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AlmightyPhalanx
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3 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2013 :  23:08:16  Show Profile Send AlmightyPhalanx a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
(For edition 3.5, exclusively)

Hey there, I am confused about something I hope someone can clarify.

According to the sun elf description:

"Sun elves favor the traditional paths of the elven folk: fighter and wizard. No sun elf could truly be described as a barbarian, although a sun elf raised among wilder kin might, on very rare occasions, choose to take levels in the barbarian class. They make good bards, and even if they are not noted for their light-hearted revels, the ancient songs and lore of a learned bard are worthy of a sun elf’s respect. Sun elves are also the foremost clerics and paladins among the elven races. The arts of stealth and archery are not widely practiced among sun elves, so rangers and rogues are relatively scarce among them."


However, to my knowledge there can be no paladins with the Seldarine as their patron deity, since none of the Seldarine will grant divine spellcasting to lawful followers. Sun Elves are extremely zealous, and I cannot imagine one of them being a paladin or divine spellcaster of a non-Seldarine deity.


My question is; can there be an elf Paladin who has one of the Seldarine as his patron?

MrHedgehog
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Posted - 04 Feb 2013 :  23:13:31  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chaotic deities have Paladins such as Sune and Selune. Paladins and monks don't have the one step alignment rule. In non third edition clerics don't have this rule either. In universe characters probably don't know their or their deities' alignment. I would not take that rule very seriously. In Planescape there is a cleric of Siva who is good but Siva is evil that lives on the plane of vacuum. That cleric probably doesn't consider Siva evil (as real Hindus would not either I'm surprised it was printed, how touchy!)

Edited by - MrHedgehog on 04 Feb 2013 23:18:12
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Kilvan
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  00:09:41  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is not Realm-Canon, nor do I think it should be allowed, but there is a paladin-ish Prestige Class for Corellon' champions called accordingly The Champion of Corellon. You can find it in Races of Destiny, an official sourcebook but not for the Realms.

My house rule for paladins is that the Deity must allow for LG followers. If he does, then he accepts paladins, even if there are no official orders. That is not the case for Corellon, or any other elven god. Canon orders such as for Sune and Selune, as MrHedgehog pointed out, are the exception.

Rules as written do not forbid any paladin of any race of any deity, I think.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  01:02:53  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Paladins were very specific sub-class, limited to humans and lawful good. This got turned on its head by Dragonbait, the Saurial paladin, but still was a general rule. Other holy warriors existed in the realms, called "Crusaders" which were for pretty much every deity. In Corellon's Demihhuman Deities write up there are several orders named. This of course is before all the crazy 3rd Ed. any-class-you-want rules.

Also, there was a kit made for elves "Elven Knight" which would be kind of close. That was either in Evermeet Island of the Elves or the Complete Book of Elves.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  01:40:52  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The fey heritage of the elven pantheon is a reason why elves with actual paladin levels are usually not maintained by elven gods. To a fey mind the strict adherence to paladin dogma seems nearly impossible to uphold for long. Corellon might make an exception only once or twice in a generation and spontaneously sponsor an devoted elf with paladin qualities, so they have no brother and sisterhoods to form. I'd allow sun elf paladins of the other pantheons if they can stomach the spartan and rigid lifestyle of most human paladin orders. Noble sun elf fighters tend to indead pick up the Champion of Corellon class, and a sizable amount of them are lawful good.

Bladesingers take their 'duty to the people' sometimes to paladin levels of seriousness. Espescially sun elves are prone to take pride in their duty. Most bladesinger schools are 'sponsored' by Corellons clergy, and although the clergy has no real understanding of the bladesong art itself, they tend to closely cooperate with bladesingers.


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Kilvan
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Canada
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  02:32:25  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My first DM described the first Bladesinger I've met, 10 years ago, as socially the equivalent of a paladin for elves. This is of course a simplification, but close enough for newbies.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  04:56:34  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As someone who primarily reads the novels, I cannot really answer this question, despite being a devout of Corellon. I think the closest thing to a paladin of the Seldarine would be a Champion, but I could be wrong, since I don't know "class" rules. But paladins are usually LG, so they would be more likely to follow a god of that alignment. Personally, I don't see why there couldn't be a paladin of Corellon, but game rules are rules, so...*shrugs*

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 05 Feb 2013 04:57:03
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Ayrik
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  06:31:31  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are many Orders dedicated to Corellon, but the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower (from Demihuman Deities) is probably the most visible one outside of elven lands which has both elven paladins and bladesingers among its ranks. (These would be single-classed CG-aligned paladins dedicated to Corellon, in exception to normal 2E rules. Obviously 3.5E rules allow greater flexibility.)

