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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2013 :  09:55:06  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Sigh, Im with Jeremy in that the ToT and the SP are the only true RSE listed IMO. Of those two I actually liked the ToT but disliked how it 'ended' (I generally have a problem with mortals becoming greater deities overnight). Unlike Jeremy, however, I absolutely hated the SP and all its retconned changes to the Realms. Sorry I couldn't be more positive sir.


You aren't alone. Your assessment of the RSE duology is echoed by my own views, pretty much to the letter.

Having been a Realms aficionado since the Old Grey Box (which I still, amazingly, have, box and all...the 'Old' in my moniker is there for a reason ), I actually liked the concept behind the ToT and the way it was handled. Having said that, I disliked Cyric even back then, and progressively disliked him more and more as the years went by. The gods as they were before the ToT were interesting - the Ascended Three, not so much. I won't re-hash my 4th Edition Realms issues.

So of the two, the Time of Troubles gets my vote. Most of the other things on the list, I either have no opinion on, or don't feel strongly enough about to comment on either way, save for perhaps Myth Drannor, which was handled in an...interesting...fashion.

- OMH
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2013 :  11:15:30  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
sleyvas
I voted the ToT just because it was a unique experiment for its time. That's not to be confused with liking the outcome. I hated the idea of Bane, Leira, and Myrkul being gone when they'd only been introduced to us.... what maybe a 1.5-2.5 years before? I must admit, I wasn't as upset with Waukeen and Bhaal disappearing. But, it was interesting to see the gods as avatars for a novel, because it hadn't really been done before in D&D.

+1 on this ... the Avatar Crisis, unstable Weave, mortals and gods killing each other, and invention of Ao were all new and exciting ideas at the time.

But the ToT also set some dangerous precedents. Repeating the same old story with a new cast of names ad nauseum - as a lazy way to reformat the Realms each time a new ruleset came along - became tiring very quick. Death of Mystra (etc) was once cool and original but has now become very shallow and tiresome trope, as undifferentiated as the vast armies of scimitar-wielding drow heroes people seem to emulate.

[/Ayrik]
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2013 :  14:51:54  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree that with those stating that ToT and the spell plague are different than other RSEs. Although, I do think that most of the other events are still pretty realms shaking. ToT and spell plague are kind of Super RSEs. Anyway, ToT introduced new concepts within the existing framework and lore of the setting. Spell plague just introduced a new setting. So, my vote went to ToT. Although, I would argue that other than the spell plague, the Return of the Archwizards has had the most dramatic effect on modern Faerun.

Tarlyn Embersun
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2013 :  15:28:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

So, yeah. Now we have a powerful military force in reclaimed Myth Drannor, and we're supposed to believe that everyone just welcomed them with open arms. No serious conflict, despite all of those who have a strong interest in creating such a conflict?

I don't buy it.



They weren't welcomed with open arms; there was some involvement by other groups (mostly because of manipulation by the fey'ri), and it didn't pan out for them.

The area was never totally abandoned, and no other group really made a presence there. The return of elves to the city wasn't an incursion into the territory of other powers, it was the reclamation of an area that no one else held. It was, at most, the return of a family to that abandoned house at the end of the road.

Also, what are the other powers going to do about it? They don't work together on practically anything, and none of them had tried to take the area when it wasn't occupied. Now it would take an alliance to go marching into territory that is strongly held by a force that is seasoned, on their home ground, and highly skilled at holding that kind of terrain.

So other than casting a wary eye at Cormanthyr and maybe strengthening a few garrisons in that direction, what is anyone else going to do?

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Marc
Senior Scribe

657 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2013 :  16:01:16  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Spellplague (time-jump not included), Time of Troubles, Dracorage, return of Shade, flying aboleth city: these are all excellent ideas, mostly unfulfilled potential.

Abyssal plague: planewalking plague like the iron shadow? sounds interesting.

Reclamation of Myth Drannor: it should have failed, leave room for the PC's to fix things.

Death of Azoun: based on what I know from non-novel sources, it's an example of how a Realm Shattering Event should be done.

The Tuigan Horde, Return of Bane, Death of Mask, Iakhovas: hard to find anything positive about them.

My favorites are in the past, Netheril, Imaskar, Narfell and Raumathar.

.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2013 :  17:55:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Marc

Reclamation of Myth Drannor: it should have failed, leave room for the PC's to fix things.


I think Myth Drannor is too big for any one group of PCs to fix.

Had they simply done the epilogue a little differently, there would still be room for PCs to help fix things. The epilogue makes it sound like Myth Drannor was restored in a mere five year's time, which is most unlikely, thinks I. Had they spun it as an armed camp with decades of work ahead of them, it would have been more likely and left plenty of room for PCs to be part of the Reclamation effort.

The latter is the approach I'll take, if I ever DM in the Realms.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Feb 2013 17:55:58
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2013 :  01:46:16  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The area was never totally abandoned, and no other group really made a presence there. The return of elves to the city wasn't an incursion into the territory of other powers, it was the reclamation of an area that no one else held. It was, at most, the return of a family to that abandoned house at the end of the road.


It's completely true that it wasn't an occupied territory, but there is a reason for that. That reason is because of the Elves who remained behind after the fall of Myth Drannor. They actively worked to keep humans out of the forest, killing them when necessary. The Ruins of Myth Drannor (which I quoted previously) is very clear on this fact.

So, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the average Joe who lives in and around the Cormanthyr Forest. Prior to the return, he likely looked to the woods with fear. The occasional monster likely emerged to steal livestock, and attack humans. So they knew monsters were in the forest. They likely looked to the forest, as having magical spirits, ghosts, and the like that wandered the woods. This would be the various fey that dwell there, though the average Joe likely would believe that they were spirits or ghosts from the fallen Elven Kingdom that once existed in the woods. Finally, he's going to know that screwing around with the forest - such as cutting the trees - is a good way to get killed. They'd know it was a result of the Elves who remain in the woods, and those Elves didn't seem keen on establishing good and friendly relationships with the humans. They were isolationists who were attempting to keep the humans out of their lands.

If you add to that the fact that the Eldreth Veluuthra has been active in the area before even the fall of Myth Drannor - they formed in 262 DR the Year of Pages Perilous. And they formed from five leading Elven houses of Myth Drannor, specifically to oppose Cormanthyr's liberal attitude toward non-elves (humans in particular). This is their cause, this is their home turf - the place where their influence and power is the strongest.

