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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 21:14:05
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OK, wait, I just thought of something else that makes the timing of TOK's Prologue problematic. It speaks of King Obould VI. And the FRCG (4E), set in 1479 DR, speaks of King Obould XVII. We Candlekeep scribes have tried to make sense out of this apparent typo snafu through various means, but WOTC hasn't definitively clarified the issue, yet.
What is more important is that in the Prologue, Obould VI appears to still be on peaceful terms with his neighbors, who are known as the Silver Marches. This contrasts sharply with the state of affairs in the FRCG, which speaks of the league of Luruar, sans dwarves or orcs, and which describes the orcs of Many-Arrows as the enemies of Luruar.
Obviously, something must have gone wrong between these two periods in Realms time. The dwarves left the League of the Silver Marches, King Obould VI was somehow succeeded by Obould XVII, the orcs left the league, and the Silver Marches became known as Luruar (not necessarily in that precise order of events).
In the past, this helped lead me to conclude that the Prologue must have predated the FRCG. So I guesstimated the Prologue to be set about 1472 DR (100 years after the signing of the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge), with the FRCG being set in 1479 DR.
I totally forgot about this, when people started asking how the Prologue jibes with TLT. Woops! 
The Obould VI stuff seems to point toward a ~1472 DR for the Prologue, while the Guen/no-Dahlia/no-Entreri stuff seems to point toward a post-TLT/post-1486 DR date. I am not sure how to reconcile this, right now. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 21:24:30
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| Well, I always wrote it off as anti-orc propaganda by the backwards thinking good ol' boys at Wizards, but that's just me. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 22:15:52
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| I believe RAS also said that we cannot hold him too tightly to the pro/epilogues of TOK. Especially since the Spellplague had not occured, nor the idea for The Sundering to come. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 03:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
I believe RAS also said that we cannot hold him too tightly to the pro/epilogues of TOK. Especially since the Spellplague had not occured, nor the idea for The Sundering to come.
I wasn't around at the time, but are you sure that Salvatore wasn't aware of plans for the Spellplague and time jump when TOK was published? Though I'm sure that its something that will either be retconned or was vague enough to fit the timeline anyway.
Now that I've read the book (which I really liked byt he way):
Though on one hand Salvatore did try to clean up all of Drizzt's pending affairs (mainly Errtu), the way Drizzt "died" I can easily see him being brought back.
From the description of The Companions it really looks like the book will be about Drizzt in the afterlife reminiscing about his past.
Though, if Drizzt really is permanently died, it was a pretty crappy way to go (but at least it was marginally better than how Catti-Brie and Regis went). |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 16 Mar 2013 04:01:56 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 03:56:52
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Hey, I completely laid out the book for Bob on how Drizzt is supposed to carry Icingdeath in his left hand and Twinkle in his right, so the "Transitions" and "The Neverwinter Saga" books have kinda irked me by reversing that trend. When I asked him to provide an in-world explanation why, he just said that that's the way it is now.
So I totally get it that sometimes, you just gotta go with the flow, and embrace change. When reconciling all the zany amount of books and short stories and comics and sourcebooks in Bob's take on the Realms, we just gotta be happy with getting most of it to fit. It's a character-driven story, and not trivia-driven. Grin and bear it. And keep on reading! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 04:01:27
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| I could be wrong, but I think Salvatore did know about the Spellplague when he wrote TOK. For one thing, the pro/epi took place after the event, and I think it was mentioned in the prologue. Also, the book came out around the same time 4e did (a little before, but the Spellplague was in the works, so to speak). He might have felt he needed to include it somehow in the--at the time--latest Drizzt book. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 04:04:45
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Reading more of the responses here, I'm reminded of something that I really disliked in the book:
- Vampwent
Making him a vampire at the end of Charon's Claw just to have a measly chapter (not even that) of him in the story felt really lame. I imagine that Vampwent only happened for the comic book. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 06:58:23
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He definitely knew about it at the time- that doesn't mean he knew the full scope of it, about how everything would go down.
What he didn't know was where his own stories would go from there. He didn't know he'd be writing books around Neverwinter until shortly before he started, he didn't know Dhalia would become a main character(by his own admission, he figured shed die part way through Gauntlgrym), and by the time Gauntlgrym was released, he didn't know how Neverwinter Wood was going to end.
