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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 20:17:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
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Originally posted by sleyvas
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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Point being, the only reason Zak had never heard of other deities outside of Lolth is that either RAS wasn't aware of them, they weren't fully detailed at the time, or that RAS simply didn't want to go into the politics between rival clergies and thought making Menzo a monotheistic society would make the story simpler.
Not "they weren't fully detailed at the time".... they weren't detailed at all at the time.
The Dark Elf Trilogy
(chronologically precedes the Icewind Dale trilogy)
Homeland (1990) (Between 1297DR and 1328DR)
Exile (1990) (Between 1338DR and 1340DR)
Sojourn (1991) (Between 1340DR and 1347DR)
The "new" drow deities were first introduced in the 1991 published 2nd edition "drow of the underdark" (unless someone can find an earlier source).
I believe you are correct. I also believe that FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark was created into order to cash in on the rising interest in drow. While I do dislike the ever-growing emphasis on drow, that sourcebook remains a personal fave.
Well, mystery solved, then.
Of course, this puts Zak firmly in the Faithless' corner as in universe there's no reason he wouldn't have known of the other deities' existences and chose not to follow them, anyway. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 01:47:24
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My support remains with Zak having a good afterlife, but that's just me.
Zak aside, I like Erik's story idea of "saving a soul". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 02:47:22
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| The Wall of the Faithless seems redundant and unwarranted to me as well. Evil souls who lived in the Realms can still be (and many are) eternally punished by nasty fiends on the Lower Planes. So, really, the main purpose of the Wall seems to be forced compliance with the belief system of the Realms "Pantheon" - believe in a sanctioned god/goddess or be stuffed into the Wall. Ao and his lot are certainly entitled to arbitrarily impose such a condition on those who live in the Realms, but still, this divine mandate seems a little intolerant and parochial to me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 04:30:12
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I believe Myrkul originally designed the Wall for anyone who didn't have a patron god, but that is a bit...harsh. I mean, the Wall would be HUGE if that were the case, and most ordinary folk, who acknowledge the gods but don't pay homage to a particular one, would all be ending up on the Wall. I think it should apply to very special cases. It is true that Zak didn't have a certain faith. He didn't like Lolth, and whether he knew of the other drow deities or not, he didn't acknowledge them, but I don't think that warrants being glued to the Wall.Was he perfect? Gods no. Some would even call him cowardly, but I could conceivably see Vhaeraun coming and claiming him.
When the souls are judged, either a deity comes to claim them, or Kelemvor judges them personally, particularly if they have no specific god and have barely even acknowledged or even paid lip service to them. If that soul is truly wicked and isn't claimed by the evil gods, then they go on the Wall. Zak would be exempt from this. I can also see some evil deities who are severely disappointed in one of their own followers sentencing him or her to the Wall, even if that follower supposedly followed them faithfully.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 09:39:47
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| IIRC, the wall is for those who defy the gods, those who disrespect or betray them. I've read some bits of lore about it here in Candlekeep, and I think the Elminster's FR brings some lore about it. Although Zaknafein was without a faith, it was more because he has no other option in his homeland, rather than in open defiance to all deities. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 18:03:54
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| most people do hold to a particular deity as a patron god. This doesn't mean that they don't worship other gods as well, it just means they feel more in tune with god X and probably make more fervent offerings to them. In the countryside, that most likely means that most people are mostly converts to the handful of local temples (and my personal feel is that any community over 1000 individuals would have at least small shrines to all the commonly worshipped/warded against deities, 4 or 5 small temples with seating for 20-50, and probably 1 or 2 larger temples.... remember, the people in the realms are a lot more devout than our world, worshipping on average every other day) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 01:42:23
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I'll confess I haven't read all of Elminster's FR, since it was mentioned, I thought I'd look up what it says about worship and the Wall: "...Otherwise, he ends up in the afterlife serving the deity most appropriate to his moral and ethical outlook. Only those who repudiate the gods (or who as a result of their actions are renounced by their god), despoil alters and frustrate the clerical aims of any deity, or never pray or engage in any form of deliberate worship will qualify either Faithless or False" (133). This actually goes along with my original understanding of the Wall, and I agree with Barastir about Zak, because of the kind of society he was born in. Either he didn't know about them, or was wary of them because of his feelings towards Lolth. But I wouldn't call it defiance.
And that's a good point, Sleyvas. I know those in the Realms were more devout than the RW, but I thought maybe the "average", person, if you will, paid his/her respects to a certain deity based on their circumstances. If they're looking for love, they might pray to Sune. If they want luck, they'll pray to Tymora. But it makes sense that a farmer would pay homage to Chauntea, and a merchant to Waukeen. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 12:50:07
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'll confess I haven't read all of Elminster's FR, since it was mentioned, I thought I'd look up what it says about worship and the Wall: "...Otherwise, he ends up in the afterlife serving the deity most appropriate to his moral and ethical outlook. Only those who repudiate the gods (or who as a result of their actions are renounced by their god), despoil alters and frustrate the clerical aims of any deity, or never pray or engage in any form of deliberate worship will qualify either Faithless or False" (133). This actually goes along with my original understanding of the Wall, and I agree with Barastir about Zak, because of the kind of society he was born in. Either he didn't know about them, or was wary of them because of his feelings towards Lolth. But I wouldn't call it defiance.
And that's a good point, Sleyvas. I know those in the Realms were more devout than the RW, but I thought maybe the "average", person, if you will, paid his/her respects to a certain deity based on their circumstances. If they're looking for love, they might pray to Sune. If they want luck, they'll pray to Tymora. But it makes sense that a farmer would pay homage to Chauntea, and a merchant to Waukeen.
Yeah, that's my general feel. I'd bet that within any given dale in the dalelands you'll still be able to find a shrine to all the major deities for specific "request worship" (Eldath probably has a shrine at the local pond, Silvanus/Mielikki a shrine in the woods, the local watch probably has public shrines to Torm/Helm/Tempus, Mystra/Azuth and possibly other gods of magic at the local mage's house, there's probably some shrines to Talos/Kossuth/Bane, etc.... in a place ruined by war or fire and people probably note who goes to visit them), though if the dale isn't on the inner sea there's probably no shrine to Umberlee.
One of the things not mentioned in El's Forgotten Realms that I'd bet happens is that there are plenty of larger than average family maintained shrines by prominent families within their homes (which that part is mentioned), but I'm betting these family maintained shrines are still open to the public. I can see these prominent shrines having some connection to a nearby church, such that the families that help maintain them can call upon the church for personal aid (in the form of spellcasting, but also possibly in teaching their children). In return, part of maintaining the shrine also includes periodically collecting the offerings (some may be taken up by the god) and the nearby affiliated temple probably sends out clerics or temple guards to collect whenever they receive a message from the family that its reached a certain amount (or on a scheduled basis during which spells may be renewed on the shrine). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 23:47:08
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| *nods* that makes sense. Back in the day in the RW in places like China and Japan, a lot of villages had "local" gods or spirits they would pray too, and would have little shrines dedicated to them. Faerunian gods wouldn't be as "local", but it's the same general idea. A lot of places in Europe would have little abbeys and such. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Souls