So, you add to the fact that the general attitude of the Elves is to kill humans who attempt to encroach upon the forest - their lands - and the EV being active in the area... it's not like the average Joe is going to distinguish between a member of EV and Elves in general. He's just going to assume that all Elves in the forest are generally hostile against humans, and probably want to kill and act violently toward them.

So, it's not like a friendly neighbor returning home down the street, after having rented out his former house for a couple of years. It's more like a group of hostile Elves have returned to the Forest in large numbers. Not only that they're battle hardened, militarily trained, and capable of wielding force against those who oppose them.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Also, what are the other powers going to do about it? They don't work together on practically anything, and none of them had tried to take the area when it wasn't occupied. Now it would take an alliance to go marching into territory that is strongly held by a force that is seasoned, on their home ground, and highly skilled at holding that kind of terrain.

So other than casting a wary eye at Cormanthyr and maybe strengthening a few garrisons in that direction, what is anyone else going to do?



The average Joe isn't going to do much about it. He's simply going to be fearful and try to convince those with more power and authority than him to do something about it. Those in power may share those fears, as well as having additional fears of their own - for example, how does this militarily powerful group impact their freedom and sovereignty? Keep in mind that humans have been actively encroaching on Cormanthyr for some time, they're likely going to want to continue this encroachment. Roughly 60 years prior the Elves made the calculation that they could no longer defend their lands against the encroachment of the other races - mostly humans - so they decided to abandon the forest for Evermeet.

This means for the last human generation, they've basically been pushing forward mostly unopposed. Now, 60 years is nothing for an elf, but it's basically a human lifetime. Modern day average Joe has heard stories from his father and grand father about the Elves who used to live in the forest in larger numbers, who'd hunt and kill the humans who hunted there and cut their trees. Now they're back in large numbers, and militarily armed. Those who've begun to profit as a result of reduced Elven aggression in the area, will certainly see their livelihoods threatened.

From the perspective of the average Elf they see the Forest and surrounding land as their land. They're going to see the humans as actively encroaching on their ancestral lands. Many of those who are returning, likely lived in those lands previously. Because of the long Elven lifespans, some of them may have even lived in Myth Drannor prior to its Fall and fled as a refugee.

From an Elven perspective, it's a bit like going on vacation and returning home to find squatters living in your house. From a human perspective, it's a bit like having someone who lived 400 years ago show up with a deed to the land your house sits on. They're claiming prior ownership of the land, by virtue of being there first. It doesn't really matter, that you've never seen or heard of them before; they are claiming by virtue of being there first any deed that you may hold to the land is null and void because it conflicts with their deed to the land which is older.

Now, if you want to be generous - and I think we can be generous here - we can say that the leaders of the returned Elves are intelligent, compassionate, and wise. They want to work to build an alliance with the humans, perhaps even wanting to restore Myth Drannor to what it once was before the fall - where humans and elves lived side by side.

That's all peachy and fine. However, the issue isn't with them and their good intentions. The issue is with everyone else. The issue is with the local human lord who feels that his sovereignty is threatened by having another military power so close to his lands. The issue is with the Eldreth Veluuthra actively playing upon Elven arrogance and pride, in an attempt to sway them to their cause. The issue is with the Eldreth Veluuthra acting in ways - on their own - to actively provoke the humans into aggressive acts. The issue is with the Sembians who are racist against the Elves due to their long standing rivalry against the Elves who used to live in the forest, who've now returned. The issue is with the Shades and Zhents, who want to expand their influence in the region, so they use agents to attack and provoke the Elves into aggressive acts of their own.

The issue is that there are numerous different groups, each with their own agenda, their own ambitions, and their own feelings on the issue. It's not simply a matter of humans vs elves. It's a matter of individual humans and individual elves forming their own opinions, and acting in a way that could provoke anger, resentment, or aggression from the other group. It's very easy to fall into a tit for tat conflict.

To give one example, let's say there is a local Dalelander. His father was a Sembian, who married a woman from the Dales. They live in a small village near the forest. He carries with him his father's racist attitude against the Elves, and is old enough to remember when the Elves occupied the forest in much larger numbers prior to their retreat. Let's go further and say his father was a woodsman who was murdered by elven arrows. He has a great deal of hatred and resentment against the elves of that forest for what they did to his father, and now they've shown up in even larger numbers. The people of the village are uncertain and afraid of having so many armed and powerful elves living in the forest, after all they remember a time when the forest was more dangerous as well.

This Dalelander and his buddies decide that they're not going to be intimidated by their presence, and that it's time for humans to send a message to the "knife ears." The good intentioned leaders of the returned Elves want to establish good relationships with the humans of the village, so they send a small unarmed delegation to meet with their local leaders. The delegation remains in the village for a couple of days, the skeptical leaders of the village agree to consider the elven proposals. They need time to discuss it with the other members of their community.

As the elven delegation leaves the village, just outside is the aforementioned Dalelander and his buddies. They decide to exact retribution on the Elves and send a message. So they jump the unarmed Elves. They are badly injured and are forced to flee back into the forest, except for one. She's captured by the humans. She's tortured, gang raped, mutilated - her ears are cut off, and then she is brutally murdered. Her corpse is dumped at the edge of the forest to serve as their "warning" to the Elves of what happens when THEY show up in HUMAN lands.

What do you think the Elven response to this will be when they learn not only that their delegation has been attacked, but a member of that delegation was tortured, gang raped, mutilated, and murdered? The natural reaction to such a thing would be to be horrified, angry, and grief stricken. It is also natural to want to respond to the act by seeking "justice" - and by justice, I mean vengeance.

That's where the Eldreth Veluuthra comes in; they speak to the surviving members of the delegation and learn the identity of those responsible. They kidnap them from their homes silently in the night, and drag them off into the forest. Once in the forest, they are tortured, castrated, and beheaded. The EV then sneaks back into the village and leaves their severed heads - with their manhoods stuffed in their mouths as a warning to what happens when a human defiles an elven woman. The next morning the humans wake up to find the horrific site, and then later discover the rest of their corpses near the forests edge.

What do you think the human reaction to this will be? Assuming they even know why it happened, are they going to say, "Oh, my neighbor Bob who I've known for the last 45 years totally deserved it?" I don't think so. At best they're going to regard it as a return to the status quo before the Elven retreat from the forest. That's at best. At worst, they're going to want to take their own vengeance against the Elves for the death of their friends.

