitheater of the First Thunder and the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak was active around the same time. They likely even found common cause as they both likely struggled under the rule of Gilgeam. They also likely worked together in preparing Mourktar for their declaration of independence in 823 DR. (It was in the self-interest of both groups.)

I'm still ironing out things with Thay and how the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak might factor into it... but if it existed prior to 753 DR (and I see no reason that it wouldn't) that means it's older than the Temple of the Dark Shrine in Zhentil Keep.

I believe the first Temple of Bane established was the Black Lord's Altar in Mulmaster. It may be that the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak was the second or third temple established in the name of Bane in the Realms.

This would easily explain why it is the most powerful -AND- the largest (in terms of membership).

Things are still being ironed out, though. So sorry if the above is disjointed.

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

I can confirm that The Shadow Stone and Maiden of Pain say nothing the region. The Alabaster Staff in The Rogues series seems to cover Banites making in-roads into Unther, though bizarrely by the Zhentarim.


My feeling is that the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak and the Banites from the Moonsea don't get along very well. The Banites in the south never seemed to have the problems that the Moonsea Banites experienced.

It's my hunch that one of the things that led Kabarrath to declare his independence from the main Banite hierarchy was the schism that formed in the Moonsea between the Orthodox and Transformed factions of the church of Bane. Other general embarrassing shenanigans from the Banites in the region likely illustrated to the Banites of the Black Lord's Cloak that they were unsuited to rule the church. Believing themselves more suited, they declared their independence. However, there were also likely other differences between the groups - perhaps in doctrine - as well.

According to Old Empires, there was a faction of Banites loyal to the Zhents operating in Unthalass, but my feeling is that they were unconnected with the priests of the Cloak. They were also working for Manshoon, at least in the beginning. I'm not sure what took place in the Rogues series.

However, speaking of Rogues - Mordulkin has the largest organized Thieves Guild in the south operating within their walls, according to Old Empires. I found that interesting, and I immediately pictured a group like the Shadow Thieves of Amn. (Though obviously they would be unconnected.)

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

I didn't do much with the Mourktar Banites, bar this one odd bit in my notes to explain the change of name of the temple: "The temple used to be known as the Black Lord's Cloak for its only relic, an animated black cloak once worn by Bane himself that became a sentient monster that enveloped people from time to time and sucked them dry of all blood. The Cloak has since gone missing under mysterious circumstances, and the people of Mourktar are always very careful to check their linen cupboards and wardrobes." :D


LOL. That's hilarious. I contemplated trying to come up with a reason for the name change, but I ultimately decided that it was a typographical error. The Black Lord's Altar ALREADY exists - in Mulmaster. Thus, the only logical explanation that I could give would have been that they changed the name from the Black Lord's Cloak to the Black Lord's Altar as they were declaring themselves the new center of Bane's faith. (As Faiths and Avatars says that Mulmaster was widely considered to be the center of the faith.)

I wasn't big on the description of the cloak itself. However, I see it being treated as a holy artifact, and thus if it went missing I'd imagine the Banites would be willing to fight a holy crusade - even to the death - to get it back.

I mean, I just pictured how some people squee when they think about seeing something like the Virgin Marry in a piece of toast or a tree stump, then I imagine how Banites must feel about having a confirmed artifact that was actually worn by their deity prior to his ascension...

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

A possible correction: Kabarrath declared himself "Dread Imperceptor", not "High Imperceptor", which isn't quite the same as naming himself head of the faith.


Yeah, when I went back to Faiths and Avatars I noticed my mistake.

However, I went to the ranks and titles of the Clerics of Bane, and "Dread Imperceptor" wasn't listed. In fact none of the ranks have "Dread" in their title. Based on my understanding the "highest" rank in the clergy is Deeper Mystery - which was held by all clerics over 12th level. The Titles: Vigilator, Lord/Lady of Mysteries, Lord/Lady of the Hand, Imperceptor, Dark Imperceptor, Grand Bloodletter, and High Inquisitor were all self-selected, but only officially recognized if used by a cleric of higher ranking. The only title that wasn't self-selected was High Imperceptor.

Prior to his declaring himself independent of the hierarchy Kabarrath was known as Imperceptor - thus indicating that he was at least over 12th level, and one of the ranking clerics of the faith under the High Imperceptor.

However, things are a bit... messy when it comes to the High Imperceptor. According to Faith's and Avatars the High Imperceptor was in theory the supreme living servant of Bane (though many former High Imperceptors survived as Baneliches), and was formally and DIRECTLY recognized as such by Bane. However, in practice it was a declared leadership, as evidenced by the actions of Fzoul.

Prior to the Time of Troubles Fzoul led the faithful of Zhentil Keep into a schism, and assumed leadership over the splintered branch. Bane seemed pleased by Fzoul's actions, and it is hinted that he became High Imperceptor as a result. However, there have been many other rebellious leaders of the church of Bane, and Faiths and Avatars names the following groups: the Risen Cult of Bane, the Orthodox Church of Bane, the True Church of Bane, and the Old Church of Bane, and many others. Bane allowed such chaos over the years because he was the god of strife.

What does it mean that Kabarrath named himself "Dread Imperceptor" and declared himself independent of the hierarchy? My feeling is that it means Kabarrath was doing exactly what Fzoul was doing, though for perhaps different reasons which I discussed previously. However, he did this right before the Time of Troubles - literally - and thus was not recognized as High Imperceptor by Bane formally. (Since he died.)

Bane possessed Fzoul during the Time of Troubles according to Faiths and Avatars, and thus a great deal of power and authority shifted to Fzoul... which did it really matter after Bane's death?

Could Kabarrath and the Church of the Black Lord's Cloak not recognizing the death of Bane be a direct snub against Fzoul? If they recognized the death of Bane, they would have had to recognize Fzoul as having been blessed to hold the avatar of their deity.

There are a few issues that arise later.

First, the wide spread belief that Bane returned through the husk of Xvim. If they never recognized Bane's death, and continued to worship (and receive spells!) despite his death, then how could they recognize his return?

Second, after Bane's return in 1372 DR, he named Fzoul his "personal Chosen Tyrant and infallible mortal representative" - which is to say, I believe, High Imperceptor of the faith. He also ordered Fzoul to begin healing the fractious Banites who had, up until that point, been broken up between the Orthodox sect and the Transformed church.

However, does this include the schism that seemed to have formed with the Church of the Black Lord's Cloak? Did Kabarrath eventually bend the knee to Fzoul and heal their differences? If so, how do the priests of the Cloak reconcile the fact that they don't believe Bane died, and Fzoul clearly does? Why not simply name Fzoul a heretic, a liar, and maintain their independence from the hierarchy?

