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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 04:26:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Don't think Mithril Hall even qualifies, BEAST. It's a dwarven CITY. In other words, I'm betting there are PLENTY of dwarf women there. Though I can understand your confusion- it's the beards, LOL!!!
Hey, it's still male-dominated, so it counts!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 17:56:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
My vote is for a female character who is strongly religious. We don't see a lot of religious characters in the Realms . . .
I think there are more than enough drow priestesses to fill the “religious female” category. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 18:19:08
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The Brotherhood of the Griffon has women
I believe Vierna was the only woman who ever belonged to Bregan D'aerthe |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 22:08:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
My vote is for a female character who is strongly religious. We don't see a lot of religious characters in the Realms . . .
I think there are more than enough drow priestesses to fill the “religious female” category.
I wouldn't count the Drow. They're a pretty unique case, and besides - none of them individually fall into the 'uber iconic' category.
...and plus, Lolth, Eilistraee...blah... I'm kinda sick of Drow at this point. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 16:22:02
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You know, I don’t think of Drizzt, or Elmenster when I think about the Realms, I think, “hay, That’s Ed’s baby.” And no, I don’t think it’s an ugly baby, because I’ve never met one.
Yes, that’s a bit of a joke, on me.
Seriously,, my issue is more that there should be more leading characters, not just more female characters. After several “iconic,” characters are gone, which is good, growing time, now go out and make more new iconic characters. Go, Go, make them, now, now!
Sorry, got carried away.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 16:58:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
they need to ask themselves, "how can we get those folks not buying our product to buy it?" Thats what Paizo did.
Which is something that fails just as often as it succeeds (and even in success it often ends up having switched out the customer base with no real net gain in the end).
Different people like different things and there's hardly something that sells to everybody.
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Edited by - Mirtek on 20 Apr 2013 17:00:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 18:44:22
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^Quite True^
Sometimes it backfires.. I site the dreaded 'New Coke' example.
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
Has everyone seemingly forgotten about Liriel Baenre? I did forget about her, but just remembered her. She's not an uber power, but very much a main character.
Yes and No.
In the great (FR) scheme of things, she's very minor (although not nearly as minor as Drizzt, who is pretty-much a VERY localized 'power'). On the other hand, if you interpret the conclusion of her series correctly, she changed the The DROW, for all time... thats pretty damn significant.
Without her, Drizzt's (surface) abilities would go unexplained (like so very much else about Drizzt). Sadly, they seem to have swept all of that 'under the rug', so to speak. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2013 : 05:44:17
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Oddly enough, I did create a lawful good priestess of Torm (in his incarnation as the Threefold God) in my latest novel Shadowbane: Eye of Justice. Tough, committed, very religious, secretive, adept in combat and with magic. Though unlike basically every other character in that novel, she seems to be pretty straight.
Religion is actually a pretty significant theme in that whole series, come to think of it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2013 : 19:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the great (FR) scheme of things, she's very minor (although not nearly as minor as Drizzt, who is pretty-much a VERY localized 'power'). On the other hand, if you interpret the conclusion of her series correctly, she changed the The DROW, for all time... thats pretty damn significant.
[...] Sadly, they seem to have swept all of that 'under the rug', so to speak.
It doesn't make much sense, though. Elaine's explanation for a localized event, in Liriel's case, has somehow been cast as explaining a wholesale change for all drow in all places. You talk about grand sweeping of things under the rug, but this is pretty much a grand sweeping of things in another direction. It's just a broad explaining-away of things, without much rhyme or reason to it.
I have NOTHING against Elaine for that. I just don't see why so many people accept the localized event in her story as a macro-explanation for the whole Realms. 
quote:
Without her, Drizzt's (surface) abilities would go unexplained (like so very much else about Drizzt).
Nah, her story doesn't seem to have anything to do with Drizzt's abilities. His racial powers are linked to the faezress radiation of the Underdark. His lower racial spell-like abilities are still available to him as a primarily-surface-dweller because there's so much of the radioactive stuff floating in his bloodstream, owing to him being a drow, and his occasional returns to the world below. But his higher abilities, like levitation, are more heavily-dependent upon regular high doses of the stuff, which he doesn't get anymore, and so he has lost such abilities.
