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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 11:54:03
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Hmm, just finished TLT. First thoughts are that the book read disjointed, a lot of stuff tacked on. Errtu's brief and somewhat pointless appearance, drow chasing aimlessly around after Drizzt and co and a tour around Icewind dale (tacked on).
Loved seeing Jaraxle back in proper action and the attack on the castle by the drow was pretty entertaining.
Dahlia however, continues to grate on me. I feel she is very one dimensional and find her angst along with Drizzt's to be a little too much. The ending was pretty much as I expected (disappointingly so). No way will Drizzt be killed off for real, he makes too much money for the publishers and I'm sure that he will be healed (probably by that red ring) and be back in action soon enough. The battle with Dahlia was rather pathetic. Drizzt is supposed to be the supreme warrior and yet once again he is caught off guard!?
In summary I will say that the book was better than the others in this latest series but a far cry from the sheer entertainment of the early adventures of Drizzt. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 01:30:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Drizzt is supposed to be the supreme warrior and yet once again he is caught off guard!?
I think that's always been a part of who Drizzt is. He's not a cold blooded, emotionless killer like Entreri. His one and only weakness is his heart and I think that's the Rob was trying to play up. I was less than satisfied with the ending as well. But I took it all in context. This book was hijacked by the upcoming Sundering events and thus was doomed to have this slapped together feel to it. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 12:44:21
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| How much you want to bet Drizzt comes back as a Demi-god??? |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 13:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Drizzt is supposed to be the supreme warrior and yet once again he is caught off guard!?
I think that's always been a part of who Drizzt is. He's not a cold blooded, emotionless killer like Entreri. His one and only weakness is his heart and I think that's the Rob was trying to play up. I was less than satisfied with the ending as well. But I took it all in context. This book was hijacked by the upcoming Sundering events and thus was doomed to have this slapped together feel to it.
I would just like him to learn from his past and grow up emotionally. Given the fact that he knows how unpredictable Dahlia is (he even knows the reason she has those earrings), it just made little sense to me. |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 01:10:56
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| I hate Dahlia, and not for the fact that she "killed" Drizzt. She's sunch a condescending bitch, I hope that Jarlaxle and/or Artemis deal with her once and for all in a very appropriate way for "killing" Drizzt. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 04:42:08
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I don't hate Dahlia, but I strongly dislike her. If she dies I won't be sad. I used to dislike Effron, but he has grown on me, and the only reason I'd be sad over Dahlia's death is because of the effect it might have on him.
@CEV: while I won't bet on it, I think Drizzt as a demi-god would be cool. He could work alongside Eilistraee (I'm hoping she comes back in 5e, since it is rumored all the dead gods are), and guide the drow. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 20 Apr 2013 04:43:17 |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 09:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I don't hate Dahlia, but I strongly dislike her. If she dies I won't be sad. I used to dislike Effron, but he has grown on me, and the only reason I'd be sad over Dahlia's death is because of the effect it might have on him.
Dahlia had a good story, but her teenage attitude got old real fast and it presisted for the entire saga, which really grated on me.
I do agree with you that I wasn't a fan of Effron either at the beginning, but I was really happy how his character evolved. I hope he becomes a major character down the road for Bob. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 12:58:40
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| I don't like the idea of Drizzt becoming any sort of god. One of the things I like about him is that he is a pure warrior, not some uber powerful being like Elminster etc. For all of his skill with his blades, he is still vulnerable to simple magic, I like that. Making him into a deity would kill off Drizzt's appeal entirely. |
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NightWight
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 23:33:54
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I stand corrected....even if it was by one of those kinda people. lol.
Good bye. |
NightWight |
Edited by - NightWight on 25 May 2013 09:01:12 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 23:41:37
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I don't think Gwen was actually on the Prime Material at that moment necessarily. Remember, he did not call her from the astral. I think he might have been moving through the astral sea (my understanding of the 4E cosmology is not great).
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 00:07:35
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If I remember right, hasn't Gwen been badly wounded to the point where she automatically went home to recover? I know she can only stay on the Prime Material plane for so long, perhaps once that time is up she automatically goes back?
