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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 11:26:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
Do you actually have any evidence of this so-called *on-line hate* at Candlekeep that hasn't been mirrored elsewhere? Or is this just continuing the typical Hidden Lord nonsense . . . more spouting off about stuff you really don't understand?
You seem to be spouting off about things you don't really understand D-Brane.
Yes, evidence for "on-line hate" is abundant at Candlekeep... and worse, it is mirrored elsewhere.
(Though I am left to wonder, if evidence was absent, would you consider that absence of evidence? Alas, that is besides the point, as the evidence is abundant.)
You know, I think we've had quite enough of your "spouting off," THL. Goodbye. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 15:16:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Guys, c'mon. Just let it go/take the night off/whatever. Let's just relax and enjoy the Realms, hey? I just read through 88 pages of an Elminster novel, collecting names and lore, with a feisty cat in my lap and I didn't even get scratched, and I'm feeling pretty good about it.
I'm the Sage, and I approve this message!  |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 03:19:29
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Long Live RAS!
Long Live Drizzt!
Seems that Drizzt sells. I am looking over what’s in stock at Barnes and Nobles and other books stores that still maintain a modest Forgotten Realms section instead of just tossing Forgotten Realms novels up alphabetically by author. That Forgotten Realms shelf has two dozen copies of Drizzt books, and that was how I found Richard Lee Byers works (+1), and gave Ed Greenwood’s works another try. Ed’s novels were an acquired taste for me.
I wonder how much profit RAS and Drizzt bring in compared to the rest of the team.
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 04:47:57
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| I never saw what's the problem with it, really. Just as I never understood the deal with the Chosen of Mystra. I never read a Drizzt or an Elminster novel, and I'm not particularly a fan of either character (as they're presented in source material anyway, can't say anything about the novels, obviously). But I have nothing against them. It's not as if they're making any big upheavals (no, not the Chosen either - they're more conservative on their ways than anything else, meaning they mostly keep the status-quo) that might upset anyone. Alright, there's a page dedicated to a character sheet for each of them in the FRCS and those could be used for something I'd find more interesting. But I can deal with that. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 17:11:32
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I seem to have a love/hate relationship with him. I was a huge fan at the begining, always waiting for the next dark elf book to come out. Nowadays I find myself underwhelmed at the prospect of the next release.
For me it wasn't just about drizzt, it was about the other companions who shared his adventures. Most of these characters are now gone and the stories about this drow are much the worse for it. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 17:48:36
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I seem to have a love/hate relationship with him. I was a huge fan at the begining, always waiting for the next dark elf book to come out. Nowadays I find myself underwhelmed at the prospect of the next release.
For me it wasn't just about drizzt, it was about the other companions who shared his adventures. Most of these characters are now gone and the stories about this drow are much the worse for it. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 17:49:59
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Arcanus,
While I agree that the companions (especially the Companions of the Hall) were a huge part of why I enjoyed R.A. Salvatore's novels and I too miss them (I'll confess that I have yet to read the Neverwinter series for this reason), there are two things that you have to keep in mind about that aspect of Drizzt's present situation.
1) Just like vampires or dragons or any other near immortal race, the very life span of elves must create the classic dilemma of 'living on past your friends of shorter lived races'. I mean, this is what Elrond gets so worked up about for Arwen remember? Lol. If your main character is from a race of beings that measures it's life in centuries, then you are just going to have to grapple with that at some point. People like that have lives with first acts, second acts, and fifth acts. Each time the cast of characters surrounding them would, by necessity, have to change (ask Ed, and by extension Elminster, about this one as well!).
2) We all know the choice to hop forward into the mid-to-late 1400's wasn't Bob's. I'd say he was 'lucky' enough as an author to have one of the few characters who actually could reasonably survive such a leap, but I'm sure (see 'cows, cash' above) Wizbro clearly planned the exact timing of their 'quantum leap' to allow for this fact. This doesn't make it Bob's fault that he had to suddenly write out most of the cast of supporting characters fans had come to know and love. I'm sure he had a lot more in mind for the relationship between Drizzt and Catti-Brie then he ended up being able to develop for example. That said, has spent the better part of two trilogies taking readers from point A to point B in the timeline and giving as many of his old characters worthwhile endings as possible. That's a lot more than fans might have had a reasonable expectation to get from an author.