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

What did you make of the last paragraph of the entry in Faiths & Avatars? Kabarrath is starting to go a bit mad, the Mourktar Banites changed their colours to green, and the suggestion that Cyric or Xvim is supporting them?

One theory of mine is that, with the missing cloak and the colour change anticipating Bane's new symbol, that Kabarrath and the Mourktar Banites kept Bane alive and helped along his resurrection in 1372 DR. Maybe Kabarrath wasn't mad, Bane was just hiding out in him or in the Cloak and whispering in his ear. :)


I like that idea. The bit in Faiths and Avatars dealing with Cyric and Xvim seems to be more along the lines of: "maybe this is how he's receiving his clerical powers?" However, the bit about the green was a direct attempt to allude to Xvim granting their powers.

That being said, Eric L. Boyd suggested that the clerics there likely took the Servant of the Fallen feat from Lost Empires of Faerun. So, going with your idea...

...the Cloak may have housed some of Bane's divine essence, much like the Crown of Horns contains some of the divine essence of Myrkul currently. Thus, by taking the Servant of the Fallen feat, it may be that Kabarrath - as you suggested - had a direct hand in Bane coming back through Xvim in 1372 DR.

However, that would require them to acknowledge that Bane had died and Xvim had taken his place. Which in turn would require them to acknowledge Fzoul. Which in turn would later cause them to acknowledge the fact that Bane named Fzoul his "personal Chosen Tyrant and infallible mortal representative" - which would be one hellva slight against Kabarrath by Bane.

If the priests of the Cloak rejoined the Moonsea Banites, it would have been after 1372 DR. However, it's unclear if that happened, or whether or not Fzoul was only able to heal the schism between the Orthodox and the Transformed church. (A division that seems to be entirely - or at least mostly - of his doing in the first place.)

I'd also argue that Kabarrath was a Dreadmaster (the PrC outlined in Faiths and Pantheons). In terms of level and personal power, I'd put him at least equal to that of Fzoul.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 03 Jun 2013 :  00:01:14  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As to when the Dark Three ascended to divinity... the Sage and Gray Richardson have discussed this in the past, and I believe the lore they gave was very good; thus I'm just going to quote them directly.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Estimates suggest between 267 DR and 700 DR as the time of ascension for Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul.

Though... Lands of Intrigue notes that a young noble of Clan Fyrson, in -88 DR, was charged with worshipping the dark gods Bane and Myrkul. This tends to throw the above estimates out and suggests that Bane and Myrkul ascended earlier than 267 DR and after -339 DR which marks the Fall of Netheril.

We also know that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul slew Borem -- one of the Seven Lost Gods -- each seizing a portion of Borem's divine essence for themselves. This was, perhaps, shortly before they entered the Castle of Bone and confronted Jergal.

Faiths & Pantheons places the Lake of Boiling Mud's, which may have been the "avatar" of Borem, possible location on Mezeketh Isle -- two miles SW of Saerloon's harbor. It's also said that the Lake may have existed, during pre-Dale Reckoning, somewhere in Jhaamdath -- possibly in the vicinity of what would become Sembia. No specific dates are offered.

Jhaamdath "falls" in -255 DR. And Chondathan, which will eventually become Saerloon, was "properly" established between the 360's and 380's DR. 'Tis likely founded some time before that... given that Chondathan migrations across the Inner Sea to the lands of what will become Sembia, occur around the -200s DR.

Given the -339 DR starting point, and the details about the Lake possibly being located in pre-Dale Reckoning Jhaamdath, that could possibly narrow the period of Bane's ascension to between Netheril's Fall in -339 DR and the Fall of Jhaamdath in -255 DR.

Additionally, Eric Boyd offers this little tidbit...

"Implicit in your assumption is that the Lake of Burning Blood is a "real lake". I'd suggest that maybe it's a moveable lake (in other words, the lake is the "avatar" of Borem). Alternatively, it could be the lake is created by opening a blood-spewing portal. When the portal closes/moves, the lake drains away.

--Eric"




quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

See page 46 of the Grand History of the Realms. Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul slew Borem in the Year of Boiling Moats, which was -359 DR.

This was part of their epic quest necessary for ascending to divinity. They did not ascend immediately after slaying Borem, and in fact traveled to Cormanthor shortly after. Their quest could possibly have gone on for some years more, but it seems likely they ascended prior to the fall of Netheril. Although, in any case it could not have been later than -88 DR per the Lands of Intrigue reference that Sage already mentioned, as the trio were all well established as dark gods by that date.

It is possible that Jergal wanted to relinquish the dusk portfolio before the Fall of Netheril so that he could avoid his impending death. Netheril's fall also marks the passing of Amaunator, after which the god of Dusk would be ascendant according to Eric Boyd's tripartite sun theory. From that point, Jergal's days would be numbered. One theory is that Jergal passed his portfolio on to Myrkul so that Myrkul would die in his stead.

After Amaunator's recent reemergence in the current Realms, Jergal should be free to reclaim the Dusk portfolio from Kelemvor, if he still wants it.

Page 17 of the supplement to Dungeon #130 (issued as a free on-line pdf from Paizo) had conversion notes for the Age of Worms campaign for the Forgotten Realms, and contained some very interesting apocryphal lore about Jergal that embodied Eric Boyd's final thoughts about Jergal including an alternate theory regarding Jergal's motivations.

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BadCatMan
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Posted - 03 Jun 2013 :  02:59:19  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I bow to your superior analysis. :)

My feeling is that the Dark Three didn't instantly ascend to godhood but were epic mortal adventurers, and later demigods, who journeyed for centuries, performing great feats, conquering and slaying, and building a reputation and faith. People could have started worshipping them in life, which would be a large part of why they ascended. Thus their faith could date back well before their final ascension. (I dislike instant godhood for mortals like Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor. Mortals should earn their godhood and their believers.)

I understood that Deeper Mysteries of Bane got to choose their own titles, and that those listed were several examples (i.e., "Known individual titles... included:" suggests an incomplete list). Kabarrath chose "Dread Imperceptor" — which is certainly nudging at the High Imperceptor's position.

If you want a big, long Banite presence in the area, then, well, you have Mount Thulbane right there. :) Myth says that Hoar/Assuran is supposed to live on it, but then 4th edition made Hoar an exarch of Bane (despite Shar being the one courting him).

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Edited by - BadCatMan on 03 Jun 2013 03:00:21
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Aldrick
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Posted - 03 Jun 2013 :  07:29:34  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It may be that the ascension of the Dark Three was a myth perpetrated by their clergy, and their true ascension was far less glamorous. In truth, I prefer that explanation as well. However, we don't have anything to back that up.