Besides, the ending of TLC has Drizzt and Gwen at Bruenor's Climb atop of Kelvin's Cairn. He didn't call Gwen from her astral home, but he also doesn't remember out he ended up atop the 1,000-foot peak. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 01:18:51
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| Hasn't Guen gone home on her own, in the past? I seem to recall her forcibly extracting Regis from a bad situation by taking him with her, without being commanded to. I want to say that was in The Halfling's Gem. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 15:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hasn't Guen gone home on her own, in the past? I seem to recall her forcibly extracting Regis from a bad situation by taking him with her, without being commanded to. I want to say that was in The Halfling's Gem.
thats how I remember it too. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 16:06:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hasn't Guen gone home on her own, in the past? I seem to recall her forcibly extracting Regis from a bad situation by taking him with her, without being commanded to. I want to say that was in The Halfling's Gem.
thats how I remember it too.
This is what I thought, but it's been SOOOO long since I've read those older books. If this is the case, then I'm pretty sure Guen is alive and, hopefully, well. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 00:47:47
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| I hope this isn't the last we see of Guen |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2013 : 08:37:49
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quote:
Originally posted by NightWight
Ssoooo....this just something that's been bugging me since I read TLT. IF Drizzt is dead, does that mean he signed Gwen's death sentence too?
I haven't read the novel yet, so maybe there are some clues in there that you're overlooking or that you haven't shared here yet.
But why would Guen die, just because Drizzt possibly did? Guen's fate is tied to the statue. What is of import here is the status of the statue--not of Drizzt.
Josidiah Starym died a long time ago. But Guen lived on to fight another day. Masoj Hun'ett died in Homeland. And Guen outlived him, too.
quote:
I understand he may be coming back (with Gwen) in the Sundering books, but with his 'dying breath' he says "remember me" and not "go home". [...] Was this just an (imo, huge) oversight by RAS or what?
There's no reason to perceive an oversight on RAS's part, here.
But you seem to have omitted sharing the current status of the figurine, though. 
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It's already been stated numerous times through many Drizzt related books that the panther cannot survive in the Prime Material Plain and has to go back to the Astral Plain.
No, this has never been outright said.
Guen gets tired on the Material Plane, so the normal procedure is to dismiss her back to the Astral to renew her strength.
But that does not equate to her being unable to survive on the Material.
In the novel Siege of Darkness, during the Time of Troubles, her figurine was broken for over a tenday (SOD, P2:C9), with Guen stuck on the Material Plane. Guen grew quite sick and weak, but she survived. We are even told:
quote:
Guenhwyvar's condition had stabilized--apparently the panther could indeed remain on the Material Plane indefinitely--but the great cat was not in good health or good spirits. While she seemed no longer in danger of dying, Guenhwyvar roamed about in a state of perpetual exhaustion, muscles slack along her once sleek sides, eyes often closed as the panther tried to find desperately needed sleep. (italics added; SOD, P3:C13)
Elsewhere, we are also told:
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He [Drizzt] knew that she would heal well on the Astral Plane, knew that no injuries Guenhwyvar received on this plane of existence could ever truly harm her. (italics added; The Lone Drow, P1:C6)
While prolonged periods on the Material tire Guen's material form, 'twould appear that they don't do any serious damage to her.
At most, when she gets tired enough, she just self-dismisses to the Astral, and re-charges her batteries again.
quote:
I would hate to think she has to mope around Icewind Dale for a few days to a few weeks before just falling over dead because she can't get home on her own.
Again, what is the status of the statue? Is it broken? Where is it?
As long as the statue is not broken, and/or Guen's person is not magically isolated from it (as Draygo Quick had done in Charon's Claw), then Guen can freely self-dismiss to the Astral.
In the novel Exile, when Briza and Dinin come looking for Drizzt, he goes into his Hunter mode and defeats them both. Then he sics Guen on them. But when the siblings run away, Guen refuses to pursue. Drizzt gets upset with her, and bosses her around some more. Guen self-dismisses, as if to spite him (Exi., P1:C3).
'Twould seem that when Drizzt taught Guen that she could defy her previous, evil master Masoj, she must've also learned that she could defy him, too! 
<"All the women . . . who['re] independent . . . throw your hands up at me!">
So ever since, Guen has had the freedom to assert her own will, at least to some degree.
There have even been some instances when Guen's material form was badly injured, or when she had overstayed her standard time interval on the Material Plane, and Guen nevertheless didn't wish to leave out of loyalty to Drizzt, so Drizzt had to repeatedly insist to her that she go ahead and leave, for her own good. Such scenes illustrate the love that both characters have for one another, with Guen willingly enduring pain and torment on Drizzt's behalf, and with him begging her to cease her pain and torment by departing, even when it means hurting his odds of survival. But we shouldn't fail to see that in the end, Guen still has the ultimate say in these matters.
