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Raknirok
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2013 :  00:25:40  Show Profile Send Raknirok a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Poor Drizzt :(
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2013 :  01:13:14  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Hmm if I may interject my opinion here: The real world analogy would be if we applied one "evil" run kingdom in the Realms (Thay? Zhentil Keep?) to the Soviets or Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan; of course some citizens inside are not bad, hate the leaders, and with different rulers the entire land may become allies with its former enemies.

If so, then you need to consider how it can be true. What is it about those people that allows them to rise above the general prevailing view of their countries or governments?

And then what is it about orcs that makes you think they couldn't do the same? How do you know that about them? Upon what source or foundation do you reach that conclusion?

And upon what basis do you dismiss RAS and his Realms stories' depiction of them?

quote:
When it comes to orcs, in D&D terms, they are inherently evil and chaotic.

What is your basis for that?

The 3.5E MM said of their alignment that they are "Often chaotic evil" (italics added). There's nothing of their innate, inherent moral quality, there.

It is my understanding that orcs are taught of millenia-long attrocities perpetrated against them, and that they are taught that this warrants retaliatory attrocities. Clearly, to some considerable extent, they are evil because they are taught to be that way. Indeed, in the 1E MM, they were described as "Lawful evil".

And it is my understanding that this actually is similar to the teachings of the drow Academy of Menzoberranzan, as well.

The precise origin of evil in evil races is something that Bob's Drizzt books have asked, but have never presumed to definitively answer.

quote:
By making an entire kingdom of orcs civilized, it really is kind of an afront to how orcs have been developed in D&D ruleset over the years.

I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that there is an entire kingdom of civilized orcs. They have formed a kingdom and settled, and their leaders have entered into a truce, but--again--that hardly speaks to all orcs within that kingdom.

The Prologue of The Orc King tell of ongoing troubles within the Kingdom of Many-Arrows well into the 1400s. Common orcs continue to perpetrate wrongs against their neighbors, which embarrass and ashame their king, while the neighbors sweep things under the rug or overlook them, which only serves to embarrass and shame the king further. Meanwhile, shamans within his own kingdom rail against the unsteady peace, and demand a return to the old ways, with a looming threat that something major is about to happen within the kingdom. This is hardly indicative of all orcs having become civilized. It's only a veneer of civilization, at best.

quote:
I'm biased though, I hated the Thousand Orcs books and The Orc King; it really turned me off for a bunch of reasons. Not the least of which is this turning orcs into a peaceful trading civilization with dwarves.

None of those books did that, though. "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy" depicted the orcs as warlike and conquering to the very end. And TOK ended with a truce and the hope of continued peace, with more hope of future trade. But at that point, such was only an unfulfilled lot of hope, and nothing more.

My discomfort with the books was not how they presented the possibility that some orcs could become goodly, or how they could impress upon their evil or neutral fellow orcs to give peace a chance. They had to start somewhere, so that made as believable a start as anything.

No, my discomfort was with the victims of the rise of King Obould agreeing to make peace with him. He did not deserve peace, or forgiveness, or anything but a blade and a fireball. His vision of peaceful trade and coexistence never blotted out the red that I continued to see with my own eyes: the red blood of all his victims. That the goodly races would ever get chummy with him never sat well with me.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">

Edited by - BEAST on 11 Mar 2013 01:33:10
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2013 :  01:46:17  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
What is your basis for that?


Gary Gygax.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2013 :  03:23:00  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished the book last night, and overall, I enjoyed it more than the last three books, despite the ending. Pwent's appearance did feel a bit pointless, though, as did Errtu's. It was sort of...random, but Bob likely intended it to be that way. I wouldn't mind seeing Drizzt become some sort of demi-god, but it's been hinted at that in the Sundering, all the gods who were dead are coming back, so maybe that includes E and V, too--though it sounds like WotC is hardly interested in their followers. It's like "oh, they're back, end of story. We'll just include them in the list of deities". If that is so, it's disappointing, to say the least.

I liked the intrigue in the book concerning the gods. Salvatore doesn't deal with the gods much, so it was kind of refreshing for me. If Drizzt is a Chosen of Lolth, then it sounds like Mielikki was trying to shield him from her eyes. Maybe he is a Chosen of both? All speculation, of course, but it has me curious, especially with the Sundering approaching.

My throat tightened a little when Drizzt died (or supposedly), even though I knew it was coming, but it was a little comforting to know he was reunited with Catti. I admit, I like happy endings (or at least semi-happy endings. No ending is going to be flowers and rainbows), and I am a hopeless romantic--though in my personal life, I like being single. So, a reunion with the CotH and Zak (I am going to keep insisting on him, yup yup) would make me happy. This, of course, will likely only occur in Drizzt's true death, but it would make me happy and breathe easier.

I never liked Dahlia. What happened to her was awful, but it didn't mean I liked her. And I didn't like that everyone just sort of...accepted he was gone. Effron, at least, should have cared. But it was like Cadderly's death. Even Danica just sort of, went a long with it. But, I am glad Drizzt realized his heart was still for Catti-brie. Perhaps that wasn't healthy, but it was better than him being with Dahlia. All they did was fight baddies and have sex. That is not a healthy relationship. If they loved each other, they should just be able to enjoy each other's company and hang out. But since Dahlia has a tendency to kill her lovers...look out Entreri.