Anyway, it's not my purpose on this thread to become some sort of R.A. Salvatore defender or apologist. He doesn't need me for that. Lol. While I like Drizzt, I enjoy many of the other characters in Bob's books more, and I enjoy many of the heroes (and anti-heroes) written by other Realms authors more than those. All I am saying is that Drizzt is decent character, Salvatore is a good Realms author (and, more importantly to me, an actually decent guy), and the literary success of his character has not in my view (as a Realms fan since the OGB in the 80's) in any way subtracted from the overall glory of the Realms. So, if you don't like Drizzt don't read about him. If you don't like drow, don't use them in your campaign. We all must surely agree that there are plenty of other books (my basement will attest to that...) and plenty of other adventures set in the Realms to choose from!
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 18:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Arcanus,
While I agree that the companions (especially the Companions of the Hall) were a huge part of why I enjoyed R.A. Salvatore's novels and I too miss them (I'll confess that I have yet to read the Neverwinter series for this reason), there are two things that you have to keep in mind about that aspect of Drizzt's present situation.
1) Just like vampires or dragons or any other near immortal race, the very life span of elves must create the classic dilemma of 'living on past your friends of shorter lived races'. I mean, this is what Elrond gets so worked up about for Arwen remember? Lol. If your main character is from a race of beings that measures it's life in centuries, then you are just going to have to grapple with that at some point. People like that have lives with first acts, second acts, and fifth acts. Each time the cast of characters surrounding them would, by necessity, have to change (ask Ed, and by extension Elminster, about this one as well!).
2) We all know the choice to hop forward into the mid-to-late 1400's wasn't Bob's. I'd say he was 'lucky' enough as an author to have one of the few characters who actually could reasonably survive such a leap, but I'm sure (see 'cows, cash' above) Wizbro clearly planned the exact timing of their 'quantum leap' to allow for this fact. This doesn't make it Bob's fault that he had to suddenly write out most of the cast of supporting characters fans had come to know and love. I'm sure he had a lot more in mind for the relationship between Drizzt and Catti-Brie then he ended up being able to develop for example. That said, has spent the better part of two trilogies taking readers from point A to point B in the timeline and giving as many of his old characters worthwhile endings as possible. That's a lot more than fans might have had a reasonable expectation to get from an author.
Anyway, it's not my purpose on this thread to become some sort of R.A. Salvatore defender or apologist. He doesn't need me for that. Lol. While I like Drizzt, I enjoy many of the other characters in Bob's books more, and I enjoy many of the heroes (and anti-heroes) written by other Realms authors more than those. All I am saying is that Drizzt is decent character, Salvatore is a good Realms author (and, more importantly to me, an actually decent guy), and the literary success of his character has not in my view (as a Realms fan since the OGB in the 80's) in any way subtracted from the overall glory of the Realms. So, if you don't like Drizzt don't read about him. If you don't like drow, don't use them in your campaign. We all must surely agree that there are plenty of other books (my basement will attest to that...) and plenty of other adventures set in the Realms to choose from!
I fully accept that time moves on and we all knew that the companions of the hall would come to an end. What i dont like is that bob has failed to fill the void left by their absence. Drizzt just moves on from one place to the next, kills a few baddies and moves on again.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that for me, the stories have no soul. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 20:53:22
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I basically haven't read any Drizzt beyond the Icewind Dale trilogy (which I loved when it was new) and the first chapter or two of a few random subsequent (and "prequel") novels. Some people prefer the familiar, especially in a setting like the Realms, a familiar character lifeline when drowning under a seemingly endless ocean of wonderful background details. Other people prefer variety, one trilogy and page after page of Drizzt writeups through a dozen game sourcebooks was plenty for me.