It probably has some connection to her origin tale, "Guenhwyvar". There, the wholly material dire panther freely chose to rush to Josidiah Starym's defense, as a gesture of gratitude to him for something nice he had done early in the story. She has been a willful female for as long as we have known her.
quote:
It seems to me, any way you slice it, RAS has a whole lot of explaining to do on that ending. To my mind, too much of it just doesn't mess and doesn't make sense. I really hope he figures it out in the next books, because I can honestly say TLT was the only book of his I almost tossed in the trash rather then put on the bookshelf and I've been reading his books for the past 20 years now.
You might want to go back and re-read some of those books, 'cause the answers to your confusion do seem to be in there. 
It's not too cool to imply that he has any explaining to do, or that it doesn't mesh or make sense, or that he needs to figure anything out, when he has offered viable foundations for this stuff in past works. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 05 May 2013 09:08:15 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2013 : 09:22:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hasn't Guen gone home on her own, in the past? I seem to recall her forcibly extracting Regis from a bad situation by taking him with her, without being commanded to. I want to say that was in The Halfling's Gem.
Aye, such a thing happened, but it actually goes back even earlier than that.
When the third Cryshal-Tirith tower began to crumble in The Crystal Shard, Guen fell over Regis and magically transported him out of the collapsing structure (TCSh, P3:C30) and took him to the Astral Plane (TCSh, P3:C31).
(In The Halfling's Gem, Regis used the figurine to dismiss her and himself from the Plane of Tarterus {THG, P3:C22}, as well as to return them both and a bunch of other astral cats to the Prime Material Plane later on {THG, P3:C23-C24}.) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 01:15:58
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We currently do not know where any of Drizzt's gear is. There was no sign of it after his death. So, we do not know where Guen's statue is.
I think RAS has laid the foundation for a lot of things in TLT for The Companions and forward.
Guen has never been a normal figurine of wonderous power, or whatever the magic item is called. Also remember when she came from the Astral to the Prime without being called to save Drizzt from the mind flayers? I know Beast knows which book that was.
She knew something was up with Drizzt and used the mind flayer to find her friend. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 02:37:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
Also remember when she came from the Astral to the Prime without being called to save Drizzt from the mind flayers? I know Beast knows which book that was.
She knew something was up with Drizzt and used the mind flayer to find her friend.
Exile, P4:C16. The illithids could see the magical "cord" linking the figurine to the panther's ethereal self on the Astral Plane, and they used that to plane-shift into the Astral, near her, in order to observe her. She didn't feel comfortable being spied on by such creepy creatures. Later, when the mindflayers decided to return to the Material, she latched onto one and went along for the ride (P4:C18).
So 'twould appear that a material being can latch onto her and go for a ride into the Astral, and she can latch onto another being visiting in the Astral and go for a ride to the Material.
The silver magical "cord" that links a being from the Material to the Astral is said to be somehow connected to a sort of "tunnel". When a being decides to plane-shift back and forth via the cord mechanism, the being is sometimes said to observe itself traveling through the associated tunnel.
Guen seems to have used the cord and tunnel provided by one illithid to get back to the Material.
Again, this illustrates that she has a personal will and assertiveness. But it does not demonstrate her self-effecting power, mentioned above. This time, she used someone else's link to the Material Plane to get back there, because she intended to go #$%^$%^^ on that illithid as soon as they both materialzed. She wanted to materialize while still latched onto said creature. So that's exactly what she did.
Heck, maybe she did self-recall her Astral body to the Material, and traveled along her own magical cord, just as the illithid traveled along its own? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 03:44:11
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| BEAST: Guen has also dismissed herself in Exile. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 19:10:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
BEAST: Guen has also dismissed herself in Exile.
Yeah, I cited one such instance of that, above.
Guen has dismissed herself lots of time in the books, whenever she was hurt extremely bad. I'm vaguely recalling a frost giant stomping her and Drizzt hearing a pitiful whine from her, and then she goes eerily silent. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 19:36:29
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One of the things that bugged me most about The Last Threshold was that Drizzt never called Guen back after his rescue. He dismissed her, went to Luskan, went to the Dale, went to the lake, slept for whatever # of years, went back to Bryn Shander, then got himself killed but never once in that huge time period did he call her after not seeing her for like a year of captivity? WTF Bob? She needed at most a week to recover after Draygo's capturing her and keeping her out of the Astral. Not years. The ending after Jarlaxle's rescue sure seems tacked together to me. Just my thoughts. Unless I missed him having a big reunion in there before he had his decades long nap Rip Van Drizztle style.