And speaking of Entreri, I would have liked to have seen more interaction between him and Jarlaxle. Their contact was too brief. I've always liked Jarl, so I'd like to see more of him, too. And Valas, as well. Kimmuriel both irks me, and makes me like him, sort of like Gromph did in WotSQ.

Anyway, TLT raises a lot of question, and I hope the Companions continues where it left off. Here's to hoping!

Sweet water and light laughter
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2013 :  04:08:11  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

quote:
What is your basis for that?

Gary Gygax.

Please cite a verifiable document.

The two words "Gary" and "Gygax" don't tell me that orcs are inherently evil. They just tell me a man's name.

BTW, that same man authored the 1E MM, and as I mentioned, that book said that orcs were "Lawful evil". They're evil, sure, but they follow orders. They're taught to be that way.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Count Roland
Acolyte

9 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2013 :  10:08:09  Show Profile Send Count Roland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks everyone for the insights and heartfelt opinions on the nature of evil and if a a society can be evil innately by default. I would argue that the Fantasy -Not real world - theological nature of the forgotten realms make some races evil as a hard and fast rule. Drow of course are a fine example. They all must bow to lady loath an evil god by nature and all intents. In the same way we have orcs who all respect and fear their clerics who derive power from Helm.... opps One Eye the elf hating evil god. Humans can worship neutral, chaotic, good, lawful or evil gods- thus they can be any alignment.... But, please we need not mix candy apple unicorn gods with orange skinned sour devil demigods OK.... that is to say of course Hitler and Stalin and the heart eating slave keeping Mexican society had many good people in them... even the evil Nazi general was kind to the 'panio player' in the biographical movie.... but that is real life where most every relgion has some kind of nice nice tenets and beliefs... show me a society that followed a Drow sort of bloodthirsty god that slayed their kids and tortured for sport as well as having big orgy sex drug parties like in 'Homeland' there never was one that evil and never will be... so trying to equate human and orc society together is fantasy - that is one is real and possible and the other will never be.... so yes I do agree that there is good and evil in the forgotten realms world self evident in cleric spells that heal and harm.... I bet all of you would be bowing down and serving the god of a shaman in Africa or a faith healer in Alabama if you came to him near death with grevious visible wounds and he wiped them away like the poor guy who was healed of a trident wound in the besieged city by the dwarf cleric...

so my argument is that Driitz is either extremely dumb or more likely in denial and not wanting to be under any god that would have him and shares his ethics because he is afraid he will be forced to serve like he was forced to at least outwardly serve the spider goddess. On the other hand I still kind of feel Salvatore was making driitz his own little exestinial Sarte voice to the detriement of the concrete and hard spiritual and god hierarchy system that is framed in the forgotten realms.

I still liked the book and I do say selfishly may the Big God bless Salvatore with a long life. But, though I see your point of Driitz becoming blasé and apathetic about life after his final companions death, I still think he would Not choose to party with any evil sorts longer than absolutely needed.... If I was in a d and d group playing a chaotic good ranger and kept hiring or assisting some known evil sorts the wise DM would say my alingnment has begun to shift and my smiley unicorn god has sent a pack of fifty blink dawgs to dog pile me until I was smothered into regret and reconciled to be a goody again.-

Edited by - Count Roland on 11 Mar 2013 10:25:38
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2013 :  20:03:45  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Count Roland

I would argue that the Fantasy -Not real world - theological nature of the forgotten realms make some races evil as a hard and fast rule. Drow of course are a fine example. They all must bow to lady loath an evil god by nature and all intents. In the same way we have orcs who all respect and fear their clerics who derive power from Helm.... opps One Eye the elf hating evil god. Humans can worship neutral, chaotic, good, lawful or evil gods- thus they can be any alignment....

You seem to be contradicting yourself. Realmslore tells us that the tenets of these various faiths are taught to the various races, which means that the members of the races are indoctrinated to have certain alignments. They are brainwashed into certain paradigms. RAS gave us a very good look at how that process is carried out with Menzoberranyr drow. But it's likely no different with any of the other races.

Humans have a plethora of gods, and so, they have a plethora of different alignments that they have been indoctrinated with.

The difference is likely because of a greater number of human PCs earlier in the history of the game, with a greater variety of options being provided to them. The NPC monster races were probably shortchanged a comparable degree of theological diversity, but if the races were around in the Realms for similarly lengthy periods of time, then they probably rightfully should have been afforded a similar divine--and alignment--diversity as to what humans have been afforded.

But none of this is indicative of innate, inborn alignment. You have only helped to support my point. All the races have complex systems in place to inculcate their members with ideologies, moralities, and alignment tendencies. Those theologies bring about the prevailing patterns that we observe in their associated races.

It is laziness on our parts to only want to consider the outcomes, and then write off whole races as evil, without considering the known contributing factors. And it is cowardice to refuse to consider the possibility--even probability--that there might be a whole lot more "Drizzt"'s out there, of every race, than what we already know about.