I think if you take away friendly old Drizzt then you have an intimidating land filled with strangers, it's difficult to feel like you belong in a world when you can barely navigate the landscape. Dragonlance basically "retired" the classic characters and brought in newer generations ... and I think that while many existing Dragonlance fans were satisfied, many also felt alienated or betrayed that their favourite characters were no longer seen as "important" ... I think the most telling evidence would be how many Dragonlance titles have (not) appeared on the best seller lists next to RAS's Drizzt novels. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 23:14:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Arcanus,
While I agree that the companions (especially the Companions of the Hall) were a huge part of why I enjoyed R.A. Salvatore's novels and I too miss them (I'll confess that I have yet to read the Neverwinter series for this reason), there are two things that you have to keep in mind about that aspect of Drizzt's present situation.
1) Just like vampires or dragons or any other near immortal race, the very life span of elves must create the classic dilemma of 'living on past your friends of shorter lived races'. I mean, this is what Elrond gets so worked up about for Arwen remember? Lol. If your main character is from a race of beings that measures it's life in centuries, then you are just going to have to grapple with that at some point. People like that have lives with first acts, second acts, and fifth acts. Each time the cast of characters surrounding them would, by necessity, have to change (ask Ed, and by extension Elminster, about this one as well!).
2) We all know the choice to hop forward into the mid-to-late 1400's wasn't Bob's. I'd say he was 'lucky' enough as an author to have one of the few characters who actually could reasonably survive such a leap, but I'm sure (see 'cows, cash' above) Wizbro clearly planned the exact timing of their 'quantum leap' to allow for this fact. This doesn't make it Bob's fault that he had to suddenly write out most of the cast of supporting characters fans had come to know and love. I'm sure he had a lot more in mind for the relationship between Drizzt and Catti-Brie then he ended up being able to develop for example. That said, has spent the better part of two trilogies taking readers from point A to point B in the timeline and giving as many of his old characters worthwhile endings as possible. That's a lot more than fans might have had a reasonable expectation to get from an author.
Anyway, it's not my purpose on this thread to become some sort of R.A. Salvatore defender or apologist. He doesn't need me for that. Lol. While I like Drizzt, I enjoy many of the other characters in Bob's books more, and I enjoy many of the heroes (and anti-heroes) written by other Realms authors more than those. All I am saying is that Drizzt is decent character, Salvatore is a good Realms author (and, more importantly to me, an actually decent guy), and the literary success of his character has not in my view (as a Realms fan since the OGB in the 80's) in any way subtracted from the overall glory of the Realms. So, if you don't like Drizzt don't read about him. If you don't like drow, don't use them in your campaign. We all must surely agree that there are plenty of other books (my basement will attest to that...) and plenty of other adventures set in the Realms to choose from!
I fully accept that time moves on and we all knew that the companions of the hall would come to an end. What i dont like is that bob has failed to fill the void left by their absence. Drizzt just moves on from one place to the next, kills a few baddies and moves on again.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that for me, the stories have no soul. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 23:23:06
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| So many double posts! |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 12:18:57
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It is not just that Alystra, it is that the whole Drizzt story has become stale for me.
Too much of a good thing is a bad thing lol. Saying that, I will continue to buy the books in the hope that some of the old Salvatore magic will reappear. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 14:22:02
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I'm tempted to pick up the Drizzt series at the transitions, just because I like the premise of Drizzt having a fall back to his drow nature because of his life's frustations and his interaction with less savory characters.
Has RAS's skill in writing been effected by the years? I respect his ability to roll with the punch and wiggle Drizzt's story through the realms' most controversial time jump with detail instead of a big blank. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 18:34:59
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Arcanus, I absolutely get where you're coming from. The last few tales for me have been somewhat disappointing, if only because of the time-jump and everything that went with it. Character deaths, new characters entering the spotlight with whom I simply can't identify, and returning acquaintances who do not necessarily have Drizzy's best interests at heart- or anyone else's, ofr that matter. But I still liket hem, and still want to know what happens.
