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swifty
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
517 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  19:32:42  Show Profile  Visit swifty's Homepage Send swifty a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Having spent the best part of 6 years 'in the keep' I've noticed a certain disdain for drizzt and ras in general.whilst I'm not his biggest fan a new Salvatore novel is always a welcome addition.I just wondered whether some of the criticism he gets is down to the sheer popularity.after all I myself and no doubt plenty of people here have lambasted the buying public in making multi millionaires out of people like lady gaga and rihanna whilst are favorite cult figure goes unnoticed.anyway it would just be nice to have a bit of constructive feedback from you guys.

go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS.

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1822 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  19:45:29  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me it's really a question of whether I'd like to sit at a table with someone and have a drink and talk about the Realms, character development, or plot.

Some authors, the chance to do that would be like winning the lottery. Others, I would decline as politely as possible.

I'd definitely like to sit down with R. A. Salvatore and talk about all three of those subjects. Sure, maybe Drizzt is "overplayed" a bit, but that's really on WotC rather than the author... they're the ones who kept asking for another book because the last one sold so well. And Mr. Salvatore has several other characters who are intriguing/cool and shoulda seen more pages, like Ivan & Pikel, for instance. I also thought some of the Blingdenstone gnomes were pretty awesome.

It's all about the material the author comes up with, and the potential for development. Who cares if 10 million other people think it's great too? Or if everyone else hates it? The point for me is whether I think it's cool, and I think that's how everybody should evaluate pretty much everything out there. If you think it's awesome, dive into it.

If not, beat it into something that works better.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6618 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  19:55:35  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Candlekeepers are enamoured with superheroes, so I'll put it into a superhero context.

There actually isn't any real problem with Drizzt, he's actually done quite well for himself and gained massive popularity in and out of the Realms. The audience keeps buying Drizzt so the publisher keeps printing Drizzt. It's almost like a substance addiction, and I think it's ultimately just as destructive.

But imagine a comic book genre with only one or two superheroes. Always Superman, Superman replacing the superhero in every story. Nothing wrong with Superman in this example, indeed Superman as the "only" hero of every single comic book tale would be all the more epic, but the constant Superman focus would greatly diminish every other superhero. Drizzt is depicted as so epic that it's very difficult for other epic heroes of the Realms to be recognized. I think most of the online anti-Drizzt criticism is just sheep blindly following the cool hellraisers, but there are always those who avidly hate the character for whatever reason (even if just to antagonize Drizzt-lovers or "protest" against populist views).

[/Ayrik]
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Tasker Daze
Learned Scribe

80 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  20:25:28  Show Profile Send Tasker Daze a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dislike Drizzit because Im tired of reading about him. He's been in like 20 books. Its time for someone new.

Because of him we also hvae drow everywhere. Everything in the Relams is now Drizzit, drow, or Shades. I want more than that.

For or against something doesn't matter. Just don't be the hind-end of a rothe about it.
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe

USA
422 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  20:36:16  Show Profile Send Kris the Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ayrik,

While I see the point of your analogy, I personally have never thought of Drizzt as some sort of unbalanced uber man that sits astride the Realms like a colossus (to be a little overly colorful, Lol).

First, while he may (along with Elminster) dominate the best seller charts and appears in more published novels than probably any other Realms hero (or superhero if you like), his popularity isn't necessarily a bad thing because fantasy publishing isn't operating in an entirely zero sum universe. Sure, a casual fantasy reader might buy a Drizzt book instead of one by another Realms author because he or she sees it prominently displayed on the shelf at his local bookstore (or on his e-reader), but that doesn't preclude such a reader from later buying another novel set in the Realms because he or she enjoyed the story of Drizzt and the world in which his story is told. R.A. Salvatore does a pretty good job of writing about the Realms using the 'shared world' approach and respecting the people, places, and things created by others. If one likes Drizzt, nothing about the way in which he is written in any way discourages one from liking other stories set in the Realms.

