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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11693 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 16:54:06
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I'm specifically looking for "in canon" answers here, and I'm betting the answer is going to be "no, its not been defined". What I'm wondering is, have they actually given any kind of definitive answer yet as to Abeir and Toril's "position" in the multiverse. I know they're somehow "paired", but lets take a few examples. If I were to get on a spelljammer, could I leave realmspace and go to another crystal sphere and find out that that's where Abeir is. Or would I instead find out that both Abeir and Toril are part of realmspace but they're out of phase with one another somehow.
If they are "out of phase" with one another, does Abeir not have any access to the astral and other planes that lead to the outer planes? Are Abeir and say Athas in the same "phase" and therefore Abeir is hard to traverse to much like Athas is?
This all leads into other questions, but I wanted to see first if they'd presented anything close to answers with this stuff (and since I quit reading 4th edition... can't say).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 17:43:58
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Spelljammer has basically been ignored since the advent of 3E, though 3E lore did have the occasional nod to prior spelljamming references. So where Abeir was, exactly, has not been answered, so far as I know.
Since Abeir being a separate world is a retcon, Abeir is not in any Spelljammer/Realmspace lore. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 17:58:30
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| Yeah, I would love to see some more Spelljammer love. Unfortunately, I loaned my copy of Dungeon Issue #92 (with Polyhedron #151) to a friend and never got it back. Evidently Dragon Issue #339 also had some Spelljammer material. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 18:58:29
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Actually, Spelljammer conclusively proves that there is no Abeir. Period, end of discussion. Which is one of the many reasons that 4e nonsense bothered me so much.
The Spelljammer product Realmspace fills out the entire solar system in which Toril rotates, from the innermost to outermost planets. It also includes in-sphere weirdnesses like comets and castles. If Abeir existed, it would have been defined. However, Abeir doesn't exist. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 19:12:08
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I don't know about what 3rd E / 4th E says about your question, but before that Abeir-Toril was the name of the planet. This was commonly shortened to Toril. Any spelljammer reference would reflect this. A mention of Toril or Abeir-Toril back then were synonymous.
Now for my supposition. I'd assume the other world would be hard to get to because if it was easy then planewalkers would have been going back and forth for all sorts of reasons for many thousands of years. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 01:12:10
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Wooly's answer said it all:
Spelljammer was 2E
Abeir (distinct from Abeir-Toril) was 4E
3E never bridged the gap, there is no canon connection.
For all we know, Abeir shares the same orbit as Toril but is never visible because it's on the exact opposite side of the sun. Spelljammers would've noticed this, but they haven't been allowed to say anything since 2E. Alternately, "Abeirspace" might be disconnected from the Flow, not impossible to reach (in theory) but so far off the known spacelanes that spelljammers never dare try. Alternately, or additionally, Abeir might be locked behind an impenetrable crystal sphere, sealed by Ao.
The 4E lore (which I strongly mislike) is deliberately vague on this point, but I think it asserts Abeir (along with all of "Abeirspace", I suppose) is actually separated by a planar boundary. Basically an alternate Prime, and one with unique planar properties which limit access. In this case it would always be possible (even if unlikely) that some ethereal curtain or astral colour pool or elemental vortex or Prime-to-Prime gate connection could link Abeir with other places.
Either way, I think Giths would know the route.  |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2013 01:21:42 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 01:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Yeah, I would love to see some more Spelljammer love. Unfortunately, I loaned my copy of Dungeon Issue #92 (with Polyhedron #151) to a friend and never got it back. Evidently Dragon Issue #339 also had some Spelljammer material.
The entry for 623 DR in Grand History of the Realms acknowledges the actual existence of the 'Spelljammer' itself. Brian James once confirmed that the entry was a direct [and deliberate] spelljamming reference in 3e Realmslore. Additionally, it reinforces most of the vague spelljamming references that have been included previously in 3e sources like Serpent Kingdoms and Lords of Madness for example. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11693 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 14:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Wooly's answer said it all:
Spelljammer was 2E
Abeir (distinct from Abeir-Toril) was 4E
3E never bridged the gap, there is no canon connection.
For all we know, Abeir shares the same orbit as Toril but is never visible because it's on the exact opposite side of the sun. Spelljammers would've noticed this, but they haven't been allowed to say anything since 2E. Alternately, "Abeirspace" might be disconnected from the Flow, not impossible to reach (in theory) but so far off the known spacelanes that spelljammers never dare try. Alternately, or additionally, Abeir might be locked behind an impenetrable crystal sphere, sealed by Ao.
The 4E lore (which I strongly mislike) is deliberately vague on this point, but I think it asserts Abeir (along with all of "Abeirspace", I suppose) is actually separated by a planar boundary. Basically an alternate Prime, and one with unique planar properties which limit access. In this case it would always be possible (even if unlikely) that some ethereal curtain or astral colour pool or elemental vortex or Prime-to-Prime gate connection could link Abeir with other places.