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Edited by - Seravin on 08 May 2013 19:37:37 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 20:53:06
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Oh, I fully agree that after Jarlaxle's rescue the rest of the story really felt tacked on just to fast-forward Drizzt and Company closer to the year of the Sundering.
But I don't think there's any problem with him not summoning Guen. Its not like he couldn't have done it several times without us knowing about it. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 04:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Oh, I fully agree that after Jarlaxle's rescue the rest of the story really felt tacked on just to fast-forward Drizzt and Company closer to the year of the Sundering.
I fully agree with this, especially because there was a build-up with Errtu, and then the battle with him is short, and the people blame Drizzt. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 19:48:02
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Yep, I hated the resolution for the Errtu problem. RAS should have just left him alone if he didn't have a good way to use him. In the previous book I thought it was awesome that Errtu would be back, but then he really sucked in The Last Threshold.
The scene was even worse for two reasons:
- 100 years of doing good and Drizzt still gets labeled a bad guy so easily.
- Errtu confusing Tiago with Drizzt seemed so stupid. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 15:38:28
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quote:
Its not like he couldn't have done it several times without us knowing about it.
Yes, that could be the case that they had a big cuddly reunion and Bob left that out. But you don't have a problem with Bob not writing their reunion? That's what cheeses me off! The Drizzt and Guen relationship is key to the last ~30 Drizzt books and deserves some "screen time". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 20:51:06
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| @Seravin and Tanthalas: I agree with both your statements |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 20:47:40
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I actually kind of liked the last book, and I also somewhat feel that it was about time to let Drizzt pass. Without letting him continue in the mental direction he was sort of taking in the first couple of books in the last series here, I kind of felt that the character had been taken about as far as it could go. And though I'd enjoy seeing a darker and more Drowlike Drizzt with his new set of companions, I doubt that the majority of the fans would want him developing in that direction.
The ending of The Last Threshold was somewhat disappointing to me though. It just felt rushed and inappropriate somehow. Personally I'd have preferred to have let Drizzt split off from his current companions (or have them break off from him), only to have him meet up with Errtu out in the wilds of Icewind Dale, have an epic battle ending with him banishing Errtu again, but dying in the effort, and then have his spirit go off and meet up with his lost friends in that pocket dimension, or whatever it is/was. If anything else, RAS could have ended it with Entreri speculating on Drizzt's fate after they left him in Icewind Dale. Sort of like one Drizzt's philosophical sections that's been scattered throughout all of the Drizzt books. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 21:05:45
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| I'll admit, it would actually be kind of interesting to see a "journal" of Entreri's. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2013 : 21:23:34
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First of all, I haven't read the book, but am going to buy it this weekend. I don't mind spoilers as I read the book for the adventure, not the information. I would imagine Jarlaxle, who is like a proud uncle of Drizzt, wouldn't let him TRULY die without a means to bring him back. Drizzt's equipment... Most likely taken by Jarlaxle for safe keeping. Drizzt may be a chosen and in death be brought back for some great deed or reason by his goddess. I'm sure Milikkie (sp) is very well aware of Drizzt's life as he is a ranger under her patronage.
As far as The cat... She was made in Myth Drannor by those elves and a companion of Josidiah Starym (sp). Starym was NOT killed and is NOT dead, but undead and trapped in another Prime Material Plane as a Gold Elf Vampire. The cat was Passed on to the drow by Starym's adventure in the Underdark. (no fault of the Starym elf). Jarlaxle prob has Guen. I can only imagine Drizzt will be back, and I hope it is so.
The Last Mythal Trilogy made it very clear you can call back Elven heroes that feel a purpose to complete something and live out their life on Faerun. Mention Guen to the elves of Myth Drannor that know of her beginning and creation and you will find young powerful elves on the hunt to retrieve a lost relic of their ancient kingdom.
Drizzt will be back and it is clear to see by the respect and admiration Jarlaxle has for Drizzt. "The one who got away."
Question... I LOVE Athrogate the Dwarf. Did he die in Gauntlegrym or did Jarlaxle save him? I hope he is alive, as I thought he was a fantastic companion for Jarlaxle.
Thanks... CEV.
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The Last Threshold (Spoilers BeWare)