Second, from an 'in game' perspective, while Drizzt is among the most talented fighters on the Realms, at the end of the day he isn't a world beater (or huge game imbalancer) because 1) he is just a fighter/ranger (that's a compliment, he doesn't try to be much more than what he excels at) and 2) he is fairly regionally limited.

There are a staggeringly HUGE number of characters in the Realms (villains and otherwise) much more powerful than Drizzt. Most of them are spell casters of course, but that's inherent in the very nature of a fantasy world. As someone who personally prefers wizards over all other classes, I have to admit R.A. Salvatore does an excellent good job of writing Drizzt within the limitations of his class. He's truly mighty in a conventional fight, but regularly falls short to other opponents who are possessed of powers (or approaches to combat) he lacks the diversity to counter. Superman has only the one weakness, and he rarely loses a fight!

In terms of Drizzt's world wide impact, it is generally minimal. Unlike Elminster (or other chosen, or Manshoon, or Vangey, or whomever) who very well might pop up just about anywhere fighting just about any foe, Drizzt generally tends to stay within the Silver Marches region of the North (above and below ground) and only rarely peeks his head out beyond it into the events of the wider world. If you ran a Waterdeep based campaign (not to mention a Dales, or Cormyr, or Moonshaes, or Calimshan, or...well you get the idea...) you'd have an excellent chance of Drizzt never ever ever crossing the paths of your players. If you want him off the playing field he is really easy to keep there.

Lastly, owing to the way Bob writes Drizzt, he's among the least 'pushy' or 'opinionated' heroes you are ever likely to encounter. While he realizes he's a pretty tough dude, his life long philosophical struggle with the nature of free will makes it so he almost never puts himself into a position where he's bossing other people around and telling them what to do, even in combat! If your PCs should ever have the occasion to run into him, I'd think he'd be far more likely to aid them with a request they made in a way they asked for such help (provided it meets with his internal moral compass of course) than to suggest a course of action to them. He's just not the sort to want to be in charge (which is why I relate better to Ed's characters than to Bob's personally, Lol).

So, when you look at him with all that in mind, Drizzt is among the least invasive or domineering superheroes you are likely to run into. Try applying that analysis to Superman, Lol.

Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  20:42:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am a fan of his writing.

I am NOT a fan of what his writing does to the Forgotten Realms.

I had a LOT more here but its serves no purpose. I'll just let the above comments stand on their own.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  21:01:56  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've told Bob that if a Drizzt movie gets made, they should include on the DVD a special feature in which people are interviewed and asked, "What makes Drizzt cool?", or "Why does Drizzt suck?", and then examine how widely their answers vary. It's interesting to see how the character can be so popular and have such staying power, and yet still inspire such outspoken criticism and dismissal. The feature wouldn't necessarily need to drive toward any conclusion. Just illustrating the dichotomy in real fans' own vivid words should be interesting enough. But if the piece did ultimately lean toward ridiculing and poking fun at the haters, I wouldn't be too disappointed!

I've brainstormed some possible explanations for the hate, based on my understanding of people's negative comments here and elsewhere.

Jealousy of Drizzt's and Bob's success, in relation to other characters/authors.

Disestablishmentarianism/antipopulism: the idea that it's cool or noble to get digs in on whatever's the standard or is popular.

Bandwagon hate.

Overexposure of Drizzt in Realms media. Why was he on The Grand History of the Realms, when he really hasn't even been a part of that history for all that long, and hasn't had that much of an impact on it, either?

The notion that early Drizzt stories were childishly simplistic fluff, coupled with growing up and wanting to distance oneself from perceived-as-embarrassing memories of such alleged childishness.

Rules-hidebound gamers, who resent Bob for never having found a rule or paradigm that he couldn't bend or break. Thematically conservative conformists who simply don't appreciate someone who writes in a shared world but thinks outside the box on a regular basis and practically flaunts it. Why join a club and them test practically every rule of said organization?

The idea that his long track record of getting away with it indicates some sort of special treatment or leniency from TPTB. Special treatment reeks.