And on the Elven side of things, assuming they find out what happened? Does anyone believe that the average elf is going to condemn the actions of the Eldreth Veluuthra? Or are they going to see the EV's actions as justified - maybe even heroic - as having given the humans what they deserved? Imagine trying to lead Myth Drannor and condemning the EV for their actions, how long will the general population continue to support you?

I'm not saying that war would happen. An open war isn't in the interest of anyone. It would be too costly for both sides. However, little isolated incidents over the course of several years - an increased bitterness, resentment, and the occasional skirmish - ultimately has the potential to escalate into something much worse.

The only thing I can thing of to avoid this is an extremely powerful threat that is actively attacking both groups. Now, some people might point to the Shades, but I dismiss that idea because the Shades are not going to attack directly. That would be stupid, and they would know such an act would unify people against them. Instead, they'd actively be promoting the conflict while simultaneously offering "assistance" and "protection" to those fearful. They'd show up with a friendly extended hand to the humans, while secretly doing what they can to escalate the conflict to force the humans to become more reliant on them and their aid. That's how the Shades operate.

So, in my opinion the most likely outcome is constant low level hostilities and skirmishes between the Elves and their neighbors, broken occasionally by a real battle (with deployed military force), but with both sides avoiding full out war. This leaves the region unstable, with the constant threat of every skirmish and battle potentially leading to an all out war.

That's how I envision the region playing out.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2013 :  06:33:33  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Marc

Reclamation of Myth Drannor: it should have failed, leave room for the PC's to fix things.


I think Myth Drannor is too big for any one group of PCs to fix.

Had they simply done the epilogue a little differently, there would still be room for PCs to help fix things. The epilogue makes it sound like Myth Drannor was restored in a mere five year's time, which is most unlikely, thinks I. Had they spun it as an armed camp with decades of work ahead of them, it would have been more likely and left plenty of room for PCs to be part of the Reclamation effort.

The latter is the approach I'll take, if I ever DM in the Realms.



In Rich Baker's Avenger novel, they travel to Myth Drannor and things really aren't like that. Sure, for the most part the surface is habitable and things are progressing smoothly.......but the tombes and other, deeper, areas of Myth Drannor hold some really bad monsters inside. They entrances to them are consistanlty guarded and warded from people going in and monsters coming out.

What I feel happened is that the Reclamation of Myth Drannor is mostly cosmetic, not fully dealing with the problems that lurk benieth the city. They probably still have monsters that escape and attack people and I'm sure the forests around Myth Drannor aren't nearly as safe as they could be. An adventurer would find a good time visiting the city and perhaps taking on jobs that help defend the woods and clear out parts of the undercity that are still teeming with demons, dragons, beholder, undead, etc.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2013 :  12:41:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, thats pretty-much the picture I got as well. One small 'neighborhood' within Myth Drannor has been secured, a few other parts are dangerous but fairly 'okay' to travel through with an armed group, and yet other areas are 'forbidden zones' and sealed-off areas.

If anything, the post-reclamation Myth Drannor is the PERFECT fodder for an adventure path - the higher your players level, the deeper they go. The setup is perfect - its just like how 'zones' are setup in MORPGs; you step outside of the 'camp' and all bets are off.

Come to think of it.... Video Games are all PoL.

EDIT: On Topic
What I'd like to see moving forward is writers/designers addressing past RSE's, rather then just ignoring them after they are over. Its very unrealistic, IMHO. For instance, in the Waterdeep novel by Ed & Elaine, they gave a nod to the Threat from the Sea, yet another completely forgotten about RSE. Thats what I want to see - some AFTERMATH. I truly, TRULY hate that "everything is fine the next day" attitude in the Realms (and I am looking squarely at YOU, Ruins of Zhentil Keep). Lets see some damn repercussions for a change.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2013 12:46:28
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  00:25:09  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really enjoyed Tam's war in The Haunted Lands. Does that count?

"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  00:49:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just a note, you're stating that the elves were gone from Myth Drannor for centuries. That may be true that they were gone from that particular section of the woods for that long (which noone was there pretty much that was sane because it was overrun with nasties). However, the elves left the forest in what 1357? They returned in 1374, clearing out a bunch of very bad neighbors in the process. So, not even a full human generation passed, and they had never fully left the forest (there were still elves who stayed behind). So, as I see it, the surrounding nations had never really made any real inroads into the area, and when the elves left the forest only got worse with dark elves, fey'ri, and others moving in..... so yeah, I can see them being kind of happy the elves returned and it not being a major issue. It'd be like your neighbors that you thought were odd but quiet moving away and renting out their house to a bunch of criminals, but then the original neighbors returning. Would there be bumps in the road? Sure. When aren't there bumps in the road?


To be fair, I'm not an expert in Elven lore. So, someone more knowledgeable than me can come along and correct me if I mess things up.

However, basically this is how things went down (checking sources, which I will list).

Myth Drannor fell to the Army of Darkness in 714 DR the Year of Doom. (Grand History of the Realms, pg. 99)

The Elves return in 1374 DR the Year of Lightning Storms (Grand History of the Realms, pg. 154 - 158).

That is an absence of 660 Years.

Now, it's true that the entire forest wasn't abandoned. However, I think to state that the Elves had any serious presence there or interactions with the humans is an over statement.

Reading from the Ruins of Myth Drannor, pg 7 & 8 - under "The High History of Myth Drannor":

"Having paid such a high blood price for reclaiming their land, the elves were not eager to welcome intruders who might bring danger anew - and humans and halfling brigands grew more numerous, the elves closed the woods to those not of their kin, and swallowed up Myth Drannor behind a cloak of elven magic - and the seeking points of elven arrows. Myth Drannor became lost to men, and its legends grew.

The Elven Court slowly grew strong again, and held its own as men pushed past, settling the Dales and then the Moonsea shores. ...

So it was, and for many years none but elves were welcome in what had become known as the Woods of Cormanthyr. ...

It seemed that Myth Drannor would sleep forever cloaked in the forest, until less than twenty winters ago, when the elves of the Elven Court decided that the human hold on the region, with the gathering evils in Zhentil Keep, Mulmaster, Vaasa, and Scardale, and the soaring population and hunger for wood (as a fuel and building material) of rich Sembia, made their own survival ultimately impossible - and The Flight of the Elves began.