If Liriel's supposed macro-explanation affected Drizzt whatsoever, then he should be able to levitate once again, shouldn't he? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2013 : 19:51:27
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the great (FR) scheme of things, she's very minor (although not nearly as minor as Drizzt, who is pretty-much a VERY localized 'power'). On the other hand, if you interpret the conclusion of her series correctly, she changed the The DROW, for all time... thats pretty damn significant.
[...] Sadly, they seem to have swept all of that 'under the rug', so to speak.
It doesn't make much sense, though. Elaine's explanation for a localized event, in Liriel's case, has somehow been cast as explaining a wholesale change for all drow in all places. You talk about grand sweeping of things under the rug, but this is pretty much a grand sweeping of things in another direction. It's just a broad explaining-away of things, without much rhyme or reason to it.
I have NOTHING against Elaine for that. I just don't see why so many people accept the localized event in her story as a macro-explanation for the whole Realms.
Actually, Elaine has noted that she used that mechanism to explain the shift in drow abilities from 2E to 3E. So it was intended as a macro-explanation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2013 : 20:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the great (FR) scheme of things, she's very minor (although not nearly as minor as Drizzt, who is pretty-much a VERY localized 'power'). On the other hand, if you interpret the conclusion of her series correctly, she changed the The DROW, for all time... thats pretty damn significant.
[...] Sadly, they seem to have swept all of that 'under the rug', so to speak.
It doesn't make much sense, though. Elaine's explanation for a localized event, in Liriel's case, has somehow been cast as explaining a wholesale change for all drow in all places. You talk about grand sweeping of things under the rug, but this is pretty much a grand sweeping of things in another direction. It's just a broad explaining-away of things, without much rhyme or reason to it.
I have NOTHING against Elaine for that. I just don't see why so many people accept the localized event in her story as a macro-explanation for the whole Realms.
Actually, Elaine has noted that she used that mechanism to explain the shift in drow abilities from 2E to 3E. So it was intended as a macro-explanation.
Agreed, it was specifically done to explain away in-game changes. It was probably dictated even. My favorite of all three of those novels was when they finally went to Rashemen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 00:19:24
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And not just in FR... in the entire D&Dverse.
The Drow curse began on Toril, and so anything that effects the curse itself on Toril effects the entire curse, wherever the Drow have migrated to.
Its been what? 11,000+ years? Although that seems a bit far, other races have spread further in less time, so it makes perfect sense to me. I've postulated here several times that some Drow went 'further' then they realized, using the Underways (The Underland from Beyond Countless Doorways - basically a plane connecting all the 'Underdarks' together).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2013 19:49:55 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 01:14:41
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And here I was listening to this heresy about the drow originating on Greyhawk. Some overgod called Gygax or something . . . 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 03:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I just don't see why so many people accept the localized event in her story as a macro-explanation for the whole Realms.
Actually, Elaine has noted that she used that mechanism to explain the shift in drow abilities from 2E to 3E. So it was intended as a macro-explanation.
Again, I don't see how the explanation works, regardless of her intention, or of the politics behind the scene at WOTC at the time. Taking local place magic and somehow extending it into whole planet magic (or possibly multi-setting magic, if it affects Greyhawk drow, too) just boggles my mind. And nobody here has been able to explain it to me, yet; they just accept it, and advise me to, as well.
It's odd, because shortly after Elaine's plot device began to be accepted as a means of allowing drow Underdark-related faerzress magic to continue to be used on the surface, lorebooks then began to say that drow were using faerzress drowcraft less often on their weapons. It sounded as if they were trying to wean themselves off of the stuff, a little. If so, then Elaine's device of making the drow's Underdark faerzress effective on the surface wouldn't be very useful, as the drow apparently weren't using the stuff as much even in the Underdark--much less on the surface.
quote:
"We now have games for you to play on your PSP in other countries abroad, so you don't have to leave your PSP back home anymore."
"But I don't use my PSP anymore. I use a Nintendo Wii, now."
"Bah!"
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 04:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I just don't see why so many people accept the localized event in her story as a macro-explanation for the whole Realms.
Actually, Elaine has noted that she used that mechanism to explain the shift in drow abilities from 2E to 3E. So it was intended as a macro-explanation.