That's all that's coming to mind, right now.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6618 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  21:29:11  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Kris the Grey

... from an 'in game' perspective, while Drizzt is among the most talented fighters on the Realms, at the end of the day he isn't a world beater (or huge game imbalancer) because 1) he is just a fighter/ranger (that's a compliment, he doesn't try to be much more than what he excels at) and 2) he is fairly regionally limited.

I agree with everything you've said, Kris, but while Drizzt is a minor fixture in the Realms game setting, he is an overwhelmingly dominant figure in the Realms novel setting. Many people are not really interested in other "important" characters from the Realms, unless they happen to interact in some way with Drizzt.

[/Ayrik]
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2013 :  22:22:53  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yet the only reason he IS so "important" in the novels, is because he IS so popular. And really, he's not that important in the novels, either. He just gets a lot more "air time". He's never single-handedly defeated an empire or destroyed a city, or killed a dragon. (the only ones he's ever fought, he's always had allies who helped substantially, and in most cases, others landed the killing blow, NOT Drizzt.) In fact, he's never been much more than an elite shock-trooper type participant in most of the battles he has fought. Sure, he's a powerhouse in one-on-one battles against dangerous enemies, and he's great against multitudes of low-level foes, but when it comes to earth-shattering world-changers, he's NOT one of those.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1822 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  00:41:11  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze

Because of him we also hvae drow everywhere. Everything in the Relams is now Drizzit, drow, or Shades. I want more than that.


I agree with the last sentence, but I don't think it's fair to blame the return of Shade or the presence of drow in the Elven Wood (elsewhere?) on Drizzt.

(...I hate having to delete great rants from the middle of posts, due to lack of relevance... but at least I saw it right?)

There does needs to be a more reasonable distribution of the heroes who actually get written about a lot. 20 books about Drizzt wouldn't be a big deal if there were 20 books about each of 20 other heroes as well.

There is an unfortunate trend toward hero-hate, though, which makes people ignore the diversity that does exist between well-chronicled heroes. As Kris already mentioned: Elminster. Totally different from Drizzt... and people hate both of them.

So... it's not really about diversity after all.
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
824 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  00:48:02  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I LOVE so many of Bob's characters, but Drizzt started to become boring to me shortly before the Sell Swords trilogy. Jarlaxle, Kimmuriel(!), Cadderly/Danica, Robillard, Regis and Artemis are much more interesting characters to me than Drizzt has become over 20 novels. I don't love dwarves myself but I think Bob writes about them as well as anyone.

As for Bob himself, some of his books are the best on the Realms ever written in my opinion (The Crystal Shard, Servant of the Shard, the Dark Elf trilogy, and Ghost King are all great). But the Thousand Orcs trilogy followed by Orc King was in my opinion very boring and really hard to get through 4 books in a row on orcs.

And yes, Drizzt's popularity has lead to way too many Dark Elf and Shade in the realms. When you take something rare, dark and cool and make it everywhere in the Realms..it loses the magic. But that's not Bob or Drizzt's fault.
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe

USA
422 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  01:08:41  Show Profile Send Kris the Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Ayrik - In my view, the people who aren't interested in reading about other important Realms characters unless they are interacting with Drizzt in some fashion are either: a) such casual Realms fans that us Realms junkies here at the Keep shouldn't lose a moments sleep worrying about their failure to expand their interest beyond Bob's books or b) just plain silly (or both). I happen to be a huge fan of Krynn as well as a huge Realms fan. I also love Raistlin, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a book where he isn't a character. If such fans are so myopic as to be unable to read about the legions of other Realms heroes, then that's their loss.

@Markustay - While I certainly respect your point of view (as you are one of the most committed and knowledgeable fans of things Realms around the Keep) and I am willing to grant that Bob's Realms certainly have a slightly different feel to them then Ed's (and others), I don't see how his contribution of people, places, and things has weakened the overall framework. As I said, Drizzt is the sort of character a heroic PC can go a lifetime never running into. Some of Bob's other characters seem to fit into Ed's core concept fairly well (for example, Bruenor and Regis are fairly prototypical dwarves and halflings respectively). I also enjoy Bob's handling of Alustriel (one of Ed's main babies). I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but I also got the impression that Ed and Bob got along well enough and enjoyed working together to expand Realms lore?

