| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 19:09:23
|
I've got bit of a followup... Bolding mine.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Wooly mentioned one of the traditional Tormite slaying methods: running a traitor through with one's sword (not a tied-down or helpless traitor, it should be noted). Painful but not prolonged. As the sage Alaundo put it: "Torm is not a god of mercy. Torm is a god of vigilant duty. To be careless is to open a chink in armor."
So is the condemned traitor restrained at all? If not, how does the running-thru take place?
I'm also curious to know if there is some sort of trial, or if Torm just sends a sign that the guilty person is to be executed.
And is there any preference to the sword used or the person wielding it? Like, would a betrayed commander run the miscreant thru with the miscreant's own blade, or would the ranking priest grab the first blade handy, or what? (Or is that the usual situational thing, with preferences but few absolutes?) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 19:28:17
|
As I recall, Torm sends a definite sign: above-altar-vision/speech, perceivable by all, not just ranking clergy. So ultimate guilt is the judgment of the god, not of human clergy. But my memory of this is hazy, because it dates from 1979 (the last onstage-in-play instance of the Knights being present when Torm passed judgment), and a LOT has happened since then, so I'll have to check with Ed.
love,
THO |
|
|
|
paladinnicolas
Seeker
92 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 20:22:22
|
Dear THO, so it's my turn now :) There can certainly be no hard feelings. I actually enjoy discussing these ideas, and paraphrasing John Stuart Mill, the exchange of ideas lets us improve. English is not my first language, so I apologize if I make any mistakes. Concerning the disparity and even contradiction among followers of the same deity, I think that it is an aspect that certainly fosters many interesting role playing opportunities, and certainly think that it is interesting that some followers of Torm do believe in the swift and painful death of wrongdoers. Yet, precisely because of this, I don't like the idea that in canon it is stated as a universal dogma of all followers to believe in such a tenet, which is certainly controversial for the reasons I explained above. Furthermore, as a member of the Triad and thus at least an ally or more likely even a friend of Ilmater, it would be contradictory for the latter to get along with Torm if he truly does promote suffering, especially because it is also stated in canon that "[h]e is angered by cruelty and those who inflict suffering, particularly upon children and young creatures in general." For Torm to command the intentional infliction of suffering would be an act frowned upon by Ilmater, even angering him. If it is considered that Ilmater tended to advise Tyr to moderate justice by taking into account mercy, and if Ilmater has mostly (until 4e) had a superior rank than Torm, it is reasonable to expect that Torm would not adopt the approach mentioned. Thus, I accept that some Tormites may adopt the view I dislike a lawful good deity having, but do not think that it should have been included as a universal dogma (having done the opposite and mentioning as the belief of some, perhaps extremist, followers would be actually more interesting in my humble point of view).
Lastly, it is actually inevitable to see things at least partially from our prism, as studies in anthropology show (especially concerning a fictional land), but the opposite is also true, that sometimes those extraneous viewpoints clarify or identify things that those who live in the examined context do not consider.
Alas, this is another lengthy answer, but as I said, I love talking about this (perhaps my lawyer and researcher backgrounds have to do with it). Thanks again! |
Edited by - paladinnicolas on 11 Apr 2013 20:23:16 |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 21:46:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ze
Why are you ruling out the possibility that Kara was a Ruldegost and Alaerik, of unnoble origins, took the noble House surname when they married?
Because this:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
by the time Alaerik became head of the house upon the death of his father Norond
...means that Alaerik was the heir of the family and Kara married into her current role.
I too would be interested in seeing others' suggestions for birth dates, of these NPCs and any others. Certainly in another thread, so that others can weigh in without cluttering up the Q&A thread. 
I also have another addendum to my earlier questions, this one regarding the agents of Alaerik's demise.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The widowed (Lord Alaerik Ruldegost died in 1353 DR, poisoned by an unknown intruder probably hired by a noble or guild trade rival)
On page 19 of my much-loved and well-worn copy of the Cyclopedia of the Realms, under the mercenary adventuring band called The Four, it mentions that they were recently expelled from Waterdeep by Khelben for indulging in a string of paid assassinations-of-nobles. Was Alaerik one of their victims? The timing fits. Of course, it's entirely possible/likely that others were performing similar work at the same time, and Alaerik might have been the sole target of some jealous/angry individual. But now I'm wondering if Ed has written out a specific hit list for this group, or if it never became necessary because the Knights' interests lay elsewhere. If there is a list, is it possible to share it here?  |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 21:57:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by paladinnicolas
So far I have been unlucky with my questions to Ed
Just my two cents about this bit in particular, partly because I think you're not alone in this situation.