They would have just ascended to some quasi-divine hero deity status (similar to something like a Chosen of Mystra, but slightly more powerful, and capable of granting divine spells). At some point they jumped from being quasi-divine to demigods, and thus truly ascended - then began rising higher and higher in divine power as their faith in Faerun spread.

Either way, it wouldn't really change anything.

You may be right about the Deeper Mysteries and how they handled things. However, my understanding is a bit different because of what Kabarrath chose to do.

quote:
Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug styled himself Dread Imperceptor in the days before the Time of Troubles, asserting his own independence of the standard Banite hierarchy. It is not hard to understand why: He commands over 700 Banite priests of rank, another 1,000 lesser clergy members, and a well-equipped, harshly disciplined army of loyal troops armed with many items of minor magic, and well practiced in slaughter. This army has been force-marched west to ravage cities in Chessenta time and time again only to pull back when the exercises are over.


He was already an Imperceptor - one of the titles chosen by the Deeper Mysteries - before he declared himself Dread Imperceptor. At the same time he declared himself independent of the Banite hierarchy.

If you're declaring yourself independent of the hierarchy, and choosing for yourself a new title... that's basically saying you're the new leader.

After all, if you've declared yourself independent of the hierarchy who is above you?

In my mind, Kabarrath Telthaug was waiting for Bane to name him High Imperceptor. However, the Time of Troubles hit, Bane chose to possess Fzoul as his avatar, then Bane got whacked, this then led to over a decade of disintegration of the Church of Bane. Many left to become followers of Cyric, then some turned to Xvim, and others likely turned to different deities. However, Kabarrath remained steady throughout. He didn't acknowledge the death of Bane, and seems to have kept those who followed him - or at least those in Mourktar - from falling into the same chaos.

Why hold firm? Why not jump ship to Xvim when he showed up on the scene? He had to know who Xvim was as he had been active in that region in the not-to-distant past.

I think your thoughts about the Cloak are very good. It makes sense that upon Bane's death some of his divine essence was trapped in the Cloak - much like Myrkul had some of his essence trapped in the Crown of Horns. It's very doubtful that Bane would admit, "Yeah, my arch-enemy Torm pwned me hard. Sorry loyal priest."

It's more like Bane - through the cloak - was telling Kabarrath that it was all a lie. That he wasn't dead, and that the rest of the church had fallen into dire heresy. If for no other reason than to preserve his own pride, and to use Kabarrath to try and find a way to return.

Since we don't know HOW Bane returned, just that one day, randomly - Xvim went POOF! My guess is that Bane used Kabarrath to accomplish that, and pave his way to subsume his son. This would also explain why he started using the green and black colors - Xvim's colors - likely on the orders of Bane.

Lore wise, Kabarrath and his church have largely been ignored - if not forgotten completely. However, canonically they're still the largest and most powerful of Bane's churches.

As a result, we now have to reconcile why Bane chose a loser like Fzoul to be his "personal Chosen Tyrant and infallible mortal representative" - basically his High Imperceptor - over someone like Kabarrath.

Perhaps even more importantly, we have to decide what Kabarrath would think about this... would he seek to reconcile with the Moonsea Banites? If he does, how does he handle the issue with them abandoning Bane and turning to other deities? What becomes his relationship to and with Fzoul?

It could easily be explained that Bane chose Fzoul because Mourktar had fallen under the (temporary) sway of Alasklerbanbastos, and Bane wanted someone who was independent of such influences. Also, with the faith of the churches of the Moonsea shattering worse than Humpty Dumpty he needed someone IN THAT region to try and put things back together again. So it may have been a pragmatic choice.

...and really, I don't think Kabarrath is dumb enough to argue with his deity. And if he did, he'd receive the standard, "DO NOT QUESTION ME YOU PATHETIC MORTAL!"

Then from the perspective of Kabarrath and those within his Church, Bane would not have "emerged from Xvim" - he would have murdered Xvim for leading the faith into heresy.

So I can see a reunification taking place, especially if Bane makes it clear to Kabarrath that he wants it to happen, but... I'm not sure it happened or not, or even if it -SHOULD- happen. I could go either way on it.

I'm also slightly biased because I think the Moonsea Banites - especially those who serve Fzoul - have been embarrassing to the faith. I don't think any of them deserve to be leaders, and a major reason I fully intend to have the priests of the Cloak establish a powerful theocracy in the area is because I think the Moonsea Banites suck.
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dazzlerdal
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Just an idea but maybe Bane chose Fzoul as his champion to increase strife (admittedly in his own church). But having two rival and strong churches face off against one another will be promoting strife and the competition could propel either of the two factions to achieve great things in his name.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 04 Jun 2013 :  13:33:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Thanks guys. I'm aware that I left Old Empires out, mostly because it didn't contain a lot of relevant information and everything was dated pre-Time of Troubles. Also, since the main focus of the narrative was on Mourktar and in particular the Church of the Black Lord's Cloak and it's leader, and neither the church nor Kabarrath were mentioned in Old Empires...

However, I did go back over Old Empires with a fine tooth comb, and managed to salvage some interesting pre-Time of Troubles lore. Also, I started taking some notes from Dreams of the Red Wizards and the Unapproachable East - all dealing with Banites in Thay. There are some interesting things panning out in that area that may be relevant.

I'm currently organizing all of that and more, and hope to have some additional lore and interesting possibilities involving the Red Wizards in a future post. I still need to go through Grand History and Powers and Pantheons as BadCatMan suggested, but I've already gathered the information involving Helyos and the Renegades from Gold & Glory - some of which also appears in the Old Empires.

Hopefully, I'll have it all put together soon in an easy to follow format.




Just a thought, when Bezantur was inundated by the tidal wave in 1369, its temple to Bane likely needed some aid. Could the church in Mourktar have gained some influence by sending said aid?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Aldrick
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Apologies for the delayed replies. Most of my energy has been focused on creating a 'Grand History' of the Old Empires, stretching back from when the sarrukh and the batrachi inhabited the region till present day. Once I've created a Master Timeline of the region, I'd like to create a narrative similar to what I did in my original post. Once I'm done, I think it'll be invaluable to anyone who wants to set a game in the Old Empires region. At the moment, I just got to the point where Imaskar has fallen; so I still have a long way to go. (Though I've learned A TON of new and obscure lore in starting this project, so it is totally worth it.)

So, with that said...

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Just an idea but maybe Bane chose Fzoul as his champion to increase strife (admittedly in his own church). But having two rival and strong churches face off against one another will be promoting strife and the competition could propel either of the two factions to achieve great things in his name.