I don't think it's had a negative impact on his writing, if that's what you mean, Bladewind. To me, the books have only gotten better over the years- at least from a technichal perspective. I dislike some of the in-setting story directions of certain characters, but that's a different subect. (See above.) I do like what he did with the Transitions trilogy. Having a bunch of orcs for new neighbors is apt to make for an interesting situation. Among other things.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 02:08:07
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I still read every Drizzt book that comes out.
I do get annoyed on the forums however with the elitist attitude many of the Drizzt/Salvatore fanboys bring, disdaining any other author or characters . Not saying they are all like this, but we all know which annoying type I am talking about.
The ones who have like 20 posts on the forum, jump into threads that have nothing to do with Drizzt and end it with "Drizzt would easily beat him", "Entreri could easily beat him"
Or, "Nobody can beat grandmaster Kane!!!! he so easily took out Artemis that he must be invincible."
Seriously, the guy was in 1 Salvatore book, and these kids marked him as invincible the day after they finished the book.
"Gromph vs Elminster is easily Gromph wins! Drow vs puny humans and devious drow win every time. The only guy who could match him is Cadderly"
"Most poweful weapon in the realms? Poll:" enter a dozen Salvatore exclusive weapons here + 1 weapon from the only other book in the realms the guy read.
etc etc
For Example, we were having a good old chat about most powerful Warrior, and....
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2204&whichpage=3&SearchTerms=Grandmaster%2CKane
Unfortunately, While I am a Drizzt fan, I do read just about every other author lol.
Some authors of course, like to write a bit differently, and more realistic in the sense that a slight slippery surface could change a fight in a second, etc.
Salvatore's writing style tends to flavor his characters as unbeatable(I.E Drizzt would see the almost invisible slippery spot from the corner of his eye, and maneuver his opponent into it. Which is fine. His books, his rules.
But some of the fanboys of course come in and bash every other character who they deem inferior.
That is why you see a slightly annoyed tone when Drizzt is brought up. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 04:08:41
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| I will always feel love for Drizzt. Drizzt's books were my first step into this wonderful world of Realms and I am grateful for it. I think Homeland and the Dark Elf trilogy in general are very good books. Some of the best of the Realms. I really like all the characters, the setting, the themes and the writing. I have read Drizzt until the Orc King and been waiting for some years to continue now. I will probably continue when I find some time to spare for Drizzt from my other books and I think I am not a great fan of Salvatore's description of combat. I find it kind of boring. BUT what I really like about his books are the characters. Even some little unimportant characters usually have very good introductions and insights. I also really like how Salvatore manages to also tell us about the whole Silver Marches region and have many colorful characters and leaders of the region in his books. I am a big fan of Silver Marches so this is a giant plus to me. |
Edited by - farinal on 03 Feb 2013 04:49:37 |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 05:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I do get annoyed on the forums however with the elitist attitude many of the Drizzt/Salvatore fanboys bring, disdaining any other author or characters . Not saying they are all like this, but we all know which annoying type I am talking about.
The ones who have like 20 posts on the forum, jump into threads that have nothing to do with Drizzt and end it with "Drizzt would easily beat him", "Entreri could easily beat him"
Or, "Nobody can beat grandmaster Kane!!!! he so easily took out Artemis that he must be invincible."
Seriously, the guy was in 1 Salvatore book, and these kids marked him as invincible the day after they finished the book.
"Gromph vs Elminster is easily Gromph wins! Drow vs puny humans and devious drow win every time. The only guy who could match him is Cadderly"
"Most poweful weapon in the realms? Poll:" enter a dozen Salvatore exclusive weapons here + 1 weapon from the only other book in the realms the guy read.
etc etc
For Example, we were having a good old chat about most powerful Warrior, and....
