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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35447 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  15:08:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I note your assumption that 5E is being shaped by Ed and RA Salvatore in the sense that what we'll get will be based on their grand plan to save the Realms. Big assumption.

-- George Krashos




I do want to repeat something, here... While Krash is right in saying this is an assumption, I'll also note that Ed told me he was excited about what was coming -- and this was in an email conversation, between he and I. There was certainly no need for false optimism or toeing the company line, there, and he's previously shared with me a couple of things that clearly show he's not a corporate sycophant. I believe he is genuinely excited about it, and that's enough to convince me.

It does not make me happy to know that some of the changes of 4E will still be there -- my personal preference, which I will not argue about in this thread -- would be to reset back to the end of the 3E era or even better, the end of the 2E era. That said, I'm hoping that WotC has learned from its mistakes, and I'm more than willing to see if the wonder of the 1E and 2E Realms can be recaptured.

Ed is all aboard for the 5E Realms. I'm riding along with him.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35447 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  15:26:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I do feel they are connected to the giant skull floating in Realmspace, and the (original) shape of the SoFS. Ed has always said that deeper secrets were right there in front of us... I guess I just haven't put together enough clues.



Even as a Spelljammer fan, I'm not attaching any real significance to non-FR lore. I, personally, don't see any reason to think that the Skull of the Void (or any other astronomicals not described in Realmslore) has any connection to the deeper secrets Ed has woven into the setting. Other than Selūne and her Tears, I think pretty much everything in that book was spun out of thin air, to fill pagecount -- and I even question the lore on Selūne, too. I'm not bashing the book, mind you, it's one of my fave SJ supplements (second only to Lost Ships) -- I just think that it was written for another setting and doesn't have anything to do with the Realms itself.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10760 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  18:54:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Who's to say the Tears didn't go 'elsewhere' for awhile?

They may have been on vacation/holiday for few milenia over in Abeir.

But seriously, they may have been created in the disant past, and then hidden, either with some sort of invisibility or moving them someplace else (or simply making them 'out of phase' with the rest of Realmspace... just like Abeir). Then something occurred around 4800 years ago that made them reappear. When did all that crap go down with the Imaskari? Maybe its somehow related to either the Godwall or the arrival of the Pharonic (and other) pantheon in FR.

Just because some KT astronomer reported something 4800 years ago doesn't mean that thats when they were first created. They could have had a similar illusion cast over them as Selune had.




That's a good assessment. I don't like the idea of throwing out lore versus trying to fit it in if possible. How about we try this on for size and you guys blow bullet holes in it. So, the ice moon named Zotha was hurled down by Asgorath. Ao then jumped in and twinned the world. When he did so, the "body" of "Zotha" and the "leftovers" aka the tears went over to Abeir. Ao then constructed a new moon for Toril, and this moon became Selune.

Then something happened 4800 years ago (well, probably roughly 4900 years ago according to current realms calendar... basically somewhere within say 60 years of -3440 DR in either direction.), and the destroyed moon "shifted" back into phase with Toril. Maybe it had something to do with all the Couatl's dying in Chult. Maybe it had to do with the Netherese and their war with Thaeravel, land of alabaster towers. Hell, maybe it has to do with the sea elves in Seros and its something that "surfacers" know nothing about.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10760 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  19:05:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Just because some KT astronomer reported something 4800 years ago doesn't mean that thats when they were first created. They could have had a similar illusion cast over them as Selune had.


I think that's a good and easy way to reconcile things. It's reported in Realms products I believe that Selune has an illusion cast over her. So this part of Spelljammer lore did cross over into Realms products.

We could speculate that the tears also had an illusion cast over them as well (making them invisible to Toril). Then something happened 4800ish years ago that broke that illusion, causing them to be revealed.

This solves things very nicely.

EDIT: I just wanted to add, that this easily solves the problem... so long as we don't find lore that talks about the Tears being visible prior to 4800ish years ago. I wouldn't be shocked if there is some lore like that somewhere, considering I'm very certain that they've been around for a VERY long time.




This is a possible solution, but it doesn't easily solve it, since the myth also states that the appearance also played havoc with the ecosystem. However, wouldn't take much to define something where the spell which created the illusion also removed their gravitational effect somehow. Easier solution would be that they were out of phase for some reason, but that doesn't go with the illusion over Selune.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10760 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  19:08:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I think people are missing the far bigger and more interesting question. Let's not get distracted by conflicting dates in the lore.