The questions that get answered quickly are the easy ones. And they're great because they swiftly increase the body of lore that's available to all of us.
The questions that take the longest to answer are more difficult. Not because of NDAs, because "NDA, sorry" is a quick response too. They take longer because they require either Ed, THO, or both, to dig through dustier notebooks (whether made of paper or memory) and these are insightful and excellent questions. They may take longer, but they're (in my opinion) the most important... because the stuff that WotC is asking Ed to write about is the stuff that he has immediately at hand (and is most likely to be NDA, but either way it's a quick answer). If he has to go looking for it, or generate new lore on the spot, then it probably won't see print if nobody asks a question about it.
tl;dr: feel good about your questions in any case, but feel best about the ones that take longer to answer. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 22:37:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by paladinnicolas
Dear THO, so it's my turn now :) There can certainly be no hard feelings. I actually enjoy discussing these ideas, and paraphrasing John Stuart Mill, the exchange of ideas lets us improve. English is not my first language, so I apologize if I make any mistakes. Concerning the disparity and even contradiction among followers of the same deity, I think that it is an aspect that certainly fosters many interesting role playing opportunities, and certainly think that it is interesting that some followers of Torm do believe in the swift and painful death of wrongdoers. Yet, precisely because of this, I don't like the idea that in canon it is stated as a universal dogma of all followers to believe in such a tenet, which is certainly controversial for the reasons I explained above. Furthermore, as a member of the Triad and thus at least an ally or more likely even a friend of Ilmater, it would be contradictory for the latter to get along with Torm if he truly does promote suffering, especially because it is also stated in canon that "[h]e is angered by cruelty and those who inflict suffering, particularly upon children and young creatures in general." For Torm to command the intentional infliction of suffering would be an act frowned upon by Ilmater, even angering him. If it is considered that Ilmater tended to advise Tyr to moderate justice by taking into account mercy, and if Ilmater has mostly (until 4e) had a superior rank than Torm, it is reasonable to expect that Torm would not adopt the approach mentioned. Thus, I accept that some Tormites may adopt the view I dislike a lawful good deity having, but do not think that it should have been included as a universal dogma (having done the opposite and mentioning as the belief of some, perhaps extremist, followers would be actually more interesting in my humble point of view).
Lastly, it is actually inevitable to see things at least partially from our prism, as studies in anthropology show (especially concerning a fictional land), but the opposite is also true, that sometimes those extraneous viewpoints clarify or identify things that those who live in the examined context do not consider.
Alas, this is another lengthy answer, but as I said, I love talking about this (perhaps my lawyer and researcher backgrounds have to do with it). Thanks again!
Ah, but Torm doesn't order excessive pain or torture, and he does order a quick death. So any suffering is over in short order.
And Ilmater is more about those who are oppressed, who are unjust recipients of suffering. He is also LG, and is not cool with certain things -- he can actually be motivated to violence, per Faiths & Avatars.
So Ilmy would likely consider the execution of a traitor to be a regrettable necessity -- and maybe not even that, if the betrayal caused widespread pain and suffering.
Torm, Tyr, and Ilmater are like three best friends. They may not fully agree with each other's viewpoints, but they respect those views, see some validity to them, and won't step on each other's toes without very good reason. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 03:22:38
|
I missed this earlier. My thanks, as always, to Ed and the Lady Hooded One.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Sage, re. these from you about the Starflame: "Does it have the collective authority to punish deliberately abusive mages who shirk the laws of various rulers and such? Do any cities/rulers actively support the Starflame within their areas of influence?"
I just talked to Ed, and he mentioned:
Punishment only consists of expelling individuals from Starflame deliberations and banning them from joining or rejoining (until specific redresses made), and warning Starflame members of bad conduct so they know to be wary of certain individuals. Rulers who have cited Starflame information and decisions publicly include those of Telflamm, Westgate, and Memnon, but the public doesn't know if "support" in any of these places extends any farther than that.