@Alystra - Exactly my point. You make an excellent argument and I'd forgotten that he didn't even land the killing blow on big baddies half the time. Drizzt's comfortable being a team player. Again, I'll take an ale (well, mead in my case) with El over an ale with Drizzt, but he's certainly a decent chap.

Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  01:17:11  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Kris.

To illustrate the point, thugh:
Icingdeath (the dragon, not the sword): killed by Wulfgar shattering a giant icicle with Aegis-Fang on top of him.

Shimmergloom: killed by Bruenor with Icingdeath (the sword).

Hephaestus: first killed by Jarlaxle, then trapped by Cadderly. Drizzt helped in the second battle, but wasn't even present for the first one.

Errtu: banished by Drizzt twice, but not without help the second time.

Nameless(?) wizard in Exile: killed by Clacker, while Drizzt just stood there too stunned to move....

And there are many others.


The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3496 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  01:53:47  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze


Because of him we also hvae drow everywhere. Everything in the Relams is now Drizzit, drow, or Shades.


quote:
Originally posted by Seravin


And yes, Drizzt's popularity has lead to way too many Dark Elf and Shade in the realms. When you take something rare, dark and cool and make it everywhere in the Realms..it loses the magic. But that's not Bob or Drizzt's fault.


For the life of me, I really don't understand these statements? I read a lot of FR novels and rarely do I come across Drow protagonists and most of the drow antagonists are in Drizzt books. I also checked some of the more noteworthy NPCs and Villians in the Realms and, well.....there aren't that many drow there either. Shades have been a more center-stage role because of their Return and it's strong impacts on a very popular regon of Faerūn. But really, where is this supposed proliferation of Drow and Shades coming from?

It's possible, I suppose, that there have been an influx of Drow/Shade characters at Living FR events because there are rules for them as PC (and not broken ones either) and perhaps that might mean a stronger presence in Orgainized play. But aside from that, I don't see it.

Also, why is it BAD that there are more drow or shades running round in the "game" (non-canon games at that)?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
824 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  02:21:40  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/drow.aspx#dnd/drow/main/3

Drow are the main focus of the Realms right now, are you trying to say they aren't, Diffan? I'm not following you.
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
824 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  02:26:59  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aside from Rise of the Underdark; I also don't think one of the Seven Sisters would have been a dark elf, nor more recently Elminster put in a drow body in most of Elminster Enraged, if not for Drizzt's popularity. But that's just me...
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1822 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  02:53:09  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unless I'm missing something, Rise of the Underdark thing was 4e. And I recall seeing something somewhere that they're going to be making a full retreat from the drow-on-the-surface thing in 5e... wish I could recall where that was suggested. But maybe I'm totally misremembering...

Qilue was always described as extremely different from the other Sisters; I think she was perhaps intended to be a drow from the beginning. I don't know about Elminster being in a drow body. Both of those are questions for Ed, if they hasn't already been addressed.
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
824 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  03:11:20  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Qilue was never mentioned in the 1st edition era (someone please prove me wrong and show me a reference to her in 1st edition--the other 6 sisters are all there even Laeral) and in my opinion didn't exist (at least as a drow) until after Drizzt became popular with the Icewind Dale trilogy. Drizzt was the first good aligned drow and then came the clones...

Yes Rise of the Underdark is 4e. We're in the 4edition. That's the point. Here's the latest marketing ploy for the Forgotten Realms MMORPG. It doesn't sound like they're moving away from the drow on that end of things, for only $200 you can be a Hero of the North:
http://nw.perfectworld.com/founderspack/hero
"Only Heroes of the North will receive exclusive access to the MENZOBERRANZAN RENEGADE a unique playable race armed with the "Faerie Fire" racial ability and tattoo cosmetic option. Like the legendary ranger Drizzt Do'Urden, explore the realm of Faerūn as a Drow exiled from the Dark Elf stronghold of Menzoberranzan, City of Intrigue."