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2204&whichpage=3&SearchTerms=Grandmaster%2CKane
Unfortunately, While I am a Drizzt fan, I do read just about every other author lol.
Some authors of course, like to write a bit differently, and more realistic in the sense that a slight slippery surface could change a fight in a second, etc.
Salvatore's writing style tends to flavor his characters as unbeatable(I.E Drizzt would see the almost invisible slippery spot from the corner of his eye, and maneuver his opponent into it. Which is fine. His books, his rules.
But some of the fanboys of course come in and bash every other character who they deem inferior.
That is why you see a slightly annoyed tone when Drizzt is brought up.
that's a lot of why i don't like Drizzit. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 06:16:47
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Wait...isn't Kane a monk?
"Man, at least I'm not a monk" is what fighters say to make themselves feel better. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 11:57:26
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I always liked Drizzt - the whole continually conflicted thing is nice. I don't think he is presented as unbeatable - he's almost died numerous times and has had his butt saved by his buddies many more. All this for a very short span of time, as far as Drow are concerned.
I'd have to say to anyone who thinks Gromph is a super-powerful wizard, "Pay closer attention." His archmage of Menzo title is not because he's the most powerful, its because his mother was. There are several masters of Sorcere that could handle him, and that is just looking at there one, relatively tiny city that could not even must up enough martial strength to take out Mithril Hall, which had no BIG spellhurler. If he was all that tough, his mother would be alive and his family would not be hurting as much as they are - oh and his daughter would not get away nearly so easily. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 14:59:04
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| I often wonder what the Realms would look like today if Drizzt had been a Duergar instead of a Drow. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 21:56:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I always liked Drizzt - the whole continually conflicted thing is nice. I don't think he is presented as unbeatable - he's almost died numerous times and has had his butt saved by his buddies many more. All this for a very short span of time, as far as Drow are concerned.
I'd have to say to anyone who thinks Gromph is a super-powerful wizard, "Pay closer attention." His archmage of Menzo title is not because he's the most powerful, its because his mother was. There are several masters of Sorcere that could handle him, and that is just looking at there one, relatively tiny city that could not even must up enough martial strength to take out Mithril Hall, which had no BIG spellhurler. If he was all that tough, his mother would be alive and his family would not be hurting as much as they are - oh and his daughter would not get away nearly so easily.
I think in Menzo, he is probably the most powerful. Other than the Spider mage(Who has not been mentioned in several editions), and the Lichdrow(now destroyed), we have never seen people stated as stronger
As far as Swordplay goes, he is generally portrayed as unbeatable. Which would be fine if not for fanboys taking it as more than it is.....one authors portrayal.
My only problem with the books is that he portrays Wizards as nothing more than lightning bolt fireball throwing weaklings most of the time.
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Edited by - Firestorm on 03 Feb 2013 22:04:17 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 22:07:38
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It's a weird paradigm. Without Drizzt, it's hard to say the Realms would have gotten the popularity it did (and thus the support in the form of more novels and supplements). I'm a fan of Drizzt. I think his story is a neat one, and Bob is just as nerdy and fun as any of my other loyal Realms fans. I also like that Bob first acknowledges Ed and the Realms as the source of his success. He's a good guy.
Edit: Books about Drizzt will continue for as long as they sell. They are selling very strongly, which indicates both successful stories, and characters. People don't return to stories they generally hate--regardless of what one might think. Drizzt has carried the Realms through some crappy times. Love or hate him, he's good for the Realms. |
Edited by - Matt James on 03 Feb 2013 22:09:29 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 22:13:33
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| I ''hated'' the character when Wotc had the year of the drow (same with dragons), that's all. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 17:23:32
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| @Matt - Well said. Drizzt did indeed carry through some tough times (I for one was appreciative of the Transitions series providing some more pre-spellplauge story-telling). |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 20:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I seem to have a love/hate relationship with him. I was a huge fan at the begining, always waiting for the next dark elf book to come out. Nowadays I find myself underwhelmed at the prospect of the next release.