This is something that I think most definitely stretches all the way back to Ed's original Realms, and certainly all the way to 1E. Knowing Ed as we do, I'm rather certain that he knew what formed the Sea of Fallen Star's and why... we know that dragons appeared on Toril shortly after the Tearfall.

These are the questions that we should be asking: Were there dragon eggs in that frozen moon? When part of it crashed into Toril creating the Sea of Fallen Stars, did it cause these dragon eggs to hatch? If the eggs were in the moon why were they there? Who put them there?

There are so many interesting questions about how dragons first appeared on Toril. Imagine the possibilities of there being more eggs of the first dragons still stored in the Tears of Selune. Then remember the Rain of Fire in 1373 DR.

quote:
Marpenoth 26: One of the larger rocks comprising the Tears of Selūne inexplicably moves much closer to Toril, causing a total solar eclipse over much of the Inner Sea. This rogue tear remained motionless over Toril for nearly a day before plummeting again. As it entered the atmosphere, Selune's tear separated into five large chunks, each cutting a flaming path through the sky. Those chunks then broke apart into thousands of smaller pieces. This event, witnessed by tens of thousands, became known as the Rain of Fire and was seen as an ill omen by many.


Could it be possible that among the debris of that falling tear were a small handful of dragon eggs... and that now there are a handful of "true dragon" eggs laying around... or perhaps more interestingly what if they hatched and there are now a handful of "true dragons" roaming Toril once again in some isolated part of the continent?

This is all speculation, obviously, but think of the cool implications of the answers to these questions.



Interesting point as well.... did Asgorath "rape" Zotha? Was she then "filled with eggs of dragons". There could be a really good backstory here.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10760 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  19:12:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OOO, and did Zotha become an ice moon because all the heat was sucked out of "her" and into red dragon eggs? Did the "rape" itself kill her? Did her "death" cause her to fall out of orbit and crash into Toril?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2013 :  20:02:00  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would point out that Zotha was male and Asgorath was female. (I know it sounds totally backward.)

Laughably there is another source that refers to Asgorath as male, even though every other source I've seen so far refers to her as female.

---

Here is some more interesting lore on Asgorath. Like all the other lore I've found so far mentioning her by name, it's written by a non-reliable narrator.

quote:
...

Like the mighty dragons, the small inhabitants of Darastrixhurthi had been spawned from the bloodline of Asgorath, the World-Shaper. Unlike their dragon progenitors, however, the kobolds reproduced at a fantastic rate, causing their population to grow rapidly. Many even mingled with their chromatic dragon masters, who viewed the offspring of these unions as a means to guide and control the dragonspawn. Darastrixhurthi's most elite defenders grew dragon wings and worked together in teams known as wings (or urds, in Draconic). Over time, the members of the urds established a caste system that raised them above their land bound kin in Darastrixhurthi.

...

When the World-Shaper saw the rage unfold and realized the true extent of the destruction his children had wrought, he felt the need to make restitution, despite the innocence of the dragons responsible. So he decided to give the first of the dragonspawn another chance by raising Kurtulmak to godhood. That tale is well known among kobold adepts, but few know that the elite urds were saved by one of their own.

...

Upon his ascension, Kurtulmak learned of Kuraulyek's perfidy and its near-genocidal results, and he vowed revenge on the cowardly urd leader. But to protect the remaining first of the dragonspawn, Asgorath also raised Kuraulyek, the First of the Urd, who promptly fled from Kurtulmak. Eventually, Kuraulyek hid somewhere among the Barrens of Doom and Despair, where he found a deep cave infested with fiendish dire bats. There, in that plane's gloomy Underdark, he has hidden ever since, living in abject fear of Kurtulmak’s wrath.

...



Yes, that's the one that refers to Asgorath as male. It's from the Grand History of the Realms, page 9. There is obviously much more written there - those are just the parts Asgorath are mentioned.

quote:
...

In the desperate hope that another of Asgorath's children might chance upon my remains and seek what I have found, I now reveal my most precious piece of knowledge: The Hills of the Seven Lost Gods are not what they first seem. Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought. My ancestors tried to focus the Weave into a weapon of unparalleled might that could shatter the Drifting Stars into clouds of rubble in the heavens above. But they scored only a glancing blow on the moon that circles our world, leaving only a string of tears and an inland sea to mark their failure. Now reason is once again undone by rage, and all that dragons have wrought crumbles slowly into dust.