This would have made sense prior to the Time of Troubles. However, despite what it says in Faiths and Pantheons, Bane is no longer the deity of strife. Cyric still holds the strife portfolio.

What I think is unclear about the entry in F&P, and why I think things could go either way, is that Bane's instructions seem to be focused on the Orthodox Church of Bane vs the Transformed Church of Bane divide. It's unclear if Bane meant for Fzoul to unite ALL Banites into a SINGLE hierarchy.

"Before the Time of Troubles, Bane's church was riven by internecine strife, divided into the Orthodox sect (commanded primarily by clerics) and the Transformed church (dominated by wizards). Bane himself encouraged this struggle, appreciating the value of dissension even when applied to his own servants. His long dormancy seems to have cleared his mind on this matter, however, as he has acted personally to eradicate these divisions, even going so far as to name Fzoul Chembryl, the ruler of Zhentil Keep, as his personal Chosen Tyrant and infallible mortal representative. The formerly fractious Banites have made common cause in vicious pogroms against those who had turned to Cyric after Bane's "death" and who have not returned to the fold; their increased cooperation can only lead to foul tidings for the rest of Faerun." -- Faiths and Pantheons, pg. 15 & 16

This is what I'm referring too. I think it's left open to debate whether or not the mandate Fzoul has been given extends outside of the Moonsea and the Orthodox and Transformed sects of the church. The focus of the text is clearly there, but... I'm interesting in hearing arguments as to what people think it means. Are all Banites now united under a single hierarchy, or are there still divisions within the church? If there are still divisions, what are the odds Kabarrath Telthaug remained independent after Bane's return? If Kabarrath rejoined the Moonsea Banites, how were their differences reconciled (as he clearly did not accept Bane's death, and continued to receive divine spells)?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just a thought, when Bezantur was inundated by the tidal wave in 1369, its temple to Bane likely needed some aid. Could the church in Mourktar have gained some influence by sending said aid?


No, but not for the reason you might think...

My belief is that the Priests of the Cloak are responsible for the spread of the faith of Bane into Thay, and perhaps throughout the entire region. Let me back my words up.

In my discussion with BadCatMan I wrote how Mourktar almost certainly existed prior to -150 DR, since it was named as one of the places suffering under oppressive taxes as a result of the wealth flowing into Unther from the fallen kingdoms of Narfell and Raumathar.

Here is my belief. I believe that Banite Pilgrims arrived at Mourktar in the very early days. It was likely a small fishing village at the time. This was likely around -325 DR; which is likely 33 years or so after Bane's ascension to divinity. It could be a bit later, perhaps as much as 50 to 70 years after his ascension, putting it around -311 DR or -288 DR. Either way, it makes it one of Bane's first temples, and it exists over a hundred years before the fall of Narfell and Raumathar.

This is important because as I am sure most people here know, after Narfell and Raumathar fell both Unther and Mulhorand sent people north. The northward expansion continued for well over one hundred years, and if you're sending people north to settle those lands - guess who goes with them, more often than not? Their religion. This means that Banites from the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak were most likely the first Banites to begin preaching the faith in what would eventually become Thay.

To add additional evidence to this fact, in the Unapproachable East, Curoz Palblatis is named as the "leader of the largest temple of Bane in Thay." This temple is located in Escalant, which is three to five days by ship from Mourktar. If not for the water, this would be walking distance.

Further north along the same river Escalant sits on is the city of Amruthar, and it is here that we find the only named temple in Thay - the House of the Black Lord - which is led by Tharek, a half-fiend cleric of Bane.

The other important Banite mention in the Unapproachable East involves the tharch of Tyraturos which is ruled by Tharchion Dimon. He was a cleric of Waukeen, but after the Time of Troubles he converted to Bane.

Outside of these mentions the Unapproachable East tells us that the worship of Bane has a long tradition in Thay, but that some churches suffered after the Time of Troubles - during which many converted to Cyric. Thay now has "strong and well-organized churches of both Bane and Cyric". The only Church of Cyric that is listed, however, exists in Bezantur. It isn't even listed in the text - it's marked as #9 on the map on page 167 of the Unapproachable East.

I think it is wise to conclude that "the House of Cyric" is the site of the former Temple of Bane. They may have built another temple since that time, or may have had others in the city, but it's likely that was their main one.

Prior to the Time of Troubles Bane had Temples in "Eltabbar, Bezantur, Tyraturos, Pyarados, and Surthay, and major shrines in the ruins of Delhumide and on the Aldor. There was also a private shrine in the Citadel for the Tharchion. The highest ranking priest of Bane was located in Bezantur." -- Dreams of the Red Wizards, pg. 49 (more or less a direct quote)

Thus here is my belief. The Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak is one of the earliest temples built to honor Bane in the Realms, founded within at least 100 years after his ascension to divinity. They house one of the holiest artifacts held by the faith; the Black Lord's Cloak, a cloak warn by Bane himself prior to his ascension, and it is from that artifact that the temple derives its name.

The priests of the Cloak (as they are called) are responsible for spreading the faith of Bane throughout the region, and Mourktar subsequently has been seen as an important holy site by many of the faith. However, over time the influence of the temple has waxed and waned, at times growing and at others diminishing, largely based on the particular leader of the temple at the time.

Kabarrath Telthaug became the High Priest of the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak some years before the Time of Troubles. Under his leadership the Temple's influence once again started to spread, eventually becoming the most powerful and largest Temple of Bane in all of Faerun.

As the Moonsea Banites disintegrated into an open schism between the Orthodox and Transformed church, the priests of the Cloak watched from afar - aghast at how their brethren across the Sea of Fallen Stars had mismanaged things so poorly. For this and other reasons, Kabarrath declared himself independent of the Banite hierarchy just days before the Time of Troubles. He had the support and backing of not only the clergy of Bane in Mourktar, but throughout the entire southern region and north into Thay.

They were awaiting for Bane to acknowledge him as High Imperceptor... then the Time of Troubles hit and Bane died. Chaos was driven throughout the church. The clergy of Thay fell into open heresy and rebellion, many switching to Cyric, and later some to Xvim...

...but not Kabarrath or the priests of the Cloak in Mourktar. Those who Kabarrath had the most control over stayed firm, and declared that Bane lived. They declared that those who declared Bane dead were committing an act of heresy, and should (and would) be punished accordingly. Those who lost their ability to channel divine power (which never impacted the priests of the Cloak) were explained away by as "individuals who had lost their faith, and were being justly punished by Bane."

Little was it known that a significant portion of Bane's divine essence - upon being slain - was shifted into the Cloak within the Temple. The cloak was speaking to Kabarrath and the other clergy, instructing them on what they had to do in order to deal with "Cyric the Prince of Lies" and "Xvim the Treacherous Godson". These plans unfolded to completion on Midwinter night of 1372 DR, when Bane arose to slay his treacherous son and reclaim what rightfully belonged to him.