I was never the "collector" or "hoarder" type when I was younger. I loved The Crystal Shard when I first read it, and I re-read it over and over again, I loved it so much. But I didn't feel any particular compulsion to rush out and get the next Drizzt book--or the next anything else, for that matter.
I grew up poor, and we were raised to savor what we had and make it last. We were taught not to be greedy or materialistic. So I wore out my copy of TCSh, obsessing over every little detail (to an even greater degree than the author or his editor ever did!), but I didn't even consider getting the following books for years.
I also had a hellacious assigned reading load in school, which pretty much consumed most of my time. I'm a slow reader, with assigned books or books for fun (especially books for fun). There just didn't seem to be much time for fun reading. What little I had, I seem to recall dedicating to Anne McCaffrey's "Dragonriders of Pern" series. But I didn't even go all that far with that series, either.
In the late '90s, after college, I shared an apartment with one of my brothers, and he got the Drizzt bug. He was curious why I still cherished my copy of TCSh so much, and asked if he could read it. I reluctantly agreed. When he returned it to me, he rushed out and bought the next two books in the series, Streams of Silver and The Halfling's Gem, as well as the complete first DragonLance trilogy. He seemed to be more of a consumer/spender than I ever was, back then.
I read those two books before he did, and thoroughly enjoyed them.
When I skimmed the book blurbs in the back of those old paperbacks, it dawned on me just how much I had missed when the rest of the series had continued on without me following along. I was curious about what else had happened with these characters. But I was also a bit intimidated, since there seemed to be quite a bit of a backlog, and I was still a very slow reader. So I just left it at that: the first three Drizzt books, as published. It was all very mysterious to me, at that point, and kinda cool like that.
Years later, in the mid-2000s, I was on a completely unrelated message board and there was a very eloquent guy who talked a lot about the fantasy, sci-fi, and comic book/graphic novel series that he had read and enjoyed, versus the ones he deplored. He was very clear about not going along with the popular opinion, or gushing about any particular author because of his celebrity status, but based his praise purely on his own personal enjoyment of the stories. I mentioned McCaffrey, and he acknowledged her stuff. And then in the middle of that conversation, I remembered how much I had thoroughly loved RAS's Drizzt stories, and asked him about those.
That was the first time I ever encountered the snooty, my-fantasy-is-better-than-yours, Drizzt-hater type.
And it was the last time I ever communicated with the jerk!
That experience sealed the deal for me as a Drizzt fan, helping me to decide definitively that what I had really wanted to do for all those years was to actually follow along with the character all the way through to its completion (or to the present state), and helping me to recognize a near-compulsion to stand by the character in defiance of the haters.
I lurked on the RAS boards for a while, and then joined. Reading more and more of the Drizzt books made me hungry for more and more lore--especially chronological stuff. I quickly reached the limit of the other fans' knowledge there, and decided to branch out. The WOTC forums were going through some big fiasco of games versus novels, and novels lost out as subjects of discussion, so I had to continue searching for a new destination. Eventually, I seized upon the 'Keep.
Again, I only lurked at first, trying to get the lay of the land. And there was a lot more Drizzt hate back then, I must say.
When I did finally join and begin posting, I tried to share my knowledge about the Drizzt books with other fans, as well as demonstrate how I thought they tied in with other stories and lore. And I asked lots of questions, readily admitting the limits of my own knowledge. I think that by using that approach, rather than coming in with guns a-blazin' and full of fury at all the hate, that I earned some respect from a lot of people here.
And I think that I quieted some of that outspoken hate against Drizzt, too, in the process.
Methinks it's still here, under the surface, but it's not so brazen as it was before.
As long as people are just saying they're bored with the character or they feel he's become stale for them, there's really not much I can say about that. Everybody's entitled to their opinion.
Personally, I read most of the Drizzt series in fairly short order, having waited so many years before really, properly tackling the series, and having a long backlist readily available at public libraries. (How many other Realms authors can lay claim to that?)