This was written by the dragon Kisonraathiisar, which it carved upon its own skin as it died. It was written (or found) in -439 DR. This (along with the rest of the letter) can be found on page 48 of the Grand History of the Realms.

quote:
...

I submit to you today my own interpretation of the nature of the Ever'Sakkatien, which differed in many ways from the rituals of Arselu'Tel'Quess that we practice today. Long before the Crown Wars that rent the Tel'Quessir and shattered our greatest kingdoms, our ancestors conceived of the need for a place of sanctuary - a place wholly of Faerun and yet apart from it - a place that would serve as the heart and home of the Tel'Quessir. But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if it had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point. Granted, their action might not have altered history all that significantly, since they had simply created an island in the middle of an unexplored ocean—an island hidden from sight by the will of the Seldarine. But change history they did, and the true extent of that change is forever lost to those who followed them into this world.

We have spoken before of the unintended consequences that always accompany the practice of Arselu'Tel'Quess, and why we must guard against hubris in our attempts to remake Toril as we wish it to be. In this case, I submit that the consequences were both far-reaching and subtle. ...

...


This is part of an excerpt taken from Grand Master Laeroth Runemaster's Discourse "On the Origins of the Green Isle," which he delivered in 1219 DR. It can be found in full on page 11 of Grand History of the Realms. The important part is made bold.

Remember that the Elven High Mage not part of the ritual saw backward and forward in time, and was able to see all three Sunderings. Is it possible that we can blame all three Sunderings on the Elves?

(Somehow, like the Six Degrees of Separation theory, every major horrible catastrophe that has ever happened on Toril can be connected back to the Elves in just three degrees or less.

"But we weren't even on Toril at the time, how could it be our fault?!"

"Because after you arrived you SCREWED WITH THE NATURE OF TIME ITSELF, and retroactively caused not one, but THREE apocalyptic events! No wonder Tintageer got destroyed, YOU BLEW IT UP! Get off our world before you kill more people!" )
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Sightless
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USA
608 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  03:53:15  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This was very very good. I especially liked the portion from the Draconomicon. However, there's at least one problem with the lore, so I'm going to list it out in hopes of getting some possible clarity.

The tears of Selune were formed 4800 years ago (roughly) according to the realmspace supplement, page 29

"The Tears of Selune one day just appeared, apparently from nowhere. The different cultures of Toril have their own versions of what happened.

Written in the Shou Lung scrolls of history, over 4800 years back, an astronomer looking up toward Selune, mapping its surface, reported seeing many objects suddenly "pop" into existence. Tremendous tidal waves on all of Toril's oceans commenced.

Several hours later, the same astronomer, Tu Pi Chei, reported his findings to the emperor's men. The emperor, awakened from his sleep, was very interested in this matter, and went out the next night to study the phenomenon with Tu Pi. After seeing that, indeed, a cluster of lights had appeared to the right of the moon, he had the 20 best astrologers in the country deduce its meaning."

Thus, the ice moon named Zotha doesn't appear to be what became the Tears of Selune. I imagine that this ice moon was either another moon, or perhaps a comet.

JUST SOME PERSONAL MUSINGS BELOW
One of the other things I note is that Helm is the one deity that really freaks out at the destruction of the tablets of fate. One of the musings I had in the "Days of Thunder" thread was that maybe the Norse deities were some of the first "introduced" to the world by Ao and that the battle of the primordials and gods was one of many "Ragnaroks" that have happened. If so, Helm was likely Heimdall (especially waiting at the top of the celestial stairway/rainbow bridge) and a survivor from that time. Tyr of course would also be a survivor (though perhaps he was lost and that's why many consider him a new deity to the realms). Talos as an amalgam god of Thor and Odin, perhaps turned darkly evil from having been poisoned by the "world serpent" and the primordial Chaos Hound/Fenris having "killed" them, would also fit. Cyric as a mortal given godhood based on Loki would also fit (in fact, perhaps Loki was slowly infecting him as soon as the tablets were split)... i.e. Ao uses the energy of the dead body of Loki in the Astral to infuse Cyric. None of this would be hard-core, but obviously some gods were "killed", so why not make it gods that have a history already of expecting to die. In this idea, Selune and Shar and Chauntea and Mystryl COULD be amongst the Vanir that fought with the Aesir (since you're really never given a story of who the Vanir are).



For info on the Vanir, see Grettir the Strong, especially the Tale of the blind, the first moon, and the bridge that should never be crossed.


We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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Sightless
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  04:02:35  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I note your assumption that 5E is being shaped by Ed and RA Salvatore in the sense that what we'll get will be based on their grand plan to save the Realms. Big assumption.