Either way, I think Giths would know the route.
Actually, this is a little closer an answer than I thought I'd get. My thoughts were that they're actually separate crystal spheres (i.e. separate primes now), but then the question has to be begged of what links the two. I guess it could be explained away that their crystal sphere is hardened off from spelljamming access, kind of like Athas is supposed to be where it has its own inner planes, etc....
In fact, I hadn't thought about it until just now, but might we find out that Athas and Abeir are actually in the same crystal sphere. Totally separate planets mind you, separated by vast distances of space, but maybe in the same crystal sphere. If that were true, would we find that Athas is actually coming inline with realmspace as well? Just throwing that out as an idea... not sure I would like it.... really not sure.
Along with these ideas, there was something where Eberron and the realms were becoming Coterminus and linked. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 14:27:59
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The 'official' explanation (or as close to one as I've heard) is that "Abeir exists within Realmspace (the crystal Sphere), but it is 'out of sync' with Toril."
That's one of those "It Magic!" type explanations. We get the pure joy of figuring it out for ourselves (which was pretty much how everything in 4eFR worked).
I personally figure it was in the Astral, because of the silverish skies, but whatever. Like I said, we all get to decide for ourselves where it came from, where it is now (I like the 'other side of the sun' thing), and where it is going. In fact, I am sure many of us would love to give suggestions as to where it can go (come 5e). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 16:19:27
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| Abeir exists in an alternate prime material plane, occupying the same position in wildspace as Toril. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 03:40:22
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| The main argument vs Athas and Abeir sharing the same space is that one of them got smeared all over Toril while the continued to remain distantly intact. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 12:46:41
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See, that's along the line of thought that I'd been wondering as well (i.e. different crystal sphere or the same crystal sphere with the other universe in a different "phase"). If you recall, where did you read this "official" statement (and I know that amongst all the stuff we read, that may be hard to remember)?
If it is "out of phase" but still part of the same crystal sphere, that opens up a whole new cosmology concept, and could maybe explain some of the cosmology changes between editions. I.E. maybe the changes that made the inner planes all combine is actually part of that "phased" universe. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 13:01:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The main argument vs Athas and Abeir sharing the same space is that one of them got smeared all over Toril while the continued to remain distantly intact.
Not necessarily... and again, I'd hate to shoot my foot off because I'm not really fond of Athas personally.... If Abeir was shunted into this other "phase" of the crystal sphere, Athas as a planet may already exist within that "phase" of realmspace. In fact, it may have originated there. Or, perhaps the reason why its so psionically endowed is it and Glyth had some relationship, but only Abeir and Toril are coming in sync. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 16:16:40
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^^^ AGREED ^^^
What we know of the Athas - the entirety of the Tyr region - would fit in the Raurin Desert (I know, because I had considered - briefly - placing it there once). What we know of Abeir is even less.
What we do know is there is an entire planet out there somewhere that can be detailed, and the whole DarkSun Campaign setting would barely be a tiny region on such a world. There is absolutelty NO reason why Athas can't be the same world as Abeir.
'Closed' plane with no gods, 'Dragon Kings', all sorts of odd reptilian critters and races that have 'gone a different route'. Sounds to me like a no-brainer, IMO.
Oh... and it could also easily be the Saurial homeworld as well, and actually makes perfect sense that way and fixes a continuity glitch (because we have the same exact four species of saurials living in Malatra, and they are consider NATIVE to Toril). The tiny glimpse of that world we got in one of the saurial novels - Elminster fighting 'strange, feathered dragons' - also fits well with what we know of Athas and Abeir (which isn't much at all, when we come right down to it).
Just sayin' - no reason to over-complicate the already 'messy' D&D cosmology. The more settings get interconnected, the more adventuring opportunities for everyone. Or have we forgotten that FR is a D&D RPG setting? (My point being that from a purely novel perspective, I would probably greatly dislike that, but I already greatly dislike anything regarding Abeir, so there you go). I don't like the Abeir lore* as is, and hate reading about it, but I would consider using it if the back-story was tied to already existing lore (which they just never bothered to do, even though the opportunities were there in spades).
*And by 'Abeir lore' I don't mean what Ed wrote for the 4eFRCS - that was probably the most interesting aspects of 4eFR. I mean the whole concept of Abeir itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2013 16:23:20 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 00:42:47
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If it helps, here's Ed Greenwood's answer regarding Abeir and spelljamming that he gave over on Matt's Loremaster website:
Ed Greenwood
November 22, 2009
If you spelljammed up off Abeir, where you found yourself would depend on WHEN you left the surface of Abeir.