In the Year of Moonfall (1344 DR), the High Council of wise and elder elves, who ruled the Elven Court, reached the fateful decision to abandon their woodland realm after over five hundred summers of deliberation - and began to empty their realm, sending their people to fabled Evermeet, the island realm and refuge of the Elves."


So, according to the lore above - yes some Elves remained behind. It's not clear how many, but the population was certainly much smaller than Myth Drannor. I'm guessing maybe a couple thousand, maybe five thousand at the most. That might sound like a lot, until you realize that they would be scattered among multiple settlements and in even more remote and isolated areas of the forest.

However, what is important to note is that they actively worked to keep non-Elves out of the forest. This means that they didn't have an active diplomatic relationship with the humans. Sure, they might have befriended some Harpers, and wilderness types - such as human druids. However, the average Dalelander and Sembian? Most definitely not. Their relationship with Sembia was horrifically poor, and I'd imagine that they made more than a few enemies in the Dalelands as well.

Keeping in mind, of course, that some of those left behind were also members of the Eldreth Veluuthra. So, you can imagine some of the tensions and "examples" they made over the years.

When the remaining Elves decided to leave in 1344 DR (30 years prior to their return to reclaim Myth Drannor), a small handful were still left behind. I'm willing to bet that a sizable chunk who decided to still remain behind were members of the Eldreth Veluuthra, or at least sympathetic to the cause.

Overall, the average human in the region likely knew Elves lived in the forest, and would kill anyone who wasn't Elven who tried to enter. That was probably the extent of their relations - Harpers and the like excluded - we're talking about average Joe Dalelander.

So, yeah. Now we have a powerful military force in reclaimed Myth Drannor, and we're supposed to believe that everyone just welcomed them with open arms. No serious conflict, despite all of those who have a strong interest in creating such a conflict?

I don't buy it.



You had the elven court in the same forest up until just like 17 years prior when they overnight fled to Evermeet. Sure, they weren't specifically in Myth Drannor, but then no sane people were either. Basically, the elves moved back to the same forest and cleaned out a particularly nasty section of it. That's why I said the surrounding countries wouldn't exactly freak (its not like the other countries were making heavy inroads into the forest either, what with all the drow and fey'ri moving in after the elves left either... Sembia had started a little on the outskirts, that was about it).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  12:07:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer

I really enjoyed Tam's war in The Haunted Lands. Does that count?
As I did. But I don't consider it an RSE (Realms-Shaking Event). There's only one realm involved (that's why it's called Civil War, right?); yes, Rashemen and Aglarond were involved, too, but just minimally.

Every beginning has an end.
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  13:41:52  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer

I really enjoyed Tam's war in The Haunted Lands. Does that count?
As I did. But I don't consider it an RSE (Realms-Shaking Event). There's only one realm involved (that's why it's called Civil War, right?); yes, Rashemen and Aglarond were involved, too, but just minimally.



How can it not be a RSE? The consequence of the civil war has direct implications for every nation in the region, and consequences that stretch far beyond them as well. Just imagine all those Red Wizards who weren't loyal to Tam, but were located in the numerous Enclaves scattered about Faerun. Virtually every one of those enclaves are now independent, and yet still enjoy the protection of the Three Laws of the Enclave.

So, now we have on the loose the largest number of renegade Red Wizards in the history of Thay. How many of Thay's magical and political secrets are now potentially at risk? What will these enclaves do? Who knows.

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. Imagine them, for example, coordinating to seize control of Raven's Bluff. Funds that they would otherwise be channeling back to Thay could be coordinated for such an effort. They already have a rather strong and successful enclave located there, so it's just a matter of extending it's influence (much easier if they have additional funds and resources for other enclaves). From there they could covertly eliminate key rivals, and put the right puppets loyal to them in the right places...

No longer bound by Thayan law to train only Mulan as Red Wizards, their ranks open up to virtually anyone who can use magic. What individual who wanted to study the Art wouldn't want a peek at the secret knowledge of the Red Wizards?

So, from there what do these enclaves do? Do they direct their resources toward conquering new territory, and establishing a new nation under their control? Or maybe they simply work to build up enough resources to retake Thay by force?

No matter the option they choose it'll have an impact on the politics and economics where there are Enclaves present. Even if they don't work together, they're now independent and their aims may no longer be simply about trade. They no longer have a superior looking over their shoulder, and now they're free to do whatever they want. This could potentially upset local and regional power structures.

Basically, wherever the hand of Thay has touched there will be some impact. It could be very minor, or it could be something major - we don't know. However, it would be a direct consequence of the civil war. Even if it is something small like Thayan circle magic starting to spread among non-Red Wizards; that's still a consequence and an implication.

When you basically have the collapse of an entire nation, it isn't exactly self-contained. It impacts EVERYONE who has any relationship with that nation; most directly it's neighbors, but things further afield can also be impacted to greater and lesser degrees.
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Dennis
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  14:01:07  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Well, it seems like we define RSE differently. An RSE for me is more on what happened to whom or what, than the possible future actions of the people involved.

The Return of Shade Enclave could have been a minor thing had they not meddled with the affairs of their neighbors, rather magnanimously. Conversely, Thay's Civil War could have been an RSE had Szass Tam tried to claim Rashemen and Aglarond, or had Rashemen and Aglarond supported the coalition of zulkirs against Szass Tam. But we never saw that.

As for the now-free Red Wizards manning the enclaves, well, true, there is a possibility that such freedom may upset whatever power structure that involves the realm where they're at, but such a thing remains as it is--a possibility. I'm more concerned with what actually happened. That's what RSE is for me.

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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  14:06:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I dropped my campaign setting box, would that qualify as a 'Realms-Shaking Event'?

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Dennis
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  14:10:32  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I don't know. You have to figure that out yourself. As I said, I don't game. I only read the novels.

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Aldrick
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  15:04:03  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Well, it seems like we define RSE differently. An RSE for me is more on what happened to whom or what, than the possible future actions of the people involved.

The Return of Shade Enclave could have been a minor thing had they not meddled with the affairs of their neighbors, rather magnanimously. Conversely, Thay's Civil War could have been an RSE had Szass Tam tried to claim Rashemen and Aglarond, or had Rashemen and Aglarond supported the coalition of zulkirs against Szass Tam. But we never saw that.

As for the now-free Red Wizards manning the enclaves, well, true, there is a possibility that such freedom may upset whatever power structure that involves the realm where they're at, but such a thing remains as it is--a possibility. I'm more concerned with what actually happened. That's what RSE is for me.