-- George Krashos




Hope often makes us make things that should be "a" into "A", or a small assumption into a guiding one. As for myself, I know that the thing at the end is never what it was when we set it out in the beginning. Perhaps then we can hope for, is that the end result will be close to what we want it to be. I myself remain skepticle. Of course it wont much matter, as I probably wont get much access to anything until years from now. And like the map issues, never truely get at all. Well, we shall se, I myself make no claims to prophecy, even though most seers were blind.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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Sightless
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  04:27:56  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Who's to say the Tears didn't go 'elsewhere' for awhile?
And knowing your penchant for curious hypothesises, I'd imagine [and am secretly hoping] you've explored this previously?



I shall admit up front I don’t know half as much about the realms as I’d like, but I find it interesting that Ed, or whoever came up with it, I assume it was Ed, had the first sun destroyed. In Tolkien’s work the first sun, the trees of light, were destroyed; in Persion mythus the first sun was destroyed; in the tale of Shu’Quen Thi, the first sun is destroyed; and here we have it in FR. In all these cases, what was initially planned for the world, whether it be by men or Gods, was destroyed purely completely and utterly. Let’s hold that for a moment, and take a look at the name Selune. Selu was a mythological moon Goddess who loved and celebrated life in all it’s forms, she was a being that while understanding the importance of struggle, saw that only so much was needed to obtain a certain end. She was connected to dragons, who in both eastern and near eastern myths are highly tied to the natural form of the land. In Selu’s case, one of these dragons makes a pact with a demon, and not just any demon, but the great destroyer of Zhori. It is this dragon that destroys the great sun, and causes all dragons to turn evil, save one, sound familiar. Now, holding all that, let’s take a good look at the tears for a moment, turning back to Selu for a moment, the shards of the first sun trailed the moon, in a line, but were not always visable. During times when the Pure dragon fought his evil pregenater, the shards would never be visable. Now, holding all that, given that Selune, and Shar are at war, and I’ve heard that she had a roll to play in the destruction of the first Sun, at least some speculate indirectly, could Selune be drawn up in the dragons war as well, just as Selu was in Zhor’s struggles?

A bit of a stretch I know, but to me there seems to be a connection between the four, and the appearance and disappearence of the tears, could be related to cosmic planner battles not glimpsed by folks on Feyran.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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Entromancer
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USA
388 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  07:38:48  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Surely Ed will have a greater say on what does go through with 5E than he did with, say, 4E? Even if the stuff that makes it in didn't come directly from Bob or Ed, it would still have been cleared by Ed?

"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10760 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  14:45:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just wondering, in what religion is this goddess Selu and this demon Zhori? When I search for a goddess named Selu, all I get is a Cherokee Corn goddess, and its all about how corn came into creation (with multiple slightly different variations). I would like to read more of this story.

My take on the name Selune is that it comes from the Greek goddess Selene who was also known as Luna by the Romans.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  15:33:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I would point out that Zotha was male and Asgorath was female. (I know it sounds totally backward.)

Laughably there is another source that refers to Asgorath as male, even though every other source I've seen so far refers to her as female. <snip>
I'd just like to add that beings of this level of power - deities and 'above' - sex is meaningless. Gods can be of any sex they wish, or completely androgynous. They create their physical form on-the-fly, so it is whatever they want it to be, and whatever is the most useful in a certain situation.

Hell, if Loki can be a mommy, anyone can.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Razz
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USA
732 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  16:53:27  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could care less about Laerakond, Ed creation or not (he did it cause he kinda had no choice but to ride along the 4E Death Wagon).

There is a "reboot" I want to see. Reboot the other lands like Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zhakara. They have a chance now to make those continents more unique while still keeping the real-world cultural and mythological influences. I am tired of those places being in the background.

WotC will never divulge their marketing statistics, but I sure wish we knew exactly what sells well for a Realms product. We all like to think we have an idea but do any of us really know what Realms products actually sell? As much as we all want to stay hopeful, let's please remember that the game is under corporate selfishness and not a living piece of work we all have the illusion that FR is. I am being pessimistic, yes, but that's because of the evidence for it being driven by pure profit, no matter how imaginary it is concerning the TTRPG market, all of this comes down to.

Case in point, after watching the Zelda Timeline on GT, I've come to notice that the Legend of Zelda is a perfect example of how living works should be. Where hardcore fans and the creators are both being the creatives. It really does feel shared, because those timeline theorists were causing more of the Zelda mythos to come to life and unity as much as the game creators were developing it.