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BlackAce
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
345 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  03:42:41  Show Profile Send BlackAce a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not much to add that hasn't been said. I'm a big fan of Bob's writing but never really took to Drizzt (too Emo), or any of the Companions for that matter, it was the Deudermont's and Jarlaxle's that caught my eye and kept me interested. I think I finally lost interest with The Thousand Orcs, mainly because it had started to feel same old, same old by then.

The best backstories are longer than a sentence and shorter than a page.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3496 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  03:46:34  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/drow.aspx#dnd/drow/main/3

Drow are the main focus of the Realms right now, are you trying to say they aren't, Diffan? I'm not following you.



It appears to be an adventure-arch for Living Forgotten Realms, D&D:Lair Assault, and D&D:Encounter plus some content for video games. But this "story arch" is more about fighting Drow and driving them back into the shadows as a whole. Sounds like fun, to be honest. Besides, this isn't the first time they (the drow) have assaulted the surface either. And no one is saying this has to happen in people's home campaigns either. This adventure current plot doesn't mean 1,000,000 Drow on the surface with every single party including 2 or 3 non-Evil aligned Drow.

What I think people don't like is when a player attempts to play a Drow that's anything outside of Chaotic/Neutral Evil in a non-evil based game. This instantly lables them a "Drizzt Clone" and they get harassed by it. Simply put, just say "No" to Drow PCs in our games unless they want to be persecuted by the majority of surface-dwelling people.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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BlackAce
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
345 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  03:49:15  Show Profile Send BlackAce a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eh, Drow / Dark Elves have been thematically popular longer than Drizzt's been around. They're like the fantasy equivalent of the Ventrue/Toreador vampire types that litter popular culture right now; Props for legions of unimaginative and socially inadequate teenagers dreaming of being cool.

The best backstories are longer than a sentence and shorter than a page.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2231 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  03:57:00  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I got started with the Drizzt books, but now I encourage people who have only read Drizzt to read other FR novels as well. I love Drizzt, and I keep up with the novels, but the books have gone downhill, IMO. That, however, is just me. Some like the new Drizzt.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6618 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  03:58:24  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That marketing ploy is the same idea as handing out collectible prizes to Kickstarter donors or convention attendees, it's advertising hype, no big deal unless you're a producer or fan of the content. Yes, Wizbro is pushing a large drow project right now. But it's not exclusive, they're also pushing other large projects. There are alternatives for people who aren't interested in drow.

And honestly, I don't fault them for supplying the demand, selling the product people want to buy. I like to pretend that the Realms products I do like have been funded in good part by revenue from the mountain of Drizzt books I refuse to climb.

Aside from this current marketing project about Drow ... I repeat Diffan's question: beyond Drizzt, where exactly are all these offending drow being published? Sure, I see plenty of (mostly young) players roll up Drizzt-clones galore, just as they roll up Lawful Stupid square-chinned Paladins galore. But I'm not seeing the trope flood novels and game products, Drizzt is always around (and I mislike the little emo, personally) but he's only big enough to cover a handful of pages outside of novels dedicated to him.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Jan 2013 04:00:33
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  04:18:52  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't recall reading anything about 3E's design methodology wanting to incorporate Shadovar into the Realms because "they're like drow."

To me "Shades are everywhere! Argh!" has always been more of a complaint-type internet meme tossed out by people that liked the Realms without Shade in it, as opposed to a complaint that Shade was taking up too much screen time in products.

That and I never observed a similar gamer attraction making players want to run Shadovar PCs like you get with players wanting Drow PCs. Anyone notice anything different in their 3E games?