A slight further query... What about the support the public DOESN'T know about? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 03:24:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
As I recall, Torm sends a definite sign: above-altar-vision/speech, perceivable by all, not just ranking clergy. So ultimate guilt is the judgment of the god, not of human clergy. But my memory of this is hazy, because it dates from 1979 (the last onstage-in-play instance of the Knights being present when Torm passed judgment), and a LOT has happened since then, so I'll have to check with Ed.
love,
THO
Have the Knights had any direct dealings with Torm since that time, or has it just been through his clergy? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 18:13:46
|
Tantam All
Ed the players in my ongoing campaign are looking for someone to do some pargeting on their up country Cormyte mansions and towers (in and around Thunderstone).
Is pargeting a traditional craft in Cormyr and are there any well known firms/individual that undertake such work?
I am assuming that there are rules and regulations on exactly what can be portrayed on the buildings as well? (the usual heraldry rules?)
Many thanks
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 18:22:28
|
Hello All,
Ed, following up on you Noble Investments article from Forging the Realms, I'm curious to know what are the organized means, if any, in modern day Cormyr that nobles utilize to "get the word out" that they're hiring adventurers?
I noted in your article the point about adventurers visiting places nobles go to, but is this the only way?
Just curious if there aren't broadsheets mentioning "employment opportunities" or perhaps a smart noble or merchant has contacts within the Royal Court that allow them to learn who's on the rolls of chartered adventurers--information which they sell to nobles in need of adventurers.
Thank you very much. That was a great article. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 15:13:35
|
Dear Ed Greenwood,
I am curious about human eye colors in the Realms. While the 3rd Edition book "Races of Faerun" highlights the eye colors in some of the ethnicities of the human races presented, they always note the "normal" human range of eye color (blue, green, brown, and all shades of them).
However, according to the 3rd Edition "Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting" book, on page 10, there is a passage written by "Olram Faravaerr, Merchant of Mintarn" that point out a much broader range of human eye colors. Heartlanders, with Southern blood, are said to actually have yellow or orange eye colors. (So, I assume this means some Calishites, Chondathans, and Tethyrians correct?) And inhabitants of the Old Empires (so I assume the Mulan and maybe inhabitants of the Murghom and maybe some Shaarans) are known to have some people who have red eye colors.
I like the more varied eye color aspect than the normal "Earth" kind. Now on to my question; is it possible to have a bit more detail concerning the eye colors of the human inhabitants of Faerun (and possibly beyond, like those from the Hordelands, Kara-Tur, etc.)? |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 16:16:13
|
Good question, Razz. I suspect, from what Ed's said to me in the past, that he'll be telling you that all eye hues can be encountered just about anywhere (after all, the Princes of Shade have eyes of many gem and metal hues, and are just Netherese who "went away" for many, many years while their fellow Netherese scattered all over the Realms and interbred with others...so the genes for those eye hues might well be encountered just about anywhere). However, we'll await Ed's reply, when he has time to make it. Busy, busy boy right now, as usual...
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 18:27:13
|
Just wanted to say that this scrolls questions keep getting better and better. I love you all for all of it.
My humble thanks to all scribes and Ed and THO in particular. So many hours of cool stuff can be found herein. Its much appreciated.
*hugs* |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 19:13:49
|
Hugs right back, Bladewind.
You're very, very welcome.
I sometimes feel guilty for having roped Ed into this non-paying gig, when he has so many demands on his time.
But he genuinely enjoys explaining Realmslore, creating new Realmslore, and being helpful, so I hope he continues it for years upon years to come.
He's one of the nicest, kindest, most generous people I know, and I just hope scribes will be patient with him - - because he's also one of the busiest and most overworked people I know. Juggling a day job, family demands, the usual "life" stuff we all deal with, volunteer/civic work, and a writing/game designing workload about triple what most writers manage.
And he's FAR from finished with the Realms. It's his life work, so as long as he's alive...
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 22:47:18
|
Hi Tho hi Ed,
the latest thoughts of myself have been around the role of the females in hobgpblin tribes in fserun in general.