So I stand by my point of him essentially making it up as he goes along these days. Which isn't a terrible way to do it, it just is what it is. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Count Roland
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 09:17:58
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Anyhow my hope is Drittz goes on to become an Avatar meets Loath and somehow unites with Ryld Argith - then they can both go to The Underdark again and have an adventure with lots of bloodshed and lopped goblinoid heads... not sure what great sword Ryld would use though... but I am hoping he and Drittz can chop that evil 4 armed half drow freak to ribbons...
I am a Romantic in like mind of Don Quixote. It is by no accident I longed for a blue baby in the USMC and choose that path. Thusly I shun the gray protagonist books where the hero is anything less then kindly good and merciful... well ok I suppose Fafrd and the Grey Mouser books did have somewhat amoral thief heroes but they were mostly thieving from corrupt fat cats and the thief guild anyhow... The point is I did not like the way Drizzit was Artemis Entriet or Jarl Axe or may be Dahlia struggling with good and evil. But truly I rather grew tired of Dahlia's constant venom and cynical spaz attacks after the first neverwinter book and I would have rather she died early on and killed Efron as well- though he was not quite of a grating character as her - Now let me be clear I do not want to claim that Salvatore failed to write well- I too have rejected and never finished the "Brothers Karmzola" or however you spell that - since I disliked one of the characters so much.
It just that it seemed nice when Drizzit was a kind fellow and fought the Goblin hordes with Montechelo -or whatever his weird french nmae is - but then later he seems to become this indecisive guy who can not even separate himself from a raging brat girl who almost got him killed long ago in the previous book in Luskan for being a treacherous spaz - can not recall the exact details some way she went back on a agreement...
But, yes I too saw a lot of loose ends left about... and unless he is going to introduce a vampire PWent Battlerager sometime later I really would have liked to see the Battle Rager vamp to have poofed into ash as Drittz watched from concealment using his Ranger skillz... Those of you arguing that "the Realms" is not about Absolute goods and evils are mistaken - the Absolute Goods and Evils are Concrete gods and blasted plane dwellers. They are giving powers to clerics all through the known and unknown world. To argue that there is room for some gray area where you have a follower of this or that god is impossible. I guess I do remember some stuff about that fuge plane wall of the faithless thing too, but by and large most everyone is the realms is in service or fear of some bogey god, flapping dung tossing monkey bloodthirsty deity, war loving storm god, fairy forest piglet, or happy grain growing earth mama god. It should not be about good guys struggling to be with evil compatriots or not. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 10:52:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Count Roland
[...] Those of you arguing that "the Realms" is not about Absolute goods and evils are mistaken - the Absolute Goods and Evils are Concrete gods and blasted plane dwellers. They are giving powers to clerics all through the known and unknown world. To argue that there is room for some gray area where you have a follower of this or that god is impossible. I guess I do remember some stuff about that fuge plane wall of the faithless thing too, but by and large most everyone is the realms is in service or fear of some bogey god, flapping dung tossing monkey bloodthirsty deity, war loving storm god, fairy forest piglet, or happy grain growing earth mama god. It should not be about good guys struggling to be with evil compatriots or not.
I'll copy-paste a slightly modified text that I wrote about this matter in another scroll.
As I see it, good and evil are not something arcane or metaphysical, but only words used to define some kind of behaviour. Usually you call ''good'' someone whose goal and/or MO somehow improves the quality of other beings' lives, while you call ''evil'' someone who has no problem hurting other beings in order to achieve what he wants -often something that could be achieved by other means-, or someone whose goal simply is to make people's lives worse for the lulz. As you see, they're indeed defined each as the contrary of the other, and even the perception of such concepts can change depending on the point of view (in some cases someone who would normally be called evil, wouldn't see him/herself in such light, but he'd think that s(he) is on the right/good side). At the end of the day you have people who work to improve their condition on each ''side'', only with different MO. Of course there can be individuals who belong to the 'shady' area that could do both ''good'' and ''evil'', according to the situation and what it is required to achieve their goal (or their deity's).
That said, the outer planes and their inhabitants actually are the manifestation of certain mortals ideas and behaviour. For this reason your 'big moving forces' are nothing more than the by-product of things like tyrants' petty wishes for uber power at the expense of the others, sadistic pleasure in inflicting pain and so on when it comes to the ''evil side'', and the analogous emotions for the good side. ''multiversal good'' and ''evil'' ultimately boil down to something this concrete, the result of mortals' actions and of the concepts they create.
