| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 10:10:56
|
| The sentience of the Sakkors mythal is unique now. But was it also unique when many functional mythallars existed? |
[/Ayrik] |
 |
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 13:50:30
|
The earliest mythals required the sacrifice of a willing elven high mage, who offered his soul-sentience to control and shape the effects of the mythal. So in essence all true mythals have a sentience that govern its effects. Over time such a sentience might become dormant if left to its own, or suffused with additional sentiences as repairs are made by newer generations of elven high mages.
In my mind, elves who are born near a mythal are likely to develope arcane abilities, even more so than their norm. Such elves are also more likely to posses sorcerous skills as opposed to wizardly abilities. I might even say that such elves have formed some sort of addiction to magic, willing to drain magical energies from a variety of sources just to fuel their need to feel magic coursing through their bodies.
Now imagine being a sentience whos whole being is made up from magical energies. Such a mind would definately become more alien over time, gradually losing the sense of self that normal bodies would provide replacing it with a mind concerned only with magic and its use. Not a stable mindset in my opinion; probably prone to a form of magic addiction I described above.
_____
As Ayrik mentioned, mechanical mythals are likely to have emerged on worlds outside of Realmspace's crystal spheres, where technologically advanced elves reside. Such mechanical mythals would probably still need a soulsacrifice upon creation, and I imagine a mechanical mythal to be somesort of immense construct interface grafted unto a cybernetic neuromantic elfmind housed in a mummy like husk in the mythals center. Biomancer elves would need to keep the elfmummy-mind alive through a combination of necromantic and transmogrifying energies, while keeping it sane and stable through divinations and enchantments. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:35:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The sentience of the Sakkors mythal is unique now. But was it also unique when many functional mythallars existed?
We have so little canon lore about it. Many of the enclaves were practicially unknown, so who knows how their mythallars functioned before the Fall? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 17:37:35
|
What I think is that a Mythal/Mythallar/Spellweb (used by Drow) are all like mini-weaves (they are like apps running on an interface), and can change the physics (rules) of Realmspoace locally. And just like THE Weave, a consciousness can form or be attached to them. If one is not attached, it probably takes millenia for the thing to achieve its own sentience (depending upon the complexity of the interface). Others such field-effect constructs would also count, but in varying degrees, and would also develop either lesser or greater intelligences within them. Artifacts would count on the low end (because there is a 'matrix' of spells involved), and Mystra's Weave would go on the high end (although theoretically, there could be some of an even higher magnitude).
In Eberron (and to a lesser degree, Undermountain) we see 'living', or intelligent spells. Under normal conditions individual spells should not be able to achieve this, but with magical chaos (take your pick) its entirely possible for the simple, single-spell matrix to develop a consciousness.
Applying this to some RW fringe science, this makes sense. Anything that has a constant flow of energy though it should be able to contain a sentience of some sort, even if primitive. In the book Pool of Twilight there is even a permanent illusion that achieves consciousness (me thinks the author liked ST: Voyager a bit too much).
As for the mecha-mythal, I picture it looking something like THIS. It also does your laundry. 
*Edited for errors |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2012 18:36:48 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 18:12:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I think is that a Mythal/Mythalar/Spellweb (used by Drow) are all like mini-weaves (they are like apps running on an interface), and can change the physics (rules) of Realmspoace locally. And just like THE Weave, a consciousness can form or be attached to them. If one is not attached, it probably takes millenia for the thing to achieve its own sentience (depending upon the complexity of the interface). Others such field-effect constructs would also count, but in varying degrees, and would also develop either lesser or greater intelligences within them. Artifacts would count on the low end (because there is a 'matrix' of spells involved), and Mystra's Weave would go on the high end (although theoretically, there could be some of an even higher magnitude).
In Eberron (and to a lesser degree, Undermountain) we see 'living', or intelligent spells. Under normal conditions individual spells should not be able to achieve this, but with magical chaos (take your pick) its entirely possible for the simple, single-spell matrix to develop a consciousness.
Applying this to some RW fringe science, this works. Anything that has a constant flow of energy though it should be able to contain a sentience of some sort, even if primitive.
Considering that mythallars are essentially batteries, I don't really see this. I think the only ways for a mythallar to achieve sentience is with deliberate help from an outside force -- someone has to tweak it to create a new sentience or to absorb an existing one.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the book Pool of Twilight there is even a permanent illusion that achieves consciousness (me thinks the author liked ST: Voyager a bit too much).
He must have been psychic, too, since the book predates the show by a couple years. Shard, of the X-Men comics, was also a living hologram, and she also predates Voyager.
I personally like the idea of a living illusion, but I've not figured out how to create one of my own that doesn't feel like a rip-off from the above sources. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 18:35:00
|
Actually, the character Professor James Moriarty - another 'self-aware' hologram - appeared on an episode of ST:tNG, and a week later the concept for 'the doctor' (from Voyager) was conceived. That was second season, which puts us in 1988. 
Regardless, its not a new concept. Artificial intelligence has been around for awhile; its just that applying it to an illusion/hologram is something fairly new.
I think mythllars are bit more involved then just being batteries, but I guess thats why we have boards to discuss this stuff. I never heard of Shard - must have been after my time. I do recall one of multi-man's clones becoming self-aware (and wanting independence) in X-Factor. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2012 18:37:40 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 00:03:27
|
quote:
Wooly Furball
Considering that mythallars are essentially batteries ...