Far easier, funner, and more convenient to just think of them as evil fodder, and to leave it at that.

quote:
But, please we need not mix candy apple unicorn gods with orange skinned sour devil demigods OK.... that is to say of course Hitler and Stalin and the heart eating slave keeping Mexican society had many good people in them... even the evil Nazi general was kind to the 'panio player' in the biographical movie.... but that is real life where most every relgion has some kind of nice nice tenets and beliefs...

Even the Menzo drow believe that once a year, drow should show acts of kindness to random strangers in celebration of the Founding Day, per "The Fires of Narbondel", Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, and Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue. (BTW, RAS was not involved in any of this lore, so don't blame him for that!)

What if other random acts of kindness by other races have been ignored or censored?

quote:
show me a society that followed a Drow sort of bloodthirsty god that slayed their kids and tortured for sport as well as having big orgy sex drug parties like in 'Homeland' there never was one that evil and never will be...

Again, you are ignoring the basis for all of that: they are taught to be that way. You acknowledge that they have a theology, but then you turn around and blame the individual members of the races or religions personally. There is a great deal of power within organized religion, especially when it is entwined with political power in the form of a theocracy. Why do you seemingly lay all the responsibility at the individuals' feet, when the theocracy claims all the authority/power? "With great power comes great responsibility." --Uncle Ben

Since there never has been a society as bad as some of the ones we've read about in the Realms, then we should ask ourselves whether or not the ones in the Realms were ever as bad as they have been described. Is it possible that they've just been given a bad rap? Have their wrongdoings been exaggerated, in order to bolster the goodly races' claims of victimhood and justification in retaliation? (This certainly has been offered up as the explanation for the evil races' such claims.)

quote:
so trying to equate human and orc society together is fantasy - that is one is real and possible and the other will never be....

It has been hinted at here and there in the sourcebooks that, yes, the kind of evil societies we see like with the drow could not possibly be sustainable without a hell of lot of magical cheating going on by the respective deities.

But the presence of divine magic need not cause us to throw our hands up in the air and abandon all thought of finding parallels between the fantasy world and the real one.

Should we summarily say that fantasy swords are nothing to fear, because they're merely fantasy swords (like it's some sort of derogatory term), instead of real ones? Of course not. Magic may help out quite a bit, here and there, but a sword is a sword is a sword, and it should be taken seriously when wielded by the proper bearer.

Similarly, the power of a theocracy to mold large masses of people to a particular moral tendency should not be discounted. And we should not be so quick to write off all of the individual members of those populations as universally this way or that, just because of neat little stat block lines in reference books.

Neither Real World reality, nor Fantasy World reality, are as simple as that.

(But I still hate the idea of peace with Obould! )

quote:
so my argument is that Driitz is either extremely dumb or more likely in denial and not wanting to be under any god that would have him and shares his ethics because he is afraid he will be forced to serve like he was forced to at least outwardly serve the spider goddess.

I'd go with him being in denial of his own ethics, and desiring to have fun as a way of taking his mind off of thinking about them. He's been going through a selfish phase. Call it an early mid-life crisis.

quote:
On the other hand I still kind of feel Salvatore was making driitz his own little exestinial Sarte voice to the detriement of the concrete and hard spiritual and god hierarchy system that is framed in the forgotten realms.

To the detriment of the system? How so?!

The system is still very much in place. RAS/Drizzt did nothing to harm that.

But RAS added to it, by illustrating that individuals with strong enough of a personal moral compass can defy the power of theocracies. They are certainly in the minority, and small in quantity, so they don't add much in terms of numbers.

Therefore, there's little detriment.

If a theological system can't withstand a few infidels or apostates now and then, then it doesn't sound like all that hard and concrete of a system to me.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2013 :  20:39:07  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Count Roland

I would argue that the Fantasy -Not real world - theological nature of the forgotten realms make some races evil as a hard and fast rule. Drow of course are a fine example. They all must bow to lady loath an evil god by nature and all intents. In the same way we have orcs who all respect and fear their clerics who derive power from Helm.... opps One Eye the elf hating evil god. Humans can worship neutral, chaotic, good, lawful or evil gods- thus they can be any alignment....

You seem to be contradicting yourself. Realmslore tells us that the tenets of these various faiths are taught to the various races, which means that the members of the races are indoctrinated to have certain alignments. They are brainwashed into certain paradigms. RAS gave us a very good look at how that process is carried out with Menzoberranyr drow. But it's likely no different with any of the other races.

Humans have a plethora of gods, and so, they have a plethora of different alignments that they have been indoctrinated with.

The difference is likely because of a greater number of human PCs earlier in the history of the game, with a greater variety of options being provided to them. The NPC monster races were probably shortchanged a comparable degree of theological diversity, but if the races were around in the Realms for similarly lengthy periods of time, then they probably rightfully should have been afforded a similar divine--and alignment--diversity as to what humans have been afforded.

But none of this is indicative of innate, inborn alignment. You have only helped to support my point. All the races have complex systems in place to inculcate their members with ideologies, moralities, and alignment tendencies. Those theologies bring about the prevailing patterns that we observe in their associated races.