TLDR: it is mortals' ideas -not what race they belong to, not some random cosmic force which reduces every behaviour to two possible stereotypes- that define what evil and good are and shape their manifestations (outer planes). People always have a choice, not matter what deity they follow or what they are (as example: there are shady characters who work for a good deity, who wouldn't hesitate to do some 'dirty job' if it was needed); it makes little sense to talk about absolutes when it comes to concepts whose definition is so slippery and relative, IMO.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Mar 2013 10:58:48 |
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Count Roland
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 12:01:35
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| Ok so you might have a utilitarian relativism world view- or not. I am not arguing that- I already argued that with my left leaning university professors on that. But, it may be that your ideals are reflecting on a novel unreal place. However, this FR setting is not the real world. This is a fantasy universe with pretend ideals of perfect good and perfect evil. A tyrant crushes his peasants and bows down to a Lawful evil god who applauds him. His behavior is pleasing and he gives carved monkey livers and stolen serf dolls on his altar of the big baddy god. This makes the Lawful evil god stronger. There is no sort of relativistic idea that his behaviors are viewed by him as good so they are in effect good. They are evil. It is a universe of goods and evils. It is not about concepts created by naughty humans, god palidins, and evil Fish men who roast poor human slaves and smile as they cry for lemons. It is about a god(s) who exist and acts according to his perfect desire based on his character- not a unseeable unknowable nebulous ideal that is brought itno being by a serf somewhere working hard and not cheating and tyrant somewhere beating serfs and not forgiving. If the paladin is good and says "praise be to Helm I have picked up a banana peel- now the road is safe." he has enforced law order and good- thus his act is making Helm stronger- but if all paladins and good guys suddenly decide killing defenseless monkeys with sharpened sticks in a cage is nice it does not make it good and kind. Their behaviors will be evil. They then turn and worship a chaotic evil god. All of them. Then Helm dies of lack of attention. But he was a real thing. He is not a pretend ideal that was formed from ideals and tendencies. That is how I see it from my games. But, I am way way way out of the rule book/game scene so maybe in the new D and D universe you are correct. If so though I deny that Fantasy realms existence and favor my own fancy of a evil monkey demigod and kindly helm of forgotten realms. So, Driitzz is a wuss to much in the book, and the Unicorn god should have trod him with an angry my little pony avatar for his baddy buddy buddy kissing. But, that might be poor reading... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 13:45:41
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I know what you mean, and I didn't mean that evil outsiders (including gods) are not real. They are indeed 'concrete' beings, but they also are the by-product of mortal ideas and behaviours, it's pretty much the definition of outsiders and outer planes. At the end of the day mortals don't have cosmic forces who shoehorn them into definite stereotypical courses of actions, they can choose; it is the beings and places made up of ideas that are influenced by mortal belief.
Followers of a god can do stuff in conflict with his/her/its teachings (sometimes it could even be the best choice to actually reach an important goal for the faith), and they won't see said deity descending from the skies to purge them with godly magic for that. People can act as they please and not fear divine retribution beyond seeing their divine-given powers being taken away, AFAIK -unless you worship Lolth or some other stupidly annoying and meddling deity who wants to have control even over the time you go to the bathroom-. However, that's not saying that deities can't their agents to stop someone who's ruining their plans, only that they can't smite someone because he/she doesn't act as they wish.
That said, mortals' actions and ideas shouldn't be imposed by their race or god, there should be the possibility of choice and the ability of adapting to the situation (again, a ''good'' guy choosing the 'shady' method to compete a vital task because said course of action is the best/only one to employ is a good thing IMO -as long as it doesn't become a trick to show how 'kewl' and 'badass' the character is). If it wasn't that way, characters would be kinda depth-less and boring, their decisions predictable and plots dull (even tho WotC recent choices lead me to believe that they actually want to utterly obliterate this kind of depth when it comes to the drow). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Mar 2013 13:53:11 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 15:09:15
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Well, I for one and am not saying absolute good and absolute evil do not exist within the context of the D&D multiverse. And I don't completely agree with Irennan's assessment of them being formed by the ideals of mortals- it was an interesting concept planescape brought to the table, but it doesn't necessarily apply to the whole of D&D- many settings have the concepts existing before mortals did, the gods and outsiders that represent them existing before mortals did.