This fellowship is a loosely structured organization which is dedicated to the recovery/protection of lost elven relics from long-abandoned elven realms, tombs, temples, etc. They can be recognized (when not travelling in disguise) by the sky blue cloaks they favour, by their arms (always elven chainmail, longswords, and longbows, in conscious imitation of their patron), and by the fine silver circlets they often wear on the brow. Little else is said about them: they have sometimes allied with individual Harpers, they possess an open-ended adventurers' charter in Cormyr, and when in human lands they observe the human codes of chivalry.

I found this page - it is consistent with my canon information but also provides more details without citing any sources.

When people say bladesingers are "elven paladins" they usually mean that bladesingers have the same sort of fanatical zeal and intolerance of injustice as paladins, although a bladesinger's cause is really the elven cause instead a deity's cause (which I suppose means they might, for example, champion the individual over the authority and "do the right thing, even if it breaks the rules"). There isn't really much practical distinction between the beliefs of paladins and bladesingers who serve Corellon. Arrogant sun elves would be ideally suited candidates, half-elves probably wouldn't qualify for the fellowship (at least not for the elite paladin and bladesinger positions), and the accursed drow (or half-drow) are obviously an insult to the faith.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Feb 2013 07:22:11
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1518 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  09:55:56  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
(...)
I found this page - it is consistent with my canon information but also provides more details without citing any sources.
(...)

Actually, this page transcripts the info found in Demihuman Deities. And IMHO, bladesingers are considered the elven paladins simply because they are considered the ultimate champions of their race, the epitome of their people's ideals. While paladins are beautiful, good and holy, bladesinger combine perfectly swordcraft, arcane magic and artistic skills.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 05 Feb 2013 16:20:15
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Ayrik
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  10:18:59  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was trying to say that the usual descriptions and requirements for paladins assume they champion "mainstream" LG human values (orderly society, respect for authority, justice, productivity, chivalry, piety), and that elven paladins (especially those who serve Corellon) would instead champion "mainstream" CG elven values (spontaneous society, respect for individuals, freedom, pleasure, equality, magic). Not printed as such in the lore, but it seems like obvious logic to me.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Feb 2013 10:21:45
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Diffan
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  10:21:01  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just have a Paladin of Freedom (v3.5 Unearthed Arcana) be devoted to Corellon. There are even Elven Paladin racial substitution levels in Races of the Wild supplement. Sure, it's generic and not specifically FR, but it'snot wrong or unheard of.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 05 Feb 2013 11:17:40
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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  14:02:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
remember as well that elves are not limited to the elven pantheon. Some can worship within the Faerunian pantheon. For instance, Mystra has paladinic orders. I could actually see a decent number of Mystra's paladins being sun elves. Similiarly, some other deities might have small paladinic orders that might include elves due to the closeness said deity has to elven ideals (Chauntea, Ilmater, Lathander, Nobanion, Shiallia, Siamorphe, Azuth)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Kilvan
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Canada
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  15:08:09  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not a fan of elven paladins (but It could happen for a non-elven god, just extremely rare), but I'm totaly against any paladin of non LG alignment. A paladin is a design in itself, centered on its code of conduct and alignment. If you want to be a holy warrior, just call yourself that and play another class. A CG paladin is just not a paladin. You can be a rogue with skill point in perform and call yourself a bard because you play music in taverns for money.

Just like my last character was a spirit shaman, but she called herself a druid because she was from a druidic community and followed that lifestyle. Same can be said for barbarians and monks. I could go on, but I guess you get my point.


Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"

Edited by - Kilvan on 05 Feb 2013 15:09:12
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Diffan
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  15:33:49  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

I'm not a fan of elven paladins (but It could happen for a non-elven god, just extremely rare), but I'm totaly against any paladin of non LG alignment. A paladin is a design in itself, centered on its code of conduct and alignment. If you want to be a holy warrior, just call yourself that and play another class. A CG paladin is just not a paladin. You can be a rogue with skill point in perform and call yourself a bard because you play music in taverns for money.




.......or you could just use a perfectly fine alternative mechanic that allows for Paladins of other alignments. These paladins have existed for quite some time and even in 3E we saw 3 other distinct varients for them (4 if you count the Blackguard/anti-paladin PrC) and in 4th, they removed the requirement for LG-only altogether (though there still were alignment requirements and codes to follow). There are mechanics in the FRCS that allows paladins to worship other non-LG deities (which breaks the rules here as well). So to me, all these aspects that go against and/or out right break the "traditional" paladin class requirements shows me that they weren't very strong to begin with or done for purely flavor reasons and little else. Same thing by removing Stat-requirements and Racial restrictions on certain classes.

Yet for some reason, people really get hung up on some perceived "right way" to play a game. I'm fine with DM's requiring a specific element in their games (no non-LG paladins, no non-elven Bladesingers, No dwarven wizards, etc) because that's their game and their rules. But the overall mechanics of a whole system shouldn't be so exclusive or attempt to force some notion that MY group will play the same way nor should the rules for that either.