It is laziness on our parts to only want to consider the outcomes, and then write off whole races as evil, without considering the known contributing factors. And it is cowardice to refuse to consider the possibility--even probability--that there might be a whole lot more "Drizzt"'s out there, of every race, than what we already know about.

Far easier, funner, and more convenient to just think of them as evil fodder, and to leave it at that.




Drow even used to have factions and deities who fought to free their people from such ''slavery'' and brainwashing; they had depth, variety and personality. However WotC removed basically all of this, and to me it looks like they're working to actually bring this race back to its (gygaxian, not realmsian) origins: stereotypical and overused ''mwahaha, ebil'' villains.

I think that the concept of an inherently evil race is boring and somewhat stupid (except evil outsiders, which truly are embodied ''evil''). An entire race of individuals who have the same goal and same kind of behaviour is something that would never realistically happen, and not interesting at all IMO. In my eyes it is a huge plus that orcs can be something different than monsters that randomly destroy stuff, and it was a huge plus that the same thing was true for the drow.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 12 Mar 2013 00:30:05
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Count Roland
Acolyte

9 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2013 :  02:51:12  Show Profile Send Count Roland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, you see Drizzit is a Good ranger. And when I say Good I mean good in a solid real way in that universe. One can- and many now do- argue that 'the good' is determined by society and one culture that feels cannibalism is favorable is 'the good' if all think of it as a fine idea. However, in this Fantasy world of Drittz Good is ultimate and true and a HArd fact set by the gods. So, Melkihi or the Golden Unicorn is Good and will fight for, punish, and harm those who murder a unicorn for the pleasure of the killing for the murder and revel in the pain they cause and their power over it- and an evil god like Malar would reward, applaud, and be pleased with that hunting murder act

In that universe of absolutes you can not go to Malar and argue and encourage him that the hunting and slaying of unicorns for pleasure should not be done... nor can you go to Melkhi the Happy Good Pony god of Drizzit and say perhaps ocne in a while hunting and killing a unicorn for pleasure and smearing blood all over your chest and then leaving the carcass to rot is for 'the Good'.

There are absolutes in the Fantasy realm of Drittz. Drittizz is in the service of an absolute always good god. It is thus that I dislike this sort of existential angst he demonstrates. You can not be a good ranger and then continue to associate yourself with evil amoral known killers longer than anytime than required. Salvatore seems to have 'grown' as an author and decided he will use Drittz as his tool to explore questions of good and evil and how one should respond to evil and evil persons in the world. But, he fails the absolute premise of who Drittz is and the Laws and Theological structure of his entire universe. In any nroaml D+D game Drittz would lose his divine ranger powers- Remember those? Yes Rangers have divine spells they gain from the god they are sworn too!

There are no agnostics/atheists in the D+D realms. It is not possible to deny the constant 'miracles' performed by clerics, paladins, and divine Evil Fliying Monkey Black Guards which are common (well maybe not so many evil monkey anti-paladins) in this magic heavy world. To use the 'sword' idea: to deny divine in the Forgotten realms with all the clerical spells being administered by even common priests- The small 'Keep of the Borderlands' had like a 7th level one! - would be like going about our world claiming swords did not cut and they were all fake even after you saw one being used to cut a Marine Corps Birthday Cake. An absolute and Divine Good and an Absolute and Infernal Evil exist there and no sworn Ranger servants of any such force who is going to deny them as existing or go about ignoring there wishes and favored behaviors and not become simple a simple fighter class...

So yeah I did like the book... but Salvatore seems to be warping he realm rules for his grand own character crisis stage.

And yes- I think it is not mostly society that shapes the races. It is the nature of the creature itself. The nature of a goblin and orc is evil they are not born with a blank slate and would, if raised by all good halflings, turn into smiling butter churning altruistic creatures.
They are like the same you said that outsiders are - they are by nature their alignment.

It all goes back to 1st D+D where you play as a Dwarf or play as an ELf... If you play as an elf you are a fighter magic user and you are Chaotic and Good. If you meet a pack of orcs they are all Evil... To be honest I have not played the later additions so maybe like you argue there are exceptions to the rule. But, I do not recall drow being anything but evil in Against the Giants....

Anyhow, I hope Artemis Entreti Ascends too as the next Cryric Clone. He does need to have a face off with Tiago and get his magic glasssteel longsword, as now as far as I can tell Entreti is walking about with some lame unmagic longsword +0 of dullness after 4 swings. I guess he would have to backstab Dalhia and she could become the new Shar since she is bitter and sullen enough to make for tired reading of an overall good book... But, here is hoping my Real Big God spares Mr. Salvatore to write more because the good life is putting some chub on the ole boy.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2013 :  05:00:40  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

quote:
It's not that ridiculous. In the RW, just because the Communist regime of the Soviet Union was power-hungry and corrupt, you don't think that every single citizen of that union was evil do you? Just because the Japanese Empire was expansionist and brutal, you don't necessarily think that all Japanese people were like-minded, do you? And for those people today who think the United States is made up of nothing but a bunch of imperialistic, capatalistic, egotists, you wouldn't agree, would you?