I simply don't believe that good and evil should be drawn on racial lines. Orcs, goblinoids, drow, chromatic dragons- these things aren't made of evil. They may have been shaped and influenced by evil gods with evil intent but they are mortals possessed of free will. Writing them off as evil just to alleviate any moral quandaries about killing them cheapens the experience of the game. Labeling something as evil just to justify their wholesale slaughter at the hands of the heroes, whether it be the characters of a novel or the pc's of a campaign, to me is utterly offensive. Killing should never be something that is done lightly.
Now, I'm not saying I want characters to break down crying "My gods, what have I done?!" every time they kill a goblin. When you're in a battle, a life or death scenario, you should be prepared to kill without hesitation regardless of who or what your enemy is. But it should never be "okay" just because your enemy is of another race.
Devils. Demons. Yugoloths/daemons. Demodands. These creatures are the true and absolute evils of the d&d universe. They are the ones who literally have evil infused into their physical beings. It's on the planar level that things become black and white. Not the mortal one. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 15:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Well, I for one and am not saying absolute good and absolute evil do not exist within the context of the D&D multiverse. And I don't completely agree with Irennan's assessment of them being formed by the ideals of mortals- it was an interesting concept planescape brought to the table, but it doesn't necessarily apply to the whole of D&D- many settings have the concepts existing before mortals did, the gods and outsiders that represent them existing before mortals did.
Well, Planescape features were valid for the Realms in 2e, and some of its concepts kept being used even in 3e AFAIK (I have no clue about 4e). So, one could argue that 'primeval' outsiders are the embodiment of concepts that don't need sentient beings in order to exist (like magic. We have creature, like the primordials, that are the manifestation of these kind of forces). However evil and good can be defined only in relation to intelligent life perspective (and their definition even varies accordingly to the one who gives it), so it makes sense to me to say that evil and good planes are the by-product of these ideas and not something intrinsically related to the Multiverse (assuming that the Planescape view of such things is still valid in the Realms). Now I don't know if the outer planes were already there when intelligent life came to be, so I may very well be wrong.
quote:
It's on the planar level that things become black and white. Not the mortal one.
This. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 17:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
I believe RAS also said that we cannot hold him too tightly to the pro/epilogues of TOK. Especially since the Spellplague had not occured, nor the idea for The Sundering to come.
I wasn't around at the time, but are you sure that Salvatore wasn't aware of plans for the Spellplague and time jump when TOK was published? Though I'm sure that its something that will either be retconned or was vague enough to fit the timeline anyway.
What I said was the Spellplague had not happened yet, not that RAS did not know about it.When TOK was written, Mystra was still alive in the setting. I am sure that it was known about already since 4e was knocking, but to the characters, it had not occured.
The Sundering I do not think was on the radar however. I could be wrong, but I think that is a more "recent" idea that came about post Spellplague backlash. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 17:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Reading more of the responses here, I'm reminded of something that I really disliked in the book:
- Vampwent
Making him a vampire at the end of Charon's Claw just to have a measly chapter (not even that) of him in the story felt really lame. I imagine that Vampwent only happened for the comic book.
This plot idea was explored in a comic series that was pretty entertaining. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 19:08:47
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4E was kinda dropped on the authors from upon high, and they just had to accept it and work with it. Bob wrote the TOK, Prologue, with a general understanding of where 4E would require him to go, and he began the "Transitions" mini-series, with that dark, ominous feeling that the 4E was going for. He's been in the process of working toward all that stuff in the Prologue.
In the middle of doing that, while writing "The Neverwinter Trilogy/Saga", the publisher decided to start extensive work on another new edition. But this time, it wasn't as unilateral and/or sudden, and Bob has had more time to try to work out his next transition.
So he's now working toward the state of affairs at the heart of the 5E, before he ever even finished getting to the state of affairs described in the 4E!
I could totally see it if some of the earlier planned elements might get lost in the shuffle. It's like we're flying from New York to Delhi, and we've got to make three connecting flights with very minimal layover in between, and we've got lots of baggage to account for on all of our stops. How much of all that baggage is absolutely critical, versus our need to make the next flight and get to our final destination?
I wonder which version of events should win out: Obould VI/peaceful orcs/Silver Marches (TOK, Prologue), or Obould XVII/orcs as enemies/Luruar (FRCG)? Might this be an opportunity for Bob to really push this idea of peace with the orcs, even further? To basically overwrite that particular content in the last edition of FR?