I just do not feel that with D&D or FR anymore. This D&D Next feels extremely forced, or is just another illusion of a shared living work between creator and consumer, and I just feel that WotC is going to fall back into its old pattern very quickly like they always do. Because, in the end, it's all corporate.

If there were some clue as to maybe some sort of new contract being signed between the creators, mainly Ed, and WotC as to the future of D&D/Realms, I'd be more hopeful. But putting Ed in the seat doesn't ensure anything. It's obvious there is an equivalent of a "Game of Thrones" politicking going on around there we are not aware of...and Ed is probably going to be the Ned Stark on that throne concerning FR now...minus the beheading.

Like I did before, I will wait and see. Wait and see into my gray-haired years if it takes to see the changes and expansions I really have been waiting to happen in the Realms since the end of 2nd Edition. I always read those 2E Realms books and say to myself,"Why can't they just go back to THIS model? And at a FASTER pace?" The lore is agonizingly so slow.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10760 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  18:16:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

There is a "reboot" I want to see. Reboot the other lands like Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zhakara. They have a chance now to make those continents more unique while still keeping the real-world cultural and mythological influences. I am tired of those places being in the background.



I second this idea. I'm not saying put all the focus on these other lands. However, I am saying that these are areas where they can kindle their fires of creativity and most people won't complain overmuch. For instance, since Halruaa didn't fade over to Abeir (it exploded).... what if the people of Halruaa start making a gathering down in Zakhara (or the people of Zakhara start coming West). One of the other threads I started a few months back dealt with bringing back Maztica with an entirely different power/political structure in place. Were there any places in Zakhara that were transplanted like there were in Faerun? Will those places be coming back? If there were transplanted places, what geo-political issues arose as a result? For instance, Zakhara was a place without dragons..... Abeir is known for dragons... any issues?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 27 May 2013 :  19:20:45  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An excerpt from The Last Threshold follows. Imagine, if you will, Ed and Bob, chatting away by phone or computer--only now as a couple of warlocks, communing by crystal ball:
quote:
[...] Draygo argued[,] "There is change in the air."

"The Spellplague was change,” Parise said. "The advent of Shadow was change. The new reality is now simply settling."

"Or the old reality is preparing to return?" Draygo Quick asked. At the other end of the crystal ball, Parise Ulfbinder could only sigh and shrug.

It was just a theory, after all, a belief based on the reading by Parise, Draygo Quick, and some others, of [...] a now-lost tome penned nearly a thousand years before, based on prophecies from almost a thousand years before that.

[...]

"The proposition [...] calls it a temporary state," Parise went on. "Let us not react in fear to that which we do not fully comprehend."

"Let us not rest while the world prepares to shift around us," the old warlock countered.

"To a temporary state!" Parise replied. (TLT, Prelude)

Interesting, no, in light of this particular scroll?

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  19:46:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Razz

There is a "reboot" I want to see. Reboot the other lands like Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zhakara. They have a chance now to make those continents more unique while still keeping the real-world cultural and mythological influences. I am tired of those places being in the background.



I second this idea. I'm not saying put all the focus on these other lands. However, I am saying that these are areas where they can kindle their fires of creativity and most people won't complain overmuch. For instance, since Halruaa didn't fade over to Abeir (it exploded).... what if the people of Halruaa start making a gathering down in Zakhara (or the people of Zakhara start coming West). One of the other threads I started a few months back dealt with bringing back Maztica with an entirely different power/political structure in place. Were there any places in Zakhara that were transplanted like there were in Faerun? Will those places be coming back? If there were transplanted places, what geo-political issues arose as a result? For instance, Zakhara was a place without dragons..... Abeir is known for dragons... any issues?
No issues.

Djinn handed dragons their arses long ago (its one of their legends), so thats why dragons avoid zakhara. That doesn't mean things might not have changed in 4e - there could even be dragonborn there.

Zakhara doesn't need a reboot - it was fine just the way it was. The only thing it needs it to be tied more firmly to FR.

Kara-Tur was great, but the material is extremely dated at tis point, and it was always a tad derivative. It really just needs an update and some 'sprucing up'. I think the potential for dragonborn in KT is phenomenol (Oriental revere dragons).