Isn't that the point though? It's not just what you blow up. By that definition killing Mystra isn't a RSE, because it only directly impacts her and those directly related to her (The Chosen, her church, etc.).

Basically, my definition of RSE is pretty simple. If you're causing major alterations to a nation state then you've likely just witnessed a RSE. Why? Because it's going to have far reaching implications - some of which may not be immediate.

It's like throwing a stone into the water - events ripple outward from the center. Nothing happens in complete isolation. Kill the leader of the Shadow Thieves? Not that big of a deal. It will have some implications for Athkatla, no doubt. However, the ripples caused aren't likely to extend far beyond that one city.

However, if you kill the same individual and it sparks a civil war in Amn...? That's different. You've just impacted trade all up and down the Sword Coast. How is this going to impact Waterdeep, Balder's Gate, Tethyr, and Calimshan? All of them rely on the Trade Way and routes that go through Amn. What consequence is this going to have on the politics of those nations?

The easiest way to avoid these issues is to focus on character stories that are for the most part, highly localized. Then avoid upsetting the delicate balance that has been established, and if that balance is disturbed find a way to mitigate it.

For me, part of the issue with RSE's is their lack of consequences. Things get blown up, major power shifts happen, and the logical consequences that should follow never really happen. This is precisely the issue I have with the Elves returning to Myth Drannor. I LOVE the idea of this happening. In my home version of the Realms, I went with it.

My issue with Myth Drannor's return isn't the fact that it's a RSE, it's the fact that none of the logical consequences that should have followed their return happened. I mean, they planted the freakin' Tree of Soul's there, right? That is supposed to be one of the most powerful artifacts on Toril, and it is basically a bat signal to every elf on the planet to make a pilgrimage to Myth Drannor and set up shop. This is now their new home... the Retreat has ended!

The conflict that this should cause would be amazing. Yet, it's just ignored. It's treated as virtually a minor event. It isn't a minor event! The planting of the Tree of Souls should have an implications for every freakin' elf on the planet. Literally, THOUSANDS of Elves should be coming through a gateway from Evermeet - like an orc horde spilling out... That's the entire purpose of the damn thing making a portal! That's the entire purpose of the damn tree in the first place!

Gah!

I can handle a lot of things, but what bugs me the most is things like this... especially, when something potentially awesome never lives up to its potential because the clear potential has too many far reaching implications that would alter history forever. Planting the Tree of Souls, refounding Myth Drannor, that's one of those things.

So, in my opinion, I don't think RSE should happen unless we're willing to look at the long range implications and consequences of those actions. It is an insult to the lore and the integrity of the setting to simply hand wave away the consequences of major actions. And the only reason that it's done is to force people to buy mediocre novels, so they can try to figure out what was blown up or destroyed in that particular book. At least WotC has admitted this practice, and has made a commitment to cease it in the future after the Sundering.

For me, I eagerly await to see what they come up with regarding the 5E Realms. However, the one good thing about the Spellplague is that the time jump and the event forced me to decouple my home Realms from the established setting. It freed me from the madness; at least I no longer feel I *HAVE* to keep up with what is going on, or that I'm *FORCED* to include some nonsense in my home game out of fear of future source books being published and having a sizable chunk of lore in them invalidated by my own personal canon.
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Dennis
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  15:24:50  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

By that definition killing Mystra isn't a RSE, because it only directly impacts her and those directly related to her (The Chosen, her church, etc.).
I daresay it's not a good example to stress your point. Mystra (as Ed said a million times) IS magic. And the Realms is awash with magic. Killing her disrupted magic in the whole setting, blowing things up, changing the land and its people. That's clear and obvious impact of her demise, so it's an RSE.

Now back to Thay's Civil War, on your example on the Red Wizards and their enclaves . . . What happened to them exactly? Yes, they're practically free now to further their own agenda. But have they actually done something that threatened the peace and security of any realm?

Every beginning has an end.
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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  15:38:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Aldrick - simple solution offered by a continuity gaff (once again, "use the lore to fix the lore"):

The Tree of Souls - fully empowered to 'do its thing' - was planted in Auserial first. Then it was uprooted - which was NEVER SUPPOSED TO OCCUR - and replanted in Myth Drannor. This damaged the 'divine magic' associated with the relic (sacred artifact), so its not functioning the way it should have. I assume some of the magic is still associated with its original placement. Given enough time, it may be able to 'repair' itself.

That's my solution - YMMV.

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Hawkins
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  15:55:07  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

And while everyone has the right to their opinion, I think there's more than a little nostalgia coloring the ToT for it to be in the lead.


I'm disinclined to agree. The Horde Invasion wasn't too long after the ToT, and it's not getting any love. If nostalgia was the only factor, the second oldest RSE listed should be a lot higher.


I think the problem with the Invasion is that it is not as well read. I know when I was building my Realms novel collection back in college (2000-2004) I had to look extra hard to find them.

I personally loathe the first two books of the ToT because I do not think that they were written very well. But I did enjoy Waterdeep, Prince of Lies, and Cruicible, all written by different authors than the first two books in the "series."

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Hawkins
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  15:59:05  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

What I'd like to see moving forward is writers/designers addressing past RSE's, rather then just ignoring them after they are over. Its very unrealistic, IMHO. For instance, in the Waterdeep novel by Ed & Elaine, they gave a nod to the Threat from the Sea, yet another completely forgotten about RSE. Thats what I want to see - some AFTERMATH. I truly, TRULY hate that "everything is fine the next day" attitude in the Realms (and I am looking squarely at YOU, Ruins of Zhentil Keep). Lets see some damn repercussions for a change.


Well stated.

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He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

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Aldrick
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  16:31:23  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

I daresay it's not a good example to stress your point. Mystra (as Ed said a million times) IS magic. And the Realms is awash with magic. Killing her disrupted magic in the whole setting, blowing things up, changing the land and its people. That's clear and obvious impact of her demise, so it's an RSE.


I chose that example on purpose. You made the argument that you defined RSE as what happened to who or what, and not on the consequences or future implications of those actions. To that end, you didn't consider the civil war in Thay a RSE, because it only directly impacted Thay, and it's neighbors Rashemen and Aglarond had minimal involvement.

My counter point is this: Yes, all of that is true. Rashemen and Aglarond's involvement in the war itself was minimal. However, the consequences of the civil war have major regional implications that impact not just every surrounding nation, but potentially have unknown consequences that stretch across Faerun. (I use the Enclaves as merely an example.)