If it was immediately before, during, or after its "collision/passing through/intersection with" Toril, you would be in Realmspace (in probably very dangerous "weather" of bursts of spontaneous, uncontrolled lightning, vortices of destructive winds, wild magic, and other hairy, ferocious and everchanging side-effects of the two worlds "passing through" each other).
If it was long before or well after that time (more than a perhaps six months or so, either way), you'd find yourself lost in the phlogiston...somewhere. (I.e. up to your DM what the nearest crystal spheres would be.) Or in another dimension altogether (again, according to your DM's desires). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11693 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 17:41:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
If it helps, here's Ed Greenwood's answer regarding Abeir and spelljamming that he gave over on Matt's Loremaster website:
Ed Greenwood
November 22, 2009
If you spelljammed up off Abeir, where you found yourself would depend on WHEN you left the surface of Abeir.
If it was immediately before, during, or after its "collision/passing through/intersection with" Toril, you would be in Realmspace (in probably very dangerous "weather" of bursts of spontaneous, uncontrolled lightning, vortices of destructive winds, wild magic, and other hairy, ferocious and everchanging side-effects of the two worlds "passing through" each other).
If it was long before or well after that time (more than a perhaps six months or so, either way), you'd find yourself lost in the phlogiston...somewhere. (I.e. up to your DM what the nearest crystal spheres would be.) Or in another dimension altogether (again, according to your DM's desires).
Hmmmm, now that's very interesting... especially since its canon now. So, leaving the planet definitely doesn't drop you into realmspace unless its during this time in which they're intersected and actually serves to put you elsewhere. Almost like there's no ties to the realmspace crystal sphere itself and there is no "crystal sphere" surrounding it at all. So, their sky may have actually been phlogiston.
Also, interestingly, if their bounds were phlogiston and not a crystal sphere and the world were inhabited by very elemental based beings.... the fact that the phlogiston is none of the four elemental bases could somehow play some factors in the planet's isolation. Also, it should also be noted that when two crystal spheres near each other, the phlogiston between them thickens and forces them from intersecting. If Abeir is an oddity that somehow keeps out the phlogiston without a crystal sphere shell, perhaps that's how they are able to "intersect". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11693 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 18:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
If it helps, here's Ed Greenwood's answer regarding Abeir and spelljamming that he gave over on Matt's Loremaster website:
Ed Greenwood
November 22, 2009
If you spelljammed up off Abeir, where you found yourself would depend on WHEN you left the surface of Abeir.
If it was immediately before, during, or after its "collision/passing through/intersection with" Toril, you would be in Realmspace (in probably very dangerous "weather" of bursts of spontaneous, uncontrolled lightning, vortices of destructive winds, wild magic, and other hairy, ferocious and everchanging side-effects of the two worlds "passing through" each other).
If it was long before or well after that time (more than a perhaps six months or so, either way), you'd find yourself lost in the phlogiston...somewhere. (I.e. up to your DM what the nearest crystal spheres would be.) Or in another dimension altogether (again, according to your DM's desires).
Hmmmm, now that's very interesting... especially since its canon now. So, leaving the planet definitely doesn't drop you into realmspace unless its during this time in which they're intersected and actually serves to put you elsewhere. Almost like there's no ties to the realmspace crystal sphere itself and there is no "crystal sphere" surrounding it at all. So, their sky may have actually been phlogiston.
Also, interestingly, if their bounds were phlogiston and not a crystal sphere and the world were inhabited by very elemental based beings.... the fact that the phlogiston is none of the four elemental bases could somehow play some factors in the planet's isolation. Also, it should also be noted that when two crystal spheres near each other, the phlogiston between them thickens and forces them from intersecting. If Abeir is an oddity that somehow keeps out the phlogiston without a crystal sphere shell, perhaps that's how they are able to "intersect".
hmmm, something else just occurred to me.... we know that the Imaskari somehow hardened the crystal sphere and prevented other deity's from coming in. What if this hardening of the crystal sphere would have effectively "destroyed" Abeir whenever the phlogiston shunted it back towards the realmspace crystal sphere. What if the reason Ao actually removed this spell was to allow Abeir and Toril to cross one another again? I can't see that it was keeping the two safely separated, because the two were separated long before the Imaskari came along. But the fact that the intersection came only 27 years after its removal might imply some knowledge on Ao's part of an impending intersection. Heck, for all we know, Ao had little control of Abeir once he separated it out. Maybe he just shunted those primordials away to weaken them because they were getting powerful enough to challenge him. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 21:53:45
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Abeir had something called the steelsky covering it. A chunk of it accompanied Returned Abeir when it appeared on Toril. The steelsky is a metallic-hued vault, made of arambar, the residual energy of a fallen Dawn Titan named Arambar. It covers the entire landmass of Returned Abeir.