I was asuming that females are traditionally seen as homekeepers and caretakers for the tribe, while the males do tasks which include personal risks and fighting etc. what is leaving me to the question as follows:
are hobgoblin females accepted in the ranks of the warriors if they proove to have the necessary skills or are they kept away from the fighting so as not to emdanger the future of the tribe as a whole?
edit:
sorry for the terrible spelling, but three hobgoblin beers left me a bit tired ;) , yes there is actually a hobgoblin beer brand.
already looking forward to the reply.  |
Edited by - Jakuta Khan on 13 Apr 2013 22:49:55 |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 00:51:42
|
Heh. Ed and I are both familiar with Hobgoblin beer. And Red Witch and several other brews from the same source.
Jakuta Khan, in many hobgoblin societies, females are the matriarchs (heads of families and yes, homekeepers and financial and nursing carekeepers), while males hunt, patrol, and fight, but these are stereotypes that often break down in individual cases.
Let me quote Ed here:
Many hobgoblin females are veteran scouts and battlefield leaders (the equivalent of real-world NCOs and higher officers), and serve in these roles AND as they get older become the trainers of younger male and female hobgoblins to succeed them in these same roles.
Matriarchs (and patriarchs) are constantly making decisions as to which males and females of the tribe shall be withdrawn from risk (sent elsewhere, left as garrison or escorts of younglings away from danger) so as to make the survival of the tribe most likely. Overcoming the urge to fight in favor of skulking away to fight another day is one of the chief skills wiser and older hobgoblins master (i.e. "overcoming urges").
So saith Ed. (Who has also given similar answers in these threads here at the Keep before, if my memory doesn't fail me.)
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 08:26:12
|
Dear Ed and THO, does Malcanthet the Queen of Succubi and demon lord now serves Asmodeus? I mean being a succubus does that make her a devil? or she plays both sides?(demons and devils) Last i know she was current a lord of a layer in the Abyss...
(Hope you can answer without running into the dreaded N'DA demon, and Thanks!) |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 20:58:53
|
I was listening to a particularly old tape of notes of mine, searching for some element I recorded on Mageling rank structure and manners in the east and came across a question that I came up with when reading the Temptation of Elmenster, which I was reading at the time. To place the question in context, I first give this brief exert:
“Elenshaer had followed a common elf mages' practice. He'd set down the crowning part of the casting on another paper, kept elsewhere. His abode would have held thousands of such papers, with Elenshaer's memory as the only link of what paper went with which. There'd even been a rogue mage in the City of Song, Twillist, who'd sought power by pilfering such "ends" of spells, trading them to young apprentices and others eager for more knowledge and power in exchange for lesser, but whole, magics.
The missing ending was almost obvious to a mage who'd had a hand in crafting mythals and studied with Cormanthan elves. A summation or linking bridge, probably "Tanaethaert shurruna rae," a shaping gesture...thus...mirrored immediately and incorporated into the incantation with the utterance of "Rahrada," then the declaration that would make the hook recede into the ward-weave and give its caster control of the spell effects it brought with it: "Dannaras ouuhilim rabreivra, tonneth ootaha la, tabras torren ouliirym torrin, dalarabban yultah." A concluding gesture... thus...and it would be done.
He'd spoken those words aloud, though near-soundlessly, and was startled when something spun into being in the air before him, a little more than the length of his hand above Elenshaer's incomplete spell.”
At the time, and even more so now, this seems to be a full Imperative conjunction, or a logical system (I.E. a string of declarations, particularly commands, are conjuned by an if and only if section. The joining system serving both as the main controller for the string, and for the full argument in which it is either inserted, or is constructed around); to put this another way, does Elven magic follow logical systems?
This goes beyond the simple question, does magic follow the concept that any complex system must be by it’s nature a follower of some sort of patern, the more complex the system, the greater the probability that the system is influenced by said pattern. This then leads to my next question, which I am afraid is perhaps something that shouldn’t be answered, and I might be a bit crude in phrasing it in such simple terms, but, which has greater influence on the two systems, Mystra onto the Weave, or the Weave onto Mystra?