My argument is that you cannot make such major changes to a nation state without it having it have major implications that ripple outward across the Realms. Some of the consequences may be very small and minor, and others may be major. Obviously, the neighbors of Thay are those most directly impacted by the change.

By creating such a limiting view of RSE as you put forward, you make it possible to argue that Mystra's death isn't a RSE. Yes, magic got screwed up because of her death. However, the politics of Thay's neighbors just got shaken up by that civil war as well. Is it on a totally different scale? Of course. Yet, if we're only limiting ourselves to who or what is directly and immediately impacted, we're limiting the impact of Mystra's death to the Chosen, her Church, the deities who reside in Dweomerheart (because it blew up), and of course Mystra herself.

Obviously, it's absurd. I don't think there is anyone here on these forums who would argue Mystra's death wasn't a RSE. However, if we are using your limited view of RSE then we could make that argument. In fact, if you think Mystra's death was a RSE then you're embracing the underlying argument that I'm making.

That argument is: It's not just the event in question that constitutes a RSE, it's also the potential consequences that ripple outward from it.

This is why what happened in Thay is a RSE. It (should) have the potential to have consequences that reach far beyond the nation itself. If the events in Thay were contained, and it had virtually ZERO impact or consequences on events outside of Thay - then it wouldn't be a RSE. Just as assassinating the leader of the Shadow Thieves will only largely have implications for Athkatla. It really wouldn't have much of an impact on the Realms beyond that - it is a self-contained event. Therefore, it is not Realms Shaking.

By definition non-RSE events have to be self-contained.

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that there aren't different degrees of RSE. Some RSE will have a larger impact than others. I'm also not making the argument that all RSE are bad; I like some, and hate others. I imagine everyone feels the same way.

If I had it my way, RSE would be extremely rare, and if they did happen (notice I said if and not when), the logical consequences of the event that took place would be played out in a way that is consistent with established lore. This means we could have what took place in Thay play out (even though I personally dislike that RSE), but we must also have novels detailing what is going on in Thay's neighboring nations. How are they reacting? What are they doing? How have they changed? As well, we should get a good idea on what is happening with all those Enclaves.

In short, the RSE shouldn't even happen until we've been able to narrow down what the likely consequences of such a major change to the setting would entail. I'm not saying we need to dig all the way down to how it impacts even the most remote farmer in the backwoods of Cormyr. However, we should at least know the implications on the surrounding nations, and have a good idea of what is going on with the Enclaves. That's at the very least, the bare minimum that needs to be done. If I want to set an adventure or write a story in Raven's Bluff after the Thayan Civil War, I should have a good idea about how the Enclave was altered as a result of the consequences of that war. I shouldn't just have to take a shot in the dark; I should be able to make a logical and educated guess based on the established lore.

This is good for the sake of consistency in the lore. I see it as treating the setting, and the work of everyone who uses it (whether they just read the novels, use the setting for gaming, write novels, or design source books) - with respect and integrity. When things are being blown up and altered in dramatic ways willy-nilly it undermines the shared world that we've attempted to create and enjoy together.

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Now back to Thay's Civil War, on your example on the Red Wizards and their enclaves . . . What happened to them exactly? Yes, they're practically free now to further their own agenda. But have they actually done something that threatened the peace and security of any realm?


That's my point. We don't really know what the consequences of the Civil War were, because they were hand-waved away. Just like with Myth Drannor and the Tree of Souls. The Tree of Souls was planted, and that is supposed to mark the return of Elves from Evermeet to their new homeland. The Tree of Souls literally functions as a gate between Evermeet and Myth Drannor. Elves should be streaming forth from that gate to help retake Myth Drannor, clear the forest of enemies, and basically re-establish the kingdom. In the span of 100 years, we're literally talking about a kingdom living in that forest that is perhaps hundreds of thousands of Elves.

After the Spellplague wrecked Evermeet, there should have been a flood of refugee's coming through that gate. We see no evidence of this what-so-ever. The Tree of Souls was planted and it's literally ignored.

This says nothing about the implications of refounding Myth Drannor should have with the Humans of the Dales, the Moonsea, Cormyr, and Sembia. We can just ignore that for the moment, because the planting of the Tree of Souls is so important to the Elves with such major implications that the very act of planting it is in and of itself a RSE.

The same issues exist for the events surrounding Thay. The consequences, which the lore demands should happen, are either hand-waved away or ignored. This is because the consequences have the potential to be much bigger than the event itself. This is the lore malpractice equivalent of killing Mystra, and only detailing what happened to her Church and the Chosen, meanwhile ignoring the impact it had on magic as a whole.
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Dennis
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  16:55:28  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

This is why what happened in Thay is a RSE. It (should) have the potential to have consequences that reach far beyond the nation itself.
(highlight mine) See? You cannot even provide a concrete consequence that (going by the notion of RSE) nuked, altered, shook, or disrupted a realm other than Thay itself. A potential is not good enough (for me). That's just like saying anything major that happens in a realm—whatever realm—would ultimately affect the world at large.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

We don't really know what the consequences of the Civil War were . . .
Precisely. How can something be an “event” (an actual consequence) when it hasn't and probably won't happen?

Every beginning has an end.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  16:58:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. Imagine them, for example, coordinating to seize control of Raven's Bluff. Funds that they would otherwise be channeling back to Thay could be coordinated for such an effort. They already have a rather strong and successful enclave located there, so it's just a matter of extending it's influence (much easier if they have additional funds and resources for other enclaves). From there they could covertly eliminate key rivals, and put the right puppets loyal to them in the right places...




Mulmaster is a more obvious choice, thinks I. They've already got a fair amount of power there.

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Aldrick
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  17:18:20  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

@Aldrick - simple solution offered by a continuity gaff (once again, "use the lore to fix the lore"):

The Tree of Souls - fully empowered to 'do its thing' - was planted in Auserial first. Then it was uprooted - which was NEVER SUPPOSED TO OCCUR - and replanted in Myth Drannor. This damaged the 'divine magic' associated with the relic (sacred artifact), so its not functioning the way it should have. I assume some of the magic is still associated with its original placement. Given enough time, it may be able to 'repair' itself.

That's my solution - YMMV.