Hmm if I may interject my opinion here: The real world analogy would be if we applied one "evil" run kingdom in the Realms (Thay? Zhentil Keep?) to the Soviets or Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan; of course some citizens inside are not bad, hate the leaders, and with different rulers the entire land may become allies with its former enemies.

When it comes to orcs, in D&D terms, they are inherently evil and chaotic. There is no RW equivalent to apply that to. Between Drizzt/Jarlaxle and "The Dark Mirror" short story, Bob has tried to show that there are individuals in inherently evil D&D races that buck the trend, but they are ridiculously rare. By making an entire kingdom of orcs civilized, it really is kind of an afront to how orcs have been developed in D&D ruleset over the years. And to that point, I don't think I agree either.

I'm biased though, I hated the Thousand Orcs books and The Orc King; it really turned me off for a bunch of reasons. Not the least of which is this turning orcs into a peaceful trading civilization with dwarves.




Racism as a game mechanic. My favorite aspect of D&D.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY
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Merrith
Learned Scribe

135 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2013 :  05:28:28  Show Profile  Visit Merrith's Homepage Send Merrith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe it's just from knowing The Companions is coming out, but reading the whole book now I just didn't get the feeling that Drizzt died at the end. Plenty of reasons why too...

He just vanished from the site of the fight, with no tracks? In his own thoughts somehow he was up on Bruenor's Climb, far from where the fight took place, with Guen at his side. Definitely seems like another "I'll move him where he's supposed to be" move by Mielikki, much like all of them losing 18 years when they were in the forest. Not to mention the significance of the name of the year they awakened (1484 DR), Year of the Awakened Sleepers. It seems pretty obvious to me that Jarlaxle's ruse involving Athrogate to Draygo Quick that the conflict between Drizzt and Tiago would go a long way to determining who's "Chosen" would be serving whom is likely to occur, and Mielikki was just moving and protecting Drizzt to where he needed (and when) to be for the coming conflict.

There's also the odd little tidbit which I noticed no one else mentioned that can't just be completely random. When Jarlaxle rescues Drizzt first and foremost and dumps all of his gear out of his bag of holding, Drizzt notices something is missing, and although we all probably assumed he meant Guen's statue, Jarlaxle goes out of his way to note the ring made of pure ruby that Drizzt took off Ravel's brother. Drizzt assumes it's just some mage's bauble, but Jarlaxle declares it is "of no small power. Keep it safe". Who knows exactly what it'll turn out to be, but likely will be involved in why he isn't dead.

Although he did seem to be fairly seriously injured, it didn't read as mortally so, at least in my opinion. Perhaps you could make the argument he bled out, but there are far too many other clues that lead me to believe he never died at all and it never seemed like he did when I finally finished the book.
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Spencer
Acolyte

Canada
10 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2013 :  23:42:51  Show Profile Send Spencer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's interesting that Salvatore retired Drizzt in the same manner as Weis&Hickman retired Raistlin.

Edited by - Spencer on 12 Mar 2013 23:43:45
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Euranna
Learned Scribe

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2013 :  00:01:35  Show Profile Send Euranna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also just noticed that on the IDW Publishing site, that the new comic by RAS and Geno will start coming out next month (in stores 4/17/13). The blurb on it says that it has an unexpected tie in to this summers novel by RAS. It is actually about the sword Cutter.

I have already called to add it to my saver.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2013 :  05:39:18  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Count Roland

Well, you see Drizzit is a Good ranger. And when I say Good I mean good in a solid real way in that universe. One can- and many now do- argue that 'the good' is determined by society and one culture that feels cannibalism is favorable is 'the good' if all think of it as a fine idea. However, in this Fantasy world of Drittz Good is ultimate and true and a HArd fact set by the gods. So, Melkihi or the Golden Unicorn is Good and will fight for, punish, and harm those who murder a unicorn for the pleasure of the killing for the murder and revel in the pain they cause and their power over it- and an evil god like Malar would reward, applaud, and be pleased with that hunting murder act

I think Drizzt's goodness is overstated, and his ambiguity is underappreciated. It is assumed that he really is this sort of paladin of Mielikki, methinks largely because of the hard moral stance he takes in his journals.

But he has shown us, in telltale instances, that he has not been fully sincere in his journals. Sometimes, he was trying to convince himself that he felt a certain way, by writing it out. It's a kind of graphic self-brainwashing.

Remember, this valiant noble hero whom we all know so well today was also the drow point man who nearly killed that little elf girl in the Moonwood:
quote:
Rage, horror, anguish, and a dozen other emotions racked Drizzt at that horrible moment. He wanted to escape his feelings, to lose himself in the blind frenzy of his kin and accept the ugly reality. How easy it would have been to throw away the conscience that pained him so.

The elven child rushed up before Drizzt but hardly saw him, her gaze
locked upon her dead mother, the back of the child's neck open to a single, clean blow. Drizzt raised his scimitar, unable to distinguish between mercy and murder.

[...]

He almost did it. In his unfocused outrage, Drizzt Do'Urden almost
became as his kin. He almost stole the life from that beautiful child's sparkling eyes.
(bold added; Homeland, P4:C20)

For all of his ethical training by Zaknafein, for all of his vaunted superior conscience, and for all of his avowed moral outrage, Drizzt wanted to set his conscience aside and just give in to the bloodlust of the moment and become like any other drow. And he nearly did it.