Each is of course a series of complex systems in their own right: Mystra, being a mortal Midnight, and the weave, being essentially the force that makes magic possible. I appreciate your time, respectfully, Sightless.
|
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
|
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 23:25:07
|
Dear Tho, dear Ed,
funny you know these beers, actually not very surprising, though.
I am officially importing the beer range into the territory of Germany ;) that is my job >( among other beers and spirits ).
To your reply:
As always very enlightening, thanks a lot for this!!
And you are right, I have asked a similar question as the recent one, but on a different approach, and also not after the influence of the Hobgoblins of the Wychwood!!
Best
Jakuta Khan |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 23:37:45
|
Hi Ed and THO,
If there was a dwarf hold in the Storm Horns, northwest of Eveningstar and they wished to trade weapons and other goods, would they barge down the Starwater to Eveningstar and offload their goods and head to Arabel? Would they simply set up shop in Eveningstar? Could they ride barges all the way down from the Eveningstar area to Marsember? If this is possible, how long do you think barge traffic would take? I was curious as to how you think this type of trade would operate.
Thank you both. :) |
Edited by - Eilserus on 14 Apr 2013 23:43:14 |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 23:51:41
|
Heh. I believe there IS a small and well-hidden dwarf hold in the Stormhorns, and as they want to remain hidden, they travel underground to emerge on the surface near the Bridge of Fallen Men, and journey openly overland on the trade-roads from there, so as to pose as dwarves who've come from elsewhere via surface routes.
As for barging...Ed will of course furnish a proper answer, but as a longtime player in a campaign with Ed as the DM, yes, barges do travel upriver as far north as the east-west traderoad bridge across the river in Eveningstar...but they have to be very SMALL barges because the channel is both shallow and narrow/sharp-bending in places (moved more with poles than with oars, the King's Forest making towing with draft beasts nigh-impossible until much farther south). Ed described such barges in play.
We'll have to await his reply for more...
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 01:13:34
|
Thanks for the quick answer THO. :)
As a quick follow-up, aside from Mithril Hall and Thunderholme, what kind of ways do dwarves hide the entrances to their strongholds or mines? Without surface facing towers or defense points, does this make defending them more difficult?
Thanks again. :) |
|
|
|
paladinnicolas
Seeker
92 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 09:36:57
|
To continue with the discussion about Torm, Ilmater and the former's dogma of killing traitors and wrongdoers swiftly but with pain, I just found a source in canon that does point out that such a command would be contrary to the good alignment; and suggests that Torm, if he truly did hold to that tenet instead of it being something that the faithful wrongly ascribed to him, should have changed by now after the Spellplague at the very least, because of the need of balancing justice with mercy and Ilmater's advice (as I suggested). It is found in page 14 of the FR book Champions of Valor, where it is said that;
"[M]ercy and forgiveness [are] key elements of a truly good character. Extending mercy to a defeated opponent is something an evil character would never do, nor would an evil opponent truly forgive someone who wronged him, and as such those two acts define what is good behavior (the willingness to do something no evil creature would consider the right response). Again, looking at the deities, Ilmater is a powerful deity who embodies perseverance and suffering; he more than any other knows what horrors evil can perform, but he endures by holding onto the hope that eventually evil hearts will turn to good, or, if need be, destroyed outright. While he is allied with Torm, a martial god of paladins, Ilmater’s superior is Tyr, god of justice, and part of true justice is knowing when a punishment is appropriate or excessive and when clemency is merited. In a world where truly evil gods walk the earth, the leader of the Harpers makes a peace agreement with the Zhentarim, and one of the land’s most famous heroes is a good-aligned dark elf, the desire to slay an enemy for revenge must always be questioned." |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 10:47:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by paladinnicolas
To continue with the discussion about Torm, Ilmater and the former's dogma of killing traitors and wrongdoers swiftly but with pain, I just found a source in canon that does point out that such a command would be contrary to the good alignment; and suggests that Torm, if he truly did hold to that tenet instead of it being something that the faithful wrongly ascribed to him, should have changed by now after the Spellplague at the very least, because of the need of balancing justice with mercy and Ilmater's advice (as I suggested). It is found in page 14 of the FR book Champions of Valor, where it is said that;
"[M]ercy and forgiveness [are] key elements of a truly good character. Extending mercy to a defeated opponent is something an evil character would never do, nor would an evil opponent truly forgive someone who wronged him, and as such those two acts define what is good behavior (the willingness to do something no evil creature would consider the right response). Again, looking at the deities, Ilmater is a powerful deity who embodies perseverance and suffering; he more than any other knows what horrors evil can perform, but he endures by holding onto the hope that eventually evil hearts will turn to good, or, if need be, destroyed outright. While he is allied with Torm, a martial god of paladins, Ilmater’s superior is Tyr, god of justice, and part of true justice is knowing when a punishment is appropriate or excessive and when clemency is merited. In a world where truly evil gods walk the earth, the leader of the Harpers makes a peace agreement with the Zhentarim, and one of the land’s most famous heroes is a good-aligned dark elf, the desire to slay an enemy for revenge must always be questioned."