Sure, we could come up with our own solutions. I did in my game; I basically have over a million Elves living in that region now. Crap got real, really fast, and now let's just say the EV are pretty popular among the Elves. Oh, and a couple of Dales are occupied territories where the humans live in apartheid conditions. Also, they're in a cold war with Cormyr, and have been at each others throats since the EV assassinated Azoun V. (They assassinated him because both he and Coronal Ilsevele Miritar were trying to work on a agreement that would secure the peace and stability of the region. The EV killed Azoun V to put an end to it, and they were successful. Events quickly spiraled out of control from there; ultimately leading to some shady work on the part of the Cormyrian's which led to the horrific public execution of the Coronal's son who was attempting to help secure the peace. The Coronal herself was assassinated several years later by Zhent assassins hired by the Cormyrian crown - yeah, the entire region got all a Song of Ice and Fire.)

---

As a lore side note, to my understanding the Tree of Souls was never planted in Auseriel. If it was, it was retconned. Taken directly from A Grand History of the Realms:


- 1371 DR - Prince Lamruil of Evermeet, his human consort Maura Silverhand (daughter of Laeral Silverhand), and their followers travel to the far northern reaches of Faerûn to establish a hidden city called Auseriel. They bring the Tree of Souls with them, given to them by the prince's mother, Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet, intending to plant it at the heart of a new refuge for the Fair Folk once the city begins to flourish.

Notice the phrase there: INTENDING to plant it. It doesn't say they actually planted it.

1373 DR - Auseriel comes under concerted attack by a family of white dragons led by the great wyrm Harashnalthyn. At Maura's insistence, Prince Lamruil returns the Tree of Souls to Evermeet, while the princess and their remaining followers provide a valiant rearguard defense.

Notice here: He returned the Tree of Souls to Evermeet. As you noted in Elves of Evermeet, the Tree of Souls cannot be moved once it is planted.

1377 DR - The Srinshee returns to Myth Drannor and offers Ilsevele Miritar the Rulers' Blade in recognition of her wise and resolute leadership in the realm's refounding. Ilsevele humbly accepts the Rulers’ Blade and takes the title of coronal. Queen Amlaruil arrives to congratulate the new coronal and brings with her the Tree of Souls as a gift to the new realm. The artifact is planted in a ring-shaped colonnade at the heart of the city known as Seldarrshen Nieryll, the Starsoul Shrine.

---

Based on the above from a Grand History of the Realms, it seems to indicate that the Tree of Souls was taken to Auseriel with the intention of planting it there. However, before they were prepared to plant the tree white dragons attacked led by Harashnalthyn. There is pressure for the Prince to take it back to Evermeet due to the danger, and he does so. It is too valuable to risk. Four years later Queen Amlaruil decides to give it to the new Coronal of Myth Drannor instead. It is then officially planted.

As a result of this, the Retreat should end. Combine this with the destruction wrecked upon Evermeet by the Spellplague, we should have seen tons of refugee's streaming through the gate to Myth Drannor. Certainly, a chunk of them shifted into the Feywild willingly. However, an even larger chunk decided to stay behind (and according to the FRCG: '"dispersed to the new continent of Returned Abeir or
traveled to Faerûn.").

Not one mention of the Tree of Souls. The bulk of those Elves who remained behind would have CERTAINLY gone to Myth Drannor. I mean, why wouldn't they? The freakin' Tree of Souls is there - that's the point of planting it!
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Aldrick
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  17:34:46  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

This is why what happened in Thay is a RSE. It (should) have the potential to have consequences that reach far beyond the nation itself.
(highlight mine) See? You cannot even provide a concrete consequence that (going by the notion of RSE) nuked, altered, shook, or disrupted a realm other than Thay itself. A potential is not good enough (for me). That's just like saying anything major that happens in a realm—whatever realm—would ultimately affect the world at large.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

We don't really know what the consequences of the Civil War were . . .
Precisely. How can something be an “event” (an actual consequence) when it hasn't and probably won't happen?


You're ignoring my argument entirely.

I'll quote the last bit of my previous post:
quote:
The same issues exist for the events surrounding Thay. The consequences, which the lore demands should happen, are either hand-waved away or ignored. This is because the consequences have the potential to be much bigger than the event itself. This is the lore malpractice equivalent of killing Mystra, and only detailing what happened to her Church and the Chosen, meanwhile ignoring the impact it had on magic as a whole.


Nothing happens in a vacuum. There are ALWAYS consequences to your actions. Some of those consequences are large and some of them are small. I don't think anyone is going to argue that the consequences of a Thayan Civil War - based upon the pre-existing lore prior to that civil war - wouldn't have a dramatic impact on the politics and economics of (at a minimum) Thay's neighbors.

One of the primary reasons given for Thay not being successful in its conquest ambitions, is the fact that it was so internally fragmented. It is now unified under a single ruler - Tam. Why doesn't this change the political calculations of Thay's neighbors?

Thay, at that exact moment, is weakened by both civil war and the events of the Spellplague. Are you going to make the argument that Thay's neighbors - for the next 100 years - sat on the side lines and did nothing while Thay slowly recovered and rebuilt?
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Aldrick
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  17:50:07  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. Imagine them, for example, coordinating to seize control of Raven's Bluff. Funds that they would otherwise be channeling back to Thay could be coordinated for such an effort. They already have a rather strong and successful enclave located there, so it's just a matter of extending it's influence (much easier if they have additional funds and resources for other enclaves). From there they could covertly eliminate key rivals, and put the right puppets loyal to them in the right places...




Mulmaster is a more obvious choice, thinks I. They've already got a fair amount of power there.



That's true. I really find it hard to imagine that at least a handful of those enclaves didn't ally themselves together in an attempt to try and pull something like this off. Even taking into account the Red Wizard's penchant for scheming against each other, hatred and a common enemy (Szass Tam) is still something to unify around.

Frankly, I see the following happening to the Enclaves:

1. In some areas, with Thay too weak to seek retribution, the citizens take justice into their own hands and basically storm the enclaves and lynch those within.

2. A sizable chunk of them would form into a loose alliance, and would focus their efforts on local ambitions as well as the greater ambitions of the group. (The greater ambition likely being the overthrow of Tam and retaking Thay.)

3. A handful of enclaves would decide to basically go completely rogue and remain completely independent; focused on their individual ambitions. However, I think such individuals are at risk as they could become targets for retribution by the Thayan Enclave alliance.