Drizzt has recently wondered just how close he still is to going there. He has questioned whether all of his trappings of conscience and honor are nought but a sham.

And before you say, "But 'almost' or 'nearly' is not the same thing as 'actually' doing it," remember, he certainly surrendered his conscience and hung with Jarlaxle, Dahlia, and Entreri--for years. He did set his conscience aside, at least for that.

And we should ask ourselves how justified was his assistance with Dahlia's quest to kill Sylora, or Entreri's quest to kill Alegni? Were these honorable killings, performed in the process of executing an arrest? Or were they stone-cold revenge killings, with merely a shrug to such trifles as morals and ethics?

How about when Drizzt went off on that basilisk effigy in Exile?

Or when he taunted the verbeeg giants, despite Wulfgar's protests about honor in battle, in The Crystal Shard?

Did Drizzt have just cause to slaughter all of those individual orcs behind enemy lines in "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy"? Or was he just giving in to something baser, and more lowly, and rationalizing it to himself?

quote:
There are absolutes in the Fantasy realm of Drittz. Drittizz is in the service of an absolute always good god.

Is this truly so? Even in the game lorebooks, I was under the impression that the Realmsian gods generally did not like to intervene in mortal affairs. They don't get involved in every single situation, even when there are conflicts with their doctrines. It takes really big deals for them to get involved. That's the opposite of absolutes--it's relativism and subjectivity.

quote:
Salvatore seems to have 'grown' as an author and decided he will use Drittz as his tool to explore questions of good and evil and how one should respond to evil and evil persons in the world. But, he fails the absolute premise of who Drittz is and the Laws and Theological structure of his entire universe.

You're saying that Bob Salvatore fails the premise of who Drizzt is? He created the character, for crying out loud. He makes Drizzt who Drizzt is.

Methinks it is you who fails to comprehend the nature of Drizzt, with your assertion that anything is absolute. Maybe things are so in your games, but are you so sure they are in canon Realmslore?

quote:
There are no agnostics/atheists in the D+D realms. It is not possible to deny the constant 'miracles' performed by clerics, paladins, and divine Evil Fliying Monkey Black Guards which are common (well maybe not so many evil monkey anti-paladins) in this magic heavy world.

One cannot deny all of that magic, but one can be unsure as to the origin or foundation of it. A melee specialist might not necessarily know the signature differences between arcane and clerical magic. Magic might just be magic, to him. (Doesn't all of it, ultimately, go back to the Weave, anyway?) If someone dressed in a robe and bizarre icons unleashes some sort of dark magic, is everybody going to be able to discern whether that magic is being fueled by a god, versus just a demon, or some other source? Unless he actually sees a god walking the surface of Faerûn, how does he know?

Are there false prophets in the Realms? Has anyone ever faked their religion and source of magic?

"Atheist" merely means "one subscribing to a belief system or lifestyle which lacks or is without a god or gods". An atheist does not necessarily deny the existence of a god or gods, but she lives her life as if there were none. For her, it's as if there are none.

Think of it this way: there may be a lot of drug lords or mafiosos in your city, but you might choose to live your life in passive defiance of them. You may ignore them, and just focus on your life and your values. And they might even let you get away with it for a while, because you're small potatoes to them.

Is not the Wall of the Faithless proof positive that many people can and do lack faith in the Realms? Apparently, such persons got away with it throughout their entire lives, and even died that way.

quote:
It all goes back to 1st D+D where you play as a Dwarf or play as an ELf... If you play as an elf you are a fighter magic user and you are Chaotic and Good. If you meet a pack of orcs they are all Evil... To be honest I have not played the later additions so maybe like you argue there are exceptions to the rule. But, I do not recall drow being anything but evil in Against the Giants....

Like I said, there were practical reasons for this oversimplification within the game, early on. Monsters were something to throw at PCs like obstacles to be overcome. They weren't intended to be thought about in much greater depth than that. Gaming parties were encouraged to elaborate on the monsters' vileness, and give them lines to deliver and what-not. But monsters were, by default, baddies.

But the Forgotten Realms setting has always been different. It's more complex than that. It has not tended to be about oversimplified rules for convenience's sake (there are exceptions to that, too, of course--darn you, darkvision!). The Realms have encouraged authors and designers to flesh out the details, and even to explore exceptions to the rules. They have thrived in the gray area.

Bob Salvatore is not just some Johnny Come Lately in the Realms. He was the second author contracted to write for the setting. And he's been doing it ever since. Thus, his characteristically atypical, against-type exploration of character has been an integral part of the Realms (fiction, at least).

The D&D game rules are a wonderful component of the Realms, but the Realms have grown far beyond just those. The Realms have become large enough to encompass all sorts of exceptions, anomalies, outliers, nuanced variations, and even contradictions.

To my way of thinking, this sort of diversity is what makes the Realms more than a mere two-dimensional, paper-game setting, and brings it alive. That this world works not just according to neat, tidy rules, but also with all the exceptions, smacks of real life. It enriches, rather than despoiling.

quote:
But, here is hoping my Real Big God spares Mr. Salvatore to write more because the good life is putting some chub on the ole boy.