Over the next several years, those who followed Xvim (and even some who had moved to worship Cyric) moved back into the fold of Bane. By this point, the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak was seen as the center of faith in the south; much as Mulmaster had been seen as the center of the faith in the Moonsea.

Now, the question is once again raised... does Kabarrath rejoin with the Moonsea Banites, effectively acknowledging Fzoul as the leader of the faith? Or does Kabarrath consider himself the true leader of the faith, and Fzoul a weak pretender?

Either way, it's rather clear that Kabarrath has connections with the Red Wizards, likely through other Banite clergy located in Thay. There are two key references to that in the text.

"It has been said (accurately) that only the presence of this temple [the Black Lord's Cloak], which grew to rule the entire city following the death of King Theris and the subsequent assassination of his successor, prevented the more ambitious Red Wizards of Thay from abandoning all plans to assault Rashemen and instead establishing a beachhead in Threskel from which to attack decadent Unther and fractious Chessenta." - Faiths and Avatars, pg. 39

"By the end of the Year of Rogue Dragons (1373 DR), Mulhorand had conquered all of Unther except the city of Messemprar,and its armies threatened to lay siege to that city once the rainy season (winter) had passed despite frenzied attacks by small flights of dragons from the Riders to the Sky mountains. Early in the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR), two events changed the thrust of this war. First, the Banite templars of the [Black Lord's Cloak] in Mourktar marched forth to the defense of Messemprar, reinforcing the besieged defenders of that city. Early successes by the Banites were attributed to a massive influx of magical weaponry from Thay sold to the church of Bane at cut-rate prices." - Power of Faerun, pg. 28

These two passages seem to show - perhaps not an alliance between the Banites of Mourktar and the Red Wizards - but at least an understanding and a willingness to cooperate. The best explanation for this *IS* the importance and power of the Temple of the Black Lord's Cloak in the region, along with its long legacy and heritage.
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Lord Bane
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Posted - 04 Jun 2013 :  21:26:13  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When Bane declares Fzoul his chosen, that means all of the faith of Bane are to follow his will, including Kabarrath. Not following the decree of Bane is defying his will and therefore a death sentence. Kabarrath owes as every follower of Bane, especially Fzoul, their power to the deity of tyranny. If Kabarrath does not obey his master, then he loses that power and someone else of the temple takes over, so in order to keep controlling the old empires region, he has to fall in line or be replaced. Just like Darkhope controls the efforts in the Lake of Steam region and Fzoul the Moonsea, all are pieces of Bane´s divine will to conquer Fearun as first step to complete dominion over Toril and then onwards. Yet only Fzoul is the head while Darkhope and Karrabath are leaders in the other regions, only second in command in Bane´s efforts but still some of the most powerfull followers of the dread deity.

I do agree with your interpretation of Mourktar and the banite faith and your hypothesis that they may be the reason for the spreading of Bane´s faith in Thay sounds plausible to me.
As for the Red Wizards of Thay and them selling weapons to the forces defending Messemprar surely does have something to do with the temples influence but also we must not forget that Mulhorand is the ancient enemy of Thay and anyone fighting Mulhorand is favorable to a degree the books of the Red Wizards. This means a win-win situation for Thay, they can sell goods and their enemies get weakened while they can strengthen the ties with Mourktar as power in the region. On the other hand it is vital for Mourktar to stop mulhorandi expansionism or be swallowed by them aswell as i doubt they settle for only Unther when they can pick Threskel aswell with further potential to expand into Chessenta and thus they join the war which also means they come into good graces with the untherian population by aiding them in their struggle against mulhorandi aggression, thus inevitably also increasing the Black Lords faith´s sway into Unther and Unther hates Mulhorand, hate that can be harnessed by Bane to fuel his power should they be converted to his believe. That is geopolitics with a theological touch and everything is connected.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 04 Jun 2013 :  23:16:40  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

When Bane declares Fzoul his chosen, that means all of the faith of Bane are to follow his will, including Kabarrath. Not following the decree of Bane is defying his will and therefore a death sentence. Kabarrath owes as every follower of Bane, especially Fzoul, their power to the deity of tyranny. If Kabarrath does not obey his master, then he loses that power and someone else of the temple takes over, so in order to keep controlling the old empires region, he has to fall in line or be replaced. Just like Darkhope controls the efforts in the Lake of Steam region and Fzoul the Moonsea, all are pieces of Bane´s divine will to conquer Fearun as first step to complete dominion over Toril and then onwards. Yet only Fzoul is the head while Darkhope and Karrabath are leaders in the other regions, only second in command in Bane´s efforts but still some of the most powerfull followers of the dread deity.


I would agree with all of that, except I don't understand the reason Bane made the choice of Fzoul over someone like Kabarrath. Granted, I'm not terribly informed on the Banites in the Moonsea region, mostly because what I *DO* know doesn't impress me much, and makes them look embarrassing.

So is there a particular reason Fzoul was chosen over someone more worthy, or did it just boil down to the fact that the novels focus more on that region and he's a more recognizable name? (In other words, did he become Chosen for anything in particular besides designer fiat?)

It's not really a big deal if he did, because I can go either way in my Realms. If I decide to go with Kabarrath rejoining the hierarchy, and acknowledging Fzoul, it creates a situation where Kabarrath can be definitively named the Dark Lord's Hand in the Southeast, Dread Imperceptor of the Old and New Empires.

However, I eventually intend for Kabarrath to forge a heresy (though one I think would be favorable to Bane); where he begins to declare certain deities subservient to the Dark Lord. In essence he will begin forging what people will call "the Dark Pantheon". The top three deities will be Loviatar, Tiamat, and Bane - collectively known as "the Dark Triad". Loviatar will be considered his consort (as proposed in 4th Edition), and Tiamat will be considered his "steed". I plan for something to take place between the priests of the Cloak, Tchazzar, and the Church of Tiamat in the region. (As well as having Alasklerbanbastos brought under heel... permanently.)

This is being done to contrast Bane with his arch-enemy Torm, who will ascend to become the head of the Triad, and Bahamut will join it to take his old place. Thus, putting them in perfect opposition.

Bane vs Torm
Loviatar vs Ilmater
Tiamat vs Bahamut

And below them would exist a host of "lesser" and "demi" deities. Of course, this would be considered a heresy by many churches outside of the Old Empires region. This is the direction I intend to head in with Kabarrath - just as the Dark Lord's mortal faithful rule over lesser men, so too does Bane in the heavens rule over the lesser gods.