I fail to see the issue. It says slaying for revenge is bad, but executing a traitor is seen by Torm as justice. This passage does not contradict that; it in fact does include a provision for the outright destruction of evil, which in Torm's view would include a betrayer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Apr 2013 10:48:24 |
|
|
|
paladinnicolas
Seeker
92 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 11:14:12
|
Yet, in my opinion, the passage does mention how mercy and compassion are important to good characters, and how simply executing (murdering, actually) someone who has behaved badly, especially if he can change or does not pose a threat if captured, may actually be an evil conduct. Moreover, it illustrates how the values of the Triad are to be understood in context and in light of the others, and so that duty is not blind (something Torm's dogma itself shows when allowing the change of wrong laws) and that punishment must take into account mercy and repentance (as shown by Ilmater's suggestions to Tyr). After all, I understand that there may be disagreements on the issue, which is fine (in fact, disparate interpretations by the faithful, as I said, are interesting in the game), but that a universal creed that puts forth the tenet of inflicting pain and killing all traitors seems actually evil. I would expect this perhaps from a lawful neutral deity as Helm, but Torm? Something that Eberron has is the idea of noble and merciful deities that combat evil with compassion towards the enemies (the Silver Flame), and the Triad ones could fill that role in the Realms (which many players, myself included, like)
As always, this is just my opinion, and I may well be wrong about Realms interpretation, so thanks for sharing your ideas and thoughts! |
Edited by - paladinnicolas on 15 Apr 2013 11:19:05 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 14:05:17
|
Folks, I'm inclined to ask that we keep the side-chatter to a minimum. Or, at the very least, take it to another scroll. It's becoming cluttered again, here, and I'm having a hard time picking out proper replies from Ed/THO.
Thanks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
paladinnicolas
Seeker
92 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 15:12:51
|
| You are completly right Sage, I apologize... I tend to get carried away with these discussions, which I enjoy. Sorry everyone |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 13:43:46
|
A brief question to add to my (probably still meagre) pile of questions for Ed.:
In the 3rd edition Lords of Darkness supplement, a Cyricist ritual called "Ritual of the Dark Flame" is described, with a result that the subject receives the ability to summon and use "black fire" in battle, powered by negative energy.
1) Is this an effectively unique ritual devised by Cyric and/or his priesthood?
2) Do other priesthoods have (or are they developing) similar rituals? I could see Selune and Lathander (and possibly Mystra) all possibly using ones based around positive energy instead of negative, for example.
3) Have other individuals outright copied the innovation to begin using it themselves?
4) What was the original purpose in developing the ability? Did it have anything at all to do with the silver fire and/or Cyric trying to copy it, even if it would only be a flawed and imperfect replication?
5) What other abilities/powers of comparable level have other priesthoods created? If this is too broad a question, then information on just Mystra, Kelemvor, Selune, Sune and Tyr would be fine (in that order if Ed would need to narrow it down further). Basically, the good aligned ones, or at least neutral aligned ones.
It seems like a very interesting ability/ritual, and I'd like to know more about it if possible. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 19:52:52
|
Hmmm. Dark flame in the Realms predates Cyric's ascension to godhood, so the answer to #1 must be no, and the answer to #2 must be yes.
Everything else must wait for Ed. Who is deep in the throes of taxes (due end of April in Canada, not mid-April) and in Realms fiction work.
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Questions for Ed Greenwood (2013)
Topic Locked