Heheh. He always said that Oliver the Highwayhalfling was one of his favorite characters. Maybe this is just life imitating art?

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 13 Mar 2013 :  08:02:00  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drawing good and evil along racial lines isn't just an offensive oversimplification of the rules. It is robbery. It steals moral depth and complexity from stories. It takes away the weight of your actions.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Rofocale
Acolyte

USA
23 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2013 :  23:52:27  Show Profile Send Rofocale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finished the book a couple nights ago. Felt a little anticlimactic. Still enjoyed it, though.
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Squifurgie
Acolyte

6 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2013 :  15:23:33  Show Profile Send Squifurgie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished the book last night, I did not like the ending. I understand the concept of leaving unanswered questions at the end of a book but this is a bit much. The ending was way too ambiguous.

As far as Drizzt being dead? I am confident he will be back. There are still a couple things that need to be resolved.

Dahlia made a lot of progress but in the end she threw it all away and regressed into her old self-destructive ways. She will not mentally recover from this unless she is able to come face to face with Drizzt again.

His relationship with Entreri pogressed a lot but there is still more I think.

There are still a few other things as well, He should probably meet Quenthel again. He should meet Jarlaxle again and he should hear from Jarlaxle himself what exactly happened between Jarlaxle and Zaknafein.

He should meet Tos'un again as well

Let's not forget that ring that he got in Gauntlgrym, it has a role to play for sure.

The ending in "The Last Threshold" seemed like a setup for the future. A way to protect Drizzt and co and safely bring them into the next era of the realms.

The ending was way too weird to be anything else.
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2013 :  16:28:09  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dead people generally leave a body behind.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2013 :  18:27:13  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the Good of Drizzt Do'Urden:

Let's not forget the events of The Pirate King, in which Drizzt's good intentions for the people of Luskan touched off a civil war that resulted in the death of many civilians. Let's not forget that in The Hunter's Blades Drizzt preferred to give himself over to anger and murder orcs instead of searching for Bruenor's body to give his friend a proper burial.

Drizzt is a perfect candidate for a Chosen of Lolth; he has a habit of unintentionally sowing discord in his wake. Entreri hinted as much when he and Drizzt reunited after The Icewind Dale trilogy; I'm speaking in reference to puting Regis in Pasha Pook's place. Then there was the fallout of The Legacy of the Drow (in respect to Menzoberranzan).


"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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piratebbbb
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2013 :  23:34:17  Show Profile Send piratebbbb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I finished LT last night, read through the replies here, and I'm glad I'm not the only one upset about the ending. There were too many loose threads left open, and the "check-ins" with old friends were simply that, "check-ins". Drizzt was supposed to be coming full circle, back to his home. His path leads him to Pwent, and the famed battlerager gets just a few pages after his transformation? Then leaves him in an ambiguous ending? Then his path leads him to Wulfgar's potential offspring, and he barely spares him a glance? This is just a short list of characters that get the shaft in this book of goodbyes, and there are many other stories mentioned throughout the forums (Zak, Jar and Artemis, etc) that haven't gotten their due... yet.

Over two books, the fight between Errtu and Drizzt or Tiago and Drizzt build up to a final showdown, but as they close in on each other, it instead becomes Errtu vs Tiago? And then they make Tiago look like a punk by using a drow army of priestesses and wizards to defeat the balor?

This was supposed to be full circle, but it seems like a rushed family get-together to say goodbye to people you've grown with. Perhaps Salvatore is trying to make us feel the pain Drizzt felt when he lost everyone by taking people away from us without proper goodbyes. But I don't see this as a full circle thing. Drizzt was supposed to grow, but he still shows those stupid mistakes, and his apparent last one is indicative of exactly this. Dahlia is not the first elf he's pissed off. Both Le'Lorinel and Dahlia are emotional wrecks, and he tries to martyr himself in both cases. Yes, I see the cyclical path his philosophy has taken, but come on.

With all of this said, however, there are too many loose ends left for this to be the end of Drizzt. There are more books coming, Drizzt must continue existence in some form or another. Salvatore has left the door open for several characters to make a return, so rather than being upset about the way the book came out, I grin in anticipation for all these loose threads, because something needs to be done with them.

Side note. When do the events of the prologue of The Orc King occur? Is it now being ignored due to the unforeseen events of the Sundering?
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2013 :  23:34:44  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think he's a Chosen of both, if he's a Chosen at all. Maybe the 18-year sleep was Mielikki's way of protecting him from Lolth's 8 legs.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Yoss
Learned Scribe

USA
259 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  00:14:40  Show Profile Send Yoss a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by piratebbbb



Over two books, the fight between Errtu and Drizzt or Tiago and Drizzt build up to a final showdown, but as they close in on each other, it instead becomes Errtu vs Tiago? And then they make Tiago look like a punk by using a drow army of priestesses and wizards to defeat the balor?