Again, I don't see how the explanation works, regardless of her intention, or of the politics behind the scene at WOTC at the time. Taking local place magic and somehow extending it into whole planet magic (or possibly multi-setting magic, if it affects Greyhawk drow, too) just boggles my mind. And nobody here has been able to explain it to me, yet; they just accept it, and advise me to, as well.
Because the Windwalker was an artifact. Artifacts break the rules. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 18:52:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because the Windwalker was an artifact. Artifacts break the rules.
My understanding was that the Windwalker was an artifact that came with its own rules. So it broke its own rules. That makes for incoherent storytelling, doesn't it?
At any rate, it all depends on an accidental freakish failure of an artifact to do what it's supposed to do. I'd hardly call Liriel significant for that--only the artifact's oddness was.
So neither Drizzt nor Liriel are significant in terms of their effects on the Realms. They're impact has mostly been on their readers. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 20:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And here I was listening to this heresy about the drow originating on Greyhawk. Some overgod called Gygax or something . . .
Cheers
From a meta-gaming standpoint, YES, the Drow did originate on GH. However, 'Dark Elves' are an ancient, Nordic concept and hardly new.
From an in-game (D&Dverse) perspective, the Drow have been around longer on Toril, because there is no record of Drow on Oerth beyond a couple of centuries ago. Ergo, back when a bunch of us were working on the Elven Netbook Project, we came up with the idea that GH Elves were a group that emigrated from Toril, hence the odd reference to Erelhei-Cinlu in the 2eFR Drow of the Underdark. A group that was even more 'orthodox Lolthite' then even your common Menzoberranzan.
Other groups - like the ones on the moon Kule (GH) - are an even sadder happenstance; most of those have never stepped foot on Toril, and yet were affected by the Descent curse simply because they were of the Ilythiir bloodline (Long ago, when the fey sent the tribes of Elves out in the Material world, many Dark Elves choose NOT to go with their warlike brethren and settled on worlds other then Toril).
At least, thats how we spun all of that, to make sense of the "What happens in FR does NOT stay in FR" phenomena. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2013 20:03:38 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 03:03:00
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I don't attribute the apparent (perceived) lack of prominent female characters in the setting book to misogyny, but rather ineptitude, like many "improvements" rendered on to the Realms. In their over-eagerness to establish a new status quo for the setting, Wizards moved the timeline a few generations forward necessitating the eventual deaths of characters (of both genders) who had decades to develop. The new characters though obviously (wisely) placed in positions of prominence are little more than names and a titles. It takes time for them to develop. Time which 4E honestly hasn't had, nor has the output matched prior editions. In 3E, FR had articles in monthly magazines, regular articles on the website (accessible for free), and a regular schedule of books. The material of 4E has matched that in some areas, but fallen behind in others.
Also, while the 4E characters are prominent, there's also the factor of instant recognizability and iconic status (not talking about levels). Many of the newer characters are council members or otherwise share power with equals or even more prominent characters. Compared to the Simbul who was THE Witch-Queen of Aglarond, Laeral was THE Lady of Blackstaff Tower and Waterdeep (and formerly Storm-Queen of Stornanter), Alustriel was THE High Lady of Silverymoon and Luruar, Alusair was THE Steel Regent, Caladnei was THE Royal Wizard, Zaranda was THE Queen of a refounded Tethyr, Mystra was THE Goddess of Magic, Eilistraee was THE Exiled Drow daughter of Corellon, etc. They had major historical events and conflicts tied to them. These characters were singularities, many are the first of their kind or the first woman of their position or status in quite some time (in game history, or our real world cognizance of the setting, aka publication). That is perhaps the gap in developed, defined characters and personalities WotC never adequately bridged between the editions. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 01:12:00
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| Am I the only one who's tired of the Drow having drastic things happen to their race? |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 05:14:39
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I had no idea the Rashemi were black. I didn't even know Impiltur was demon lead.
I wonder what percentage of FR readers are female. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 12:40:54
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Black, really? I thought they have dark brown skin. Source, please. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 14:11:21
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Thats odd - I had one mostly-forgotten branch of the displaced Turami people travel north rather then west (as the Mulan pushed west into Mulhorand, Unther, and chessenta), and that group created the 'nation' of Thazalhar (originally an Imaskari Mining Province). That nation was obliterated during the Orcgate Wars, being the battleground for gods. Whats left of those peoples live hidden away throughout the Sunrise Mountains ("the hills have eyes"). They also ride avian sauroids that look like a cross between a Pterodactyl and a wyvern (inspired by THIS image.)