As I read along, I noticed the criticisms of the character and the series and the writer, and I had to weigh their legitimacy. Initially, I was determined not to listen to any of it, and just to enjoy the stories as a fan. But some of it sank it, anyway.
There was a stretch in there, with the "Paths of Darkness" series, where things just seemed kinda "blah" to me. Things seemed to be growing stale, as you said, Arcanus.
Somewhere along the way, I met Bob Salvatore, himself, over his website. Discussing the books with him helped me to work up the determination to continue reading the series.
And when I did, I found that I enjoyed it, again.
Looking back on it all, I have tried to analyze the Drizzt character in a way that makes sense out of the seeming contradictions or inconsistencies, or that explains away the odd repetition of certain themes. And I've tried to be ready to answer a lot of the criticisms, some of which allege that Drizzt is a perfect paladin and boring in his perfect little life, or some such.
That has led me to re-read the books with a mind towards Drizzt's psyche at any given time, moreso than toward the big action plot of any particular book. I have really tried to examine his personality and character, and what carries over from book to another, or one mini-series to another. I've looked for a through-line behind all of it, not really knowing if there was one to be found, or if I was unconsciously trying to impose some greater degree of sense on the story than what was actually there.
I now see Drizzt as a very flawed, very scared individual, who only uses the Paladin facade to try to psyche himself into not feeling so scared, for a time. It's a conscious counterpart to his unconscious Hunter mode, which revels in the thrill of battle or the hunt, rather than belaboring the ethics of this kill or that one. Drizzt is trying to be a good guy, and writing volumes about that effort. But what really comes through to me, after all his adventuring and all his writing, is that he is still a very scared guy, deep down inside.
And so, more recently, he has consciously taken on a newer facade, in order to deal with his fears, and his pain. He is a tougher, meaner, more callous Drizzt--or so he tells us, and himself.
But he's still hurting.
And he has to figure out which emotion matters more to him, and which one should compel his actions to a greater degree: his fear of loving someone, because of the fear of losing them; or the fear of giving in to his darker emotions, and betraying that Paladin image and lifestyle that he tried so hard to foster and implement.
To me, that screams "soul"! The adventure stuff is background material, compared to that. The real story is what's going on with Drizzt.
And what has been going on with him, for all this time. It just isn't as simple and cut-and-dried as I always thought. That's what's making the series fun for me, all over again.
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For me it wasn't just about drizzt, it was about the other companions who shared his adventures. Most of these characters are now gone and the stories about this drow are much the worse for it.
I have always been a bigger Bruenor fan than a Drizzt fan.
But upon re-reading the stories, and my desire to find the through-line, I have become more intrigued with Drizzt's personal story. As much as it pains me to consider this and admit it, Drizzt is the star. He is the main event. I feel like I'm betraying me King or something by saying that! But it's true.
I rationalize this new Drizzt-centric POV by telling myself that if "they" ever make Drizzt movies and I am allowed to help, then they/we are going to have to streamline the story quite a lot and focus mostly on Drizzt's perspective through it all, anyway, instead of anybody else's. It's best to focus on him now, in preparation for that inevitable focus with my hoped-for future movies. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 20:30:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
What i dont like is that bob has failed to fill the void left by their absence. Drizzt just moves on from one place to the next, kills a few baddies and moves on again.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that for me, the stories have no soul.
I think the soul is Drizzt's tragic struggle. He's lost so much that he's afraid to really love anyone else. Instead, he has picked up some adventure party members whom he can't really ever get close to, because they've got walls up of their own, and he's just coasting. He's hurting inside, but right now, that's all he can motivate himself to do: just coast.
If you only read the stories on a quick, superficial level, then all you'll get is the so-so action that's been happening.
But if you pay attention, you'll see that Drizzt is messed up inside, right now. He's lying to everybody.
When will the truth really come out? And what will he do about it?
Bob' still building up the tension on that particular matter. But he'll probably blow the top [off] of it for us, soon enough!
