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drabin pheonix
Acolyte
Ireland
9 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 08:44:14
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I'm am a paladin of torm in 4th edition and have been chosen to be a champion of torm by himself. My question is if go into a city which has a church of torm do I have the power to inforce the law because torm is the god of justice now and if I do, do I have the authority were ever I go?
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 09:19:11
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If you can deal with the local authorities to rather see you gone in any possible way from friendly "get on your way please" to outright murder, you can try  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 13:03:54
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I'd speak to your DM, as that's the only person who can answer this question.
Canonically, no - not literally. A paladin of Torm would likely work with local law enforcement to bring about justice, but of course problems do arise if the local law enforcement (or even the law makers) are corrupt and deemed evil. In such a case, you could make a strong argument from religious grounds that your divine mandate supersedes their mortal laws. Which in turn, basically means you're putting yourself at odds with the local law.
So, if you walk into a small rural village and you find that the local lord is abusing his subjects and the law enforcers are supporting him - you'd arguably have the right to overthrow them. However, a great deal depends on the circumstances of each situation. In general, canonically speaking, most Tormites are going to want to work with those currently in power rather than against them. Showing up and basically declaring yourself "the Law" and enforcing it however you see fit is obviously going to cause issues with those in power locally. They won't take kindly to that.
However, nothing says that your character can't view his duties in such a manner. If a player told me they wanted to play a Tormite in such a way, I'd allow it without punishment. He'd be considered a fanatic, obviously, and he could create problems for the faith - both internally (because there may be those who agree with your views) and externally (because secular rulers will oppose you). But, hey - what's life without a religious schism?
It all depends on your DM. If you go vigilante your DM could potentially bring divine punishment down on your character, but I don't personally think it's necessarily outside the scope of the Tormite mindset. He likely wouldn't be the first, and won't be the last, to place himself above mortal law. After all, he *DOES* have a divine mandate, and so long as Torm continues to grant your character support he can continue to act in whatever manner he sees fit in service to him.
EDIT: I should point out there is a rather large exception, I think. If your character sees someone actively doing something wrong (i.e. stealing, attempting to murder someone, someone being abused or harmed) then you have an obligation to intervene to protect the victim and hold the criminal accountable. In most circumstances, holding the criminal accountable means turning them over to local law enforcement. However, if the local law enforcement is corrupt... then you can obviously see some issues for your character. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 25 Apr 2013 13:11:27 |
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drabin pheonix
Acolyte
Ireland
9 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 13:29:07
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| Thanks for your view aldrick, needed an outside view because at tge moment I am having issues with a thieves guide who kidnapped my daughter and the last. Time I had a run in with them they openly admitted to stealing from my companion and warned us that none of us were untouchable. This lead to me to taking the law into my own hands but the local law seemed to be more concerned about me and not the thieves guild. Now I'm unsure if I should go straight at them or contact the the local law. I'm all for charging in and letting my sword bring justice instead of hoping the local law will help? |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 14:36:34
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| I suspect that thier are rules for that sort of thing. Like say in cormyr there would be laws that allow Paladin's to make arrests if they register with the city's watch first. Or you could capture the bad guys and then call the watch in to make an arrest. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 14:47:49
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This would actually make an excellent question for ED:
How much power do officials/Paladins of a church actually wield? Is this power automatically granted in some areas, and completely denied in others?
I assume that a Paladin has full jurisdiction in 'wild' areas (like in The North, between towns & cities), but when within a settlement that has its own 'police force', they must adhere to whatever rules there are. There may also exist some sort of 'citizen's arrest' type of rules in most areas - once again, something to bring before Ed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2013 14:48:44 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 15:00:39
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Well, the most obvious route is to go to the local law and demand that they take action. However, obviously - this being a thieves guild - they've likely bribed people within the local law enforcement. They may have a couple of toadies on the inside. What you'd want to look for are people in a position of authority who would be interested in removing the thieves guild.
This doesn't necessarily need to be someone in the local law enforcement. A noble or local magistrate that you can trust, who has the power to grant you immunity to the law so that you can act with impunity... that's what you want. Then you can go over the head of any corrupt local law enforcers, and even directly begin rooting them out.
This way you're acting within the law, and you're doing your duty to your deity at the same time.
All this being said, let's pretend for the moment that the local law enforcement is pretty corrupt and in the pocket of the local thieves guild. At the same time, there is no one higher up that can or is willing to grant you the legal authority to deal with this guild. Then theoretically, you've entered into a grey area.
The fact that they're thieves means they have victims. Clearly, your faith demands that these individuals be dealt with. On the other hand, your faith is putting you in a head on collision course with the secular law. If you've got a local group dedicated to your faith, or those who'd be obvious and clear allies of it; then I suggest going there for support and aid.
If you can't find support, then that may mean you have to take actions on your own. This effectively, in the eyes of the secular law, makes you a vigilante. That's not a good place to be, but could at times be a necessary place. Thus, getting support from those within your faith as well as those allied with it helps immensely; mostly for the obvious political reasons. You become much harder to touch if they know the various local lawful and good aligned churches will support you and your actions. Since you're going after criminals, what will the local authorities (who'd likely be corrupt to some degree), say to that? They'd be defending the criminals. More likely, they'd try and have a go at you through more subtle means - such as assassination. In which case, you'd be justified in bringing both the assassin and the person(s) who sent him to justice as well.