My take is that Abeir exists in a pocket universe, slightly out of phase with Toril. The pocket universe is just big enough to contain Abeir and it's atmosphere. I suspect that there was no sun or other celestial bodies visible from Abeir, so the steelsky was created, perhaps by sacrificing Arambar, to provide light and warmth, in lieu of a sun. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 23:20:01
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More primordial stuff... 
Anyhow, I had just assumed that it had its own version of a Crystal Sphere around it - one that was located where the atmosphere stops on most worlds (making it a self-contained world-sphere). Considering the genesis of Abeir, that Crystal Sphere was probably much thinner then a normal one, and would be mostly undetectable by mundane means.
The odd part is, would you then be in the same phlogiston that contains the other crystal spheres from known (D&D) space? If so, then that kinda throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing about Abeir and Toril occupying the same physical space. Anyone else noticed how much all of this sounds a lot like Eberron's cosmology? With world-planes going 'in and out of conjunction' every few hundred years or so?
Ewwwww... somebody Eberron'd all over my Toril. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2013 00:34:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11693 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 23:27:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Abeir had something called the steelsky covering it. A chunk of it accompanied Returned Abeir when it appeared on Toril. The steelsky is a metallic-hued vault, made of arambar, the residual energy of a fallen Dawn Titan named Arambar. It covers the entire landmass of Returned Abeir.
My take is that Abeir exists in a pocket universe, slightly out of phase with Toril. The pocket universe is just big enough to contain Abeir and it's atmosphere. I suspect that there was no sun or other celestial bodies visible from Abeir, so the steelsky was created, perhaps by sacrificing Arambar, to provide light and warmth, in lieu of a sun.
Another take on it could be that whenever they were separated out, they needed something to separate the surface of the world from the phlogiston. Since they didn't have a crystal sphere shell, maybe one of the primordials named Arambar tried to pierce the phlogiston and was destroyed (heck, maybe he was a being of fire and whenever he touched the phlogiston.... KABOOM.....). In his death, his "blood" formed a barrier around the planet forming the steelsky. Maybe the little bit of light being shed is his blood continually burning phlogiston for the last 30+ thousand years.
So, whenever Abeir, bobbing out in the flow, comes crashing into realmspace's crystal sphere, you get some odd intermixing as they try to merge again but instead transfer some effects from one to the other. Part of that could be that Abeir steals some of Toril's crystal sphere shell and maybe begins growing itself into a normal crystal sphere after the two separate again after the sundering?
Heck, maybe having Horus-re over there... and possibly Lathander too (yeah, I know, Lathander and Amaunathor are supposedly the same being... in light of the many lies gods have told, I wouldn't be surprised if this was one as well).... maybe they've formed a new sun over the portions of transferred Toril? Maybe the "blue fire" of the spellplague has something to do with a portion of realmspace's sun being transferred to Abeir, though that's not a necessity. Just to note, when Abeir was moved out was after Dendar the Night Serpent had already swallowed the sun.... so nothing says that Abeir really had a lot of light, nor would its denizens have missed it. Maybe some similar deity has done the same over Maztica. It could be interesting if Abeir ends up being a crystal sphere with multiple suns that actually orbit the world (or should we say multiple flaming moons). In fact, what ever happened to the miniature sun that was being created over Elversult by the Risen Sun Heresy (which what a fabulous illusion/lie that is.... Nimbral disappeared too, no? So many wonderful lies....)? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 21:35:41
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These descriptions make it seem Abeir exists in what AD&D 1E would call a demiplane. Basically a place in the universe which overlaps one or many others, and which sometimes removes or deposits things (at random, although usually things to which it's attuned) ... not unlike Ravenloft. This would at least explain why Abeir is filled with such improbably fantastic species.
Now I begin to wonder if Abeir is merely one domain from a greater landscape of extradimensional lost editions, the Demiplane of Revision? Could pieces of other retcons and failed game settings continue to rain upon Toril whenever cataclysmic events weaken and blur the planar boundaries?
Oh those poor elves of Evermeet, trapped in this nightmarish place, haha.
Yeah, that's right. The retcon game can be played from both ends. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Feb 2013 21:41:38 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 23:54:36
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Am not sure if am way off topic here, but I think a spelljamming boat was used during the second book of the series that deals with the blades of the moonsea?
The main hero went up in a boat that could fly, went about the cloud line, and I think even visited the moon to save someone? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2013 : 00:38:18
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Yup.
My least-favorite part of an otherwise excellent series.
The Neogi were way too 'slapstick' for my taste (IMHO), and its sad because they are one of the very few SJ-specific monsters I ever liked. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Spelljamming/Crystal Spheres and Abeir & Toril