Maztica - Ugh... what can I say? Not that it was awful, it just went way beyond derivation. It was basically a re-written RW history book. It had so much potential, and they just let that slip through their fingers. What I'd truly like to see here is a merging of Larakond and Maztica - I think that has tons of potential. Maztica was a bit 'stiff', and Larakond was... well.. just like Faerūn. Kind of pointless, since we already have a Faerūn. If they merged all of that, and make it a dark, jungle setting where dragons are worshiped it could be great. Keep the Aztec flavor, but focus on the draconic - we discovered awhile back (in a Maztica thread over at WotC) that the Mazican pantheon was almost a perfect fit for the draconic one - I think only one god didn't translate well into another (in other words, the Maztican pantheon was always the Draconic one, but with aliases). Add in their mythos about the 'True World' and its pure win - Abeir could have been that True World that was lost long ago (meaning that the natives knew from their oral histories that a part of the lands had 'gone missing' in the distant past).

So update Zakahara and tie it in better, update and give a facelift to KT, and merge the Returned Abeir stuff with the old Maztica. that would be my solution.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 May 2013 19:48:26
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10760 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2013 :  22:08:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Razz

There is a "reboot" I want to see. Reboot the other lands like Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zhakara. They have a chance now to make those continents more unique while still keeping the real-world cultural and mythological influences. I am tired of those places being in the background.



I second this idea. I'm not saying put all the focus on these other lands. However, I am saying that these are areas where they can kindle their fires of creativity and most people won't complain overmuch. For instance, since Halruaa didn't fade over to Abeir (it exploded).... what if the people of Halruaa start making a gathering down in Zakhara (or the people of Zakhara start coming West). One of the other threads I started a few months back dealt with bringing back Maztica with an entirely different power/political structure in place. Were there any places in Zakhara that were transplanted like there were in Faerun? Will those places be coming back? If there were transplanted places, what geo-political issues arose as a result? For instance, Zakhara was a place without dragons..... Abeir is known for dragons... any issues?
No issues.

Djinn handed dragons their arses long ago (its one of their legends), so thats why dragons avoid zakhara. That doesn't mean things might not have changed in 4e - there could even be dragonborn there.

Zakhara doesn't need a reboot - it was fine just the way it was. The only thing it needs it to be tied more firmly to FR.

Kara-Tur was great, but the material is extremely dated at tis point, and it was always a tad derivative. It really just needs an update and some 'sprucing up'. I think the potential for dragonborn in KT is phenomenol (Oriental revere dragons).

Maztica - Ugh... what can I say? Not that it was awful, it just went way beyond derivation. It was basically a re-written RW history book. It had so much potential, and they just let that slip through their fingers. What I'd truly like to see here is a merging of Larakond and Maztica - I think that has tons of potential. Maztica was a bit 'stiff', and Larakond was... well.. just like Faerūn. Kind of pointless, since we already have a Faerūn. If they merged all of that, and make it a dark, jungle setting where dragons are worshiped it could be great. Keep the Aztec flavor, but focus on the draconic - we discovered awhile back (in a Maztica thread over at WotC) that the Mazican pantheon was almost a perfect fit for the draconic one - I think only one god didn't translate well into another (in other words, the Maztican pantheon was always the Draconic one, but with aliases). Add in their mythos about the 'True World' and its pure win - Abeir could have been that True World that was lost long ago (meaning that the natives knew from their oral histories that a part of the lands had 'gone missing' in the distant past).

So update Zakahara and tie it in better, update and give a facelift to KT, and merge the Returned Abeir stuff with the old Maztica. that would be my solution.




Oooo, an interesting thought just came to my mind regarding Maztica. What if indeed it was a part of Abeir, up until the time the tears of Selune appeared. After all, Faerun only recently discovered it. The human population that's there in the 1300's could simply be a result of population growth. Maybe they were transplants, maybe slaves that overthrew their masters... maybe something else entirely.

Then, what if the Mulan Gods that came over to free their peoples actually found a way to "break in" past the Godswall by going to Abeir and forcing a transition of land between worlds.... such that Mulhorand and Unther were actually part of Abeir and that's why these areas were so affected.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2631 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2013 :  00:05:45  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like character-driven stories and small-scales stories (like City of the Dead and God Catcher) as much as anyone, but I also like the big, epic stories. I seem to be one of the few who actually likes stories about the gods, but oh well. I will give 5E a chance. I stuck with 4E because I wanted to know what happened, even though I hated the Spellplague.

I would love to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun return, but I've heard they might not get much attention in 5E, or even their followers. That's disappointing, to me.