I don't plan for the Moonsea Banites to survive, at least not in their current incarnation. Fzoul is definitely going to bite the dust.

The only reason I am putting so much effort into this at the moment, is because I want to make sure that everything flows forward logically, and that I'm not leaving anything awesome out by accident. I'm trying to remain 100% canon up until the ToT, and at least 90% canon after the ToT (changing things that I just can't stand, or fit my Realms better.)

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

I do agree with your interpretation of Mourktar and the banite faith and your hypothesis that they may be the reason for the spreading of Bane´s faith in Thay sounds plausible to me.
As for the Red Wizards of Thay and them selling weapons to the forces defending Messemprar surely does have something to do with the temples influence but also we must not forget that Mulhorand is the ancient enemy of Thay and anyone fighting Mulhorand is favorable to a degree the books of the Red Wizards. This means a win-win situation for Thay, they can sell goods and their enemies get weakened while they can strengthen the ties with Mourktar as power in the region. On the other hand it is vital for Mourktar to stop mulhorandi expansionism or be swallowed by them aswell as i doubt they settle for only Unther when they can pick Threskel aswell with further potential to expand into Chessenta and thus they join the war which also means they come into good graces with the untherian population by aiding them in their struggle against mulhorandi aggression, thus inevitably also increasing the Black Lords faith´s sway into Unther and Unther hates Mulhorand, hate that can be harnessed by Bane to fuel his power should they be converted to his believe. That is geopolitics with a theological touch and everything is connected.


I agree with that entirely, and it was my thoughts as well. It's the reason I'm not sure if I can say that they're allies. They are certainly working together, and currently have a favorable relationship, but is it simply a result of them uniting against a common enemy?
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 05 Jun 2013 :  07:33:47  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Going back a bit:

Bane didn't possess Fzoul as his avatar, did he? He took a guy named Trannus Kialton of Zhentil Keep. Bane may not have had much choice about where he went, as lots of deities wound up in odd places during the Time of Troubles. Besides, he wanted to be close to his Tablets, I guess.

And why choose Fzoul as his Chosen? Politics, of course. Because the Moonsea and Dalelands are so often the focus of Mystra's Chosen, it would make sense for Bane to keep a personal eye on things there. Plus, it's a good way to keep a close eye on Fzoul, who must have followed, what, three gods? Meanwhile, Kabarrath seems reliable enough to be allowed a free hand down south. That's the problem of being competent and indispensable.

Would Kabarrath bow to Fzoul? He's already surrendered to Alasklerbanbastos, then subverted his three blue dragon overlords. If he's as great as you say, then he doesn't seem to be a man overburdened by pride. He'd bend the knee, get it over with, then get back to work amassing power, authority, and influence.

I had another idea about Bane, Xvim, and the Cloak. Perhaps Xvim arrived at Kabarrath's doorstep, demanding the Mourktar Banites declare their allegiance to their new god, only for Kabarrath to invite the Godson to prove his power and/or to adopt his father's regalia. He even changes his colours to court Xvim. So Xvim takes the Cloak and dons it, literally assuming his father's mantle? Then the vampiric cloak drains the life and power from Xvim, leaving that smoking husk, feeding the hungry vestige of Bane living on in the Cloak. The tyrannical father draining the spirit from his beaten son. Then out of the ashes emerges the reinvigorated Bane. Bane thanks Kabarrath for all he's done, and they plot together.

So Kabarrath accepts Fzoul as Bane bids, for now. And the Cloak's gone, so he renames his temple to the Black Lord's Altar as a direct affront to Mulmaster and the real High Imperceptor there. Because Kabarrath knows who Bane really owes his life to: Kabarrath Telthaug, three times forced to submit and three times remaining true (unlike Fzoul) and still amassing power; who stayed the course and kept his god's faith alive and pure; who kept his god alive and helped him rise again. The true Chosen of Bane. :D

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Edited by - BadCatMan on 05 Jun 2013 07:38:43
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Aldrick
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Posted - 05 Jun 2013 :  09:51:59  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Going back a bit:

Bane didn't possess Fzoul as his avatar, did he? He took a guy named Trannus Kialton of Zhentil Keep. Bane may not have had much choice about where he went, as lots of deities wound up in odd places during the Time of Troubles. Besides, he wanted to be close to his Tablets, I guess.


Technically speaking, it was both. Trannus Kialton, a minor priest of Bane, was his first avatar. However, it was destroyed during his assault on Shadowdale. Myrkul, however, was able to assist Bane in getting a second avatar. Fzoul was dying after the battle and was given a choice - to die, or to let Bane take his body and to live anew. He decided to let Bane take his body, and thus became Bane's second avatar.

When Bane took the form of Trannus Kialton, he transformed it using magic into a hideous form meant to frighten people. He did it specifically to try and hide that he had been cast down by Ao, and did not possess his full divine abilities.

However, he did not transform his appearance as Fzoul (at Myrkul's urging). Thus, the only "recognizable" avatar Bane held during the Time of Troubles was Fzoul.

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

And why choose Fzoul as his Chosen? Politics, of course. Because the Moonsea and Dalelands are so often the focus of Mystra's Chosen, it would make sense for Bane to keep a personal eye on things there. Plus, it's a good way to keep a close eye on Fzoul, who must have followed, what, three gods? Meanwhile, Kabarrath seems reliable enough to be allowed a free hand down south. That's the problem of being competent and indispensable.

Would Kabarrath bow to Fzoul? He's already surrendered to Alasklerbanbastos, then subverted his three blue dragon overlords. If he's as great as you say, then he doesn't seem to be a man overburdened by pride. He'd bend the knee, get it over with, then get back to work amassing power, authority, and influence.


This is true. I may have let my dislike of the incompetent Moonsea Banites cloud my judgement. Kabarrath does seem like the patient sort, a man who is willing and able to let long term plans slowly unfold.

Besides, leading the entire faith of Bane *WOULD* distract him from the matters he needs to attend to in the south. So, the grunt work gets dumped on Fzoul, and Kabarrath gets formally recognized officially as the voice of the Dark Lord in the south, and Mourktar the center of the faith there. This allows him to more-or-less keep his independence from Fzoul, even though he is his technical superior.

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

I had another idea about Bane, Xvim, and the Cloak. Perhaps Xvim arrived at Kabarrath's doorstep, demanding the Mourktar Banites declare their allegiance to their new god, only for Kabarrath to invite the Godson to prove his power and/or to adopt his father's regalia. He even changes his colours to court Xvim. So Xvim takes the Cloak and dons it, literally assuming his father's mantle? Then the vampiric cloak drains the life and power from Xvim, leaving that smoking husk, feeding the hungry vestige of Bane living on in the Cloak. The tyrannical father draining the spirit from his beaten son. Then out of the ashes emerges the reinvigorated Bane. Bane thanks Kabarrath for all he's done, and they plot together.