Haha, yeh he did kinda look like a punk with a shiny new sword and shield, playing with toys bigger than he is.


quote:

Side note. When do the events of the prologue of The Orc King occur? Is it now being ignored due to the unforeseen events of the Sundering?




Ya know, I keep meaning to check that, but I forget every time I'm near the bookshelf. I think I keep hoping someone here will tell me.




On a side, side note: I got a good laugh when I was playing SWTOR, I named my assassin after Entreri of course, and I was looking through the mess of mats in the bank when some other character came up to me and kept /slapping me. I looked at the name, and it was someone who named their character Jarlaxle. Not the first time that's happened, and one of the guys I used to play WoW with had a hunter he named Carrie-Brie. We were in a pvp match once and were on a team with a Mage named Gromph. Lol.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  00:35:03  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by piratebbbb

Side note. When do the events of the prologue of The Orc King occur? Is it now being ignored due to the unforeseen events of the Sundering?

After 1462 DR, since Bruenor and Pwent are both gone (see Gauntlgrym).

And after 1472 DR, since that would be 100 years after the signing of the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge (see The Orc King, main text).

Then we also have to consider that Guen is back, but there is no sign of Dahlia or Entreri in Prologue. That would seem to point to some time after The Last Threshold. So perhaps after 1486 DR?

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Euranna
Learned Scribe

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  01:42:45  Show Profile Send Euranna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Beast. I was pondering that earlier today. That makes things more interesting.
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piratebbbb
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  07:24:28  Show Profile Send piratebbbb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by piratebbbb

Side note. When do the events of the prologue of The Orc King occur? Is it now being ignored due to the unforeseen events of the Sundering?

After 1462 DR, since Bruenor and Pwent are both gone (see Gauntlgrym).

And after 1472 DR, since that would be 100 years after the signing of the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge (see The Orc King, main text).

Then we also have to consider that Guen is back, but there is no sign of Dahlia or Entreri in Prologue. That would seem to point to some time after The Last Threshold. So perhaps after 1486 DR?



I was thinking exactly this. Would this count as irrefutable evidence that Drizzt still lives on, or at least comes back? I can't think of any way around this way of thinking, unless Drizzt was "sleep walking" during the 18 year sleep in The Last Threshold, running around doing Drizzt things, then when they all "wake up" he remembers nothing. Although that guard mentioned that they had disappeared completely with no trace, so maybe not.
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe

USA
108 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  19:31:36  Show Profile Send charger_ss24 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could Drizzt's future be answered in The Companions book?

"As Drizzt's fate hangs in the balance, he reflects on the lives of the trusted allies who stood by his side throughout his early life - the friends now known as the Companions of the Hall. Meanwhile, the first stirrings of the Sundering begin."

source: http://www.amazon.com/The-Companions-Sundering-Book/dp/0786963719/ref=pd_sxp_f_r
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  19:49:29  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by piratebbbb

quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

Then we also have to consider that Guen is back, but there is no sign of Dahlia or Entreri in Prologue. That would seem to point to some time after The Last Threshold. So perhaps after 1486 DR?


I was thinking exactly this. Would this count as irrefutable evidence that Drizzt still lives on, or at least comes back?

No, I would not jump to such a conclusion of certainty, just yet. That's why I said "perhaps".

I can catalog what Bob has written and gotten published so far, with a fair degree of confidence, but I am very hesitant to project the future for his stories. That is for him and the publisher to decide. I am just a lowly scribe.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  20:36:06  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keep in mind that there is a very good reason why Dahlia wouldn't appear in the Orc King prologue- she hadn't been conceived of as a character at that point.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  20:51:44  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Keep in mind that there is a very good reason why Dahlia wouldn't appear in the Orc King prologue- she hadn't been conceived of as a character at that point.

Well, yeah, TOK was written back in 2006 or 2007: 6 to 7 years ago. So that predates a lot of stuff has come down the pike since then.

But her absence is not the only thing of interest, there. There's also Entreri's absence. And there is the presence of Guenhwyvar.

On a side note, the TOK Epilogue was the first mention we had of Tos'un and Sinnafein having two children, which is going to be of import in the new comic mini-series, Cutter. This could be about the missing 100 years, or about the future beyond "The Neverwinter Saga". It's too soon to tell.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2013 :  20:57:41  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Keep in mind that there is a very good reason why Dahlia wouldn't appear in the Orc King prologue- she hadn't been conceived of as a character at that point.

Well, yeah, TOK was written back in 2006 or 2007: 6 to 7 years ago. So that predates a lot of stuff has come down the pike since then.

But her absence is not the only thing of interest, there. There's also Entreri's absence. And there is the presence of Guenhwyvar.

On a side note, the TOK Epilogue was the first mention we had of Tos'un and Sinnafein having two children, which is going to be of import in the new comic mini-series, Cutter. This could be about the missing 100 years, or about the future beyond "The Neverwinter Saga". It's too soon to tell.



Bob's admitted to more or less making up the Neverwinter Saga as he went along. So Guen being captured and Entreri becoming Drizzt's vitriolic best bud hadn't occurred to him at that point, either.

I honestly wouldn't put it past him be retconning the prologue- it wasn't particularly important to the story, really, it was just a framing device for that trilogy.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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