Maybe Obould XVII goes to Abeir, and Obould VI remains on Toril, when the worlds are torn asunder, once again? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 19:38:15
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Since orcs are the topic, has anyone ever asked Bob about his original plans for Obould's uprising? I heard in a recorded Q&A for The Ghost King that Bob had planned to kill Obould in The Thousand Orcs. I wonder what direction he'd envisioned the following two novels to go.
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"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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piratebbbb
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 03:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by piratebbbb
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Then we also have to consider that Guen is back, but there is no sign of Dahlia or Entreri in Prologue. That would seem to point to some time after The Last Threshold. So perhaps after 1486 DR?
I was thinking exactly this. Would this count as irrefutable evidence that Drizzt still lives on, or at least comes back?
No, I would not jump to such a conclusion of certainty, just yet. That's why I said "perhaps".
I can catalog what Bob has written and gotten published so far, with a fair degree of confidence, but I am very hesitant to project the future for his stories. That is for him and the publisher to decide. I am just a lowly scribe.
I'm not as learned or well-read in the Realms as BEAST, but I recall a page or two where Drizzt and party, shortly after coming back north, visit Clan Battlehammer for a few days (EDIT: I found the passage, and it says they were there for a celebration that "went on for many days". Then a tenday after that they left. Pg333 hardcover of The Last Threshold). I'm most likely grasping at straws here, but could Drizzt have had enough time to catch up on what's happening in the local land, head out for a stroll, come across the situation in the prologue of The Orc King, and return to Clan Battlehammer? It may be far-fetched, but I think the timing in accordance with the FRCG (4E) that BEAST cited would be somewhat accurate (I believe it would be the correct time for Obould VI to be around, but I have not read much about this specific topic so this is a complete guess), plus it would explain the absence of the rest of the party as well as the presence of Guen. Any thoughts on this? Again, I admit that I may be leaping mightily to far-flung conclusions but this mystery is kind of bugging me. |
Edited by - piratebbbb on 17 Mar 2013 03:58:49 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 04:46:26
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quote:
Originally posted by piratebbbb
[...] I recall a page or two where Drizzt and party, shortly after coming back north, visit Clan Battlehammer for a few days (EDIT: I found the passage, and it says they were there for a celebration that "went on for many days". Then a tenday after that they left. Pg333 hardcover of The Last Threshold). I'm most likely grasping at straws here, but could Drizzt have had enough time to catch up on what's happening in the local land, head out for a stroll, come across the situation in the prologue of The Orc King, and return to Clan Battlehammer? It may be far-fetched, but I think the timing in accordance with the FRCG (4E) that BEAST cited would be somewhat accurate (I believe it would be the correct time for Obould VI to be around, but I have not read much about this specific topic so this is a complete guess), plus it would explain the absence of the rest of the party as well as the presence of Guen. Any thoughts on this? Again, I admit that I may be leaping mightily to far-flung conclusions but this mystery is kind of bugging me.
Is this after the imprisonment by Quick, but before the 18-year time jump to Icewind Dale/Iruladoon? I'm guessing ~1468 DR or so? If so, it sounds like this passage might be somewhat workable. Timing wise, that would let Drizzt squeeze in a good fight with some CCC thugs and a good little retrospection time with Hralien. Good find! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 17 Mar 2013 04:54:07 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 17:19:45
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| Beast: Yes, it is after his imprisonment and Jaraxle says get out of Dodge. That is 1466 per Jaraxle. They head to Icewind Dale, visit the dwarves, then take their nap. When they wake up and return to Ten Towns, it is 1484. So, I am not sure if that is workable since he was asleep from 1466 to 1484. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 19:29:32
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OK, if Quick imprisons them for a year, is that in Neverwinter?
Is there no mention of them heading back east toward the vicinity of Mithral Hall and the Moonwood? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 20:38:30
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He imprisons them in the Shadowfell,in his castle. After their rescue, they use a portal to Luskan, then they head to Icewind Dale the next day. No trip to the Silver Marches. Of course we have to see what happens in Cutter starting next month.
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piratebbbb
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 21:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
He imprisons them in the Shadowfell,in his castle. After their rescue, they use a portal to Luskan, then they head to Icewind Dale the next day. No trip to the Silver Marches. Of course we have to see what happens in Cutter starting next month.