So Kabarrath accepts Fzoul as Bane bids, for now. And the Cloak's gone, so he renames his temple to the Black Lord's Altar as a direct affront to Mulmaster and the real High Imperceptor there. Because Kabarrath knows who Bane really owes his life to: Kabarrath Telthaug, three times forced to submit and three times remaining true (unlike Fzoul) and still amassing power; who stayed the course and kept his god's faith alive and pure; who kept his god alive and helped him rise again. The true Chosen of Bane. :D


I like this, although there is another alternative explanation. It could be that Kabarrath believed that Bane never died, and the rumors from the north were lies. Xvim could have played upon this and used Kabarrath to help him ascend to take his father's mantle while shedding his old identity. This plays off the theory that Wooly favors, where Bane didn't really return - it's just Xvim pretending to be his father.

Personally, I like keeping it somewhat ambiguous, because I'd like to have some Xvim followers still running around using that heresy - that Bane is really Xvim.

I simply imagined what happened as Kabarrath being ordered to send out agents to locate powerful artifacts that had been crafted by the faith of Bane. Then these artifacts - along with the Cloak - were used in a powerful ritual to (in their minds) "murder the Godson, the pretender who attempts to usurp the Dark Lord's Throne".

Thus, in their mind they assisted Bane in murdering Xvim. In the minds of most faithful to Xvim, Bane burst forth from him, and the belief that he was simply a sentient cocoon for Bane's divine essence.

Kabarrath could be right in part, in that he helped slay Xvim. However, he would be wrong about Bane's death. Alternatively, he could be wrong and Xvim could have been using him to assume Bane's mantle.

I prefer to leave it ambiguous, simply so there is room for division and disagreement. Thus, I'd like for things to be done in such a way as both arguments could plausibly be true - it just comes down to who you believe and what perspective you hold on events.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Jun 2013 :  12:15:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The idea that Bane's religion came from Untherite settlers is intriguing, but it does bear somewhat of a problem. Gilgeam is in essence the Untherite god of Tyrants. For Bane's religion to come in and usurp that portfolio within the homeland (literally) of said deity is somewhat on the verge of unbelievable. However, if Bane's religion didn't sprout up in the area until Threskel won its freedom away from Unther, then the people of Threskel who enjoyed the tyranny of Gilgeam may have turned to the next closest god. At that time, Hoar/Assuran of the three thunders may have also made his leap into the Faerunian pantheon, as we know that he's in both. Just wondering, do we have a date that Threskel won its independence?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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hashimashadoo
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Posted - 05 Jun 2013 :  12:50:04  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure that it's ever been mentioned. Only two settlements of note in an otherwise sparsely-populated, relatively small territory. Not much lore has been written on the place.

Although not explicitly stated - Dragons of Faerun hints that it gained independence before the Chessentan rebellion, though I've always counted it as having gained its independence during the rebellion (as that's when House Jedea took over) but because of it being so far from other centres of power, it wasn't governed by either Chessentia or Unther and thus a couple of petty dynasties of kings decided to attempt to rule what they could - at least until the coming of Jaxanaedegor.

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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 05 Jun 2013 12:54:46
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Aldrick
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Posted - 05 Jun 2013 :  13:44:10  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The idea that Bane's religion came from Untherite settlers is intriguing, but it does bear somewhat of a problem. Gilgeam is in essence the Untherite god of Tyrants. For Bane's religion to come in and usurp that portfolio within the homeland (literally) of said deity is somewhat on the verge of unbelievable. However, if Bane's religion didn't sprout up in the area until Threskel won its freedom away from Unther, then the people of Threskel who enjoyed the tyranny of Gilgeam may have turned to the next closest god. At that time, Hoar/Assuran of the three thunders may have also made his leap into the Faerunian pantheon, as we know that he's in both. Just wondering, do we have a date that Threskel won its independence?


On the final part, I can answer that specifically and accurately. Mourktar declared it's independence from Unther in 823 DR. Thay was not officially a sovereign and independent nation until 922 DR - nearly 100 years after Mourktar's independence.

However, things are a bit more complicated. First of all, Gilgeam was not the first deity to rule Unther. Enlil was the leader of the Untheric Pantheon, but willingly abdicated in -734 DR in favor of Gilgeam who was his son. This marks the first year on the Untheric Calendar.

It should be noted that Gilgeam was never the deity of tyranny, though he did eventually become a tyrant. He was the deity of strength, athletic prowess, the sky, battle, cities, and the land of Unther. He also was once known to believe in honor and justice. So he did not begin as the deity we eventually knew him as; it was something that he was transformed into over time.

Unther began to slowly disintegrate after the Orcgate Wars that began in -1076 DR and the eventual rise of Narfell and Raumathar. It's slow decline was sped up when regions of the empire began to declare independence, starting with Delthuntle and Laothkund in 482 DR, and it's fate became more or less sealed in 929 DR when the Chessentan alliance drove the armies of Unther back beyond the Riders to the Sky Mountains - setting its modern day borders during the Time of Troubles.

My guess is that Gilgeam became more and more tyrannical as the empire crumbled, and toward the end he became delusional as well. When the Time of Troubles arrived it was basically the tyranny of Gilgeam and his priests alone that held Unther together. The people hated Gilgeam and his priests, and he didn't even receive placating worship like Talos or Umberlee. The people of Unther rejoiced when he was slain, and promptly set about killing as many of his priests - and sacking every temple and shrine - that they could get their hands on.

Also, I envision Threskel as being considered more of a backwater by the people of Unther. Most of the culture and power in Unther centered around Unthalass, which was much further to the south. It's likely that the Banites there were tolerated, in much the same way Gilgeam tolerated the worship of Ishtar and Ramman. His worship likely never really expanded beyond Mourktar into Unther proper aside from perhaps a few small cults of little significance. So long as his worship was kept in Unther's backwater, what reason would Gilgeam have to make a direct move against the priests? (Keeping in mind that Gilgeam's descent into tyrannical madness was slow, and likely really only truly manifested itself in its worst form after Mourktar had already declared its independence.)

Most of the spread of Bane likely was focused in the conquered regions that would eventually become part of Thay, Chessenta, and Aglarond. Hoar's strong presence in Mourktar is also likely responsible for the spread of his faith into areas such as Altumbel as a result of such conquests.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Jun 2013 :  13:55:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

I'm not sure that it's ever been mentioned. Only two settlements of note in an otherwise sparsely-populated, relatively small territory. Not much lore has been written on the place.