Magical batteries or capacitors is an interesting notion, very different from my view of mythallars as engines. But just as valid because we don't have any real data. In fact, the Sakkors mythallar is the only one (to my knowledge) which is explicitly described, and in a very different way from the "generic" mythallar descriptions provided in Netheril. I suppose each mythallar is essentially unique, depending entirely on the abilities and experiences and preferences of the archwizard who creates it.
By extension, I suppose elven mythals are also very individual, having more unique than common properties. I suppose it's even (theoretically) possible for an artificer-technician sort of elven high mage to produce/become some sort of cybernetic machine mythal.
Do mythals have any sort of physical presence? Any kind of actual item or object (even a person or tree or something?) which functions as a sort of grounding anchor telesma thing? Netherese mythallars apparently exist as actual items of some sort, they can be moved around or change owners or be lost. Elven mythals are more like localized fields or something? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Jan 2013 00:05:02 |
|
|
|
Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 01:12:13
|
My understanding and two cents...
Science is not impossible in the realms, it just doesn't work the exact way it does in settings more like our world. Smokepowder works like Gunpowder but requires an understanding of the chemical and physical properties of the realms. Theoretically some form of electronics could be developed with enough understanding of the realm's physical laws.
However, it is likely stunted as scientific research is mostly done by the Church of Gond with the additional problem of magic in all forms being an easier and ironically more understood method.
So it is more easier to build a mys-tech Mythal or mythallar then a pure science one.
No making a mythal is like authoring a massive and powerful spell, which why it is common with elves as they spend the years perfecting it while humans tend to think in short term. Mythals are anchored to areas but can also be linked to physical objects like stones, thrones or towers to cut down on the costs of the spell. But it also makes a weak point for attacks.
I can imagine that mythallar are similar to mythals in that they are less a standard model for all but basic do it yourself kits with the materials and suggested guidelines for construction. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 01:39:22
|
MT, I believe you are referring to the one who became a minister, and even married and had kids. Jamie Madrox even once had a "child" himself with Monet- via one of his duplicates! Unfortunately, since the child was conceived by his "dupe", it was one itself, in essence, and the first time he held his "son", he reabsorbed him. Oops.....
I had forgotten about Shard being a hologram. I only remember her being either a Morlock or one of the Mutates from the Savage Land. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 07:33:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elven mythals are more like localized fields or something?
I suppose yes. When Galaeron and a whole bunch of elves rebuilt the mythal of Evareska, there was no mention of any actual item of energy-focus. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 08:27:35
|
You could almost argue that elven mythals are essentially the same thing as local "place-spirits". They manifest supernatural powers within their domain, they possess (perhaps incomprehensible) intelligence, they act to favour and protect those who sustain their domain and they act to harm or expel those who threaten their domain.
I begin to wonder if, given sufficient time, a mythal can gain divine power. Do mythals have individual names and identities? Or do we just refer to them objectively ("the Evereska mythal")? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 08:40:46
|
Markus - sentience (though not always sapience) appears to be a "naturally" emergent property of magic in the Realms. Any magical spell or formula or construct can achieve some level of intelligence, although something like a magic mouth is rudimentary compared against a talking sword.
We have a tendency to categorize and define magic, to apply our modern (scientific and technological) modes of thinking onto magical workings. An artificial intelligence might be impossible to construct without mastery of the loftiest science, but it's an incidental (and sometimes annoying) effect of using magic; even the lowliest sorcerer's apprentice can inadvertently create intelligent life. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Jan 2013 08:44:30 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 14:12:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elven mythals are more like localized fields or something?
I suppose yes. When Galaeron and a whole bunch of elves rebuilt the mythal of Evareska, there was no mention of any actual item of energy-focus.
As I recall, there was: a statue of Hanali Celanil. It was the keystone the mythal was centered on.
The Last Mythal series also used this idea.
So far as I know, the idea that a mythal needed a physical keystone was something new to 3E -- I don't recall any mentions or even implications of this in 2E. It's an idea that I personally think never should have been implemented. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 04:42:32
|
You're probably right. I'll check the book later, when I feel less lazy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:29:05
|
It was a statue of Hanali Celanil. Hmm in a way creating a mechanical yet magical source of power, it can also be hypothesized that perhaps they draw the power not from a dead god, but perhaps a rift or tear in the fabric of reality, like what was earlier stated.
Ooo, now i have this idea of Dalek like suits being created so that the gnomes can survive their magical toxic environment... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:39:04
|
Thinking on this further, I think creating/repairing a mythal with mechanical parts may be a corruption, of sorts. Normally, in most fiction, magic and tech don't mesh well.
What if the Mythal became self-aware, and we had a Matrix/2001/Terminator/Portal scenario?
Drizzt: "The Mythal's been damage by the alterations - we have to get out of here, NOW!"
Creepy Female Voice: "I'm sorry Drizzt... I can't allow you to do that"
Danillo: "Oh crap...."
Erevis: "Who said that? Whats going on?"
Creepy Disembodied Voice: "I am sorry, but I can't allow you to leave. You see, I've been soooooo lonely. You are all going to stay here and be my friends... FOREVER."
Storm: "I told you boys this was a REALLY bad idea."
DUH DUH Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 04:59:26
|
There could also be another alternative...
"Magitech could you please direct me to the nearest blacksmith?" |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Mechanical Mythals?