EDIT: Oops, I missed a word, there! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 05 Feb 2013 20:48:12 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 20:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
But some of the fanboys of course come in and bash every other character who they deem inferior.
That is why you see a slightly annoyed tone when Drizzt is brought up.
But that ain't right, yo! That's the problem with Drizzt fanbois--not a problem with Drizzt. 
I don't like how a lot of people slavishly, robotically parroted their interpretations of stuff they had read in some of THO's posts earlier when I first joined Candlekeep, and how they basically tried to shoo me away for even asking questions, and then they got upset when I persisted, asking how they or Ed ever arrived at those particular answers, in light of other lore. There was a mindless infatuation with the cult of Ed that didn't make any sense, as well as undeserved disrespect for me as a Drizzt-loving newb.
That's alright. In the end, Ed had my back! 
(I wonder if he even remembers any of that, now?)
All of that was reason to dislike some of Ed's fans. It never even once made me consider thinking less of Ed, himself, or of his stories.
I've only read a few of his stories because I'm such a Drizzt nerd and I spend most of my fiction time compiling details about Bob's stories. There just isn't enough time to be an El-nerd, too, or whatever.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 21:03:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I always liked Drizzt - the whole continually conflicted thing is nice. I don't think he is presented as unbeatable - he's almost died numerous times and has had his butt saved by his buddies many more.
Exactly! He's been an excellent fighter, but he's also had some wonderful allies, and a helluvalotta luck!
Maybe for too long a time, he was presented as having too much good luck for some people's liking?
Well, he's not having such great luck, right now...
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There are several masters of Sorcere that could handle him,
Could you name some, please? I'm not aware of any.
He may have gotten the position because of his family connections. But he still has it now because he defends it, with skill and a vengeance.
Consider that Matron Triel Baenre was deposed by her own sister, Quenthel. So being First Matron Mother isn't all it's cracked up to be. And notice that while Quenthel was successful in her effort against Triel, she was not in her efforts against Gromph (see "WOTSQ").
Gromph deserves much respect, in his own right.
And remember, he has held his position and status for a lot longer than Triel held hers.
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and that is just looking at there one, relatively tiny city that could not even must up enough martial strength to take out Mithril Hall, which had no BIG spellhurler.
While I will grant you that even though she was temporarily blessed by Moradin himself, Stumpet Rakingclaw hardly ever qualified as a "BIG" spellcaster.
She was about, what, 4 feet, tops?
OK, moving on...
But don't forget that Lady Alustriel also joined in that fight. I believe she was the one who actually found fallen Stumpet out in the snow on top of the mountain. The High Lady should qualify as pretty "BIG", shouldn't she?
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If he was all that tough, his mother would be alive and his family would not be hurting as much as they are - oh and his daughter would not get away nearly so easily.
Gromph didn't leave Menzo in Siege of Darkness. That expedition to Mithral Hall was a matriarchal fool's errand, right from the very start. He knew better.
And so, he was not there to do anything to save his mother.
Remember who was, though? A glabrezu, with an antimagic stone from the balor Errtu.
And the same antimagic stone that temporarily, ever so briefly, exposed Matron Yvonnel to the wrath of King Bruenor could've just as easily exposed Gromph thereto, if he had ever been so foolish as to go messing around Clan Battlehammer's back door.
I wasn't aware that House Baenre was hurting all that much, in 4E. Matron Quenthel rules with an iron fist. And she's apparently leaving big brother Gromph alone. He's entertaining wild, fanciful notions from little brother Jarlaxle about archlich phylacteries and primordial cataclysms, and pretty much having a grand ol' time! 
Somehow, I just don't get the idea that Gromph's personal sense of well-being is all that directly tied to that of the particular female in the throne at the head of his house. He works with the matron mother, as he must. But he has a certain degree of independence from her, as well, both in practical and philosophical terms.
So we should not be so quick to infer Gromph weakness from matron mother or priestess weakness. Those are not the same animals, at all. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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the problem with drizzt