In the end, I'd recommend setting aside the fact that they've taken your daughter. Obviously, this would be very emotional for your character. However, you'd want to be mindful that your actions do not cross over from being about achieving justice, and instead moving toward taking vengeance. The line there isn't always clear, and you could easily find yourself starting to step over it if the focus becomes about you and *YOUR* daughter.
Instead, your focus needs to be on the victims of the thieves guild. You should do your best to exclude yourself from that group, as to maintain as much objectivity as possible. That doesn't mean you can't include your daughter in the group of victims. So you can achieve justice for her, and by achieving justice for her you get it for yourself as well.
An even better way to handle things is to broaden out your focus. The more victims of the guild you know about, the more justified your actions become, and that's what you want - justification.
Some good ideas for you:
1. Within the local law enforcement, look for those higher up the chain of command; starting at the top and working your way down. You want to figure out who you can trust, and see who you can get on your side. See what you can find out about their reputations. If someone seems likely to give you support to take out the thieves guild, then take it.
2. Go even higher up the chain of command, to the local governing authority. This may be a magistrate, a noble, someone on a council, etc. Someone somewhere in the ruling elite are going to be opposed to the thieves guild. Seek them out, get their support.
3. Get the support of local faiths. This naturally means fellow Tormites, but it also means other faiths who'd ally with your faith. In general this means most LG, NG, CG, LN, and N faiths. Even a small church of Oghma could suffer at the hands of thieves attempting to steal some of their valuable tomes over the years.
4. Look for merchants who've been wronged by the guild. Some merchants may benefit from the thieves guild, but most merchants wouldn't benefit at all. At best many would likely be paying protection fees to the guild to avoid having their stuff stolen or destroyed. Win their support.
When you have enough support where it becomes politically problematic to touch you; that's when you make your move. |
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drabin pheonix
Acolyte
Ireland
9 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 15:20:37
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| Thanks everyone for your imput, the game is tonight so I have a lot to think about, should be fun either way: -) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 15:46:23
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| Torm is the law, not you, impudent Mortal.... you are hereby cast from grace for your sacrilege. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 19:06:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I assume that a Paladin has full jurisdiction in 'wild' areas (like in The North, between towns & cities)
In the old North 1e sourcebook it is stated that rangers of a certain level can act as justice in smaller villages. I'd say it depends on when you are, sure. In cities where the justice is organized and the place respects the church of Torm, it would still be good for the paladin to offer his services to the local authorities.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 14:10:43
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So let's say you actually get backed by your superiors in Torms clergy and you get the quest to set things aright. There are probably several Torm sanctioned but heavy handed ways of getting grips on betrayers of Torms grace. Investigation is required, so I hope you have enough ink and paper to record anything you deem suspect. A swift trial will have to be held, so your tongue needs to be silvered. Punishment needs to be meeted, so a keen mind and blade shall decide here.
I think most indicted clerics and paladins of the Triad have the authority to initiate an investigation in a locale or city ward. They then have the power to summon everyone to a central place for a public questioning. Attendance is voluntary but everyone that fails to show up is suspect. With the public information gathered through voluntary interrogation, further layers of facts about the offenders of justice needs to be found and recorded, so that a trial can be started.
A trial can be swift or extensive, depending on the situation and the severity of the accusations, and the usual practise of the local prosecution agency. Swift trials are mostly reserved for serious crimes like murders, when innocent lives are in the balance, obvious fiendish possesion or fugative betrayers of countries in times of war. They become as swift as a small prayer in these instances, allowing paladins and clerics to sentence their foes during combat. Swift trials are obviously favored by Tormites, and I suspect most would have trials be done in advance in a centralized powercenter of their church, and then would go hunting their suspects... with the legal work done and carried in a legal scroll which they memorize by heart so they can call out the offences of the the subject before they smite.
Long trials involve a judge, jury, defendents and all the things Tyr would deem proper to ensure the trial will be just. Most of the trials are held publicly and at fixed times during a day, but some sensitive trials could be held in the guarded grand halls of a(n allied) temple cathedral. Trials by combat are common in rural areas where local authorities have less influence, and clan politics and familial feuds are more common. Lawful clerics and paladins are probably charged with preventing them from happening, explaining to the parties involved their trials are to be considered the proper way of meting justice.
Punishments are usually public aswell, so "that others will become terrified and shy away from the evils they would commit". Execution and trial by combat are sometimes withheld from public by circumstance, such as when the suspect has dangerous information or magics. Execution, confiscation of property, imprisonment, exile and banishment, prayer, pilgrimage and/or public recantation are all possible punishments meeted out in a triadic trial.
It's important to for a paladin or cleric to know how much the local legal system is supported, and not to act on accusations based on aquiring property, status or influence. So it's their duty to spot corruption and reveal the truth to the public. You can start to see why adventuring clergymen can be a serious nuisance for local power structures that use the law to aid their cause. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Am I the Law?