So AlmightyPhalanx, to answer your question: Yes, there can be elven Paladins who worship the Seldarine. If your going strictly by the Rules-as-Written then you'll need to ask your DM if you can play a Paladin of Freedom and that way, can worship any CG deity you wish. Barring that, you can ask just to lift the LG requirement from the class (which is perfectly fine as well). Basically don't feel that you have to be tied down to what some book says so long as your DM is cool with it, have fun!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  15:36:40  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is the description for Elven Knight from Elves Of Evermeet - I think it is as close as you are going to find to any kind of elven paladin. It would be easy enough to take this kit, assign it one of the names from Corellon's Demihuman Deities description linked to above (Knights of the Golden Wyrm, the Blade of Sahandrian, the Fey Staghorns, and the Swords of the Seldarine. On Evermeet, the Wings of Yathaghera, the Knights of the Alicorn, the Weavers of Bladesong, and the Vassals of the Reverend Ones) and give them one or two Paladin spell-like abilities granted by Corellon as they progress in level, and call it an elven paladin.

I would, however, argue that this Kit should also be limited to Lawful Good, as its center is an unbreakable Code of Conduct. You follow codes, you are lawful.

Elven Knight
Description: Only the finest Gold elven warriors are chosen as knights, the elite defenders of Evermeet. Resplendent in shining elven plate, mounted upon proud, barded moon horses, armed with tall, white lances and enchanted elven long swords, the elven knights are a small but invincible handful of defenders, each worth
a dozen ordinary warriors.

By tradition, elven knights are Gold elves, although membership has sometimes been offered to those of other subraces. One legend claims that centuries ago, the knights of the Elven Court at Myth Drannor offered a knighthood to the human Sha'Quessir Mirabella, but this is dismissed as a fable.

Elven knights must be of good alignment, and must have the following minimum attributes: Strength 14, Dexterity 16, Constitution 15, Wisdom 12.

Role: The knights are among the leading defenders of the island. Their secondary role is as personal defenders of the queen. Most knights must remain on Evermeet, available for muster at the queenís orders, but some adventure on the mainland, keeping contact with Amlaruil through the use of elfrunes.

Weapon Proficiencies: Required: lance (any, player choice), sword (any, player choice), longbow.
Recommended: battle axe, dagger, javelin.
Nonweapon Proficiencies: Bonus proficiencies: riding (land-based, horse), heraldry.
Recommended proficiencies: animal handling, animal training, etiquette (general), endurance, armorer, gaming (warrior).

Equipment: Elven knights must start play with one sword and must purchase a suit of elven chain or elven plate when they can afford to.

Special Benefits: Knights receive +1 bonus to hit with a mounted lance, and an additional +1 bonus with bow and sword for every three levels they gain. This is in addition to normal elven bonuses with these weapons. They receive an additional +1 bonus to hit all Drow.
- All elven knights begin play with a moonhorse mount (see Chapter 9).
- Elven knights receive a +4 bonus to reaction rolls from all elves.

Special Hindrances: Elven knights must follow a code of honor in the same manner as the Cavalier kit (see The Complete Fighter's Handbook). They must defend any elf they see in need and must fight any orcs, goblins, Drow, giants, or other evil creatures whom they encounter. Most elven knights retain a prejudicial dislike
for dwarves and will, at best, only tolerate dwarves in their presence.

Wealth Options: Elven knights receive the standard fighter's starting wealth of 5d4x10 gp.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  15:59:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

This is the description for Elven Knight from Elves Of Evermeet - I think it is as close as you are going to find to any kind of elven paladin.


I think it should also be noted that this kit comes from the 2E era. In 2E, humans were the only race allowed to become paladins (except on Krynn, which was way lenient on class restrictions, compared to the other settings and Core).

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  16:31:31  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are also the demi-paladins of the "Complete Book of Paladins", another source for 2e. Since they must be fighter/clerics, only some deities (Corellon included) would allow them.

Oh, and the 2e "Legends & Lore" and the FR "Powers & Pantheons" also have paladins of CG alignment, one in Horus and the other in Horus-Re entry.

Finally, there is a number of Dragon Magazine that deals not with paladins, but with the sacred warrior class of each alignment. Personally, I'm with keeping the paladin LG, and opening exceptions only if the setting is designed to allow then (like DragonLance Silvanesti).

Besides, I'm more a "paladins are lawful good, undead are evil" kind of DM. So, for me the champions of the elves - for the reasons I mentioned and for the ideals of their alignment - still are the Bladesingers. Since they are not in DL, magic there is more restricted, and elves are a bit different, there are elven paladins there.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Kilvan
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Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  16:50:23  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So to me, all these aspects that go against and/or out right break the "traditional" paladin class requirements shows me that they weren't very strong to begin with or done for purely flavor reasons and little else. Same thing by removing Stat-requirements and Racial restrictions on certain classes.