Sweet water and light laughter
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6280 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2013 :  01:01:51  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I maintain that the Spellplague was not the first time that Abeir came into sync with Toril following the twinning of the worlds.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2013 :  15:49:06  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

An excerpt from The Last Threshold follows. Imagine, if you will, Ed and Bob, chatting away by phone or computer--only now as a couple of warlocks, communing by crystal ball:
quote:
[...] Draygo argued[,] "There is change in the air."

"The Spellplague was change,” Parise said. "The advent of Shadow was change. The new reality is now simply settling."

"Or the old reality is preparing to return?" Draygo Quick asked. At the other end of the crystal ball, Parise Ulfbinder could only sigh and shrug.

It was just a theory, after all, a belief based on the reading by Parise, Draygo Quick, and some others, of [...] a now-lost tome penned nearly a thousand years before, based on prophecies from almost a thousand years before that.

[...]

"The proposition [...] calls it a temporary state," Parise went on. "Let us not react in fear to that which we do not fully comprehend."

"Let us not rest while the world prepares to shift around us," the old warlock countered.

"To a temporary state!" Parise replied. (TLT, Prelude)

Interesting, no, in light of this particular scroll?



The prophecy in The Last Threshold does not reveal much, something about the chosen being hurled to the planes.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2013 :  18:25:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oooo, an interesting thought just came to my mind regarding Maztica. What if indeed it was a part of Abeir, up until the time the tears of Selune appeared. After all, Faerun only recently discovered it. The human population that's there in the 1300's could simply be a result of population growth. Maybe they were transplants, maybe slaves that overthrew their masters... maybe something else entirely.

Then, what if the Mulan Gods that came over to free their peoples actually found a way to "break in" past the Godswall by going to Abeir and forcing a transition of land between worlds.... such that Mulhorand and Unther were actually part of Abeir and that's why these areas were so affected.
One of my earliest theories regarding Abeir (back before I knew precisely what it was, probably even before the FRCG was released) was that the Spellplague was actually a revision - a 'cosmic reset' that sent things back to where they belonged (almost like how a rubberband snaps back into place).

So you had Maztica 'returning' to Abeir, and you had Evermeet returning to Faerie, etc. I hadn't really thought about Mulhrand and Unther (and their three pantheons), but that works too. In fact, I am really liking where this is going.

Serpents, dragons, and Sauroids... steamy jungles, merciless deserts, & blasted wastelands... all sorts of pyramids (Aztec and Egyptian), etc, etc...

You know, I still think Athas (Dark Sun) could easily be part of Abeir - the flavor really fits well (a hot, godless world with dragonkings? C'mon... that practically writes itself.)

And I would love it if those interloper pantheons (Mulhorand, Chessenta, & Unther) were really from Abeir - it wouldn't be so... I don't know... so jarring? Who knows, maybe parts of Abeir (Atlantis and Lemuria?) were on Earth for awhile, and thats where the those pantheons originated (so the Earth versions would also be interlopers).

Hmmmmm.. what if 'Abeir' is actually the reason why the Realms are 'Forgotten'? What if when the world was Sundered, that's when Toril became 'out of sync' with Earth (and perhaps many other worlds). If they paste Abeir and Toril abck together, they'd have a chance to fix a lot of things, and spruce up the map - give it all sorts of interesting 'fiddly bits' (as Ed has put it). Of course, that would mean more drastic changes then even 4e made (but if the more drastic ones occurred on the edges of Faerūn, and beyond, what harm could that do?) One of my less-favorite theories regarding 4e was that they didn't go 'far enough'. They changed stuff that didn't need to be changed, but kept a lot of the stuff that really needed some tinkering. They could leave the main campaign area basically intact, but change-up quite a bit of the rest.

I'd love to get a truly new map for 5e - the 4e one was a definite down-grade from everything we got previously. I'd like to see the coasts truly change (and not just mention they changed in lore... and then NOT represent that on ANY map), see some things sink (we did get a bit of that), new lands 'rise', etc... it would be kinda cool if we still had our FR, but had a few new toys to play with. I was a big fan of separating Chult from the rest of the continent - hopefuly it will drift a bit further away.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 May 2013 18:30:49
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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Posted - 28 May 2013 :  21:44:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Hmmmmm.. what if 'Abeir' is actually the reason why the Realms are 'Forgotten'? What if when the world was Sundered, that's when Toril became 'out of sync' with Earth (and perhaps many other worlds).