Although not explicitly stated - Dragons of Faerun hints that it gained independence before the Chessentan rebellion, though I've always counted it as having gained its independence during the rebellion (as that's when House Jedea took over) but because of it being so far from other centres of power, it wasn't governed by either Chessentia or Unther and thus a couple of petty dynasties of kings decided to attempt to rule what they could - at least until the coming of Jaxanaedegor.



Ok, just to put some dates to things. So, Chessenta broke away from Unther in 929 DR, so that's a lot of time difference between the fall of Narfell/Raumathar (in fact, around the time Chessenta was breaking away from Unther, Thay was breaking away from Mulhorand). Any chance you could post the references you speak of from Dragons of Faerun (not at home, or I'd search my copy)?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Aldrick
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Posted - 05 Jun 2013 :  13:59:28  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

I'm not sure that it's ever been mentioned. Only two settlements of note in an otherwise sparsely-populated, relatively small territory. Not much lore has been written on the place.

Although not explicitly stated - Dragons of Faerun hints that it gained independence before the Chessentan rebellion, though I've always counted it as having gained its independence during the rebellion (as that's when House Jedea took over) but because of it being so far from other centres of power, it wasn't governed by either Chessentia or Unther and thus a couple of petty dynasties of kings decided to attempt to rule what they could - at least until the coming of Jaxanaedegor.


That is correct. Unther bankrupted their treasury after Narfell and Raumathar fell when they attempted to expand northward into the regions that would eventually become known as Aglarond and Thay. To try and recover they began to levee EXTREMELY oppressive taxes, which ultimately led to rebellion. The first rebellions were ruthlessly crushed, but then entire chunks of the empire began to declare independence.

It began in 482 DR with Delthuntle and Laothkund declaring their independence, and they were followed by Teth and Nethra in 504 DR. Unther responded by launching a long, costly, and bloody military campaign against the city-states which had declared their independence. They ultimately failed to retake them, and in 679 DR they recognized their independence. This officially ended the Second Untheric Empire.

The second wave of city-states to declare their freedom began with Mourktar in 823 DR, and this was followed by the region that would become known as Chessenta rising up (under Tchazzar) in 929 DR to push Unther's borders back beyond the Rider's of the Sky Mountains. This was basically where Unther's border remained until the Time of Troubles.

Then Tchazzar dies in 1018 DR (though the rumor is that he ascended to divinity), and this is followed up with Mordulkin defying the king of Cimbar by declaring independence from Chessenta in 1117 DR. This ultimately led to the break-up of Chessenta into their modern day squabbling city-states.

Just for reference Thayd began his rebellion in -1087 DR before being put down in -1081 DR. The Red Wizards would not become truly independent for nearly 1,000 years - when in 922 DR they finally threw off the yoke of Mulhorand, which marked the end of the Second Mulhorand Empire. The Zulkirate was not established until 1030 DR - over 100 years after their independence. By this point Chessenta had already been established as free and independent, and Tchazzar had been dead for 12 years, and Mourktar had been free and independent for 207 years.

Edited by - Aldrick on 05 Jun 2013 14:10:10
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hashimashadoo
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Posted - 05 Jun 2013 :  14:13:25  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, that explains it. I was searching my books for instances of Threskel, not Mourktar. Thanks Aldrik.

Sleyvas, the regional history of Threskel is on p72 of Dragons of Faerun. That's where I got what I wrote from.

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Aldrick
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Just as a helpful side note, the relevant timelines can be found in the following source books:

Old Empires (pg. 5 & 6) - This was the source book I was using when I was writing the above, but it's not my favorite. The events listed don't have a lot of detail to them. It's not very helpful for context.

Lost Empires of Faerun (pg. 60 - 63) - This is my favorite time line for the Old Empires. It actually begins in -8350 DR with the Imaskari tribes settling what would eventually become known as the Raurin Desert. A lot of the events have more context and detail.

Unapproachable East (pg. 163) - This is one of the best timelines for Thay, obviously. It's better than the Dreams of the Red Wizard's timeline for the same reason Lost Empires of Faerun is better than the Old Empire's timeline.

The Shining South (varies) - There is a handful of useful timeline lore here relating to the Old Empires, for example mentions of the First Coin War between Mulhorand and Durpar in 317 DR. (It's important to keep in mind that this region was equally impacted by the fall of Imaskar.)

Grand History of the Realms (entire book) - This should go without saying. However, the only downside to the GHotR is that it can be difficult to find what you need or want unless you know roughly what year something important happened. However, it is an essential source (even the sole source) for pretty much everything post 1372 DR.

I'm currently in the process of building a master timeline for the region using Grand History of the Realms and the above source books. I hope to be able to write a pre-Spellplague narrative of the region and post it on the forums once I'm complete. A narrative that will stretch all the way back to the Days of Thunder, as both the sarrukh and the batrachi had a huge influence on this region - the fallen batrachi empire seems to have heavily influenced Imaskar, at least in terms of the type of magic they studied and used.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 07 Jun 2013 :  03:32:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I must commend you on your research. This is an area of high interest to me as well, so when and where things happened long ago become very important. So based on the below, probably the banites went into the areas which will become the "wizard's reach". They may have even fomented the rebellion.... I can buy it more with those nations rebelling in 482 that maybe the temple in Mourktar came to fruition within a century or two earlier.

I wonder, do we have anything that shows that Unther sent their "unwanted" to these new colonies (prisoners, etc...)? Maybe people found worshipping "forbidden religions" were sent north?

Also the part about Gilgeam turning into a tyrant AFTER the various rebellions.... I'm kind of wondering, any chance Bane "infected" Gilgeam in some way? Could the black lord's cloak have been involved? Just a thought.

"It began in 482 DR with Delthuntle and Laothkund declaring their independence, and they were followed by Teth and Nethra in 504 DR. Unther responded by launching a long, costly, and bloody military campaign against the city-states which had declared their independence. They ultimately failed to retake them, and in 679 DR they recognized their independence. This officially ended the Second Untheric Empire.

The second wave of city-states to declare their freedom began with Mourktar in 823 DR, and this was followed by the region that would become known as Chessenta rising up (under Tchazzar) in 929 DR to push Unther's borders back beyond the Rider's of the Sky Mountains. This was basically where Unther's border remained until the Time of Troubles."

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
335 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2013 :  14:16:40  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, I forgot that bit about Bane taking Fzoul.

If you're interested, I found what may be the earliest mention of Mourktar. In Secrets of the Magister, page 31, Azuth offered the position of Magister to one Faerndel of Mourktar — who turned it down — in 241 DR.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
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