Yet for some reason, people really get hung up on some perceived "right way" to play a game.



That is a whole other debate, but I agree that the paladin class come with the strongest stereotypical archetype. It is a mistake to play every paladins as the exact same boring Lawful-Stupid shining knight, even within the same church. Eric Scott de Bie makes great paladins, who really break those stereotypes. Yet, they are all strongly LG.

I proud of my current paladin of Hoar, he isn't shamed to use the backdoor quietly instead of breaking the front gate. I stand by that a CG paladin, code of conduct or not, just isn't a paladin any more than a wizard who can't cast spells.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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Ayrik
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Canada
6817 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  19:33:58  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, if you consider that a paladin is essentially a special mix of fighter/cleric then elves really shouldn't have access to the class; they traditionally never had any fighter/cleric multiclassing options, they favoured fighter/mage (which, incidentally, can be a bladesinger). Dwarves would be a far better choice for demihuman paladin.

Game mechanics aside, the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower definitely describes itself as having "elven paladins".

[/Ayrik]
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  20:34:13  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Outside of elven homelands, the most frequently encountered agents of an elven knightly order belong to the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower, a loosely structured organization dedicated to the recovery of lost elven relics from long-abandoned elven realms.

This is all DD says about the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower :) - Knights, not Paladins :D
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Ayrik
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  20:49:52  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DD is not the only source. I'm (half-idly) digging through my Dragons to find the source of the rest of my info, I know it's in there somewhere, but my notes (actually a character sheet) failed to cite the source.

[/Ayrik]
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Farrel
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  21:30:01  Show Profile Send Farrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlmightyPhalanx

(For edition 3.5, exclusively)
...snip...
My question is; can there be an elf Paladin who has one of the Seldarine as his patron?


If you follow the guidelines within the nearest, edition specific, FR Campaign Setting (3.0), then nope. Sune is the only CG deity to have a special permit.

Remember that it's your Realms though
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Diffan
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  21:50:22  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan



I'm proud of my current paladin of Hoar, he isn't shamed to use the backdoor quietly instead of breaking the front gate. I stand by that a CG paladin, code of conduct or not, just isn't a paladin any more than a wizard who can't cast spells.



And yet there are paladins of other alignments outside of Lawful Good officially creted by the game designers. I respect that you don't view anyting outside the vein of LG a "Paladin", but the actual game rules and mechanics would disagree with you.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Hmmm, if you consider that a paladin is essentially a special mix of fighter/cleric then elves really shouldn't have access to the class; they traditionally never had any fighter/cleric multiclassing options, they favoured fighter/mage (which, incidentally, can be a bladesinger). Dwarves would be a far better choice for demihuman paladin.


Which is great were the OP asking for pre-3E mechanics/game rules. But (s)he asks for 3.5 Exclusively and as we know, there are no racial requirements or exclusions for any race when taking a core class. So "technically speaking" elves can be a Fighter/Cleric or Paladin. But like Farrel says, it's his/her Realms and should be allowed to what whatever they please within it.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 05 Feb 2013 :  22:41:35  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most elves pay some sort of tribute to Corellon, but since you're looking for a paladin, then yeah, either the Forgotten Flower or a Paladin of Freedom. I own Demihuman Deities but I don't normally look at the statistics since I don't play D&D much, but one of the few times I did play I was a Paladin of Freedom. I prefer to role play through writing, and so the technicalities don't matter as much.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Kilvan
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Posted - 06 Feb 2013 :  00:13:24  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad that there are rules to allow for non-LG paladins, because I want people to play the game the way they want. If WotC is able to provide ruling for such demands (CG paladins, monster PCs, gods stats, stuff like that), all the better. But I believe that official rules for Paladins of Freedom are more to respond to fan demands to an acknowledgment that paladin should be anything other than LG.

But as with anything else, as Farrel just pointed out, this is YOUR Realms.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"

Edited by - Kilvan on 06 Feb 2013 00:13:41
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 07 Feb 2013 :  07:33:15  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The question here is really one of "What's a paladin?" (cookie to whoever gets that reference).

Is a paladin a beacon of lawful good? A paragon of justice, order, compassion, and chivalry?

Or is a paladin a soldier? A warrior of a god, empowered to carry out their will?

Paladins, generally speaking, aren't empowered by the personification of "lawful good" itself. They're empowered by the lawful good deities they worship. But why would only lawful good deities empower mortal agents in this way?

I personally lean towards the "champion of a god" school of thought and allow paladins of different alignments.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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