I agree that Drow are popular, but that's because Drow are popular. Drizzt got the ball rolling, sure, but (for me at least) from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting onward the Drow have been carrying their own weight: from their surface activities in the FRCS, to that wonderful meat grinder of an adventure City of the Spider Queen (I say "meat grinder" in a good way; it really was a PC-destroying/make them feel good when they win kind of adventure) to the War of the Spider Queen series (2002-2005--I read the first two, couldn't finish the series) to Rise of the Underdark (erm...2012 to now? --I haven't read or purchased anything for this; it's been all Eye on the Realms articles and mostly Ed Greenwood novels for me--with, incidentally, no Drow and one or two mentions of Shade and Shadovar), Drow have stood apart from Drizzt and been good for a few years worth of product effort along with all the other products on the side that WotC produced at the same time.

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Aside from Rise of the Underdark; I also don't think one of the Seven Sisters would have been a dark elf, nor more recently Elminster put in a drow body in most of Elminster Enraged, if not for Drizzt's popularity. But that's just me...
Yep, it's just you.

From page 19 of this shelf:

quote:
Hi, all.
As there seemed to be so much consternation on the part of some scribes about this, I asked Ed directly about connections between ELMINSTER ENRAGED and the Rise of the Underdark, and here's his reply:

None whatsoever.
When plotting EE, I knew nothing about the Rise of the Underdark (which many not even have existed as a publisher-adopted idea back then). Wizards approved my novel plot, of course, but that doesn't mean the specific staff members doing the approving then are the same staffers guiding the Rise of the Underdark now.
If I was doing marketing, I would probably do just as they've done: play up Elminster becoming a drow. That doesn't mean that's really what the book is about. I've always been far more interested in the characters and their life-journeys than about uber-plot.
So while everyone will have an opinion on whether or not the Rise, or EE, are good or that what happens in them is "right" or "best" for the Realms, it would be wrong to see them as connected, in some sort of dark, half-hidden conspiracy.
Because I never do those. :}
As you yourself know, my good Hooded Lady, It's much more fun to do it all out in the open, and watch the shocked responses.


Ahem. Well, yes, so it is.
So saith Ed. And there you have it.
Whatever you think of the Rise or of El becoming a drow, the two are NOT connected/orchestrated. (And yes, Markustay, I think it might just have been a joke on Ed's part, on one level, while being a serious part of his book on the other. El the living ash is, after all, bodyhunting...)
love to all,
THO


You may be on to something about the Seventh Sister. Anyone know Qilue's design origins?

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Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 31 Jan 2013 09:49:43
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  04:31:05  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was something about that here years ago, but I'll be darned if I remember where I saw it. IIRC, it might have been one of Ed's responses in the Ask Ed thread, and mentioned that he simply chose a drow in order to make her stand out and to be more mysterious- or something like that. Given the circumstances of her birth, that makes sense. She's the Chosen of TWO goddesses, after all!

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 31 Jan 2013 :  04:41:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

You may be on to something about the Seventh Sister. Anyone know Qilue's design origins?



quote:
The Seven Sisters were around in the Realms from the very beginning (1967), though at first I knew only that there were a large number of silver-haired, tall, powerful, beautiful she-siblings...the number didn't climb to seven until around 1978, and I deliberately left the seventh slot 'vacant,' as a 'loose end' for either TSR or individual DMs to fill in (by the way, folks: to DMs contemplating campaigns designed for longevity, continually building in 'loose ends' is a crucial design element; TSR has been building mine and their own added ones into complete products for some years, and such good scribes as Eric, George, Grant, and the Bryans have been give headaches aplenty in reconciling them).

In this case, I had it in the back of my head that the last and youngest would be something of a 'black sheep' (I was thinking 'tomboy') and so wrote that "the seventh was a dark disaster." Steven [Schend] pounced on that, and the name and race of Qilue are his creation (leaving me with the 'how did THAT happen?' explanation to do in THE SEVEN SISTERS :}). I think it's a great touch - just another example of how the Realms benefits by the inspired efforts of lots of creators, rather than just one. Steven deserves to take more than a few hard-earned bows for his sensitive and thoughtful work in the Realms...and I hereby salute him once more! Slonshal!


So Ed left her undescribed, Steven Schend came up with the idea of making her a drow, and then Ed had to explain it.

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