If that was the case, we wouldn't have so many mages of power who have made their way to Earth, in various Dragon magazine articles. Off the top of my head, Elminster, Khelben, Laeral, Qilue, the Simbul, and Shaan the Serpent Queen have all been to Earth.

In one of Elminster's visits to Ed, he noted that some local (Earth) girls had the potential to become skilled wielders of the Art, and the following exchange indicated that there is a group intent in keeping magic use on Earth limited -- it is not illogical to assume that this group may be responsible for making sure knowledge of the ways to the Realms were lost.

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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe

USA
206 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2013 :  21:45:31  Show Profile  Visit Emma Drake's Homepage Send Emma Drake a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

In one of Elminster's visits to Ed, he noted that some local (Earth) girls had the potential to become skilled wielders of the Art, and the following exchange indicated that there is a group intent in keeping magic use on Earth limited -- it is not illogical to assume that this group may be responsible for making sure knowledge of the ways to the Realms were lost.



Where is this?

"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."

- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall)
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10760 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2013 :  22:04:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oooo, an interesting thought just came to my mind regarding Maztica. What if indeed it was a part of Abeir, up until the time the tears of Selune appeared. After all, Faerun only recently discovered it. The human population that's there in the 1300's could simply be a result of population growth. Maybe they were transplants, maybe slaves that overthrew their masters... maybe something else entirely.

Then, what if the Mulan Gods that came over to free their peoples actually found a way to "break in" past the Godswall by going to Abeir and forcing a transition of land between worlds.... such that Mulhorand and Unther were actually part of Abeir and that's why these areas were so affected.
One of my earliest theories regarding Abeir (back before I knew precisely what it was, probably even before the FRCG was released) was that the Spellplague was actually a revision - a 'cosmic reset' that sent things back to where they belonged (almost like how a rubberband snaps back into place).

So you had Maztica 'returning' to Abeir, and you had Evermeet returning to Faerie, etc. I hadn't really thought about Mulhrand and Unther (and their three pantheons), but that works too. In fact, I am really liking where this is going.

Serpents, dragons, and Sauroids... steamy jungles, merciless deserts, & blasted wastelands... all sorts of pyramids (Aztec and Egyptian), etc, etc...

You know, I still think Athas (Dark Sun) could easily be part of Abeir - the flavor really fits well (a hot, godless world with dragonkings? C'mon... that practically writes itself.)

And I would love it if those interloper pantheons (Mulhorand, Chessenta, & Unther) were really from Abeir - it wouldn't be so... I don't know... so jarring? Who knows, maybe parts of Abeir (Atlantis and Lemuria?) were on Earth for awhile, and thats where the those pantheons originated (so the Earth versions would also be interlopers).

Hmmmmm.. what if 'Abeir' is actually the reason why the Realms are 'Forgotten'? What if when the world was Sundered, that's when Toril became 'out of sync' with Earth (and perhaps many other worlds). If they paste Abeir and Toril abck together, they'd have a chance to fix a lot of things, and spruce up the map - give it all sorts of interesting 'fiddly bits' (as Ed has put it). Of course, that would mean more drastic changes then even 4e made (but if the more drastic ones occurred on the edges of Faerūn, and beyond, what harm could that do?) One of my less-favorite theories regarding 4e was that they didn't go 'far enough'. They changed stuff that didn't need to be changed, but kept a lot of the stuff that really needed some tinkering. They could leave the main campaign area basically intact, but change-up quite a bit of the rest.

I'd love to get a truly new map for 5e - the 4e one was a definite down-grade from everything we got previously. I'd like to see the coasts truly change (and not just mention they changed in lore... and then NOT represent that on ANY map), see some things sink (we did get a bit of that), new lands 'rise', etc... it would be kinda cool if we still had our FR, but had a few new toys to play with. I was a big fan of separating Chult from the rest of the continent - hopefuly it will drift a bit further away.




Yeah,I'm noting that the island called the "ship of the gods" is gone from the 4e maps (it was also gone from 3E though). Now, granted, it did explode at one point and cause massive tidal waves in 1369 DR (hmmmm, planar brushing... we believe it also had something to do with Iakhovas and the 12th Seros war... hmmm, Iakhovas as a primordial, put that thought aside for another time). Could this have been their method of coming into Toril (or perhaps the method of one of the Mulan Pantheons), and perhaps this explosion was also the first transfer preceding the spellplague?

I don't know what happened to Semphar in 4E, but since the Teyla Shan / Godswatch Mountains are where the "official" place that the Mulan deities came across.... maybe that section went over? Is it documented anywhere?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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