Oops, I made a mistake. They get to Icewind Dale and they first visit Clan Battlehammer underneath Kelvin's Cairn for about two weeks. Although the time would be approximately correct, I think they are too far west for Drizzt to head out and meet the CCC group, unless Obould's lands stretch far west of Mithral Hall. This is all assuming my geography is accurate, of course.
EDIT: There is a chance Drizzt mounts Andahar and goes far to the east, but maybe not.
EDIT2: I heard somewhere that Pwent is mentioned in the Neverwinter Tales comic series, so now I want to buy them. I believe there are five issues of it, but I want to get them all. I found http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Legend-Drizzt-Neverwinter/dp/1613771568/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363564187&sr=8-1&keywords=neverwinter+tales and I can't tell if it's all of them in one or not. Is this what I'm looking for? |
Edited by - piratebbbb on 17 Mar 2013 23:53:50 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 00:08:25
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quote:
Originally posted by piratebbbb
EDIT2: I heard somewhere that Pwent is mentioned in the Neverwinter Tales comic series, so now I want to buy them. I believe there are five issues of it, but I want to get them all. I found http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Legend-Drizzt-Neverwinter/dp/1613771568/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363564187&sr=8-1&keywords=neverwinter+tales and I can't tell if it's all of them in one or not. Is this what I'm looking for?
Yeppers, that's it.
It's a hardcover graphic novel collection of all 5 comics. It's got both alternative front cover art pics for each issue, plus the back cover art for each issue.
I wouldn't call it all that important of a storyline. But if you're a completist, you'll want it, just because.
I set the book out on a shelf top often, just to admire that cover. Drizzt looks as buff as Zak, there! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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geok1ng
Acolyte
Brazil
9 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 18:10:12
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The climax of the reading for me was when Drizzt starts a discussion about the moral outlines of good and evil. I said to my wife that modern philosophy states that maturity is the time for moral questions, since only a mind innocent or immature can maintain a black and white view of life.
That being said it was good for me see drizzt renew the old chaotic good alignment with some strange allies. Better still that RAS found a way to avoid motherkillingson situatiuons with dahlia.
But all the good solutions RAS put on the moral balance were destroyed by the abuse of Deus ex Machina situations along the book:
First Draigo quick, a high level shade warlock is twarted by kimmuriel and ilithids, and since gromph on the war of the sipder wueen, ilithids lost most of the "invencible weapon against spellcaster" they had. Quick utterly failed as a high level evil shade warlock on that debacle.
Second Deus ex Machina on the 18 y sleep
Third Deus ex Machina in the end with Drizzt body missing.
Along my complains i would like to add that dahlia becomes insufferable towards the end: Drizzt reject her countless times along the book, she did not put a diamond for entreri and adter coming almost OK with he unsolved issues with effron, she goes back to the tantrum of killing former lovers? If anything Effron and Entreri showed her that life is more than bed hopping and killing former lovers. Dahlias explosion in the end serves just as an excuse to remove Drizzt from the novels for a time and allow him to talk with ghosts from the past.
RAS has finally tackled the huge mishap that cattibrie and regis "deaths" were, but in the process made things even more lame.
A Drizzt book where the greatest battles are fought by jarlaxle and tiago baenre. This is The Last Threshold.
Forget about good deaths like Cadderly or Bruenor, RAS is getting sloppy.
And please if WOTC is reading this: do not bring back ryld argith as suggested above: lame Resurrections already spoiled pharaoun myrzzim char, ryld and other heroes from the war of the spider queen do not deserve it. But i would accept that the sundering somehow allowed Alistra melarn to pay lolth back. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 19:03:15
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Just finished this book today. What a huge meandering mess.
Long stretches with very little happening, peppered with seemingly random resolutions to many previous plot threads. The Pwent handwave, the Jarlaxle-Entreri "oh, mind was wiped, sorry," the flip-flopping of Dahlia, the random insertion of Errtu, the entire "let's save Port Llast" thread, the constant attention paid to Tiago and company where nothing happens, the capture and save from Draygo, and then the 18-year jump (why?) and "death"? All of it was pseudo-dreamy and treated many previously important plotlines like they should just be wrapped up in two seconds. Horrible.