The end result is that I think the bulk of the surviving Enclaves end up in the loose alliance. Those who refuse would likely be targets for assassination. Some such enclaves may exist, but that's likely either because the Enclave and the individual who runs it isn't valuable enough to waste resources on, or because they are too powerful to touch and the risks vs rewards just isn't worth it. This effectively eventually makes any non-allied enclave really powerful.

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Dennis
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  17:54:31  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

One of the primary reasons given for Thay not being successful in its conquest ambitions, is the fact that it was so internally fragmented. It is now unified under a single ruler - Tam. Why doesn't this change the political calculations of Thay's neighbors?

Thay, at that exact moment, is weakened by both civil war and the events of the Spellplague. Are you going to make the argument that Thay's neighbors - for the next 100 years - sat on the side lines and did nothing while Thay slowly recovered and rebuilt?
No. Again, I'll go back to my first argument--my definition of an RSE is not exactly what you have in mind. And the difference is fine, really, because in the first place, even WotC didn't provide a clear-cut definition of this ever-loved and ever-hated term.

An RSE (again, for me) is not just about the restructure of the political systems of three or more realms, or about worrying which crop to grow where and when. It's an event that directly affects more than just one realm and involves any if not all of the following: massive physical destruction, gore, enslavement, disembowelment, relocation, depopulation, countless (and sometimes senseless) deaths, and dragon fart. (Okay, scratch the last one.)

Every beginning has an end.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
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Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  22:17:29  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

And while everyone has the right to their opinion, I think there's more than a little nostalgia coloring the ToT for it to be in the lead.



I'm disinclined to agree. The Horde Invasion wasn't too long after the ToT, and it's not getting any love. If nostalgia was the only factor, the second oldest RSE listed should be a lot higher.



During the eighties there were literally hundreds of cartoon shows that were vehicles to sell toy lines.

Yet Transformers and G.I. Joe are the only ones being turned into hollywood blockbusters.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

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Aldrick
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Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  00:36:44  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

One of the primary reasons given for Thay not being successful in its conquest ambitions, is the fact that it was so internally fragmented. It is now unified under a single ruler - Tam. Why doesn't this change the political calculations of Thay's neighbors?

Thay, at that exact moment, is weakened by both civil war and the events of the Spellplague. Are you going to make the argument that Thay's neighbors - for the next 100 years - sat on the side lines and did nothing while Thay slowly recovered and rebuilt?
No. Again, I'll go back to my first argument--my definition of an RSE is not exactly what you have in mind. And the difference is fine, really, because in the first place, even WotC didn't provide a clear-cut definition of this ever-loved and ever-hated term.

An RSE (again, for me) is not just about the restructure of the political systems of three or more realms, or about worrying which crop to grow where and when. It's an event that directly affects more than just one realm and involves any if not all of the following: massive physical destruction, gore, enslavement, disembowelment, relocation, depopulation, countless (and sometimes senseless) deaths, and dragon fart. (Okay, scratch the last one.)



I think everyone here would agree that something of that magnitude is definitely a RSE. However, something that large... I'm not even sure the Time of Troubles would count as a RSE under that definition. The setting itself didn't change that much in the event. Some cities and areas sustained some damage, magic went wonky for a time (but it got better), a few deities died, a few new deities ascended, but the impact was mostly relegated to their churches.

In fact, I can only think of three events that meet your threshold. Two of them are historical, and they are the Sundering and the destruction of Jhaamdath. While I think everyone would agree that those two events are RSE level events (huge numbers of people died, entire nations crumbled, the physical land was reshaped, etc.); most people wouldn't necessarily be bothered by it as these events pre-date publication. They were setting the table for the lore and future events that we're supposed to enjoy.

The only other event that I can think of that meets this threshold is the Spellplague. Now, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you consider other events that we've witnessed as RSE. If that's the case, then I think you'd have to refine your definition; which may in turn inadvertently catch other events in it that you don't consider are RSE.

I think we might be able to agree - as well as everyone else - that non-RSE events are self-contained, and don't really have much impact outside of their immediate location. In other words, by being self-contained there is no "shaking" going on; the event happens and if there are any major setting altering consequences they aren't immediately obvious and would take place far into the future.

This doesn't mean the events aren't important to the immediate characters involved, and the people that surround them. It also doesn't mean the events aren't meaningful and important to an organization, town, city, and in some cases at least a nation.

It literally means that the event is self-contained, and that the consequences of the event aren't going to spill out far beyond the immediate story except in rather minor ways. (Example: This noble house gains wealth and status; that noble house declines, this new organization is formed, that local group of thugs is gone, this locally important individual died, this locally important individual ascended to power, etc.)

---

Now, for me what you describe is a Realms SHATTERING Event - it's huge, it has immediate and history altering implications. It's also almost certainly unexpected. It's the lore and story equivalent of getting sucker punched in the face.

Then there are Realms SHAKING Events - which is something less drastic, but also alters the setting in some significant way. It's an event that has potential repercussions and consequences beyond the immediate event that also continue to alter the setting. In other words, the event is no longer self-contained.

These things are similar - they have a lot in common, but due to magnitude aren't exactly equivalent.

---

One of my biggest issues with both Shattering and Shaking events - at least the way they've been handled in the Realms thus far - is that those writing the stories and source books clearly understand an important fact. They understand that these events aren't self-contained; that they have major implications for the setting and lore.

But they want to have a huge event; they just don't want to deal with the built-in consequences of that event. Going back to a previous example, planting the Tree of Souls has pre-established consequences built into it. We know what is supposed to happen when you plant the Tree of Souls.

Yet, none of that happens. It doesn't even get a mention in the FRCG. Why? Because the implications would be huge.

They are engaging in these huge events that have not just immediate implications, but long range consequences some of which we simply can't immediately know... and they're hand-waving them away.

They are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want these RSE, but they don't want to deal with the consequences of the RSE. They want to have a RSE, but they want it to be self-contained. This is inherently impossible to achieve, because you can't have a self-contained RSE - by the very nature of a RSE it isn't self-contained. The only way to do that is to hand wave away pre-established lore, and ignore the consequences of the event.

It's a bit like watching Pandora open the box, and trying to shut it before she let's all the bad stuff out. Once Pandora's Box is opened, you have to deal with the consequences of opening the damned box. You can't shut it and pretend nothing happened.

My belief is that if authors and designers were forced to deal with the consequences of blowing stuff up; they'd blow stuff up a lot less. And of course, when stuff inevitably does blow up it will hopefully jive well with the pre-established lore. The setting will be altered, but at least it'll maintain a consistency.

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