However, that's how I pictured a very select, furtive group within the Unapproachable East, and is entirely HOMEBREW. If anything, I pictured the other two people in that painting as Rus (Rashemi). I assume the Rus would be somewhat 'lighter' (because of the admixture of Illuskan blood) then the average Rashemi, who I pictured having a more eastern-European/Slavic look about them (so perhaps olive-skinned, with the faintest hint of 'Oriental' about them).
Well, if they were black in 4e, then they can't be changed. After all, once you go black.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 May 2013 14:12:13 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 14:34:44
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I can’t even recall any mention of them being black in the Rashemen-centric novel Prophet of the Dead. Well, speaking of which, I’d better ask Richard then. And Ed. . . |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 17:00:29
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| My source is an earlier poster. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 17:16:02
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And that is . . .?
I skimmed through the posts, and I found Jeremy and Aldrick mentioned Rashemi, but not that they are black. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 17:25:50
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I think that a lot of this is the question of what is a lead character. Especially interesting as D&D books, like the game and many fantasy stories involve an ensemble cast. Even where Females are in the lead with the classic D&D books of 1, 2 and even 3 edition... a female was usually at least paired with a male lead character.
So for lead character, do you mean a book where we here the inner monologue of a female character? Or a female character who is performing important, vital actions? Both different definitions which can change whether we have female leads or not with the books we have.
So agreed definition is important as it can change the results....
Additional: A great mirror on your definition of a female lead...
Is Catti-Brie a Drizzt's Leading Female or a Supporting Female for Drizzt? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 06 May 2013 17:29:36 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 18:01:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Black, really? I thought they have dark brown skin. Source, please.
I'm citing Races of Faerun page 99.
quote:
Most Rashemi average about five and a half feet in height, with stout and muscular builds. Most are dusky of skin and dark of eye, with thick black hair. Rashemi males are unusually hirsute and often sport bushy black beards. Although handsome, many seem almost ursine in nature. Baldness is almost unknown among Rashemi males, although inhabitants of Thay are known to shave all body hair in imitation of the ruling Mulan. Female Rashemi wear their black hair long, often in elaborate braids.
Races of Faerun attempts to avoid using terms like "black" or "white". They frequently use terms like:
"Illuskans are tall, fair-skinned folk with eyes of blue or steely gray."
"Known for their large green eyes, copper hair, and parchment-colored skin, the Lantanna are rarely encountered outside their native isles except aboard merchant ships."
"Nars are short and stocky, with darkly tanned skin tones and straight, raven black hair, usually worn to the shoulders."
"Physically, Raumvirans bear a close resemblance to the Rashemi, indicative of centuries of close ties between the two groups. Although taller on average than their western neighbors, the Raumvirans are also generally stout and muscular, with dark eyes and thick black hair. Raumvirans are generally of lighter hue than the Rashemi, evidence of significant Sossrim heritage dating back to the height of their long-fallen empire."
There was some actual debate over what "parchment-colored" looked like...
Anyway, a quick Google search for "dusky skin" naturally turns up many images for cosmetic products attempting to match their product to proper skin tones. Here are some hits from that search.
Link 1.
Link 2.
I like to use sites that discuss cosmetics as references for skin tone because they have to be rather precise to match the right product to the tone. Each of the women portrayed also have dark hair and dark eyes, as Rashemi do. So, there you go.  |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 18:21:07
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It was Aldrick ^^^
quote:
we could give her the backstory of her grandparents being Rashemi immigrants who fled Thay during Szass Tam's take over. So, not only would she be the child of an immigrant family, but she'd be a strong black female leading character
Yeah, the only time I've seen anyone's skin described as black or ebony is in the case of Drow. I usually don't pay much attention to such describers.
Ferideh and her sister are lead characters, no matter how you define it. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 18:38:55
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Thanks, Aldrick.
Here is Richard's response.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
My understanding is that they are not black, but they are somewhat dark-skinned, very definitely darker than the pale Thayans.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 18:55:46
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Now I'm curious to know if they have black skinned humans in the FR. I haven't read about places such as Maztica, Chult, or anything east of Mulhorand.
Personally, I think it's best to keep it kinda color neutral. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Why do we suddenly lack female leads?