And Drizzt obviously isn't dead. He's been taken away by either a goddess or by Jarlaxle, though the latter would be a complete stretch.
As bad as this book was, I can't honestly say it's making me look forward to anything else. If the Sundering is a bizarre resolution/wrap-up like this, I want no part of it.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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piratebbbb
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 19:18:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Just finished this book today. What a huge meandering mess.
Long stretches with very little happening, peppered with seemingly random resolutions to many previous plot threads. The Pwent handwave, the Jarlaxle-Entreri "oh, mind was wiped, sorry," the flip-flopping of Dahlia, the random insertion of Errtu, the entire "let's save Port Llast" thread, the constant attention paid to Tiago and company where nothing happens, the capture and save from Draygo, and then the 18-year jump (why?) and "death"? All of it was pseudo-dreamy and treated many previously important plotlines like they should just be wrapped up in two seconds. Horrible.
And Drizzt obviously isn't dead. He's been taken away by either a goddess or by Jarlaxle, though the latter would be a complete stretch.
As bad as this book was, I can't honestly say it's making me look forward to anything else. If the Sundering is a bizarre resolution/wrap-up like this, I want no part of it.
While I agree with you completely on pretty much every point you made, most of them did not seem like the final resolution. Due to the massive disappointment in the way things were handled in The Last Threshold, I have taken the optimistic view on future books and hope that there are surprises waiting for us. This book, I had thought, was supposed to be a resolution to the Neverwinter Saga, but now that I've read it the book seems to be a transition into the events of the Sundering while also keeping things up in the air. All the threads started through this saga allow for many stories to be continued, as well as the main intrigue involved with whatever the Sundering will bring to Drizzt and both of his groups of companions. |
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pazuzzu
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 20:00:14
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i really took most of this book somewhat existentially...it was too erratic otherwise. s$#% happens then you get your teeth kicked in by a neurotic ex-lover. BUT the gods have big plans for you..just no ones sure which one it is.
drizzt could handle just about anything in confrontation but was totally naive in terms of dealing with the random behaviors of his new dysfunctional "family". trying to understand just seemed to make him more confused and outcast(again), so still not having any place in whichever society he finds himself in...now that his friends are taking dirt naps. killing him was fine since the whole god character thing always seems to slowly disintegrate into stale and boring future novels with fewer and fewer readers caring.
i thought the nap thing was the ring from jarlaxle..and that guen was who took him away at the end or whatever the heck happened. from sundering 3: quote:
"Captured by Netherese agents and locked away in a prison camp, Farideh quickly discovers her fellow prisoners are not simply enemies of Netheril, but people known as Chosen who possess hidden powers, powers that Netheril is eager to exploit—or destroy."
maybe quick had left some neato tricks with guen since effron seemed to suggest quick's specialty was prisons. now he's wrapped, packed and sent to the prison camp to debate crappy ideas on moral relativism with elminster 
but dear god as a cat lover i was ballin like a 12 year old girl at that ending. wasnt paying a lot of attention and kind of dozing off, them blamo..out comes him telling guen to never forget him and splat. poor guen...drizzt meh, he was on borrowed time anyhow. ;p
and question..wasnt guen actually a sort of pseudo-cat goddess or something? i vaguely remember reading that somewhere. since he went "ballz out, kill everything and figure it out later" in trying to rescue her maybe she was allowed to remove the shackles of her figurine and come taxi him away from bleeding to death in the snow? idk..maybe trying to understand it is futile since the authors seem have their own shackles from wotc high ups and us mortals just gotta deal with it  and hi, 1st post after lurking since...bg1 days or even before that maybe :ţ
Mod edit: change the CODE to a QUOTE, because it was stretching out the page.  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Mar 2013 14:23:58 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 20:27:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
and then the 18-year jump (why?)
I'm pretty sure that the 18 year time jump is there so that the human monk is still around. Because yeah, I also didn't see a point to having all of them in "suspended animation" for 18 years.
quote:
Originally posted by pazuzzu
"Captured by Netherese agents and locked away in a prison camp, Farideh quickly discovers her fellow prisoners are not simply enemies of Netheril, but people known as Chosen who possess hidden powers, powers that Netheril is eager to exploit—or destroy.
I hadn't read this before. I hope there won't be several unheard of chosen popping up in that book.
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Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 18 Mar 2013 20:29:00 |
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The Last Threshold (Spoilers BeWare)
